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Date: 8/25/2003 1:15:00 PM
From Authorid: 35720
Why not?  |
Date: 8/25/2003 1:22:00 PM
From Authorid: 14909
yes they should be able to  |
Date: 8/25/2003 1:28:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
We're "lowering morals and values" by accepting gay people? *sniffs* What nonsense! Since when is the last time you heard of a gay person or a gay couple who abused or killed their child and then said "God told me to"? When is the last time a criminal commits a heinous crime, then proclaims: "It was because I was raised by a homosexual"? A person's PERSONAL choice of a life partner should not be the number #1 criteria for choosing a home for a child.  |
Date: 8/25/2003 1:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 36901
I think they should be able to. They would have to go through the same screening process as any other couple and if they were found to be stable, etc...(seeing as I've never adopted a child, I'm not too sure what all they look into before deciding if someone can adopt). I don't see a problem with it at all as long as the meet all the requirements or whatever you call them.  |
Date: 8/25/2003 1:40:00 PM
From Authorid: 13546
Yes, I believe they should be able to adopt children. Just because their sexual prefernce is different, does not mean they would not be good parents.   |
Date: 8/25/2003 2:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 13283
Even though I feel that gay parents may pull their adopted kids towards homosexuality a little bit , they should be able to adopt . Considering the situation I believe they should also be under a litte bit more scrutiny than regular parents . There has to be compromises on both sides . Homosexuality can be learned . Razzy aka  |
Date: 8/25/2003 2:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 33286
I agree with The Thinker lady. personally I think anyone that wants to have children should have to take psychological tests to see if they would be fit parents, I think all prospective parents should have to take classes on the subject, and I think children should not only be taught sex education in class, but have easy access to birth control without parental concent... but gays don't make any worse parents than anyone else and in fact may make better parents in a lot of cases  |
Date: 8/25/2003 2:52:00 PM
From Authorid: 12966
no the definately should NOT! Homosexuality is wrong and a child should not be raised in that kind of home. When a parent puts their child up for adoption they want their child to have a better life than they can provide, they wouldnt want their child raised by alcoholics or drug dealers, because they live morally wrong lives, homosexuality is also morally wrong  |
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Date: 8/25/2003 3:00:00 PM
From Authorid: 33286
there is one other thing that comes to my mind as well, prior to the last 10 years or so gays weren't adopting or having children of their own, so that means that all the gay people in existance were raised by STRAIGHT COUPLES...not by gays. so you could say that straight people raise more gay people than gays do. |
Date: 8/25/2003 3:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 62222
They should look carefully into the backgrounds of all people who adopt children, but their sexual preference should not be a reason to deny them. That's ridiculous, that's like saying I wouldn't let a priest volunteer at a half-way house because I'd be concerned he would molest the children simply because I heard another one did. It's Rubbish. <regretfulhalo>  |
Date: 8/25/2003 3:29:00 PM
From Authorid: 15394
LC, if they are loving good people, you would rather a child not have a home than let these loving people adopt them? wow... OF COURSE they should be able to adopt... wow... *shakes head*  |
Date: 8/25/2003 3:34:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
All research has shown that the children of gay parents do as well if not better than those raised by heterosexuals in school and on standardized tests. It has also shown that those children also adapt more easily to differences and culture and differences in people. There are already gay couples who are foster parents for HIV+ children, and the children in such care have time and again been shown to be better cared for than they were while in a heterosexual foster home. All that being true, then by all means, they should be allowed to adopt. I would much rahter see a child in a loving home, than being bounced from foster home to foster home, or even in an orphanage. For those who state homosexuality is immoral, prove it without use of your Bible.  |
Date: 8/25/2003 3:40:00 PM
From Authorid: 45630
They shouldn't be able to adopt children until they are allowed to marry. Cmon you've gotta crawl before you walk!  |
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Date: 8/25/2003 3:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 33286
I also get a little chuckle from the thought that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice or a learned behaviour...who would chose to be treated the way gays are in our society? who wakes up one day and says to themself "how can I get beaten up every day in school? I KNOW. I WILL TURN GAY!!!" and if it something learned, who is doing the teaching? being that gay people are born to straight families. |
Date: 8/25/2003 3:45:00 PM
From Authorid: 51635
Ok, personally if I had a child, or adopted a child I would hope and pray that he/she would NOT be gay, I would IN NO WAY push him/her towards homosexuality... I would not want that child to have to grow up and face the same closed minded people that I have face EVERY DAY...I have to wonder sometimes where people get thier information on gays...  |
Date: 8/25/2003 3:46:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
Stability is the key to raising an emotionally and mentally healthy child; unmarried and homosexual partners simply cannot provide the stability that married heterosexual couples can give. "Children need a role model, both male and female. Every child has the right to both a mother and a father,". Homosexual activists put their personal desires above the rights of these children to have a chance at a normal family life with a father and mother. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 3:52:00 PM
From Authorid: 33286
hey King, gays are allowed to get married now in Canada, does that mean it is ok for them to raise kids here but not in the U.S? and I have seen more unstable straight couples than I have unstable gay couples, granted there are MORE of one than the other, but still, a committed couple is a committed couple. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 3:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 15394
KC there are plenty of gays that are not activists, and are in monogamous long term relationships... that argument holds no water... and what of the countries where it is legal, doesn't that change the argument? |
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Date: 8/25/2003 3:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
Does a child have a "right" to a mother and a father??? What are the "rights" of the child??Mother nature provides a normal, natural home which includes both anything else is "not natural". |
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Date: 8/25/2003 3:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
KC, your ignorance of the facts are showing. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 4:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
Two Spirit, I hope it's OK if I ignore your slam... |
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Date: 8/25/2003 4:02:00 PM
From Authorid: 15394
the "right" to breathe air is about all that is guaranteed to us at birth...and please look to nature to see what can be considered "normal" in nature! |
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Date: 8/25/2003 4:04:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
Are we now calling being "gay" normal??? |
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Date: 8/25/2003 4:04:00 PM
From Authorid: 33286
being born into a family with a physically abusive father I would have though I had the "right" not to get beaten,but hey, at least he was STRAIGHT... woo hoo. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 4:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
The problem is, KC, you are STUCK in the mindset of the STEREOTYPICAL ; that being of ONE single small percentage of gays who are promiscuous and immoral. You're not THINKING of ALL the ones who are very ethical, very moral, in their lifestyles. I've known some brilliant, highly ethical and moral people who are gay, who I would trust my life with, and who would make excellent parents. People who stereotype ANY group of people need to get a reality checkup. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 4:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
KC, it's not a slam. I did a post a couple of days ago stating numerous facts concerning homosexuality. If you take the time to read it, as well as the links that I put up as proof, then you might learn that the myths perpetrated by the religous and conservative right are worng. There was one thing I did notice about that post. Although it had a high volume of veiws, there were extremely few of the religous right that responded to it. That proves one point to me, the religous right does not respond to post where the facts prove them wrong, but will repsond to a post where they can trash and bash those they do not agree with. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 4:09:00 PM
From Authorid: 15394
percentage wise, I wish I had the stats of similarities between human and animal kingdoms where homosexuality is concerned... as there is of course homosexual behavior quite naturally in nature Plenty of studies to read on the subject matter. That being concluded, yes I am saying that being gay is "normal/natural"... |
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Date: 8/25/2003 4:11:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
A review of nine studies concerning aspects of personal development, such as, self-concept, moral judgment, and intelligence, revealed no significant difference between children of lesbians and gay men and children of heterosexuals (Patterson, 1992). There are also 35 different studies conducted within the last fifteen years that have shown that children of gay and lesbian parents are no more likely to become homosexual than children of heterosexuals, and are just as well adjusted (Gross, 1991). A recent study conducted by Fiona Tasker of Birkbeck College in the Netherlands indicates that non-biological lesbian co-parents are usually more involved with the children and are more likely to assume common child-raising tasks, than are the fathers of heterosexual couples. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 4:13:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
Just for you KC; Homosexuality is not the sexual orientation of the majority of people, but that in itself does not make it abnormal. If we were to use that type of logic, then we would have to consider left handed people to be abnormal also. To a heterosexual person, an intimate relationship with someone of the same sex might seem abnormal or unnatural, but not any more so than heterosexual relations would seem to someone who is gay. Furthermore, there is nothing abnormal or unnatural about wanting to share your life and love with another person. Having the ability to produce offspring is not a prerequisite. If it were, we would have to deny marriage licenses to heterosexual couples who did not wish to, or for some reason could not have children. |
Date: 8/25/2003 4:45:00 PM
From Authorid: 53052
why not?? are they less of people?? i mean that if you really look at it is there any reason why they shouldn't be able to?? 2 loving parents gay straight bi whatever doesn't conflict with the fact that they can love and raise a child  |
Date: 8/25/2003 4:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 53284
The primary focus in an adoption should be the child. You're trying to get the best home possible for the child. Ideally you'll have a loving couple, with at least one person who has a steady job. No drug abuse, no alchol abuse, no violence in the household. You would also want a couple that really wants a child to raise and love. I think that when all those conditions are met then the best interesets of the child are also being met. If the couple happens to be a same sex couple isn't that better for the child than being raised in an institution?  |
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Date: 8/25/2003 4:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 12966
First of all, people are not born gay. homosexuality is a sin! just like every other sin people make the concious decision weather they sin or not. a child should not be raised in a family that chooses to live a life of sin |
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Date: 8/25/2003 5:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 15394
LC please don't speak for those that you do not know... many people are born with their self identity being what our world calls "gay"... they know how they feel.... and a loving home, rather than no home is wonderful, yet I would give equal consideration to homosexual homes, as I would to heterosexual homes... less about sexual habits and more about parenting abilities would be nice !! |
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Date: 8/25/2003 5:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
LC, I think it is time for a little education. Here are the facts; "Sexual orientation, whether it be heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual does not appear to be something that one chooses. Recent studies suggest that sexual orientation has a genetic or biological component, and is probably determined before or shortly after birth. Like heterosexuals, gays and lesbians discover their sexuality as a process of maturing, they are not recruited, seduced or taught to be homosexual (Bell, Weinberg, M.S., & Hammersmith, 1981), (Troiden, 1989). The only choice most gay or lesbian people have is whether or not to live their lives honestly, or according to societies unrealistic expectations." I once had a preacher tell me that ignorance is a sin. It made me realize, there are really are a lot of sinners out there. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 5:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 33286
gee Liquid Chicken, maybe you would like to explain to all just how someone "becomes" gay. while you are at it maybe you could explain how Christian beliefs have to apply to non Christians, I for one don't believe in your concept of sin. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 5:09:00 PM
From Authorid: 33286
hey Two Spirit, you type faster than I do, lol |
Date: 8/25/2003 5:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
I am going to whip up some "Anti-Homophobe" spray & spray all around USM.(Relax, it smells like Jasmine.)....seriously  |
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Date: 8/25/2003 5:19:00 PM
From Authorid: 12966
how Christian beliefs have to apply to non Christians...hmmmmm...well, just because you dont believe in hell doesnt mean you are not going to burn there for eternity, I'm sorry Two Spirit, but you are the one who need to be educated |
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Date: 8/25/2003 5:21:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
There is a difference between the "animal kingdom" and humans. Humans are the only species on the face of the planet with the "knowledge" of right and wrong, natural and unnatural. What animals do is purely based on instinct, hormones, and the like. Animals do what they do without the "knowledge" of natural and unnatural, right and wrong, good and evil. Humans in no way can be compared to animals with respect to this issue. We know better, we know it is unnatural. That's what "knowledge" does. But still, nobody has responded with respect to the "rights of the child". Everybody puts their rights first.... |
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Date: 8/25/2003 5:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 15394
the example of the animal kingdom was simply to show that it is a natural thing... as to the rights of the child, what rights?? The right to be born isn't even secure... as with ALL of us, you are born and survive, all that is being asked is that a child without parents be given parents of ANY kind... how sadf to think a child should not have these parents because they don't fit a pigeon hole hacked out by previous generations... |
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Date: 8/25/2003 5:29:00 PM
From Authorid: 33286
I'm sorry, did North America turn from a Democracy to Theocracy? we can all see how well Theocracies work, just look to Iraq... nobody allowed to live any other way than Moslem, and no freedom to practice any other form of life... see to me I think people should live good lives regardless of the fact they think they will wind up in hell, if that is your only excuse for being a good person (fear of hell) then I think there is something wrong. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 5:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
LC, so some 17 year old kid is going to educate me when I am the one that works with these people everyday? I doubt it. I know what the Bible says. I have read it numerous times, as well as parts of the Koran and the Talmud. I also know that the religous right has twoisted the true meaning of the word, and that many people are brainwashed with religion. I am one of the fortunate ones. I walked away from religion, in favor of spirituality and truth. I for one, do not believe in your Hell. I do believe the spirit of those who do evil will be tormented in the afterlife. KC, I didn't realize you had a PhD in the social sciences. Given the knowledge that science has proven to be fact, I will take their word over yours. Of course, many Christians would rather believe their myths, rather than proven facts. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 5:33:00 PM
From Authorid: 12966
Im not scared of hell, I know im not going there, i live agood life to glorify God, to bear fruit, i live the way the Bible says to, and there is a difference between fear and respect. I am not scared of God, but I obey him because i love Him and i know that only He knows what is best for me. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 5:35:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
Hack, if the religous conservatives had their way, members of the LGBT community would be in camps awaiting sentencing and death. They won;t admit it openly, by it is easy enough to read between the lines. If you read your history, you will find that even Hitler used religon to his own ends. |
Date: 8/25/2003 5:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 40979
No, I do not think homosexuals should be able to adopt children. I mean, think about it, to mommies or two daddies, it is just ode. Plus I don't like the idea of homosexuality in the first place. I do not think it is right. Although it does not determine the persons personality or what not. I just don't like the idea in general.  |
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Date: 8/25/2003 5:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
ROTFL, please LC, stop, the humor is killing me. Someone please make her stop before I die laughing. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 5:40:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
Out of the 31,173 verses contained in the Bible, there are less than a dozen that allegedly deal with the topic of homosexuality. The meaning of these verses remains fairly obscure to many Biblical scholars, especially in the context of loving committed relationships. Jesus himself said nothing, which leads many people to believe that the subject of homosexuality was not a concern. Interestingly enough, the word homosexual did not appear in any translation of the Bible until 1946 (Blumenfeld, & Raymond, 1988). Likewise, there are words in the Greek language for same-sex sexual activities, yet they never appear in the original text of the New Testament (Blumenfeld, & Raymond, 1988). |
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Date: 8/25/2003 5:41:00 PM
From Authorid: 12966
they would not be in camps awaiting sentencing and death, but they should be getting help, there are many people who were homosexuals and then accepted Christ and realized they were living in sin and they repented |
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Date: 8/25/2003 5:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 33286
so you aren't a 'God fearing Christian' I guess. I don't fear Hell either, don't believe in it when it comes to that... but neither do Catholics, a few years back they came out and said that that concept was created by man. and as for Jesus, I believe his main teaching was tolerance and I am not seeing much of that these days. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 5:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
As citizens of this country we have the right to pursue the faith of our choice without fear of persecution; but, as citizens of this country we also have the responsibility to insure that no one persons' beliefs, religious or otherwise, interfere with another persons basic civil rights. Some religious faiths teach that eating meat or consuming caffeine is wrong. Others prohibit dancing, the use of modern technology, eating pork, or the use of birth control. These people have the right to live by the teaching of their faiths, but they do not have the right to insist that all people live according to their personal beliefs. Our government is not a theocracy based on Biblical law. Legislation must reflect a tolerance for diversity in extending basic civil rights to all citizens with respect for the common good of society. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 5:45:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
LC, do you really believe that crap. Let me guess, you got that info from NARTH and Exodus. Both have been proven to be mockeries. Homosexuality cannot be changed. It is inate. Only the choice to act on what is inate can be changed. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 5:46:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
And the education continues; Since homosexuality is not a disease or disorder, there is nothing to cure. A few therapists claim that they can rid gay people of their homosexual desires, but their methods remain extremely questionable and rarely, if ever, have resulted in permanently changing anybody's sexual orientation (Haldeman, 1994). According to the American Psychological Association, no scientific evidence exists to support the effectiveness of any therapies that attempt to convert homosexuals to heterosexuals. The American Psychological Association Executive Director Dr. Raymond Fowler also states that "Groups who try to change the sexual orientation of people through so-called conversion therapy are misguided and run the risk of causing a great deal of psychological harm to those they say they are trying to help." The American Academy of Pediatrics states: "Therapy directed at specifically changing sexual orientation is contraindicated, since it can provoke guilt and anxiety while having little or no potential for achieving changes in orientation." The American Medical Association "does not recommend aversion therapy for gay men and lesbians. Through psychotherapy, gay men and lesbians can become comfortable with their sexual orientation and understand the societal response to it." The American Psychiatric Association states: "There is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of reparative therapy as a treatment to change ones sexual orientation." The American Psychiatric Association also states: "gay men and lesbians who have accepted their sexual orientation positively are better adjusted than those who have not done so." |
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Date: 8/25/2003 5:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 33286
here is how I see sin......//Love and hate are intertwined,//// together alive through thick and thin./// like joy and sorrow- all part of one,/// looking like each others twin./// show your anger to show you care,/// plant your feet, thrust out your chin./// shout at the Heavens in quest of answers,/// then listen to hear them against the din./// no, love and hate arent opposite each other,/// they are not like the words 'lose' and 'win'./// the opposite of both is just one thing./// 'INDIFFERENCE' is the only sin./// |
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Date: 8/25/2003 5:50:00 PM
From Authorid: 35720
Liquid Chicken, your ignorance is nothing short of amazing. You are not berating homosexuals because you're Christian.. you're berating them because you're close-minded. There's a difference. Just because YOU believe in God, DOES NOT make "Him" so. Personally, I find the idea of an invisible man who lives in the sky, a little on the unbelievable side. I believe the idea of Hell is ludicrous and was created for the sole purpose of scaring people into becoming Christian and following the strict rules that come along with it. There's no proof of a God and no proof that Jesus was infact his son. I'm sorry to turn this into something religious, but that's your ONLY back-up.. homosexuals can be good people just like EVERYONE else and live honest, moral lives. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 5:52:00 PM
From Authorid: 62222
So LC, just out of curiosity, are you going to say that a homosexual couple, one with a 50k a year income and another with a 20k part time imcome in order to raise the child should be passed up for a family that nets 14-16k a year with an abusive father and alcoholic mother but because they are heterosexual they should get the priviledge of adopting the child because the other family is homosexual? In all honesty, you really BELIEVE that peoples morals are evident in who they are sleeping with? Or is this a religious argument that the Bible says homosexuality is wrong? Because adoption falls under State Law and not Religious Law. Do you know how many kid's get ground up in the system during adoption? I encourage caring, loving people to adopt and I don't give a rat's petootie if they are gay or not. Because my concern IS for the welfare of the children. The last thing a child needs is to be another way to make a government check percentage go up, which is how a lot of children are used. If someone, ANYONE has the guts to look up and say, "I want to be responsible for raising a child to be a productive member of society, to know right and wrong and to remember to honor their fellow humans and to do no frivilous harm to others for their own gain." Then I salute that person, gay, straight, black, white, male, female. I will always honor those who will take all those wounded, abandoned children into their hearts and actually CARE for them. And it doesn't matter who else they love, as long as they LOVE that child. <regretfulhalo> |
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Date: 8/25/2003 5:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
People, you can believe what you want. Understand this though. Your myths are being proven worng everyday. Our numbers are much greater than the 2% that you believe. We are actually a very strong voting block, and are very active in politics. We do not care what you think of us, because it is not your life, but ours. Your negative comments are not important to us. They are nothing but your own ignorance of the facts. We have our life to live, and we will live it as we see fit. We will have equality. We have asked for it, but been denied. Therfore we will fight for it, and we will get it, whether you like it or not. We have our supporters outside our number, and together, we will make a difference. We are already in all facets of your life, whether you know it or not. We are even in your churches, although you would deny us the right to worship. We will prevail. We are the LGBT. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 5:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 12966
If God had intended the human race to be fulfilled through both heterosexual and homosexual marriage, He would have designed our bodies to allow reproduction through both means and made both means of sexual intercourse healthy and natural. Homosexual intercourse carries a high risk of disease, this is recognized in Scripture where gay men are said to receive in their bodies the due penalty for their error |
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Date: 8/25/2003 5:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 62222
Are you serious? LC...you DO know that straight people get STD's too right? And you do know that most STD's came from the consumption of infected animals...as in eating them......<regretfulhalo> |
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Date: 8/25/2003 6:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
I love educating people; HIV is a virus that has the potential to infect anyone. Over 70% of HIV infection world wide is the result of heterosexual contact (World Health Organization, 1996). According to CDC statistics (July, 1997) heterosexual sex is the fastest growing mode of transmission for HIV in the United States - growing at a rate of 15 to 20 percent a year, compared to 5 percent for intravenous drug users and 5 percent for gay males. Lesbians remain the least likely group of people to acquire HIV through sexual contact. Simply put, AIDS is a disease, like any other disease. If we believe that disease is a form of punishment, then what did the people who suffer from cancer do to deserve such a fate? What about Alzheimer's, multiple sclerosis, cystic fibrosis, and the thousands of other horrible diseases, birth defects, and illnesses? |
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Date: 8/25/2003 6:03:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
LC, you just keep spouting your myths. I have a list full of facts that I will keep throwing at your myths. We all know that when one compares facts to myths, facts always win. Knowledge is a great thing, if people do not waste it. |
Date: 8/25/2003 6:03:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
I had a comment for this post, then I read the all the comments, came to the "bear fruit" part and can't stop laughing.  |
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Date: 8/25/2003 6:03:00 PM
From Authorid: 12966
yes, heterosexual sex out side of marriage is one of the leading causesof HIV, but sex outside of marraige is also a sin |
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Date: 8/25/2003 6:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
Hey Base, glad to see you join in the fun. Yeah, "bear fruit". That's a new one on me. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 6:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
LC, prove that sex outside of marriage is a sin |
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Date: 8/25/2003 6:11:00 PM
From Authorid: 12966
bear fruit, have you not heard of the fruits of the Spirit? thats what that means, im not talking about peaches and apples |
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Date: 8/25/2003 6:13:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
LC, the proper phrase, as founf in the KJV, is "beareth fruit". Bear fruit is what a bear easts. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 6:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
yeah two spirit I got a good laugh outta some of these comments, it's like hearing a robot, programmed to say certain things because it lacks the intelligence to think on it's own |
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Date: 8/25/2003 6:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
I keep laughing so hard I can;t even spell right |
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Date: 8/25/2003 6:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
Now that's an analogy I have never heard before. I'll have to remember that one |
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Date: 8/25/2003 6:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 12966
"And He answered and said to them, 'Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female,'" -Matthew 19:4 |
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Date: 8/25/2003 6:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 12966
"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." -1 Corinthians 6  -10 |
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Date: 8/25/2003 6:19:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
Touche` |
Date: 8/25/2003 6:19:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
Galatians 3 8: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither Male nor Female: For ye are all one in Christ Jesus. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 6:20:00 PM
From Authorid: 33286
Bear fruit? are we talking about gay Bears now? are they allowed to adopt? |
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Date: 8/25/2003 6:22:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
only if they repent their sins and tithe half their fruit to the Church Hack |
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Date: 8/25/2003 6:23:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
*eye roll* take two steps forward, one step back..... |
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Date: 8/25/2003 6:24:00 PM
From Authorid: 51635
Could someone please define "normal" .... and just because something is right for one, that doesn't mean it's right for ALL... It seems to me that some people need to get a better grip on the reality of the 21st century and the fact that people think freely and have broken the bonds that the priests of old tied... |
Date: 8/25/2003 6:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 41067
Bless you Two Spirit, its people like you who help me keep my temper in check when I see the ignorant, closed-minded pap being spouted forth by certain members of the world community. It infuriates me when I see people handing out these false labels to people they do not know based on erroneus information created by people whose mind's are closed so tightly it's a wonder they get any oxygen to their brains at all!  |
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Date: 8/25/2003 6:30:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
I'M Z.P.-Normal is a relative term. "Normal" to some is "left-field" to others. I do not consider it "normal" to tell people they face eternal damnation. But, that is just me.... |
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Date: 8/25/2003 6:31:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
There is only one thing is this world that is normal. MsPriss showed it to me one day, and she was right. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 6:31:00 PM
From Authorid: 51635
Hmmmm... seems to me that the people who belive the wrong thing are the ones going to hell, so why don't we ask someone who knows what the right thing is? well, because there isn't anyone who has come back from the dead to say one way or the other... so you belive what you want to and I'll do so the same and when I get to my after life I'll ask God if she can take it easy on you, for you know not what you do by judging others... |
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Date: 8/25/2003 6:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
actually I'M Z.P., none of us will know, till we get there. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 6:33:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
The only thing that one can find that is normal is on their washing machine. If you go look at the dial or buttons, you will find "Normal" |
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Date: 8/25/2003 6:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 41067
How can people inherit the kingdom of god? Don't you inhereit something once the previous owner has died? |
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Date: 8/25/2003 6:48:00 PM
From Authorid: 51635
1 Corinthians 11 continuse with "And some of you were just that; but you were washed and you were made holy and you were made righteous by the power of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." That seems to me to be a one way ticket in the upwards direction for EVERYONE... |
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Date: 8/25/2003 6:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 62187
L.C. … I am so sorry that your church has distorted your biblical knowledge and your perception of the world. You have no idea of what you speak. You say that to have relations without marriage is a sin. May I ask who married Adam and Eve? Was their original copulation a sin? No where does it mention that God sanctioned their union. Marriage is a church created ceremony. That is all. Now it has been adopted for civil record keeping as well. All this is off the subject. L.C. Please show me one quote from Christ saying that homosexuality is a sin, or even a perversion. I have never found it, and no one has ever shown me one. Maybe, you will be the one to educate me. If you can, I will publicly revise my thoughts. In the meantime, there is no evidence that Homosexuals are not as loving and caring parents as anyone in society. They do not ‘infect’ their children with their lifestyle. Lets face it with all the unwanted kids born every year, aren’t we doing them a disservice denying them parents even if they are ‘only’ homosexual? If asked would any child refuse such a home over the foster care system? Let’s put the children first for a change and let them have a loving stable home. <<<Baby Girl Sandi>> |
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Date: 8/25/2003 6:50:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
<----check my post Baby Sandi...those quotes are over there, |
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Date: 8/25/2003 6:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 51635
LC, the quote from Matthew, could you please stick to the subject? ... |
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Date: 8/25/2003 7:00:00 PM
From Authorid: 51635
Yes, LC would force women to have unwanted or dangerous pregnancies reach full term and then prevent those children from being adopted by loving parents who want them and have the resources to take care of them... and this is the "right", "moral" way of thinking??????... |
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Date: 8/25/2003 7:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 35720
It's pretty sad when the only thing one has to back up their arguments are biblical scriptures. Yawn.. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 7:11:00 PM
From Authorid: 33286
you know, I have been thinking about all the atrocities inflicted on children by straight parents and I think it begs the question...SHOULD STRAIT PEOPLE BE ALLOWED TO ADOPT? |
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Date: 8/25/2003 7:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 51635
Very goo question Timbo, but no one ever asks that...they ever question the ability of a woman who is attraced to men to care for young boys, but they always question that ability in a man who is attracted to men... funny world eh?... |
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Date: 8/25/2003 7:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
oh, oh....Timbo, *DANGER**DANGER*, stop thinking like that!!!! |
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Date: 8/25/2003 7:15:00 PM
From Authorid: 51635
And the people we're supposed to listen to and accept interpritaions of the bible from are the guys they're putting jail for hurting children?... why doesn't everyone see the problem here?... |
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Date: 8/25/2003 7:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 51635
must be past LC's bed time... |
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Date: 8/25/2003 7:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 33286
I have two words... Catholic Orphanages... |
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Date: 8/25/2003 7:19:00 PM
From Authorid: 51635
Yeah Timbo, God forbid someone pick on the "moral majority's" way of thinking ... |
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Date: 8/25/2003 7:26:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
what happened to LC? *worried look* |
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Date: 8/25/2003 7:33:00 PM
From Authorid: 33286
yep, have any of you ever heard of Mount Cashel Orphanage? here is a little history of it...Two Vancouver private schools have reached an out-of-court settlement that will see them pay $19 million to a liquidator working on compensation for abuse victims at Newfoundland's notorious Mount Cashel orphanage. The settlement, which must still receive court approval, means the two schools will not have to close. It also speeds the process of getting money to those who were abused by clerics at the orphanage in the 1970s and '80s. "We are very happy that this five-year legal battle is now over and we have the opportunity to restore certainty and confidence to the future of Vancouver College and St. Thomas More," John Nixon, a spokesman for the two schools, said Thursday... The two schools were to be sold and closed to help pay $67 million in compensation ordered by an Ontario court in 1996. The matter was in Ontario Superior Court because that's the province where the Brothers had their headquarters. The schools, established in the 1920s, were by far the biggest asset of the order, estimated to be worth between $38 million and $43 million. ...... so the Catholic Church thought it best to fight the charges in court for MANY years rather than admit that their people were abusing children... and you know what? they still think that way. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 7:36:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
that is terrifying. Human monsters are a lot scarier than anything I have found in a cemetery. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 7:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 51635
Well sure, if they admit that they are wrong about anything, then everything is up for debate... |
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Date: 8/25/2003 7:38:00 PM
From Authorid: 51635
Tandris, thats a valid fear for him since he thinks that being gay is a choice... something I KNOW to be UNTRUE... |
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Date: 8/25/2003 7:38:00 PM
From Authorid: 41067
Very true my Sister |
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Date: 8/25/2003 7:41:00 PM
From Authorid: 41067
Preachin to the choir I'M Z.P. I have several gay and lesbian friends, I know what they went through before they felt ok with telling people, and how it wasn't a choice for them either. Perhaps he fears that his god won't want him if he associates with us for too long. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 7:43:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
I can see that all are dodging the rights issue. We're not talking about a "fetus", we're talking about a human being. Does an infant, as a human being, have rights and if so, what are they?? I believe that as an infant, the child has rights. And that should include the right to a father AND a mother if the government is to decide. We've all been kids and know well how cruel kids can be to each other. Heck, just look through the replies to this post and see how cruel adults can be to each other. Now try and imagine what an adoptive child, with two dads, or two moms will have to endure. It's tough being young and I don't think it's fair to add the extra burden of this onto an adoptive child. Being adopted itself can be emotionally tough on a child. As a parent, I have always put the best interests of my children first, in all cases. I would expect no less from my government with respect to children. I have no doubts that Gay couples can be very good parents, even better than some straight parents. But we still must consider the "rights" of the child first before our own. That's what a good parent does... |
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Date: 8/25/2003 7:45:00 PM
From Authorid: 51635
Yes Tandris, it tool me a long time for me to get to the point where I no longer hid from anyone, now I don't really care who knows, I'm out to everyone in my life now and if they have a problem with it, it's thier problem, not mine... |
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Date: 8/25/2003 7:48:00 PM
From Authorid: 51635
A child adopted by gay parents wouldn't get picked on at school if the other children's parents didn't teach them HATE... |
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Date: 8/25/2003 7:52:00 PM
From Authorid: 51635
Oh, but the fat child, the interracial child, the kid with glasses, the short child, the tall child, and the slow child wouldn't get picked on either.... |
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Date: 8/25/2003 7:52:00 PM
From Authorid: 41067
Very true I'M Z.P. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 7:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
I can see Z.P. that you could care less about the "child". It's all about you, right?? |
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Date: 8/25/2003 7:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 51635
Not at all KC, I'm all for a child finding a loving, supportive home where the choice between food and medicine or food and heat doesn't have to be made... |
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Date: 8/25/2003 7:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
KC, I am transgendered, and my daughter never saw cruelty by other kids because of it. In fact, most of the kids have welcomed me as Jean, and in fact, call me Mama Jean. The only reason any kid is treated cruelly, is because the parents tell them that certain things are worng. If you tell your children that being gay is wrong, they will grow up hating gays, and will treat them badly, or in the case of kids of gays, they will tease and harass them. Education is the key. However, one must first want to be educated. Now, the facts have been presented, and those facts have been proven. If you refuse to accept them, then what preacher told me years ago is right, "Ignorance is a sin". |
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Date: 8/25/2003 7:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 41067
what about a child who is adopted by overweight people? What happens if the child gets picked on for that? Or if the child is adopted by people of a different race to it's own? Or an interracial couple? Or someone who is disabled? Should they be stopped from adopting, or given restrictions? |
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Date: 8/25/2003 7:58:00 PM
From Authorid: 33286
K.C. I think your "rights" issue is overblown, not too long ago women didn't have the "right" to vote or own property, Blacks didn't have the "right" to freedom of any sort, but they do now, times change and peoples rights change with them...no thanks to the Christian right who fought all these changes every step of the way |
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Date: 8/25/2003 7:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
KC, in fact, it is all about what YOU think is right, rather than what has been proven to be right. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 7:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
I'll be back in the A.M. My son has school. We'll talk then. Goodnight, all! |
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Date: 8/25/2003 8:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 51635
Well for that matter Tandris, should single parents have trier kids taken away? since the main argument against gays adopting is that the child has a right to a mother and father... |
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Date: 8/25/2003 8:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 33286
myself I had one good parent and one not good parent, did I have the right NOT to be raised by two parents of opposite sexes married to each other? no, I had no choice in the matter. did I have the right NOT to be beaten? not at that time, Childrens rights hadn't evolved that much back then. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 8:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 41067
Very good point there I'M Z.P. Also, KC, I notice earlier you were saying that "unmarried and homosexual partners simply cannot provide the stability that married heterosexual couples can give". What has marriage got to do with it? Is this really about what you think is best for the child, or about things you consider to be morally wrong? |
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Date: 8/25/2003 8:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
KC, I am not trying to put you on the spot, but you believe a child is entitled to a Mother & a Father. Do you have anything indicating a two-parent family has a more stable influence on children, aside from your own opinion? For example, I raised THREE children alone, without a husband, or Father (my "ex" is an absentee Daddy), including two adult daughters, and neither got pregnant out of wedlock, had abortions, did drugs, or landed in jail. In fact, aside from a few language issues, and dyed hair, they were very easy children. What is my point? We need to come into the 21st century with what constitutes a "good" family situation. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 8:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 33286
and that was from the Christian belief of spare the rod and spoil the child, at least my father spared me one rod, the one a lot of Catholic children weren't spared at all. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 8:19:00 PM
From Authorid: 33286
this page is taking too long to load on my computer now, good night all |
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Date: 8/25/2003 8:29:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
Yes times do change and so do rights (Thank God). All those rights you mentioned and the people who deserved them I support 100%. I also support the rights of children, and many of these have yet to be determined. And yes, education is an answer to many of societies problems. I am also glad to hear that your relationship and your daughters experience, have been good Two Spirits. I'm sure you are able to share many other life stories that are not as blessed from your experince with the organizations you are closely involved with. But to qualify your personal experiences on a blanket scope, and make it OK across the board, is a giant step and I don't believe that the rights of children are defined enough to support it. Nor, has enough time transpired form observing and learning the effects on children who are presently living iside these family units. It could take decades before science knows "for sure" what the effects of Gay parents have inside the family structure, with respect to "adoption". There are other issues to be decided first before this one... |
Date: 8/25/2003 9:04:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
I don't see why a gay person shouldn't be allowed to adopt a child. I can see where a gay couple adopting a child would cause waves because of how it could effect the child's emotional state. Not all children react the same but some children may be embarrassed, harrassed or confused, by having two parents of the same sex.  |
Date: 8/25/2003 9:19:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
I could bring up so many instances of father killing their, mothers killing their children, assaulting them, abusing them, starving them, "so-called" normal heterosexals. I would be interested in stats where gays adopted and then abused children in similar or like situations. I don't have any personal case histories although I can pull up file after file on parents who abuse and kill their children. Just here in my own city. Some cases linked to my place of employment. How sad that a child could be denied a decent and caring environment over a hostile, volitile, abuse homelife simply because the adoptive parents "were gay".  |
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Date: 8/25/2003 9:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
It is terrible Shadow Ghost what children have to endure and little is done for their protection, IMO, with respect to our laws and government. Too many times parents are no punished severely enough. There should be no gray areas when it comes to children. You harm a child and you'll pay harshly for it <<This is the way it needs to be....I support much more severe punishment for anyone who would "harm" a child... |
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Date: 8/25/2003 9:58:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
KC, there is only one probem with your line of thought. Kids don't have decades to find loving homes. Just the studies done in the past 15 years have proven that kids of gay parents do as well, if not better then their peers. That is already enough for some states that do allow gay foster parenting and adoptions. |
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Date: 8/25/2003 9:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
KC... I'll second that comment! |
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Date: 8/25/2003 10:02:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
I was referred to a website mare.org by AZ because I'm interested in adopting a special needs child. It makes me sick when I read the profiles of how these children have been neglected and abused. Some of them truly will never see a real home due to their age. I do agree that we need more truly good, safe and healthy homes for children all over the world. |
Date: 8/25/2003 10:43:00 PM
From Authorid: 37900
Homosexuals should not be allowed to adopt children for two reasons: 1) How can an all-male couple teach children about how to properly relate to women? Similarly, how can an all-female couple teach a child how to properly relate to men? 2) Despite the wealth of information Two Spirit provided in this and in her earlier post, the fundamental piece of information is missing: proof that homosexuality is genetically based. There were many references to the existence of the "gay gene," but no evidence that I could find. Two Spirit's reply of 8/25, 5:05 PM, wisely uses phrases like, "does not appear," "suggests" and "probably." These ideas, I suggest, are more accurate than the intense language people can resort to. To claim that homosexuality is biologically based without evidence is as bold as claiming the Bible is the inspired Word of God without proof. Since the primary claim has not been established, every subsequent statement that follows from it is moot. I have learned much from these replies and from Two Spirit's earlier post.  |
Date: 8/26/2003 12:41:00 AM
From Authorid: 34814
Looks like I dropped in late on one of the best debates. I totally think Gays should be able to marry and adopt and I think anyone using the Bible to stop this needs to get out of the house more. Thanks and lets learn some respect for other peoples genders, lifestyles, and child services. If they are stable and suited them them do it!  |
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Date: 8/26/2003 12:49:00 AM
From Authorid: 34814
So you mean to tell us afrowl that because 2 gay men can't teach a female child about women? Most of my gay male friend can do hair and make up better then any women I have ever met in my life. Not to mention some of them are very feminie. Also straight families who have gay children I am sure took extra time to teach them to be gay? That is such a bogus excuse I can't even believe you would post that! Children will be in school with many other children. Where they will learn all kinds of relations to all races and genders. My gay friends all had straight parents except for one. And that gay friend was gay years before his mother turned lesbian. So maybe she actually learned to be gay from her own son. Boy to judge gay people sure sounds like you don't actually know any of them personally. Might be a good idea to come out of the box and say hello. Because change is coming for those who have been in the box for years unwilling. |
Date: 8/26/2003 1:40:00 AM
From Authorid: 59876
i was really disappointed to see a group of people here harassing individuals with differing opinions, a trend that seems to be abundant of late. i might point out that regardless of how one believes or what their opinions are, a kind word is more apt to open discussion than harassment. on another note, differing religious views do not make for twisted teachings and when one chooses to follow the bible from a stand that opposes homosexuality it is unreasonable to force that person to renig on their views because yours might not be in accordance. if you wish to teach tolerance you might learn to speak with tolerance. what happened to the two each their own mentality i see so many of these same harrasors speak of on other posts? for me, the issues of homosexuals adopting are not stability or homosexuality, but that there are time frames when a child is really dependant on their mother or their father specifically for their needs and i don't mean the big sex talk or putting on makeup. my son is two and very much momma's boy right now. in a couple of years it will be all about dad. i don't wish for any kids to be put in institutions or bounced from foster home to foster home but to have the best of their need met. i think older kids should be active in their placements. younger children are more easily adaptable to differnt situations. regardless of how much a child might want a home, an older child raised with differnt beliefs may find it too dificult emotionally to ajust to living with two same sex parents, a family with a different racial background, etc. and it would not be their fault. where and how the child was raised previously must be taken into consideration. i don't think additional difficulties should be raised for a child in the name of promoting what we might want as adults. i think the child should always be considered first in all things.  |
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Date: 8/26/2003 3:59:00 AM
From Authorid: 47296
The following 21 states have set court precedents which have either allowed gays to adopt, or opened the door for gay adoptions. That tells me the case is strong for it. Alaska, California, Colorado, Connecticut, District of Columbia, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Michigan, Nevada, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Texas, Vermont, Washington |
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Date: 8/26/2003 4:14:00 AM
From Authorid: 47296
Alfrowl, it is not the gay community that keeps asking for proof that being gay is inate. They already know it. It is the conservative right that asks for it. They have asked for proof of a gay gene. The human mind and body is very complex, and there is still much that medical science does not know. If they did, then everyone would be perfectly healthy at all times. Most gays could actually care less if the cause is ever found. They are comfortable with the fact that for them, it is not a choice, but just who they are. The arguement you used about a male couple or female couple teaching a child about the opposite sex does not hold water either. We are at an alltime high for single parent families. That means that according to your reasoning, that those chidren of one parent families should be taken from their loving parent and placed only in teo parent families. Double standard here? You bet your duff there is. I will ask this, if a child had the option of being adopted by loving gay parents, or having to live their young life in an orphanage or bounced from foster home to foster home, which would you agree with. There are some children out there that stand little chance of adoption because of medical or other reasons. If a gay couple wished to adopt them and give them the love they needed, what is there that would hurt. |
Date: 8/26/2003 6:38:00 AM
From Authorid: 52140
I asked my parenting teacher about this and she said she thinks it isn't best for the child because they function best if a mother and a father (instead of two mothers or two fathers) are present.  |
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Date: 8/26/2003 6:50:00 AM
From Authorid: 59876
to add, religion isn't taken into account either. i could see where it shouldn't be a factor in the eyes of many, but as i said before, an older child may not be able to handle vast religious or non religious differences. i say this because actually i was suprised to find children as young as eight and nine decisive in their belief system, and kids a little older firmly decisive in their lack of religion or pagan alternative and opinions of sexual and parent issues. (haven't really experienced atheism or pagan religious choices with younger children, only in regards to factions of christianity. not sure why.)i really do think older children should be proactive in their adoption arrangements as much as possible, and that children should be made as comfortable as possible with their prospective parental choices. |
Date: 8/26/2003 1:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
A wise man (my dad) used to always say to me, "Figures don't lie, but liars figure." Hey, TS, when did you figure on telling us how many of these same-sex adoptions only involve ONE person adopting, as the other person in the relationship IS one of the biological parent? Or the same sex couple is otherwise related to the child? Someone up there hit the nail on the head re: "stranger" adoptions: If there weren't any "unwanted pregnancy" the availability of children up for adoption would drastically reduce. Every single human being needs to be responsible in their sexual actions. Especially PARENTS, regardless of how they became a "parent". God Bless.  |
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Date: 8/26/2003 1:51:00 PM
From Authorid: 51635
Alfrowl, First...Have you never heard that a gay man is a woman's best friend? the gay men I know understand woomen better then any straight men I have ever met, better then any straight man I have ever known of... and yes I do belive the same goes for lesbians...Second, I would be willing to bet any amount of money that 99% of gay people were raised by straight people, that should be enough to convince anyone that homosexuality isn't a learned behavior.. and on the off chance that it is(an I will never belive it to be so) then the behavior must have been learned out side of the home and if straight parents couldn't prevent it then how can a gay parent be expected to?... |
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Date: 8/26/2003 1:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 51635
And yes KC, despite what you may think it is all about the rights of the child, the right a child has to loving home with heat and food and warm, dry, safe place to sleep every night...If both a mother and a father were required for a house to have children then there would be a lot of children taken away from all kinds of single parents... I belive that the parents having a loving relationship is more important to the child then what thier genders are... |
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Date: 8/26/2003 1:58:00 PM
From Authorid: 51635
Doheney, if the child has already has his/her ways set in one religion or another, wouldn't it make sense to have that be a factor no matter who was adopting him/her? I do belive that the athorities take that in to concideration already... |
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Date: 8/26/2003 2:28:00 PM
From Authorid: 33286
where are all these strait couples stepping up to adopt children? there are so many in the system that don't get adopted at all and are shunted from foster home to foster home. if it is indeed a childs right to have two parents of opposite sex why arent children taken away from single parents and forcably placed into straight homes? children don't have the "right" to two parents, some have the privilege, but if one parent dies in a straight family the rights of the child don't kick in and demands aren't made to place that child into a straight home with two parents. also, many adoptive parents seem to only want to adopt infants and are willing to adopt from other countries rather than adopt slightly older children from home. so, if a child isn't being adopted by straight parents does that child then have the right to be adopted by a gay couple? does that right only kick in when no straight couple choses to adopt this child? seems to me to be just another way to keep gay people as second class citizens without the same rights and privileges as straight people. |
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Date: 8/26/2003 2:36:00 PM
From Authorid: 59876
my added response in regards to religion was not based on the gender of the adoptive parents it was an addenum to the thiings i believe should be taken into consideration when an older child is adopted out. by no means in my statement am implying that children of one race, religion, or gender situation should only be placed with a family of the exact same circumstances, only that some older children have been strictly raised in their beliefs and may not be comfortable in a living situation vastly different then how they were raised and should be proactive in their adoption. it should always be first and formost about the child. many kids would be happy to accept any home with loving parenst, many kids need to fit into their new family in ways that are familiar and comforting to them. it is all about the child. please read my reply again as i feel i made myself abundantly clear. younger children are much more adaptable to ajusting to a new situation and the considerations should be first and formost their comfort and happiness as determined by the responsible adults in charge of their case. |
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Date: 8/26/2003 2:40:00 PM
From Authorid: 59876
the problem of older children not being as adoptable is not an issue of parent gender, but of parents that are unable to have children and want a baby, the difficulties of raising an older child emotionally damaged by trauma, and the cost of medical expenses for disabled children as once they are adopted the parents assume medical liability for the child. the cost of care for a severely disabled child can be astrnomical. |
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Date: 8/26/2003 3:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
Deb, almost all same sex couple adoptions are one person adoptions, since only one state presently accepts gay civil unions. That means only one person can adopt, since their union os not legally recognized. Your right, figures don't lie, that is why I use them. |
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Date: 8/26/2003 3:20:00 PM
From Authorid: 59876
i do think a two parent situation is a better option for a child than a single parent option. if a homosexual is allowed to adopt, it makes more sense to me for it to be a two parent committed relationship than a single parent choice, not only for the emotional needs of the child, but for the financial needs of the family. |
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Date: 8/26/2003 3:24:00 PM
From Authorid: 33286
this intire post is about parental gender, the question asked was "should homosexuals be able to adopt children?" and to me that is more a question of civil liberties than a question of religion, after all there is supposed to be a separation of Church and State and just because a religion sees homosexuality as a sin should in no way stop homosexuals from adopting. |
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Date: 8/26/2003 3:28:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
To the ones who say what about the children and the teasing and ridicule they may face, is that fair to them. If people raised their children to be tolerant, understanding and accepting of people that wouldn't be an issue. But since so many parents don't, is there a chance the children will be made fun of, of course. But children from straight families are ridiculed and made fun of also. To use that as and excuse to deny a child the right to a lifetime of love from a family is sad. School is only a few years a family is for forever. And, there are other alternatives, homeschooling, private school, tutoring, a child shouldn't be denied love just because of a few people's ignorance. |
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Date: 8/26/2003 3:50:00 PM
From Authorid: 33286
and I agree, a two parent system is sometimes better than a one parent system, but here in Canada homosexuals are allowed to marry, and commonlaw marrages are also recognized. it doesn't take a church to declare a union, just a loving couple. |
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Date: 8/26/2003 3:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 59876
what i meant about the adoptablility of an older child not being a gender issue is exactly that. my meaning was that older children statistically are not as adoptable or adaptable as younger children are for the reasons i stated previosly. it is an entirely different set of circunstances to adopt an older or disabled child than it is to adopt a younger more adaptable child not to mention the overwhelming desire of couples unable to concieve to have a baby. the desire is for the whole experience with that child as close to their birth as possible. |
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Date: 8/26/2003 4:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
Let's further blur all lines of distinction o.k. TS. The statistics you cite are referring to kids that are in a household with same sex parents. Adoption isn't a factor in that necessarily, is it, because one of those partners is more than likely a biological parent of the child. Does the other parner in those situations ever adopt that child? What ARE the statistics on that situation? What exactly are the numbers of gay people adopting a child that is not related to themselves or their partners? God Bless. |
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Date: 8/26/2003 5:10:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
Why blur the lines at all Deb. Why not admit that you do not have any tolerance for gays, as you have so shown on post after post. Since it is obvious that you have a computer and some basic skills, why don't you use your computer and post the statistics yourself. If you want to prove someone one, then you do the work. Don't ask them to do it for you. |
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Date: 8/26/2003 7:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
Base said A LOT in few words. I respect his comment, his thoughts are quite similar to mine. I just didn't do so well. Being "gay" is absolutely no reason not to be allowed to adopt. I've known many gays and transgenders who are the most decent, moral, law abiding and caring people that walk. On the other hand, if I go "way back" in that time machine of my life, I recall several Catholic priests whom WE TRUSTED. The trust was horribly misplaced. A man whom I TRUSTED my daughter to, paid tuition for her to attend a Catholic school I believed in, was quietly sent "away" and yet, we all knew why. I will never trust a label anyone wears, common decency, morals and good judgement do not come from any religion. I'm so sick of the horror stories. When will people be judged simply for being human and what they contribute to humanity? I'm done ranting, thank you very much! |
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Date: 8/26/2003 11:35:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
LoveKitten.... I don't think your criticisms toward Afrowt were deserved. Your saying Afrowt "should come out of the box and stop using the Bible" is very unfair. From what I've seen of Afrowt's comments in general, they're very objective. The understanding you speak of is a two way street. |
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Date: 8/26/2003 11:38:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Doheney.... I think you make some very good points made there. |
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Date: 8/27/2003 12:54:00 AM
From Authorid: 37900
Thanks for your response, Love Kitten. If you are asking me if I believe two gay men can teach a child about women as well as a woman, the answer is no. Furthermore, I do not think gay women can teach a child about men as well as a man. IMO, learning about women and how they think involves more than the ability to fix hair or "act feminine," whatever that means. True, children will interact with other children in school. In that light, how should one teach little Johnny that he has two mommies or two daddies when the vast majority of his classmates will have one of each? Is it possible that childhood is difficult enough without the added confusion of a same-sex couple? Finally, I have befriended three gay men in the course of my life. There may be others I am not aware of. I hope there are more. I don't hate anyone; I was only responding to the question of the post. |
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Date: 8/27/2003 1:24:00 AM
From Authorid: 37900
Thank you for your response, Two Spirit. If I appear persistent on the point of the existence of a "gay gene," it is because I feel it is the pivotal idea of this topic. If it exists, many heterosexual privileges will have to be evaluated. So will many religious beliefs, including mine. To proceed to other concepts without establishing the existence of biologically based homosexuality is analogous to claiming that the inerrant Bible should be followed, without examining the idea of infallibility. On another point, I think the ideal environment for a child is a stable, two-parent home with one man and one woman. Single parents have a much harder job raising children, but it has been done. IMO, gay parents will be unable to provide the balance that every child needs: learning about and dealing properly with two genders. In the situation of gay parents, one gender is excluded. I think that would create profound confusion in a child's mind. |
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Date: 8/27/2003 1:32:00 AM
From Authorid: 37900
Thanks for your response, I'm Z.P. I've never heard that a gay man is a woman's best friend. If gay men can relate to women better, we can learn something from those men. If 99% of criminals came from homes where the parents had never been to prison, would you then conclude that crime was an inherited or a learned response? I believe we must do more than simply assume homosexuality is genetic: the implications for either answer are too important. |
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Date: 8/27/2003 1:33:00 AM
From Authorid: 37900
Thank you for your kind words, You Choose. You have encouraged me. |
Date: 8/27/2003 9:27:00 AM
From Authorid: 27046
TS, I don't know about you, but it doesn't shock me in the least that the bible thumping southern states haven't allowed fostering or adopting yet..LOL  |
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Date: 8/27/2003 10:54:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
TS, why don't you admit that you judge me as an intolerant person to gays without knowing one wit about me and any relationship(s) I have with gays. What I am against is ADDING to the laws already in place because as you have so readily pointed out, gay people are already doing everything else non-gay people do without NEEDING any laws to give them special permission. So perhaps you should practice what you preach which is to come here with FACTS and not opinion. And isn't it a FACT that the studies you cite up there had as a study group kids that were biologically related to one of the partners in a same sex relationship? Yes or no. You put up the information, now use it to support your SUPPOSITION that that is an indicator in THIS issue, i.e., ADOPTION by homosexual people. God Bless. |
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Date: 8/27/2003 3:48:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
Deb, I posted links on my other post to several sites with the facts. Why don't you go read them? Plain and simple, you like to play the old game of me prove myself right, and instead of you proving me wrong. Also, not being knowledgable of the facts concerning gays and lesbians, you do not even know where to start looking. As for changing laws, the old saying is "If you don't like the way the law is written, then do something to change it". That is every Americans right, to have a say in the laws. You may not like it because we want to change the law. I could care less what you like. It is not your life, it is ours. You have a serious problem when it comes to the LGBT gaining full equality. Maybe it is time you get over it. |
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Date: 8/27/2003 5:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
Aah. Your reluctance speaks volumes. I do not have to go to another site to know that you are playing the game of taking apples and trying to compare it with oranges. It is RIGHT HERE, where you made the statement, that I am asking you to be TRUTHFUL about. God Bless. |
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Date: 8/27/2003 8:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 51635
Alfrowl, I personally take offence at the comparison you chose to make between homosexuals and criminals... I know I was born gay, the feelings I have and the attraction I have for other women is all I've ever known... when I finally accepted it, life in general made more sense, my childhood made more sense... And for that matter why should we have to justify how we live our lives to ANYONE? Do you question your sexual orientation? Why question mine?... Bad aprents come in all forms, it just happens to be that most of them are straight, married couples who put up a good front... |
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Date: 8/27/2003 8:51:00 PM
From Authorid: 51635
Deb, the links you aren't looking for are in this post... http://www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm349753.html ...check it out for yourself... |
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Date: 8/27/2003 9:12:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
Deb refuses to check the links. She knows where they are, but she also knows she will be proven wrong. To be honest, she can say what she wants, but read between the lines, and what you have is just another person that hates gays. |
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Date: 8/27/2003 9:54:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Just because someone doesn't agree with a particular issue pertaining to gays, doesn't make them prejudiced and definitely not hateful in all cases. Hate is a very strong word that shouldn't be used casually. If someone consistently accuses others of hatred or prejudice, perhaps they should release the hatred that lies within themself, before searching for elsewhere. |
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Date: 8/28/2003 3:21:00 AM
From Authorid: 47296
No You Choose, you have missed the point entirely with that comment. Deb insinuated that I am a liar, and I asked her to back her accusation. |
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Date: 8/28/2003 4:01:00 AM
From Authorid: 12966
People are NOT born gay!!!! Even IF someone was born with some "gay gene" or whatever doesnt meant they are doomed to live a sinful lifestyle. There is also a gene that causes alcoholism, many people have it, but once they realize they have a problem they can get help. "I was born this way" is NOT an excuss for sin! Some people were born with quick tempers, but that doesnt make it ok for them to get mad and hit someone. I personally do not think people are born gay. All of this so called "proof" you have is a bunch of crap! I do not believe everything scientists say, according to them there was a big boom and this amazing and very complicated world just happened. Well, I know that isnt true, so why should I believe this lie about beinng born gay. All of this is just an EXCUSS for sin! It is a lie straight from hell! When people sin, they dont want to know the truth or they refuse to believe it, b/c satan has a stronghold on their heart. I do not hate gays. I feel sorry for them b/c they are living a lie and they will have to suffer an eternity in hell. So dont say I hate gays, b/c i dont hate anyone. I know a few gay people and I am friends with them. I pray that gays will realize they are wrong and will accept Christ, repent, and change their evil ways before it is too late. |
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Date: 8/28/2003 7:14:00 AM
From Authorid: 15394
and I hope on that great "Judgement Day" that those so sure of thier condemnation of another's sin are measured on the very scale they themselves feel worthy in life to judge another by... you know, in days of old, epilepsy was considered the "devil" and now we know better, so lets hope that someday there is proof enough that people won't judge a person for how they were born. To deny the self is equally as difficult as denying another... good luck to those judged by their own hand |
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Date: 8/28/2003 8:59:00 AM
From Authorid: 59876
lc, you are entitled to believe what you will about whether people are born gay or not. personally i haven't seen irefutable evidence yet in that regard and eagerly await the answer, so myself. i am indecided and frankly it wouldn't matter at all to many if the time were not now for all this great changes coming about. i might point out though that all you speak of is from the standpoint of sin, which is your right, however, many do not believe in sin. is there more to what your objections are, or is it all based on religion? i was just curious. |
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Date: 8/28/2003 9:17:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
TS, where have I said I disagreed with the study you cited? All I have asked you to do is relate it to THIS SUBJECT, i.e., adoption. God Bless. |
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Date: 8/28/2003 5:27:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
TS... My above comment was meant as more of a general one which can apply to everyone, although I have seen you accuse others of prejudice when disagreeing with something you believe. That's all I was saying...didn't mean to offend. |
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Date: 8/28/2003 8:45:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
"I know a few gay people and I am friends with them." How many times have I seen those words? If someone truly "knows" gays, then they know that such people are born that way. |
Date: 8/28/2003 9:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 13119
I know some gay men that have adopted and they are beautiful parents, I would agree wholeheartedly to having gays adopt children, there are so many children without homes and so many people wanting them why not allow some sunshine into that childs life.  |
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Date: 8/28/2003 9:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
Liquid Chicken, you are entitled to your opinion, thankfully it is yours and not the majority. Your comments are chilling. Causes me once again to be thankful NOT to be living in a country like Nigeria, where some of us could easily be sentenced to death by stoning, after being buried up to our necks in sand. |
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Date: 8/28/2003 9:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
And I would stop worrying about others so much, if I were so inclined, to suffering eternity in damnation. Some have a full plate what with judging others and worrying about their "comeuppance". |
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Date: 8/28/2003 9:36:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Brenda, I agree 100%; she is only parrotting that which she was indoctrinated with; only doing what she was told to do and say. I'm just very thankful that I escaped from all that Christian "love". *shudders* |
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Date: 8/30/2003 12:37:00 AM
From Authorid: 27046
LC, do you have any control over the fact that you are attracted to the opposite sex? I have asked myself this ONE question.....setting ALL OTHER thoughts aside. As much I sit here and toil with the notion I cannot figure out why in the world I am attracted to the opposite sex. I know 100% that I am attracted to men and there isn't a single sole on this earth that is going to change that for me. So WHY in the world would you even think for one reason on the other end of the spectrum, that if YOU can't control the fact that you are opposite sex orientated and say "Gee, how could I expect someone else to control what I can't?" Now tomorrow is a new revelation and you must become gay and start loving and living with someone of the same sex as you would with someone of the opposite sex LC. Can you conform to those rules tomorrow? No questions, no arguments, tomorrow you are Gay because everyone said you had to be...are you going to force yourself to live a lifestyle you can't possibly fathom? |
Date: 2/1/2004 6:33:00 AM
From Authorid: 32133
no  |
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1065 Category:(Debate) Created:(8/25/2003 1:13:00 PM)