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Gaily Marrying or Gay Marriages

  Author:  62927  Category:(Debate) Created:(9/10/2006 8:21:00 AM)
This post has been Viewed (2383 times)

Gaily Marrying or Gay Marriages

The institution of marriage is rooted in religion. Unfortunately, due to the majority ethnocentrism and an American tossed salad, marriage is no longer a simple understood notion of joining and being fruitful. Marriage, as an issue, is climbing the political rickety decadent ladder of controversy and the whispers waft vulnerably and equitably from the lynch mobs to the placatory philanthropists. Who has the squarest shoulders and the gentlest hands for our nation to live up to “Bring me your tired, and hungry…?” Maybe an inspiration comes from an old Swedish proverb “When you point a finger, remember that three fingers are pointing back at you.” If I cannot lean on God for guidance, then I will lean on the American value system in the way of “All men are created equal [.]”, and that our American forefathers originally created laws to protect us from bullies. For these reasons, I indiscriminately vote for gay marriages.

Firstly, Bush is a Christian, and this is a fact and his guidance. For this reason alone, he has a right to reserve marriage for heterosexuals. And because this country is founded on Christian theology, he has a right in his reign to reserve marriage for heterosexuals and thus he cannot be faulted for supporting this pillar as not only indiscriminately, but also within his own value system. In trying to find an objective passage against gay marriages this prejudicial passage is the closest definition of marriage within a traditional view as it states that marriage must not be changed to mean merely two consenting persons agreeing to share quarters and start applying to the government and to employers for economic benefits. Marriage must continue to be recognized as the essential unit of a stable society wherein husbands and wives provide a home and role models for the rearing of children (Dec. 10, 2003 on gay marriages, http://www.eagleforum.org/column/2003/dec03/03-12-10.html.) Ironically what’s not said is that heterosexuals are allowed to marry for non-child bearing reasons and enjoy sharing quarters and applying to the government and to employers for economic benefits.

So, not finding support for “no” gay marriages in the present, I look to the past and find acceptance in same-sex marriages (http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_mar3.htm.) In ancient Egypt a tomb discovery of a same sex gay married couple Niankhkhnum and Khnumhotep 1964 in the necropolis of Saqqara, Egypt. This tomb dates to the Fifth Dynasty (circa 2,500 BCE), and shows that homosexual marriages date back over 4 millennia! Roman Catholic Church, a recent book by Yale Historian John Boswell demonstrates that Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches both sanction and sanctify unions between partners of the same sex up until modern times. The churches use ceremonies that are very similar to conventional heterosexual ceremonies. Other countries show same-sex, long-term relationships are publicly acknowledged in ancient Egypt, Greece and Rome, as well as Australia, Europe, India, and Native America. Then I check with current events and find a lack of enthusiasm among the gay community for marriage. Between the June 10 court ruling and Monday, 590 gay and lesbian couples — out of 5,500 couples — have received marriage licenses in Toronto's City Hall. And more than a hundred of them were U.S. same-sex couples that crossed the border to marry. A total of 6,685 same-sex Toronto couples registered as permanent partners in the 2001 census, about one-fifth of the total across Canada.

So with no rush to the altar, what’s all the fuss if only a minority of gays wish to be married? What’s driving gays to marriage? A possible explanation is economics as outlined on the below online site: http://www.religioustolerance.org/mar_bene.htm. On the order of 1,400 legal rights are conferred upon married couples in the U.S. Typically these are composed of about 400 state benefits and over 1,000 federal benefits. • joint insurance policies for home, auto and health; • dissolution and divorce protections such as community property and child support; • immigration and residency for partners from other countries; • inheritance automatically in the absence of a will; • joint leases with automatic renewal rights in the event one partner dies or leaves the house or apartment; • inheritance of jointly-owned real and personal property through the right of survivorship (which avoids the time and expense and taxes in probate); • benefits such as annuities, pension plans, Social Security, and Medicare; • spousal exemptions to property tax increases upon the death of one partner who is a co-owner of the home; • veterans' discounts on medical care, education, and home loans; joint filing of tax returns; • joint filing of customs claims when traveling; • wrongful death benefits for a surviving partner and children; • bereavement or sick leave to care for a partner or child; • decision-making power with respect to whether a deceased partner will be cremated or not and where to bury him or her; • crime victims' recovery benefits; • loss of consortium tort benefits; • domestic violence protection orders; • judicial protections and evidentiary immunity; • and more....

Most of these legal and economic benefits cannot be privately arranged or contracted for. For example, absent a legal (or civil) marriage, there is no guaranteed joint responsibility to the partner and to third parties (including children) in such areas as child support, debts to creditors, taxes, etc. In addition, private employers and institutions often give other economic privileges and other benefits (special rates or memberships) only to married couples. And, of course, when people cannot marry, they are denied all the emotional and social benefits and responsibilities of marriage as well. Research and (life experiences) is suggesting that in the absent of God being a determining factor, economics play an important decision on whether gays push for marriage or not, and the rest of us are running around wasting time on worrying about what a minority can or cannot do. I have a proposal, a simple efficient proposal. Because this is America, land of the free, and marriage is a religious institution, then disband (do not state or federally recognize) the institution of marriage. Instead, hand those who wish to form a solvent structure within a “family hierarchy” the legal requirements to form a partnership together for the business of having a family. Some of the topics that are covered in the two partnership agreement contracts are: Ownership interest, Loans by partners, Allocation of profits, management, duties, salaries and compensation, borrowing money, reimbursement, competition, authority, admission of new partners (by birth or consensual), meetings, and termination and more.

For those who think this is too stuffy for their beautiful love flower, let a religious institution join them, serve them in sickness sorrow and despair, divorcements, and relegate the dispensing of children. People can have both, either, or different marriages with different partners. This solution allows for any one to establish a financial plan and securely raise children or not. There are worse cruelties in life than to worry about a nurturer’s sex orientation or that there are two people or five people in a consensual union. Allow these partnerships to both foster and adopt children and establish routine, domesticity, and economic growth.

Lastly, the issue about Gays in the work force is an issue about nonconformity. Gay CEO’s, bouncers, office clerks, etc are usually socially acceptable if they are not flamboyant. However, this is only fair because society frowns not only on interoffice intimacies, but also on heterosexuals holding hands, kissing, and public displays of affection. These sensuous behaviors do belong behind closed doors and not in hurting the paradigms of those around them. Maybe as an extreme solution is to incorporate into Valentine’s Day a day to show your orientation, so that those that want to attract females could wear green, and those that want to attract men could wear lavender, and those who want to attract more than one partner can wear prints with circles.

Humans depend on prejudices to open-mindedly make their own choices. Race, ethnicity, and sex orientation are the most simple-minded way to develop prejudices so we can decide where we “freely” want to go. I am proud to live in America, be a part of this tossed salad, and hope we keep wrangling over these issues and finally grow into our idealisms.

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Replies:      
Date: 9/10/2006 8:38:00 AM  From Authorid: 47296    Most people do not care about the historical aspects of marriage through the ages. This has been proven time and again. Relgion plays a major role in the thoughts people have today on marriage, but few know anything about the historical stance that many churches took on the issue in the past.  
Date: 9/10/2006 8:45:00 AM  From Authorid: 19772    Very well written. I agree that Marriage should be about love not what church you go to. JMO ~Take care~  
Date: 9/10/2006 8:46:00 AM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 62927    So true because many people argue from the present and what is interupting their lives with little knowledge of the problems roots. Their are always reasons why things are as they are both good and bad and with better communication it is easier to find information on what you feel about.  
Date: 9/10/2006 8:48:00 AM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 62927    Thank you Jynx. Something interesting I just learned that in (where this applies) that at marriage time for Muslims the first wife signs a marriage contract that either states this is a monogomous marriage, or another where including her there can be up to four wives.  
Date: 9/10/2006 8:52:00 AM  From Authorid: 63194    Hmmm... I think marriage should remain between two people - I dont care if its two gay men, to lesbians, or a straight couple - However, I dont like the idea of marrying multiple people.. ... Also - isnt there a high rate of child abuse in polygamist marriages? or is that just something we are told to believe?  
Date: 9/10/2006 8:52:00 AM  From Authorid: 63194    anyways, Celtic river, you are now one of my new favorate USMERS, lol.  
Date: 9/10/2006 8:54:00 AM  From Authorid: 63194    ... that seems out of place - my comments got reversed  
Date: 9/10/2006 9:00:00 AM  From Authorid: 49101    "Firstly, Bush is a Christian, and this is a fact and his guidance. For this reason alone, he has a right to reserve marriage for heterosexuals" you are very misguided if you think it ok for the president of the US to make decisions for the ENTIRE NATION based on his religious beliefs alone. that would make him a King, not the president of a DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY.  
Date: 9/10/2006 9:00:00 AM  From Authorid: 63041    The insight, intelligence, and equal billing for all in this post was such a wonderful thing to read this morning. I can't debate you, I agree, but I had to give you Kudos for such an informative and considerate writing. Bravo!!!  
Date: 9/10/2006 9:02:00 AM  From Authorid: 49101    BTW I not refering to you personally CR, I know your stance   
Date: 9/10/2006 9:03:00 AM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 62927    Oh Beezle Ben You make me feel loved all over. Yes I feel there are a lot of problems in polygamist marriages. However how can I slap them and make them aware that there is more to life than fear and domination   
Date: 9/10/2006 9:07:00 AM  From Authorid: 46530    Marriage is NOT rooted in religion, and existed in the world long before organised faith did. Marriage was a trade of daughter for wealth, livestock or priveledge, and involved a contract between the families involved. The manipulation of marriage by religion involved the control of sex by the church and had little to do with the actual marriage itself  
Date: 9/10/2006 9:54:00 AM  From Authorid: 62220    you forget about the Bible scriptures about God being against hom0sxuality, right? 'Men who lie with men' and 'men kept for unnatural purposes..will not inherit the Kingdom.' Surely, Christians know about those, right?  
Date: 9/10/2006 9:58:00 AM  From Authorid: 11240    So, now we should allow government to be the controller of a person's sex life?^^^ Isn't a person's sex life their personal domain? Why should the government be involved at all in sexual issues? Well, when they involve child sex, individual rights are seen as less important than this society's as a whole, although other cultures do not necessarily agree. But as far as sex between any number of consenting adults, we set no laws. Of course, we have all types of educational organizations (even some funded by the government) letting us know that multiple sex partners increases the risk of STD's. Otherwise, an individual's sex life is theirs to have. So, why should sex life even be an item considered by the government's licensing procedure? What this whole issue comes down to is use of the word "Marriage" and whether the parameters of "Marriage" is up to the government to define. It has been so decided, that in the interests of society, to define "Marriage" as between a man and a woman. Our income tax code is based on the idea of one head of household, their spouse, and their children. Polygamy subverts that designation, hence the whole code is going to have to be changed should we take "Marriage" and the benefits of being in what is now a government-sanctioned definition of "Marriage" out of the U.S. Code. It is suggested in this post that "Marriage" has been an institution accepted for same-sex couples in Ancient Egypt -- and I have to ask, "Did people in ancient Egypt use the English language?" Elsewhere, the author allows for the history of "unions" and "long-term relationships" as the basis for the argument of same-sex "Marriage", when the history cited itself does not refer to these unions or long term relationships as "Marriages". I, personally, do not care if the government calls my "Marriage" a union or a long-term relationship, but I do care that I call my "Marriage" what it is to me, a Covenant From God between my husband and myself. I have long argued this position on this site, and I applaud this author for taking further steps in arguing same -- that marriage should not be a governmental designation whatsoever, but that religions are free to do so decide what "Marriage" is to them. However, I guarantee that when this way of thinking is eventually put into effect, that someone, somewhere will found a church where the holy state of matrimony will be edicted to include that between a man and a goat or a woman and a horse and beastality laws will go by the wayside, ALONG WITH the longstanding societal view of children not marrying. Because, afterall, that too is part of other culture/religions and since we are here trying to make everybody happy on this issue, surely you can't discriminate against any minority group, right? God Bless.  
Date: 9/10/2006 10:08:00 AM  From Authorid: 25390    I can't debate this. You were right on in my opinion.  
Date: 9/10/2006 10:44:00 AM  From Authorid: 62267    I personally do not agree with it...if you let a man and another man marry or a woman and a woman next people will be wanting to marry their brother or sister or uncle or aunt...I think things should be left as they should and I hope they are. But...I am out numbered on this site...Lol. Gay people don't bother me or anything...and I am kinda getting use to it because everywhere you look there they are. It's just life I guess.  
Date: 9/10/2006 10:46:00 AM  From Authorid: 14909    I believe that there is a passage in the bible in which Jesus says the same thing. Jesus says, "It doesn't matter whom you love, just as long as you do love". Something to that matter. This can be taken many ways though.  
Date: 9/10/2006 10:52:00 AM  From Authorid: 62267    He also says man should not lay with man...and he turned thousands of gays and wrong doers into piles of salt.  
Date: 9/10/2006 10:53:00 AM  From Authorid: 63194    Starlit bunny, I assume "men who lie with men" was read in the KJV right? For its original form was "and with a man ye' shall not lay lyings of a woman" - not that a man shall not lie with a man as he would a woman, but that either 1.) the womans bed is sacred, thus two men shall not have homosexual acts in that bed, or 2) two men shall not sleep with the same woman.  
Date: 9/10/2006 10:56:00 AM  From Authorid: 63194    and the same for you freak.  
Date: 9/10/2006 10:58:00 AM  From Authorid: 62267    Well some people interperet things differently Beanzle...There is no one way that any of the Bible can be interepreted...it is interpreted many ways...but God isn't even the debate here I just don't agree with it.  
Date: 9/10/2006 10:58:00 AM  From Authorid: 63194    freaq*  
Date: 9/10/2006 10:59:00 AM  From Authorid: 63194    - so, to use the "a man shall not ly with a man as he would a woman" arguement is not valid in the gay debate, because that is not how the original text holds it.  
Date: 9/10/2006 10:59:00 AM  From Authorid: 63194    freaq, there is a difference between interpretation and translation - that verse, regardless of whether one wants to interpret this way or that, was translated differently in the KJV, giving it an entirely different meaning.  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:00:00 AM  From Authorid: 63194    I dont care what two consenting adults want to do. Whether or not the bible says it is wrong or not, does not matter to me - why should i be concerned what others are doing so long as they are causing to harm to me? I really want to know how homosexuals are destroying america - because i dont see it.  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:00:00 AM  From Authorid: 62267    I know to different people...it's just like candy...you may say it is too sweet and I may say too sour...even in Shakespear things are interpreted differently.  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:01:00 AM  From Authorid: 62267    It is unnatural and like I said...after the gays marry here will come incest being legallized. It's just strange..  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:01:00 AM  From Authorid: 63194    You are missing the point. It has nothing to do with interpetation - it has everything to do with translation - after translation, its fine to worry about interpretation - but interpret the orginal text only - otherwise you are worshipping what man said, not god.  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:02:00 AM  From Authorid: 62267    I don't care what anyone says about the issue...If my child ever turns out gay that won't convert me either LoL. I just don't believe that way.  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:03:00 AM  From Authorid: 63194    That is a small minded opinion, In my opinion. - I dont see incest being legalized whatsoever nor do i see it leading to beastility, Deb, because, whether we want to argue the naturallity (word) of homosexuality or not, to have "relations" with an animal, is argueably much more unnatural - I dont see things like that flying - but we must use fear to prove our points, right?  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:04:00 AM  From Authorid: 63194    Well, nobody is telling to you convert, but you shouldnt have children if you cant accept them for what they are.  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:07:00 AM  From Authorid: 62267    I don't see gay marriage being legallized either..and when I have children they won't be raised around gayness...I will raise my children right. Sure I would love my child if it was gay but I'd never agree with it.  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:11:00 AM  From Authorid: 63194    Define Gayness.  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:12:00 AM  From Authorid: 63194    Do you think seeing a gay person around will turn your children gay? Because if that is the case, then we can wrap it up here because your opinions are no longer based on anything legit, the likes of which fred phelps would teach.  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:12:00 AM  From Authorid: 63194    Trust me, someday gay marriage will be legal in the united states. - it may not be soon, but it will happen.  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:21:00 AM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 62927    Miss C its good to see you. I agree that monarchies are forbidden, but when I vote one of my factors is value in what his political actions result in. If anyone voted on Bush to support gay rights, then they would have to wait four years to undo their lack of research.  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:22:00 AM  From Authorid: 36967    There is Two Spirit, thinks he knows everything of marriage.  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:24:00 AM  From Authorid: 63194    I fail to see how TS is claiming to know everything about it. Did you even read Ts's comments?  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:29:00 AM  From Authorid: 62267    Hopefully I am long gone before it happens Beezle :-)  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:29:00 AM  From Authorid: 63194    Well, my thoughts- - it wont be THAT long.. so... Hah, the funny thing is that it would bother you so much. You cant be very secure in what you believe, its very clear.  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:31:00 AM  From Authorid: 63194    ah, but at the same time, its quite typical of people with your mindset - if its "different" than the whole freedom and liberty thing... you know, the whole pursuit of happiness, just doesnt apply to those unlike you. Its sad, because the world would surely stink if everyone was so disgustingly hateful.  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:31:00 AM  From Authorid: 62267    Trust me more secure than you know :-)  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:32:00 AM  From Authorid: 62267    I'm not hateful just strong minded... and dumb for arguing about this with you...when I already have my way..gay marriage is illegal as for now :-) I don't even have anything to argue about yet. I've got my way.  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:33:00 AM  From Authorid: 63194    Its hard to see. You're afraid.  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:33:00 AM  From Authorid: 63194    No, its not Illegal, its just not legal. that may not be a strong point, but its fact nonetheless.  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:34:00 AM  From Authorid: 63194    So no, you dont have your way, because you havent gotten rid of homosexuals, have you? so, gay marriage has nothing to do with it.  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:37:00 AM  From Authorid: 62267    I told you gays don't bother me...I love gay people! I love all people...I just don't love the fact that things like that are being legallized...we need some rules. Just like legallizing marijuana...I don't agree with it either but alot of people are fighting for it LoL.  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:39:00 AM  From Authorid: 63194    But what rules do we need? Thats where I have the problem "we dont need this, this is wrong" we are never given a solution and we are never given a reason why somthing is wrong, atleast not a legit reason.  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:39:00 AM  From Authorid: 63194    on personal levels, the reasons may seem legit, but rarely on a governmental level.  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:40:00 AM  From Authorid: 63194    As for marijuana, I dont use it - but if i want to, I think I should be able to - it causes much less harm than alcohol. - but that leads to other problems with other drugs and such - but the govt sure could make huge tax profits off it.  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:42:00 AM  From Authorid: 62267    I don't agree with alcohol even LoL. It's dangerous!!  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:43:00 AM  From Authorid: 62267    Okay I've been sittin' here jawin' to you now I'm gonna be late for work! LoL! I doubt it...have to drive fast. Debate more later!  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:45:00 AM  From Authorid: 63194    Drive Slow, its dangerous to drive fast. - alcohol is dangerous! lol.  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:45:00 AM  From Authorid: 63194    lucky me i dont have to work today.  
Date: 9/10/2006 11:47:00 AM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 62927    Good point Ad, but by and large I do not think I am being too prosaic by saying that marriage is rooted in religion. But maybe I should have said that marriage is an institution of religion. But I do not spiritually confuse marriage as a love match whether religious or not tending to your words about trades and contracts. Impeccable wording brings clarity   
Date: 9/10/2006 12:07:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 62927    In my learning, Christianity is not pro- gay because He will vomit them out and we need to be fruitful and multiply. I am sorry we have to go there mentioning beastiality and pedofilia because this is just wrong in any discussion. A huminoid has a scientific description that is different from the animals, and pedofilia clashes with not killing as you destroy their mind frame disabling them from being an accountable adult able to process and dissemenate information and live in non- anarchy (is that a word) Deb, As far as concern of "Why should the government be involved at all in sexual issues" first I am not talking sex here, I am talking relationships that people want documented so they can share the mutual benefits and rights of. Furthermore "whether the parameters of "Marriage" is up to the government to define" is not something I am proposing, it already exists mainly to heterosexuals in the US because even if you have a religious ceremony, you still have to purchase a marriage liscence. My essay though is talking about this and I think that if we allow cognizant humanoids of accountable and reasonable age to be entitled to the same legal rights as most heterosexuals then I think we can move on to other issues of hunger unrest power ect. I just did not even consider these subjects when writing, and thank you for helping my intent to be clearer.  
Date: 9/10/2006 1:14:00 PM  From Authorid: 11240    Ad mentioned the church controlling sex and I went on to ask whether we are now of the opinion that we want the government to control sex. That is why "sex life" got involved in this debate.
But to keep the debate centerd on marriage, "even though you have a religious ceremony, you still have to purchase a marriage license" is not a true statement at all -- plenty of people go throught the ceremonial aspects but never get a governmental sanction of their relationship. And that is NOT AGAINST the law. And in not "mentioning beastiality and pedofilia," which that phrase used to include POLYGAMY just a few short years ago (shall I go get an URL to some of the debates on this site wherein some of the respondents on this post chided others for making the claim that a new definition of marriage would then be open to polygamy???), then aren't you being a bit close-minded? When you open up the parameters of any defined set, then you will only have a new line drawn whereby people on the outside of that new parameter will be clamoring to be included. And we musn't infringe on the minority rights of people, should we, since we have no Supreme Authority telling us whose rights are "more important" than others, as ALL RIGHTS need to be validated, especially those coming from other cultures, so as not to seem culturally insensitive, right? BTW, "cognizant humanoids of accountable and reasonable (oh, yeah, who decides this?) age" ARE entitled to be married. If they do not want to marry a person of the opposite sex, then I have no probelm with them going through a ceremony to vow their undying love to one another AND going to get a legal contract drawn up if what they are joining together for has legal/financial ramifications. God Bless.
  
Date: 9/10/2006 1:43:00 PM  From Authorid: 3321    Did you research the first few paragraphs or just repeat what someone once told you....  
Date: 9/10/2006 1:45:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 62927    Well Freq brought up a leftist idealism with a rightest opinion, and thats a good thing. Marrying bros, sis, aunts uncles, honestly I do not know if this is a biology question, or an ethics question but a point to consider. On purchasing a liscence this is required in all the states I've had dealings with, so point taken Deb. Deb " we musn't infringe on the minority rights of people, should we" when we talk about beastiality and pedofilia I will infringe away. People can call me a closed mined toad faced baboon hater all they want but I will not stand for bestiallity nor pedifillia in any manner.  
Date: 9/10/2006 1:52:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 62927    Hello Persephone. Please come back with something more specific. I am accountable for what I write. Ad brought up a miswording that I have conceeded to. If you have something to say to me that you dont want posted please msg me.  
Date: 9/10/2006 2:24:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 62927    Deb. See the state requirements for marriage http://family.findlaw.com/marriage/marriage-laws/marriage-blood-test.html  
Date: 9/10/2006 4:26:00 PM  From Authorid: 11240    I am well aware of what the state requires for a LICENSE. I am making a distinction between having a LICENSE and have a CEREMONY, of which either are independent on the other in the minds of some people. For the government to recognize certain governmental benefits and responsibilities that the government bestows on married couples, a LICENSE is required. For the couple to pledge themselves to each other in a CEREMONY is between the two of them to come to an understanding as to what benefits and responsibilities (e.g., love 'til death do us part they bestow on each other as a member of the marriage. Some states, but not all, require a ceremony for a marriage LICENSE to be deemed consummated, while a CEREMONY can be had with or without a license, depending on whether the couple is eligible for a license, or if they actually want a license, or even if the presider of the ceremony feels it a necessity for that particular ceremony to be performed. So, by requiring a blood test, you are saying that you favor the government putting restrictions on who can marry, but yet the argument of this "essay" is to expand on those restrictions, and that is all right because YOUR personal standards would be upheld. I get the exact argument in some of these debates that I'm going to give you here, i.e., my standards can't possibly be imposed on everyone. You see, it isn't that it is "your" standards' or "my standards" that set the standard. It is a "reasonable" standard. And "reasonable" is being defined broader and broader these days due to what is called embracing diversity. And if in embracing diversity, you embrace others' cultures and perhaps obscure religions, but then turn around and outlaw some deeply ingrained culture standing, the government sets itself up for the ACLU to come in and defend a minority's rights. Never mind that the majority of people don't want anything to do with this minority's culture or religion -- why, that's racist. A point I made up there bears repeating here again: Just a few mere years ago, gay marriage advocates pooh-poohed the notion that opening up the door for gay marriages opens the door for others, SUCH AS POLYGAMY. And now, here we are, with that exact scenerio before us, and those that ridiculed the idea that polygamous marriages would ever be an issue are now on the bandwagon for same! With the reasoning being that people moving to the U.S. come from different cultures and should be allowed to continue with their ways here! You may totally discount the ideas of cultures with strong ties to pedophilia or fringe sects that practice beastality (and I haven't even touched on incest), but they are out there. Where is the line drawn if it is continually being redrawn? God Bless.  
Date: 9/10/2006 4:35:00 PM  From Authorid: 63194    Deb, who is it to decide what is right? I still dont see how it will open the door for polygamy or beastility or incest - and polygamy really isnt that much of an issue - the people who are guilty of it will go down, we know what the result will be. Perhaps though, we shouldnt allow anyone to be together - it leads to immorality. Heck, if you let straight people get together, the gays are going to get jelous, then the dog lovers.. then the...  
Date: 9/10/2006 4:39:00 PM  From Authorid: 63194    and of all things, we know that given the inability to communicate or ever learn to effieciently communicate, a human and an animal can never certainly consent. It could be equated with pedophelia.  
Date: 9/10/2006 4:40:00 PM  From Authorid: 2030    For Miss C. and the record, George Bush has his views and has asked for legislation, but he has done absolutely nothing that would prevent gay marriage. The individual citizens in many states however have done so. That's how it works.  
Date: 9/10/2006 6:56:00 PM  From Authorid: 62624    Although I do not have anything against gay people, I was raised with religion. I do not condemn gays (have had LOTS of gay friends) but I remain neutral with this.  
Date: 9/10/2006 7:03:00 PM  From Authorid: 3321    Sorry! I was kind of taken aback by this statement, "Firstly, Bush is a Christian, and this is a fact and his guidance. For this reason alone, he has a right to reserve marriage for heterosexuals. And because this country is founded on Christian theology, he has a right in his reign to reserve marriage for heterosexuals and thus he cannot be faulted for supporting this pillar as not only indiscriminately, but also within his own value system." Were this true, this would effectively make him King George...and that's scary! Unfortunately, he and the far religious right do feel this way. Also, the country was primarily founded by Deists and Freemasons, most of whom were not looking to establish a Christian society, so to speak. Yes, they believed in a God, but it would be a mistake to say they intended for this country to be completely based off of and run on religion. That is what they ran away from.  
Date: 9/10/2006 7:09:00 PM  From Authorid: 3321    ALSO, if I might add my own $0.02 in here...being married in a church makes the marriage religious, while also state sanctioned. Being married in a Courthouse, not religious. As much as many of you would love to believe marriage should be confined to a man and a woman, not man/man or woman/woman because of religion and God, the fact is that is not where the basis is now. Government charges taxes, charges licensing, and at this point it is an institution entrenched in government. When the government stuck it's hand into the money pool with marriage, they took away the religious argument against gay marriage. At least that's the logical way to go, but hey, who's logical anymore?  
Date: 9/10/2006 7:19:00 PM  From Authorid: 63194    most people, gay or straight, have been raised with religion, Kim.  
Date: 9/10/2006 8:17:00 PM  From Authorid: 11240    My basis for arguing that marriage should stay the way it is is not based on my religious views. It is based on the tried and true definition that the citizens of the United States have come to rely upon. To claim it as a religious concept (as is this author's contention) leaves open the doorway of freedom of religion to claim other viewpoints of religiously married, such as polygamy. To open it up to another non-religious designation, e.g., to include homosexual couples, opens up the doorway to include other minority groups who wish to marry, e.g., incestuous, pedophilia, bestality. To leave it as it is AND codify Domestic Partnership for homosexual couples keeps the clear meaning defined and closed to other ideas, religious or cultural, that are not part of the landscape of what "Marriage" is today. A simple codified statement, such as, "A Domestic Partnership License issued to a homosexual couple affords the same rights and responsibilities by the states as a Marriage License affords a heterosexual couple," does that. PERIOD. No misuse of language to broaden "Marriage" to mean anything other than it currently does, and no keeping of rights and responsibilities from homosexual couples that wish governmental sanctioning of their relationship. They would still be FREE to have a "marriage" CEREMONY if that is what they so wished to call it, either religious or civil. If we as a country want to continue on being called the UNITED States, then a unified culture is going to be necessary, and what better way to instill CULTURE other than time-honored traditions (and laws!) such as "Marriage" being as between a man and a woman. Oh, and BTW, Ben, I would bet if you looked hard enough you would be able to find some video whereby an animal consenting to having sex with a human would be pretty apparent. God Bless.  
Date: 9/10/2006 8:44:00 PM  From Authorid: 47296    The arguement will never end until such time as there is true equality in this nation. Unfrtunately, some do not know the meaning of that word.  
Date: 9/10/2006 8:54:00 PM  From Authorid: 16671    OH PLEASE BEN show me where this so called Original form is that your talking about? Im laughing my rear end off here. God says the marriage bed is undefiled. Let me ask you a question ben, why is it that YOU BELEIVE, EVERY thing you read, unless its the bible or something about God and Jesus?  
Date: 9/10/2006 9:05:00 PM  From Authorid: 16671    WEll see CR, you say you wont stand for bestialitiy nor Pedifillia in any manner, YET there are lots that are doing JUST that, so how can you deny them their right to do it when it seems normal and natural to them? Personally I"m with you, it stinks, however then why do so many people here on usm have a fit, when I say I would not vote for gays to marry? To me its as wrong as you think bestiallity and pediflia are. NOW lets NOT get the wrong idea as SOME usually get, I'm not saying that gay people COMPARE to bestiallity and pediflia, I"m saying the idea of what each of us personally will or will not allow or care to have it become law and legal can be different. CR would not vote for bestiallity and pediflia to be ok, I would not vote for gay marriages to be ok, others would not vote for a ban on smokes, or a ban on beer or a ban on what movies you can or can not watch. To each person how much they will PUT up with can vary. Do I hate gays? nope never said I did. Never will hate them, they are people, but I still get called closed minded because of things I feel I do not want to allow the county to make OK. So CR if our "will not allows" are not the same, then why not?  
Date: 9/10/2006 9:14:00 PM  From Authorid: 16671    Two spirits your right, to me it should be just as equal to teach devine intervention as a cause of this world being as it is to teach evolution, to me this would be equality, giving people two choices in which to base their truths on. Unfrtunately, some do not know the meaning of that word  
Date: 9/10/2006 10:08:00 PM  From Authorid: 47296    FB, I have no problem with divine intervention being taught, as long as it is not taught as a science. Currently, the only classes in the public school system where it would fit would be philosophy class.  
Date: 9/10/2006 10:09:00 PM  From Authorid: 47296    Of course, not much time could be comitted to it, since you would also have to teach every other religious theory on creation.  
Date: 9/11/2006 2:30:00 AM  From Authorid: 57028    I know this is a version of a very-used example. But for anyone who says marriage is related to religion.

I could get married to a random woman today. Gay couples that have been together for many years... DECADES... they can't get married.
If gay marriage is to be banned, in order for it to be a non discriminatory measure, wouldn't there have to be some sort of oficial validity to any heterosexual marriage? Otherwise the moral guide is invalid.
  
Date: 9/11/2006 6:09:00 AM  From Authorid: 19613    "To open it up to another non-religious designation, e.g., to include homosexual couples, opens up the doorway to include other minority groups who wish to marry, e.g., incestuous, pedophilia, bestality." No it doesn't. Children and animals cannot consent to a contract.  
Date: 9/11/2006 6:34:00 AM  From Authorid: 63194    Its simple FB - it wasnt written in english to begin with - its the english translation that distorted it.  
Date: 9/11/2006 7:50:00 AM  From Authorid: 11240    Uuh, DP, there are cultures in this world where the parent consents to their child being married. And some of these children are very young. And if that culture chose to institute itself into the "multi-culturism" of the U.S. and fight for their minority rights, how do you know that wouldn't eventually be worked into the laws here? You're one of the ones that claimed polygamy would never be a part and parcel to the "gay marriage" debate, aren't you? That's just been in the last couple of years on this site, yet here you are defending polygamy as a valid form of "marriage". How long was it for that to take hold? Two, three years? Every argument you use to defend "gay marriage" and polygamy will be right back here in the forefront when people (and I use that term very loosely) start arguing to marry a family member, a child, or a jackass. But, no, in the "here and now" we've all got to concilitate to "gay marriage" for (and please go read this author's stats) a VERY SMALL MINORITY of people who would even utilize this! But let's open up the floodgates for a little trickle . . . God Bless.  
Date: 9/11/2006 7:53:00 AM  From Authorid: 11240    Equal means "the same". When is a man and a woman "the same" as a woman and a woman? In case you've missed it, TS, there is a difference . . . God Bless.  
Date: 9/11/2006 9:48:00 AM  From Authorid: 19613    Deb,the issue of what constitutes an
adult has nothing to do with gay marriage.
It is a separate issue. The legal status of
gay marriage has no bearing on the legal age of consent.
Whether or not such "minority rights" would ever be
recognised is irrelevant as the arguments
(at least the most sound arguments)
used
to justify lowering the age of consent would not be the
same as those being used to justify gay marriage.
Polygamy again is a seperate issue, and while my position
on polymgamy has never changed, it is again irrelevant
to the issue of gay marriage.
  
Date: 9/11/2006 10:00:00 AM  From Authorid: 19613    With regard to your use of the slippery slope argument in general:

If gay marriage is justified, and the principles which justify it
can be used to justify something else, say polygamy, then the logical conclusion
is that polygamy is also justified.
If you feel that polygamy is unjustifiable, then either the principles which justify gay
marriage are unjust, or polygamy will not necessarily follow from gay marriage.
In the first case, there should be sufficient arguments against gay marriage
without giving examples of what you claim it will inevitable lead to
(ie using the slippery slope argument).
In the second case, using the slippery slope argument is a mistake,
as the two events do not necessarily follow.
In either case, the debate is best served by avoiding the slippery slop argument
and focusing on the initial issue, that of gay marriage and its merits or otherwise,
rather than the possible
consequences.
  
Date: 9/11/2006 10:09:00 AM  From Authorid: 47296    Deb, equeal means the same rights for all, regardless of who or what they or. Of course, some people do not understand that.  
Date: 9/11/2006 10:59:00 AM  From Authorid: 11240    DP, the author of this debate included a statement up there in the original post (paragraph #6 to be exact) to the effect of who cares whether "there are two people or five people in a consensual union." But I'm the one who's put the issue of polygamy on that slope??? And tell me in the other recent "Debate" post on "Polygamy" that you didn't justify "gay marriage" and "polygamous marriage" with the same reasoning, right? Yet, I'm the one that's "slipping" the two into the same category? And, once again, PLEASE, tell me that a few years ago, you were one of the commenters that claimed that the issue of polygamy was just what you're accusing me of now, a slippery slope from the gay marriage issue. TS, every person in the U.S. HAS the same rights: They all have the RIGHT to marry someone of the opposite sex. God Bless.  
Date: 9/11/2006 1:09:00 PM  From Authorid: 47296    Deb, as long as blind bogotry rules in this country, then gays and lesbians do not have equeal rights, and your comments only add to that blind bigotry. You do not believe in equality for all, only equality in as far as it fits your personal beliefs. I will not argue with you on it, since arguing with those that have bigoted attitudes is a no win situation.  
Date: 9/11/2006 1:46:00 PM  From Authorid: 19613    Deb, when I first began to argue for gay marriage, I was not in favour of the idea of legalising polygamy
simply because it is not a type of union I would ever be interested in engaging in. However, on looking
at the arguments I was making for gay marriage I realised that yes you could apply these to
polygamy. The conclusion I drew therefore was that polygamy is justified. However, the principles with
advocate both polygamy and gay marriage exist independently of the issues themselves.
If you accept these principles then you have to accept what follows on from them.
These principles do not allow for legal bestiality or incest, or marrying underage children.
However, if your argument against gay marriage is: "Gay marriage is wrong because it will lead
to polygamy". You have to show that polygamy is inherently a bad thing. This means you end
up debating the merits of polygamy when the issue is gay marriage. It is unnecessary and confusing.
This is not the same as saying, as the author did that it should not matter how many people are in a
consensual union because this statemnent is not part of an argument for gay marriage, rather a
statement about polygamy. To use it in the context of a slippery slope argument is quite a different thing.
  
Date: 9/11/2006 1:47:00 PM  From Authorid: 19613    Also it should be noted that it is technically possible to argue for gay marriage on principles which would still deny the justification of polygamy, although this is probably a weaker position.  
Date: 9/11/2006 1:49:00 PM  From Authorid: 19613    "every person in the U.S. HAS the same rights: They all have the RIGHT to marry someone of the opposite sex", if it was illegal to marry someone of a different race, a similar statement could be made.  
Date: 9/11/2006 4:27:00 PM  From Authorid: 11240    Yeah, yeah, DP, and as the saying goes, "If my aunt had . . ." Anyway, the argument I kept hearing about taking the definition of "Marriage" out of the realm of the government altogether and putting it in the realm of religions was that that would allow polygamy to start being en vogue. But now that the polygamy issue IS en vogue, it is not used as a point AGAINST opening up the definition of "marriage" to religions rather than the government, but rather FOR it. And all of that stemmed from the "gay marriage" debate in case you forgot. So, I am not using a slippery slope -- I am using the REALITY of how the whole issue has EVOLVED. And just as you have been able to now justify polygamy as a viable arrangement, how do you know how other people will be able to evolve their justifications to include bestality, incest, and pedophilia? You were easily swayed -- what makes you think no one else would or could be? God Bless.  
Date: 9/11/2006 5:38:00 PM  From Authorid: 47296    DP, argueing the point on this forum is a lost cause, because you have a select few that everytime the subject comes up will constantly repeat the same thing over and over. If you look back at past debates on the subject, you see the same thing every time, with little worded differently. Bigotry in this nation towards gays and lesbians is very much alive and well. Equality is only a dream that will never be obtained as long as bigotry is allowed to rule. The sad part is that some of the very people that speak loudest about rights and freedoms are the same ones that would deny another equeal rights and freedoms.  
Date: 9/11/2006 10:06:00 PM  From Authorid: 16671    But TS, evolution is still just a theory so they have no bussiness teaching it as science.'''' BEN::''' well of course it wasnt written in english, it was written in hebrew Old testament and greek new testament.Like the earlier English translations such as Tyndale's and the Geneva Bible, the King James Version was translated from Greek and Hebrew texts, bypassing the Latin Vulgate. The King James Version's Old Testament is based on the Masoretic Text while the New Testament is based on the Textus Receptus as published by Erasmus. The King James Version is a fairly literal translation of these base sources; words implied but not actually in the original source are specially marked in most printings (either by being inside square brackets, or as italicized text).

Compared to modern translations, there are some differences which are based in part on more recently discovered manuscripts, e.g. the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1947. Some conservative fundamentalist Protestants believe that the newer versions of the Bible are based on corrupt manuscripts and that the King James Version is truer to the original languages. This preference is partially due to the fact that many modern versions often excise or marginalize certain verses deemed by modern scholarship as later additions to the original text and thus are seen by traditionalists as tampering with the text.
  
Date: 9/12/2006 1:14:00 AM  From Authorid: 19613    As I have tried to point out Deb the central justification behind both Gay Marriage and
Polygamy is that one should allow people to enter into such unions because they are not
inherently harmful. The thinking behind the position is: "well this isn't for me, but it's not harming me
or anyone else
so what right do I have to say they can't?" Clearly this distinguishes the issue from pedophelia and
bestiality
because they do cause harm and both involve parties which are not capable of
giving consent. How do I know how other people will be able to "evolve"
their justifications to include these things? I am not afraid of logic or debate, and reality is not swayed
by
persistent advocating.
  
Date: 9/12/2006 7:56:00 AM  From Authorid: 11240    For the record, Melodious and I were the two on this site who continually argued that the government should be out of the business of "Marriage" altogether, and use the classification of "Domestic Partnership" which would be available to ANY DOMESTIC PARTNERSHIP of two people without regard to the partners' SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP or LACK THEREOF (meaning, as FB pointed out, her two daughters who lived together for some time raising their kids, would qualify to have that relationship given EQUAL RIGHTS as far as GOVERNMENTAL BENEFITS and RESPONSIBILITIES are concerned. DP is on RECORD on one of his own posts as AGREEING WITH THE IDEA, but on SUBSEQUENT POSTS is back to the arguing for "gay marriage" and, NOW, polygamy! What these people are thereby arguing for is for the GOVERNMENT to SANCTION THEIR SEX LIFE. Because if they were TRULY interested in EQUAL RIGHTS, then those EQUAL RIGHTS would be available to ALL people in a Domestic Relationship NOT just those who are in both a Domestic Relationship and a SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP. NOW, the issue of polygamy is being used, along with "gay marriage" as a way to FURTHER EXPAND the governmental sanctioning of people's SEX LIFE, as it has not to do with a partnering of two people, but with as many as you can get to "consent". And the argument is made to allow people to do what they want because it isn't "inherently harmful" but that all these granting of sexual sanctioning wouldn't lead to the argument for additional sexual sanctioning due to the "consent" issue. And further, that a person moving from another CULTURE may be a practioner of some of these different "arrangements" so they shouldn't be discriminated against here in the U.S. DP, first off, you leave out INCESTUOUS marriages, as something that would never come about due to the "consent" issue. Second off, you failed to understand a comment I made up there to Ben about bestality and consent, so I would ask you to read it now. And, third, your idea that all of this governmental sanctioning of sex lifes wouldn't EVER include children fails to take into account both the ALARMINGLY, INCREASINGLY PROLIFERATION of pedophilia and the inevitability of future generations of polygamous and incestuous couplings who are SCIENTIFICALLY known to have increased mental illness issues AND 'not too many smarts', who would be easily swayed to believe in the notion that the government holds no authority to dictate their sex life, PERIOD. As someone who was more than willing to give up a government sanctioning of MY MARRIAGE in favor of an EQUAL DESIGNATION of Domestic Partnership for ALL PEOPLE in such an arrangement, for the record, I HEREBY DENOUNCE MY SUPPORT FOR THAT, since it is obvious to me that we are not hereby arguing for EQUAL RIGHTS for ALL PEOPLE, but SPECIAL SEXUAL SANCTIONING for those who will stop at NOTHING until their OWN "bigotry is allowed to rule." God Bless.  
Date: 9/12/2006 10:56:00 AM  From Authorid: 47296    How blind it is that some people think a relationship means a sexual lifestyle. Call it ignorance, bigotry, or whatever, but what it boils down to is a lack of education on their part. Education is a powerful tool and some should consider educating themselves before speaking out about things that they know little if anything about.  
Date: 9/12/2006 2:57:00 PM  From Authorid: 11240    Two sisters HAVE A RELATIONSHIP, TS. Why are you not worried about THEIR EQUAL RIGHTS? God Bless.  
Date: 9/12/2006 4:22:00 PM  From Authorid: 47296    Deb, read my previous comment. Then you might take the time to better educate yourself.  
Date: 9/12/2006 4:49:00 PM  From Authorid: 19613    I'll try to explain (again).
Incestuous marriages, marriage involving underage children, bestiality. These are ideas which
are abhorrent to many people. Gay marriage is wrong because it will lead to X and X is wrong
is an argument used by many people in the gay marriage debate.
Why will it lead to X? The only way gay marriage or any issue can lead to another issue
is if the reasoning behind the initial issue in question can also be used to legalise these other things.
If I make the initial judgement that it is wrong for a man to steal a car, because theft is wrong, it follows that it is wrong for a man to steal a bicycle or indeed
to steal any possession, so I must make laws to cover all forms of theft because of my initial judgement regarding the car. Accepted judgements on what ought to be have implications
beyond the immediate subject they apply to.

To determine whether or not those judgements which
are used to justify gay marriage would also justify other issues one must look not only at the justification for gay marriage, but arguments against those other issues. Two questions must be answered. Firstly, do these secondary issues violate the reasoning which justifies gay marriage, and secondly, are there valid objections to these secondary issues which do not apply to the initial issue? A good example is the contrast of the issue of polygamy and bestiality. One of the principles behind the justification of gay marriage could be that “traditional definitions are not justified by virtue of their being traditional. Tradition in itself is not a valid reason to deny that the definition of marriage be expanded.” If this reasoning is accepted, it would justify both polygamy and bestiality as well, as neither are traditional relationships. However, there is an argument which exists independently of the gay marriage debate itself which states that “animals are not capable of entering into contracts”. This second line of reasoning eliminates bestiality as an acceptable type of union, yet does not affect the issue of polygamy. By definition each issue in the chain has different factors which
affect it and different arguments which apply to it. As the above example has shown, if an issue is inherently unjustifiable, there will be arguments to refute it. If one claims that gay marriage leads to X and X is wrong, then the reasoning behind gay marriage itself is flawed, but the burden is on you to point out that flaw and defend it as being such. To say that gay marriage leads to X and X is wrong requires you to prove both that X is in fact wrong and that it is an unavoidable consequence of gay marriage. Such a line of argument is unnecessarily complicated. Show the flaw in the reasoning for gay marriage, if it is not flawed then you must accept the consequences as being equally valid, if as you claim they are inherently
  
Date: 9/12/2006 4:51:00 PM  From Authorid: 19613    related.  
Date: 9/12/2006 6:03:00 PM  From Authorid: 62118    Firstborn, where you do think they teach scientific theories? Oh thats right in science, who would've guessed?  
Date: 9/12/2006 7:06:00 PM  From Authorid: 11240    Expanding the definition of marriage for another subset of people leaves out a whole lot of other people who would like their definition of marriage to be included in that expansion. Once the definiton is broadened, then that leads to further broadening as the initial barrier has been broken and the reasoning for that break is that other people have a different idea of what marriage is. The same reasoning can be (and is by YOU, DP) applied to other types of marriages than "gay marriage". TS, it is apparent that YOU have not read my comments otherwise your wonderfully educated self would know what I was talking about. God Bless.  
Date: 9/12/2006 7:43:00 PM  From Authorid: 47296    Deb, you constantly play the slippery slope. You use the word "subset". To you, any couple that is not heterosexual is "sub". I have news for you, they are sub nothing. They are people. Just because you wish to remain ignorant of how others wish to live and why does not mean that our government needs to.  
Date: 9/12/2006 8:40:00 PM  From Authorid: 16671    Well gee rodtod, then creation should be taught in the science class also, as gee Im thinking the sun, the moon, the stars and the universe has something to do with SCIENCE.  
Date: 9/12/2006 8:55:00 PM  From Authorid: 62118    Read it again slowly, I said scientific theories.  
Date: 9/12/2006 8:56:00 PM  From Authorid: 62118    Gee isn't the universe already taught about in science? I remember being taught about it.  
Date: 9/13/2006 2:12:00 AM  From Authorid: 19613    Ok Deb, so in reality what you#re saying is that gay marriage is as a result of the slippery slope created by allowing interracial marriage correct? When laws prohibiting interracial marriage were struck down, this broadened the definition of marriage and let people marry who before would not have been allowed.  
Date: 9/13/2006 7:59:00 AM  From Authorid: 11240    No, DP. What I have been saying for YEARS at this site is if what it is you want the government to do for gay people in a relationship is to give them governmental rights and responsibilities, as they are being discriminated against by not being given those by not having the option of getting married, then such a designation (i.e., government licensing) to that relationship SHOULD NOT depend on anything other than wanting to have those rights and responsibilities inure to a couple who have a relationship WHOLLY INDEPENDENT of any mention of a sexual relationship. But that is not available if you legalize "gay marriages", is it? Because you keep wanting to put restrictions on marriage beyond gays marrying such as relatives marrying. So, how does two sisters living together, raising their kids together, helping each other out in all circumstances get such rights and responsibilites? You say they can't get married because they are blood relatives. So aren't their EQUAL RIGHTS (as given by the government non-existent in your whole argument? What you also don't understand, DP, is that you are the one on the slippery slope. It was the pro-gay marriage position just a few short years ago that polygamy would never be an issue because it affected so few people. Let's take a look at a few people at the core of the whole issue, shall we? We have TS here on this site, who has reported to have sired one child and that child has progenated one child (TS's grandchild). Then we have Warren Jeffs (just ONE of the prototypes of this polygamist CULTURE) who has sired 50 (read that again, that says FIFTY) children who will have progenated (and I'll be REAL CONSERVATIVE here by the time all is said and done, at least 150 offspring who have grown up with the ideas that you DO MARRY your cousins or nieces or aunts or SISTER (if you both are consenting to be the wife of one man, and at a YOUNG AGE, at that, too. And I really don't even want to know what they are doing with their farm animals. Now, how is the mindset of this much larger than one group of people going to exercise their right to petition for governmental changes? Will it be in the interests of that ONE or will it be in the interests of that LARGE GROUP? REMEMBER, DP, it has taken you only three short years to change your mind on this issue . . . God Bless.  
Date: 9/13/2006 9:38:00 AM  From Authorid: 19613    If you could explain something to me Deb, it would help me understand your position far more accurately: How is interracial marriage is not connected to gay marriage via a slippery slope,
but gay marriage is connected to polygamy by one? You said “Once the definition is broadened, then that leads to further broadening as the initial barrier has been broken and the reasoning for that break is that other people have a different idea of what marriage is.” It is my understanding that at one time in the US it was illegal in many states for people of different races to marry. Legalising such unions broadened the definition of marriage and would seem to fit with what you said above. I would like to know why this did not lead to gay marriage but gay marriage would lead to polygamy. What principles in your mind are different in the justification of interracial marriage and the justification of gay marriage?
  
Date: 9/13/2006 11:10:00 AM  From Authorid: 11240    What you are not understanding, DP, is that just because YOU THINK I am using a "slippery slope" argument, doesn't MAKE IT SO! I am using rational thinking taken from the REALITY of the circumstances of what is being presented as argument and extrapolating that REALITY into an intellectual reasoning exercise. I am not doing what you and others do which is to "think, wouldn't it be lovely . . ." and expect that just because I thought it would be lovely that it would actually turn out that way. REALITY just doesn't work that way. God Bless.  
Date: 9/14/2006 12:23:00 AM  From Authorid: 19613    Way to avoid the question Deb and I'm sorry but you are using a slippery slope argument. Here's a definition: "The slippery-slope argument occurs in the following context: A, B denote events, situations, policies, actions etc. Within this context, the proposer posits the following inferential scheme:
If A occurs then the chances increase that B will occur". The slippery slope argument is not necessarily fallacious. Now I ask again, could you please explain to me how the chances that gay marriage will occur was not increased by the legalisation of interracial marriage, yet the chances of polygamy being legalised is increased by the legalisation of gay marriage?
  
Date: 9/14/2006 12:13:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 62927    Beasts and children cannot enter into legal contracts. Logical but tacky I know. Furthermore these scenarios of marriage then significant other, then another divorce marriage divorce ect, we are already winking at serial poligamy and having to pay for this through taxes that the players are not paying. Either go through religion and have the religion pay for the messes, or go through the courts and pay the courts to clean up the messes or when you need protection, widowship, death benefits, child protection (ooo I went there) then be accountable on your own or be prepared to pay interest.  
Date: 9/14/2006 3:00:00 PM  From Authorid: 11240    Uuh, DP, YOU support polygamy as do plenty of other people (go read the polygamy debate AND also this post which advocated polygamy, as I already pointed out). I am not arguing that legalizing "gay marriage" would increase the likelihood of polygamy; I am arguing that I want neither to be legalized, period, because the reasonings put forth by proponents on both issues doesn't stack up to logical analysis OR basic common sense. What I AM SAYING is that to broaden the definition of "marriage" would open up a whole host of issues that the "gay marriage" proponents ARE ALSO NOW advocating (e.g., polygamy! Yeah! That's right -- go read your and TS's comments again on both posts). How am I the one that is slipping down this slope when it is YOU that are advocating both issues, albeit by your claim that you advocate them on individual merits. Well, hon, I disapprove of them on individual merits and any argument you bring up in favor of one, you can see me asking you how you justify it based solely on your agrument points for each individual issues, not on a combination of both issues. And, how is comparing a race issue with a sexuality issue helping you understand one bit of any of this argument? Just give me your independent reasons why "gay marriage" should be legalized. Then, give me your independent reasons on why polygamy should be legalized. I will shoot down both of your reasonings with logic that is independent of the other. So, please, if you want to argue one, or the other, any more here, just bring it on. God Bless.  
Date: 9/14/2006 3:36:00 PM  From Authorid: 47296    Seeing as how the sanctity of marriage among heterosexuals is a laughing matter today, you would think that the homophobic right would welcome those that have shown the willingness to stay comitted to one another. Now, I am sure some of the responders will say that they are no homophobic, but truthfully they are, if they are not willing to allow gays and lesbians to have the same rights as they do. Either that, or they are a bigot.  
Date: 9/14/2006 5:25:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 62927    LOL Two Spirits. Unfortunately marriage in the current definition is a laughing matter. I will take it further and sometimes is kept more in some of the ancient traditions like "gain" than we think. No I personally have not met a successful homesexual couple, but child psychology studies reveal that children of same parterners do not grow up gay and are more comfortable with their orientation. Furthemore I have met a few as the lessor than the average of successful families but all of these families had one thing in common: a faith that they believed in (personal experience only). Anyway my debate is not about that but to digress to Debs poligamy issue. There are federal laws for continuity of the states that all states have to acquice to, and if not in violation then states have atonomy then down to towns etc. I believe that the federal law pertaining to bride minors should be reviewed and addressed. my only issue is that a law that pertains to one sex, ie marrying girl children should give a lot of latitude because this does not affect the male... don't no how to say this but here in the US we all should be given a fair opportunity at our own personal autonomy and progressiveness.  
Date: 9/14/2006 7:13:00 PM  From Authorid: 11240    How does the government make heterosexual marriages holy, TS? For someone who does nothing but come in to this post and put labels on people who oppose your opinion, e.g., bigoted, homophobic, and not educated, your response shows not one bit of intellectual reasoning as to what it is the government is doing when it sanctions (which, BTW, has a wholly other meaning than sanctity a marriage. Author, I would respond to your comment if it was at all decipherable. God Bless.  
Date: 9/14/2006 7:25:00 PM  From Authorid: 47296    Deb, when it comes to laws for or against marriage, it is not the government that decides, but the people, or have you not noticed the recent balloting in many states. Why are people voting down any legal recognition? The biggest reason is because their chruches are speaking out against it, and pushing the members to vote against it. They are not educating people to hard cold facts. They are playing on the fears of people, rather than speaking truth. It is in fact religion that is keeping marriage the way it is now as defined by our government.  
Date: 9/14/2006 8:19:00 PM  From Authorid: 62599    Said it about as well as it could be said.  
Date: 9/15/2006 1:54:00 AM  From Authorid: 19613    Deb, you said “I am not arguing that legalizing "gay marriage" would increase the likelihood of polygamy (being legalised?)” then about two sentences later you say “to broaden the definition of "marriage" would open up a whole host of issues that the "gay marriage" proponents ARE ALSO NOW advocating (e.g., polygamy!).”
This is confusing at best.
I personally believe that the best argument for legalising gay marriage relies upon precepts which if accepted, would necessitate some form of legalised polygamy.
Regardless you did imply that you could argue against gay marriage without bringing issues such as polygamy into it. Here are my independent reasons why gay marriage should be legalised Deb, fire away:
Accepting that:
A: Homosexuals should not suffer discriminatory laws which deny them rights open to heterosexuals. B: Homosexuals in many places are denied rights afforded to married heterosexual couples (hospital visitation rights, pensions, inheritance and so on) C: The word “marriage” is not confined to exclusively religious unions. D: there is no practical purpose to verbally distinguish between a union between people of the same or of opposite gender. E: Legalised homosexual marriages would do no tangible harm to ANYONE.
Therefore, gays should be allowed to marry : )
  
Date: 9/15/2006 2:02:00 AM  From Authorid: 19613    In anticipation of an argument to the effect that Cvil Unions would confer equal rights to homosexuals:
For the purposes of the argument, I will accept this. However, so would marriage. Since the word and concept of marriage is not confined to a single religion and the state of being married is not predicated on heterosexual sex, there is no need for a new and separate term to distinguish homosexual unions. If we assume that the majority of homosexuals would rather their union be called a marriage as opposed to a civil union, then it is logical to legalise homosexual “marriage” rather than “civil unions”. I have no idea if you will bring this point up, but I thought it likely that you might. Anyhow, I await your logical rebuttal with anticipation.
  
Date: 9/15/2006 2:09:00 AM  From Authorid: 19613    Oh, almost forgot. You asked “how is comparing a race issue with a sexuality issue helping you understand one bit of any of this argument?” what both issues have in common Deb is that they sought to expand rights to people within the context of marriage laws. If at one time in a country it is illegal for a white person to marry a black person and then this is made legal, that qualifies as broadening the definition of marriage whatever way you look at it. If I want to marry a man because I am attracted to him yet the government tells me I can’t, I do not see a substantial difference if the reason is because I am also a man, or if it is because I am a white woman and he is a black man. Thus it would have helped me understand your position if you explained to me through that impeccable logic of yours, how the issue of interracial marriage is substantially different to that of gay marriage while the issue of gay marriage opens up issues such as polygamy. I only ask to be shown the error in my logic.
  
Date: 9/19/2006 8:07:00 AM  From Authorid: 11240    First off to TS, I am saddened to know that we will not be debating any longer. To DP, EQUALITY means for all people. I know you do not live in America so your perception of what benefits the government gives "married" people is probably not fully cognizant of how inequal it would be to add another small group of people to the people already receiving favorable discrimination from the government. If the government's policy is to help families, then the fact of a couple being "married" should not be the contingency relied upon, regardless of whether that couple is homosexual or heterosexual. You and I have been through this -- go read some of your own old posts to show how you were very much in agreement with me on this at various times in the past, but now are back to your "emotionalism" on the whole issue. It matters not one wit whether I argue on any of your other points since your concept of what rights and responsibilities the government of the U.S. affords "married" couples has the same result: Expanding the definition of "marriage" in any way which then gives rise to an increased amount of people having discriminatory rights STILL LEAVES OUT SOME PEOPLE in the equation of governmental rights, regardless of their "marriage" status. God Bless.  
Date: 9/20/2006 6:48:00 PM  ( Admin-PK )   i think everyone should be able to get married as long as they are of legal age and its only two people
Date: 9/20/2006 6:59:00 PM  From Authorid: 17516    Admin PK, may I ask why you make the requirement, only 2 people? There are many people in this country who are engaged in polygamous marriages. They live together as husbands and wives and have children. They own property together and generally mix their affairs together. If the purpose of allowing gay marriage is to protect these rights for a gay couple, then why should polygamous families be afforded these same rights?  
Date: 9/20/2006 7:00:00 PM  From Authorid: 17516    Oh, and sorry for just jumping in here. I only had time to read the article and skim over some of the replies. But Admin PK's limitations made me wonder why he (she? sorry I don't know you) would say any marriage is okay, but only for 2 people.
  
Date: 9/20/2006 7:50:00 PM  From Authorid: 17516    Oh, and sorry for just jumping in here. I only had time to read the article and skim over some of the replies. But Admin PK's limitations made me wonder why he (she? sorry I don't know you) would say any marriage is okay, but only for 2 people.
  
Date: 9/21/2006 5:09:00 PM  From Authorid: 19613    Deb, please explain exactly which discriminatory rights based on one's marital status are unjust?  
Date: 9/21/2006 5:11:00 PM  From Authorid: 19613    If one accepts what you claim then it nevertheless follows that expanding rights to a larger group of people means there are less people to suffer discrimination. There may still be some people left out, but how is this a less preferable situation than before? If you offer no practical solution then your point is moot.  
Date: 9/21/2006 5:14:00 PM  From Authorid: 19613    “If we give aid to this country there will still be other countries in need of aid, therefore we should not give anybody any charity.” Wouldn’t that fit with what you’ve just said?  
Date: 9/22/2006 2:54:00 PM  From Authorid: 11240    Asked and answered: http://www.unsolvedmysteris.com/usm371407. God Bless.  
Date: 9/22/2006 2:56:00 PM  From Authorid: 11240    BTW, leaving "less people to suffer discrimination" isn't very EQUAL, now is it? God Bless.  
Date: 9/22/2006 2:57:00 PM  From Authorid: 11240    And your analogy absolutely does not fit into my stated and oft-repeated position. God Bless.  

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