Date: 11/5/2005 9:32:00 AM
From Authorid: 62100
I think that you bring up some very good points, altruism is a fine ideal, but you're right..it is rarely a reality..I think it IS possible for people to truly live within that ideal, but it is a rarity to be sure. I myself try to live a good honest life, and work hard to make my dreams come true and also help those that I love have all that they want and need...and I admit..knowing that I can help with that makes me feel good...so is it completely altruistic behavior on my part? Probably not... In all of my relationships with others, be they acquaintances or good friends, people that I have known only a short time, or for years..or even with my least favorite people I always strive to be honest...and it's not so much for their sake, although I feel that they deserve that at least...but also for my own conscience..I don't like lying and would not expect one to do so to me..so I will not do it to someone else..we may not always like what we hear, but at least being honest means that my integrity is intact and that when I speak, people know that they can trust me and count on me. Definitely for my own peace of mind as well as for others....and you're right, we all do so need that attention factor..even those who are negative and morose, whiny and seeemingly apathetic act in those ways to recieve attention...even if it's negative, people are paying attention. I like your post, I'll check back to see what others have to say..  |
Date: 11/5/2005 9:37:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 42792
thanks for your input.I do believe that some people are more honest and caring than others but maybe those people are the ones who figured out that is how they can truly experience some type of happiness.  |
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Date: 11/5/2005 9:39:00 AM
From Authorid: 62100
Good point, I agree...and on the flip side you have those bitter folk who wouldn't help anyone because they figure life has handed them lemons and they like to see others suffer..it brings them some type of satisfaction factor to know there are some worse off than them..it's kind of disgusting, but a fact..... |
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Date: 11/5/2005 9:49:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 42792
so very true and that is where I am planning on going with my book. It's freaking hard to write a book. I have gained a lot of respect for writers over the past few years as I have attempted more than once to get a book done....ugh |
Date: 11/5/2005 10:14:00 AM
From Authorid: 21435
Hiya, NKA!  "Everbody wants something" Everything that I do is self-serving. After reading your post, (which I will add, was so well written I could not "honestly" say otherwise. So, I concur...hehe..(I'm not much of a debater, am I?) Now, for your book. Exciting!! If you set your mind, then...it shall be. Best wishes, my friend. Write on....  |
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Date: 11/5/2005 10:16:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 42792
thanks, my friend I am going to work on it little by little. It is quite daunting work but I think it will be worth it |
Date: 11/5/2005 10:41:00 AM
From Authorid: 62849
I read some articles much like this for a class on human evolution and ecology. Yes, altruism is rare. But look at it from an evolutionary perspective. Survival depends on worrying about yourself, and so reciprocation is what makes us keep on keepin' on. Not altruism. -Beags  |
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Date: 11/5/2005 10:42:00 AM
From Authorid: 62849
Duh, LOL.. I wasn't arguing with you.. I don't know why I said "But look at it from.." Take the "but" out of there. -Beags |
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Date: 11/5/2005 11:04:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 42792
LOL, I got what you meant. I think more of us need to be aware of it... |
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Date: 11/5/2005 1:45:00 PM
From Authorid: 62100
Good point Beags..totally didn't think of that aspect.. |
Date: 11/6/2005 11:30:00 AM
From Authorid: 55967
I would say this about the point I see here. You are very right, but limited in scope. What I mean is yes, the second a life is born into this physical world until it dies, every thought and action will always have behind it a give and take, a sharing, an "I'll do this because I need that." Always, and in every relationship, this can be seen at some level. It is not bad, it just is. And it is very necessary in order to live. Looking just at the physical world, ultruism cannot exist. However, there is something more. Something above the physical, something deep inside every person. It is unchanging Love. Actually, it's in everything, not just people. It is always the same above the ever-changing physical world. Many people no longer see it at all in the kind of lives they lead, but it is there through study of works and experiences and through meditation and prayer. No, this is not a "religious" type of thing, it just is. The ancients had up to four different words for "Love" and the Highest, "Agape" (pronounced "ah-GOP-ay" is that love where no matter what happens, there is a full acceptance of whatever it is, even of pain and death (which represent changes like everything else).  |
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Date: 11/6/2005 2:05:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 42792
I still believe even with what you are touching on that it (it being love) is still void of altruism. |
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Date: 11/6/2005 6:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 55967
Do you mean that all Love is based on give and take? On always wanting something for giving something? |
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Date: 11/6/2005 8:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 62849
Gypsyhawk- to some extent, yes. I don't think any love is unconditional. It would be very hard to remain in a relationship if you loved another person and that person did not love you back. It's not always an equal give and take, but you get the idea. -Beags |
Date: 11/7/2005 3:21:00 PM
From Authorid: 29387
You seem to be hinting at some sort of theory where relationships are Darwinian. The human race is predicated on self-survival and self-nourishment, and relationships answer some of those hungers, so to speak. While I still fawn over the myth that a relationship could be altruistic and loving, most are not, and instead are false and gilded. It's a depressing premise, but evidence points to it.  |
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Date: 11/7/2005 4:02:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 42792
not necessarily give and take. That is way too simplistic. More like give and receive even if by proxy... that is even simplistic... anyway I'm not planning on basing my entire book on the subject but I thought it would be something interesting to discuss as I was writing it. |
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Date: 11/7/2005 4:04:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 42792
mik12, yes, sad but true... I think even the greatest love stories can be broken down and summed up to be two people who were just really fantastic at positive manipulation. usually one dominant and one passive. Rarely do you find a true balance in a relaionship, meaning that both are equally giving and receiving... |
Date: 11/11/2005 8:24:00 AM
From Authorid: 63041
I will not debate this. I can't... truth ... at least for me... pours out of this window. One thing you said really struck me... "What goes around, comes around". I live by this sentence in what you said following. I truly try to give to my relationships what it is I wish to get back. And the hard part comes when it doesnt happen. Is this manipulation? Could be.. but as you said... manipulation is also part of all things in human existence. Every choice we make, is a form of manipulation. We choose based on what we percieve or wish the outcome to be... how we wish our lives to go forward..therefore, we manipulate our surroundings and our future by the choices we make. Selfish is the human condition. I think the only reason this is so rarely said is the bum rap that word takes so many times. Selfish does not go hand in hand with "bad". If everyone treated those we loved, or hated, or were indifferent too... in the way that our core... the true selfish wanting needy part says we wish to be treated... good lord... wouldn't this almost be the answer to harmony and balance...and eventually peace? Such a wonderful write my friend. I love your bluntness and no nonsense approach to even something as abstract as love. Well done.  |
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Date: 11/11/2005 4:31:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 42792
thank you for that reply. You have such an eloquent way of putting things. The killer in all of this is knowing it but somehow letting it slip away and not always living it. I get distracted with so many things that I forget what I know. How insane is that? I forget what I know. |
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Date: 11/12/2005 10:03:00 AM
From Authorid: 55967
Yes, I totally agree with you and Beags as far as the physical world goes. Like I stated, when you are born until you die, everything is on some conditinal basis, even Love on this level, even if "by proxy," the person still has a condition for themselves even if just some sort of fulfillment. In this world, ultruism is not practical, and could not exist. Nor should it. However, I was introducing something else. Perhaps this doesn't have much to do with ultruism per se, but it is something that transcends individualism. What we have been looking at is simply one individual in relation to others for one's own benefit. However, I can see where deep inside everyone there is that thing, the "Life Force" if you will, that pervades everyone, and is the same in every living thing. One can go to this "Pure Awareness" deep inside themself, where their physical interests and cultivated personalities do not exist. People in deep meditation are there, and it is pure peace. Nothing physical matters, because this Force cannot lose or gain anything; it just is. Some people have been able to live almost completely from this Source, but it means dropping your ego and all the physical worldly things you love on this level. It is what Buddha called Nirvana, and it is what I see as Jesus calling The Kingdom of Heaven. It is what radiates "agape," the Highest Love that cannot be shaken. Like I said, it may not have to do much with ultruism itself, but I wanted to introduce it as something that shows that there may in fact exist something above physical animalistic give-and-take I-give-only-because-I-need type of living. I do not see the ultimate end being there; it goes on. |
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Date: 11/12/2005 10:11:00 AM
From Authorid: 55967
Note: "it means dropping...all the physical things you love on this level." I don't mean you have to literally leave your spouse, sell your house, and move to a deserted island to reach this level. It does mean literally dropping your ego, which is built on fear anyway, and keeping this Force as the top priority while going about your daily life, living "in the world, but not of it." Money, relationships, stature, all of that are NOT bad in themselves; it's when any one of them becomes a top priority. When that happens, fear creeps in and guides your life. |
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Date: 11/12/2005 10:32:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 42792
Actually, I think to reach that level you very well may have to drop everything. I think you would need to release some sort of centrifugal force equal to or greater than the centripeta force around you. I think, to me, what you are describing is fundamentally becoming one with what we are already of. I think even that could be perceived in some way as being selfish and I wouldn't call it love by any means. I think love is a crutch that we humans use for pleasure and sometimes even for pain. I don't think such a thing resides outside of our inconsequential realm, at least not as most of us would define it. I have often thought about what you have briefly touched on here. It's quite interesting. |
