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Date: 12/19/2004 1:26:00 PM
From Authorid: 53961
Cute! Thank you! Merry Christmas! (pet peeve - Merry X-Mas!)  |
Date: 12/19/2004 1:28:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Hey Paula, I think sometimes people go xmas, just because its shorter then writing christmas. But I do understand your pet peeve.  |
Date: 12/19/2004 1:31:00 PM
From Authorid: 4144
HEY HEY Paula! don't like X-Mas either even though I am guilty of doing it myself when i am in a hurry! ya'll, i think we should allowed to display whatever we want and for those that don't like it, they can turn their heads and look the other way. that's what i would do if i saw something that i didn't like or believe in. this PC crap is getting out of hand.  |
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Date: 12/19/2004 1:44:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
I agree MB, I mean dont we look away or change the channel when shows such as queer eye for the straight guy comes on? If a religious show comes on that we dont agree with, dont we turn the channel? If we choose not to watch shows like the charmed ones. * by the way I love that show, LOL* we can and do turn the channels. Dont our kids have to put up with things such as new age stuff taught in schools? With evolution part of the school stuff, amoung other things? Were suppose to be tolerant of same sex people kissing on tv or in real life. Were suppose to be tolerant of everyones religion and beliefs, yet what ever happen to tolerance for our end of things? |
Date: 12/19/2004 2:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 62682
Amen and GREAT post FirstBorn...Thank you for sharing this  |
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Date: 12/19/2004 3:28:00 PM
From Authorid: 4144
right firstborn. why is it that certain ones can cram crap down my throat but i can't cram mine down theirs?! well, i really don't try to do that cause i don't like it when people do that to me. BUT, the way i see it is if for example, the jehovas wittness comes to my house i will say whatever i want and they can shut up and listen or leave. |
Date: 12/19/2004 3:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 18516
Great post FB! I'm a bit frustrated with the fact that they are barring the christian religion out of everything nowadays. I'm all for respecting people of different religion but if they are going to ban christmas and anything revolving around christian belief out of the school systems then I believe all these other holidays should be banned as well. I find all this ridiculous.  |
Date: 12/19/2004 4:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
Actually, many of the origins of the symbols and traditions you speak of began in Scandanavia and Rome before the birth of Christ. The christian religion did not come to Scandanavian countries until after 1000AD, where evergreens were already part of the festival of the winter soltice. The giving of gifts began in the Roman Empire as part of their winter festival about 100BC. It is known fact that many of the traditions and symbols of Christmas originated in the beliefs of other people, many before Christ was ever born. I have no problem with people using the holiday to honor he birth of Christ, and do not care for all the hoopla some create in trying to get various aspects of the holiday removed. Whether people call it Christmas, Yule, Kwanza, Hannuka, or whatever, it is basically a time of year to celebrate the birth, or rebirth. It is also the one time of year when all should put aside their differences, as was done in Rome prior to Christ birth, and remember that we are all of one race and breed, the human race and breed.  |
Date: 12/19/2004 4:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 62801
I wish we celebrated Christ's birthday on a different day, consecrated just for Him. The Christmas holiday has pretty much nothing to do with Christ and I feel it dishonors Him quite a bit. I associate Christmas with commercialism and greed more than anything else. For tha majority of people it's, "Guess what *I'm* getting for Christmas," it's not about Jesus. Throw in Santa, who is one of the most sacrilegious figures I can imagine, and I doubt Christmas is pleasing to God at all. If we really wanted to honor Jesus' birthday, I think the day would be better spent in fasting, prayer and deep repentance.  |
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Date: 12/19/2004 4:11:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
I would add one thing. Growing up and going to school in a military town, there were quite a few kids who were of various religions. If these kids took off from school to celebrate their religious holidays with their parents, they were given an unexcused absence, because it was not a holiday recognized by the school board. The only religious holidays the schools recognized were Christams and Easter, both Christan holidays. All through school those of other religions were discriminated against. Now people wonder why things are going the other way. |
Date: 12/19/2004 4:50:00 PM
From Authorid: 19613
No offence but you Americans all seem a bit screwy when it comes to any kind of religious issue, whether it be christian conservatives being all preachy or paranoid liberals trying to make Christianity into something that's ok as long as you do it in the privacy of your own home and don't expect the rest of us to be ok with it (sound familiar?  ) Seriously though, I think both sides should loosen up, it's not gonna kill anyone to acknowledge the good parts about Christianity.  |
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Date: 12/19/2004 5:37:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Thanks Hummingbird and your welcome. MomaBug, LOL, I know I did that to two little mormon boys, they wanted to talk LOL, so did I. Needless to say they didnt come back like they said they would. LOL LEMON, yep that is how I see it. |
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Date: 12/19/2004 5:43:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Two Spirts, thank you for that information. I just wish people would let each other worship the way they wish on this day. It shouldn't have to even belong to anyone but to all and others shouldnt get in a snippit when a tree is put out or a nativity scene is put out, its not like its something that is either going to make or break their day. LOVE IS ALL, very well said, but as I said in the post, its not a matter of if its the birth of Jesus as it isnt, it isnt the matter of how bad christmas is commerlized anymore, but it a matter of those that wish to give Jesus this day, should be able to do so. Seems everytime I click on the news in these past few weeks, its some organization or the other trying to get rid of anything to do with Jesus or Christianity, and if we allow this at this time then it can only get worse. If this nation , according to a lady I saw on cnn today, is 90 percent Christian like she says, then by golly we need to stand up and not let the few get away with taking away our rights to worship and free speech. |
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Date: 12/19/2004 5:49:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
TwoSpirits, I think that sucks, Yet by golly lets give them an excused absence for one or the other of the presidents birthday and such. DarkPhoenix, nope its not going to kill anyone. In some countries it could and has and still is going on. Like say in your country? Oh and no offence taken. |
Date: 12/19/2004 7:12:00 PM
From Authorid: 58308
*Standing Ovation* Absolute Wonderful post, FB!!  |
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Date: 12/19/2004 7:20:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Thanks zeebs, glad you enjoyed it! |
Date: 12/19/2004 7:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Perhaps where you are it would seem to you that Christian holidays are being targeted. However I will be marching into my daughter's school office BRIGHT and early tomorrow morning to DEMAND that they remove ANYTHING at all to do with Christmas considering they pretty much cancelled Halloween all together. There were no decorations, they weren't allowed to dress up and the party was come and celebrate the "fall" holiday season. On the contrary, everything and anything to do with Christian holidays is VERY MUCH acceptable and the others are completely taboo.  |
Date: 12/19/2004 8:21:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
Hi, FB. Honestly, this really has gotten to be so much far removed from what Jesus lived his life here on earth FOR that I find the irony laughable. The crass commercialism and need for people to make such a big deal about NOT celebrating or acknowledging "Christmass" is the very antithesis of he for whom this particular holiday is named for. March on. God Bless.  |
Date: 12/19/2004 8:29:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
No religion in the schools but they still take their Christmas break? What is it they call that again?  |
Date: 12/19/2004 8:41:00 PM
From Authorid: 4309
Had a great comment about this being truely a Pagan Holiday and was converted to appease Pagans not Christians. How it was a celebration of Saturn(Kronos) starting Dec 17 ,Mithra, other activities of the winter soltice up to January first like the Festival of Kalends etc.. During this they exchanged gifts (Saint Nicholas wasn't the first and no book made him up just the reindeer part. He did exist should make that one clear), refrained from working, and even sometimes freed slaves for a short time. 336Ad was the marking of the "Christmas" as you think of it and it was named the Feast of the Nativity. It was never named Christmas till about the 13th century when it was converted from Christes Maesse which is the Festival of Christ. It was named Christes Maesse about 1050 AD. X-Mas ,X being the greek letter for chi, abreviation for Khristos or Christ, which represents the cross he was on since there where no t crosses but X crosses in that time of Crucifixtion and all. As far as Religeon in the shools. They should not be there. Period. Christianty is not targeted (Heck just try to say Allah once there heh. More so then ever is that targeted) more then others. If a child brings a card with Jesus in it then it should be tooken away and the Parents should be fined. Its their fault. Who is to say that the child he gave it to no matter if he believes in Christ or not will have parents that will sue and they could believe in anything including Satan for that matter. Not right to push his religeon right . The teacher is a blatant push of religeon. If they want religeon there are Vouchers and there are Christian Schools  |
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Date: 12/19/2004 8:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 4309
My comment that was great before my last one was too long so I got logged off as I wrote it. It was better in detail. Ah well.. |
Date: 12/19/2004 8:58:00 PM
From Authorid: 62267
Good post. I agree with ya!  |
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Date: 12/19/2004 9:03:00 PM
From Authorid: 4309
Christmas break is a national holiday. I would not want to associate with that just on premise. Look at Columbus day. Columbus was a horrible man and everything in "textbooks" herofy and lie basically about him. Remember January 6th was the original day of the celebration of Birth/Baptism and was Dec 25th was basically forced. |
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Date: 12/19/2004 9:04:00 PM
From Authorid: 4309
Here |
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Date: 12/19/2004 9:12:00 PM
From Authorid: 4309
http://www.gobedo.com/christmas1.htm We have come to that time of year again that Christians celebrate the birth of Christ. The holiday we call Christmas. Yet no where in the Bible do we see the early Christian church celebrating the birth of Jesus. First century believers did not celebrate the birth of Christ. Second century believers were reprimanded for trying to choose dates for the birth of Jesus. In AD 354 December 25th was listed as a pagan holiday on the calendar and it was only accepted as a Christian observance in the 5th century. It makes many angry when we step on their toes about the traditions of men being brought into God's church, but here are the facts. The only church that Christmas is celebrated in is the church of man's tradition. You decide. God has never accepted pagan practices with His worship. In Exodus 32 when the golden calf was built and the celebration was declared "a feast unto the Lord," God wanted to destroy the people and had not Moses pleaded with God He would have. Exodus 32:5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD. God commanded in Exodus 20:3 Thou shall have no other gods before Me. Notice the word "before", this means not to do anything in front of Him. So you say we don't worship a calf. But the people had declared a celebration to honor God that He didn't recognize as being in His honor. Has God told us to take something that is pagan in nature, Christmas, and offer it in His honor? Do you get the point. Even though we do not bow down as sun-worshippers we do declare some thing that is pagan in nature, "a feast to the Lord." The church at Rome assigned December 25th as the date for the celebration of the feast around AD 320 to 353 after the triumph of Constantine. Christians were celebrating Christmas on that day by the end of the fourth century. The source of the celebration of December 25th is the birthday of Mithra, the pagan sun god. Encyclopedia Britannica Reading in the Incarta Encyclopedia: II.Origins of Christmas Historians are unsure exactly when Christians first began celebrating the Nativity of Christ. However, most scholars believe that Christmas originated in the 4th century as a Christian substitute for pagan celebrations of the winter solstice. Before the introduction of Christmas, each year beginning on December 17 Romans honored Saturn, the ancient god of agriculture, in a festival called Saturnalia. This festival lasted for seven days and included the winter soltice which usually occurred around December 25 on the ancient Julian calendar. During Saturnalia the Romans feasted, postponed all business and warfare, exchanged gifts, and temporarily freed their slaves. Many Romans also celebrated the lengthening of daylight following the winter solstice by participating in rituals to glorify Mithra, the Ancient Persian god of light (see Mithraism). These and other winter festivities continued through January 1, the festival of Kalends, when Romans marked the day of the new moon and the first day of the month and year. Roman Catholics first celebrated Christmas, then known as the Feast of the Nativity, as early as 336 AD. The word Christmas entered the English language sometime around 1050 as the Old English phrase Christes maesse, meaning "festival of Christ." Scholars believe the frequently used shortened form of Christmas—Xmas—may have come into use in the 13th century. The X stands for the Greek letter chi, an abbreviation of Khristos (Christ), and also represents the cross on which Jesus was crucified. Mithraism, one of the major religions of the Roman Empire, the cult of Mithra, the ancient Persian god of light and wisdom. In the Avesta, the sacred Zoroastrian writings (see Zoroastrianism) of the ancient Persians, Mithra appears as the chief yazata (Avestan, "beneficent one" , or good spirit, and ruler of the world. He was supposed to have slain the divine bull, from whose dying body sprang all plants and animals beneficial to humanity. After the conquest of Assyria in the 7th century BC and of Babylonia in the 6th century BC, Mithra became the god of the sun, which was worshipped in his name (see Sun Worship). The Greeks of Asia Minor, by identifying Mithra with Helios, the Greek god of the sun, helped to spread the cult. It was brought to Rome about 68 BC by Cilician pirates whom the Roman general Pompey the Great had captured, and during the early empire it spread rapidly throughout Italy and the Roman provinces. It was a rival to Christianity in the Roman world. Mithraism was similar to Christianity in many respects, for example, in the ideals of humility and brotherly love, baptism, the rite of communion, the use of holy water, the adoration of the shepherds at Mithra's birth, the adoption of Sundays and of December 25 (Mithra's birthday) as holy days, and the belief in the immortality of the soul, the last judgment, and the resurrection. Mithraism differed from Christianity in the exclusion of women from its ceremonies and in its willingness to compromise with polytheism. The similarities, however, made possible the easy conversion of its followers to Christian doctrine. Christmas (from Old English Cristes maesse, "Christ's mass" , Christian festival celebrated on December 25, commemorating the birth of Jesus Christ. It is also a popular secular holiday.According to a Roman almanac, the Christian festival of Christmas was celebrated in Rome by AD 336. In the eastern part of the Roman Empire, however, a festival on January 6 commemorated the manifestation of God in both the birth and the baptism of Jesus, except in Jerusalem, where only the birth was celebrated. During the 4th century the celebration of Christ's birth on December 25 was gradually adopted by most Eastern churches. In Jerusalem, opposition to Christmas lasted longer, but it was subsequently accepted. In the Armenian Church, a Christmas on December 25 was never accepted; Christ's birth is celebrated on January 6. After Christmas was established in the East, the baptism of Jesus was celebrated on Epiphany, January 6. In the West, however, Epiphany was the day on which the visit of the Magi to the infant Jesus was celebrated. The reason why Christmas came to be celebrated on December 25 remains uncertain, but most probably the reason is that early Christians wished the date to coincide with the pagan Roman festival marking the "birthday of the unconquered sun" (natalis solis invicti); this festival celebrated the winter solstice, when the days again begin to lengthen and the sun begins to climb higher in the sky. The traditional customs connected with Christmas have accordingly developed from several sources as a result of the coincidence of the celebration of the birth of Christ with the pagan agricultural and solar observances at midwinter. In the Roman world the Saturnalia (December 17) was a time of merrymaking and exchange of gifts. December 25 was also regarded as the birth date of the Iranian mystery god Mithra, the Sun of Righteousness. On the Roman New Year (January 1), houses were decorated with greenery and lights, and gifts were given to children and the poor. To these observances were added and Celtic Yule rites when the Teutonic tribes penetrated into Gaul, Britain, and central Europe. Food and good fellowship, the Yule log and Yule cakes, greenery and fir trees, and gifts and greetings all commemorated different aspects of this festive season. Fires and lights, symbols of warmth and lasting life, have always been associated with the winter festival, both pagan and Christian. Since the European Middle Ages, evergreens, as symbols of survival, have been associated with Christmas. Christmas is traditionally regarded as the festival of the family and of children, under the name of whose patron, Saint Nicholas, or Santa Claus, presents are exchanged in many countries. "In early time this day (Christmas) was not one of the feasts of the Christian Church. In fact, the church fathers frowned upon the celebration of birthdays and thought them a heathen custom." (The New Book of Knowledge. New York: Grolier, 1979. P289) The Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics confirms this--"MOST of the Christian customs [related to Christmas] now prevailing in Europe, or recorded from former times, are HEATHEN customs which have been absorbed or tolerated by the Church. The Christian feast has inherited these customs from two sources: Roman and Teutonic PAGANISM." "The ancient Romans held year end celebrations to honor Saturn, their harvest god; and Mithras, the god of light. Various people in northern Europe held festivals in mid-December to celebrate the end of the harvest season. As part of all these celebrations, the people prepared special foods, decorated their homes with greenery, and joined in singing and gift giving. These customs gradual became part of the Christmas celebrations." (The World Book Encyclopedia. Chicago: World Book, 1995) "Christmas is a very old holiday. It clearly started as a celebration of the passing of the winter solstice, and the start of the sun's journey from the north to the south…The ancient Romans observed this time with a festival dedicated to Saturn, the god of agriculture, and it was called Saturnalia…When Emperor Constantine decreed Christianity as the new faith of the Roman Empire, early in the fourth century, the Christians gave the holiday an entirely new name and an entirely new meaning." (Faer, Joseph. Holidays Around the World. Boston: Little Brown, 1953) The Everyman's Encyclopedia declares-- "The practice of decorating churches is pagan in its origin." "Christianity thus replaced a pagan holiday with A Christian one, while keeping the same symbolism-the birthday of Christ corresponds to the birth of a new year. Many of the pagan customs became part of the Christian celebrations." (New Standard Encyclopedia. Chicago: Standard Educational, 1991) T.G. Crippen, in Christmas and Christmas Lore, confesses-- "The Feast of the Nativity rather incorporated than supplanted various heathen festivals. It was therefore only natural that RELICS OF HEATHEN PRACTICE should survive as traditional customs." And the Catholic Encyclopedia (note the source) admits-- "There is NO DOUBT that the original Christian nuclei attracted PAGAN accretions." The Schaff-Herzog Religious Encyclopedia similarly says-- "There were non-Christian elements present in the origin of Christmas. The giving of presents was a Roman custom. The Yule-tree [modern 'Christmas Tree'] and the Yule-log are remnants of old Teutonic NATURE WORSHIP." The Encyclopedia Britannica says--"Many current customs date back to pre-Christian origins: among them are Christmas decorations. The Romans ornamented their temples and homes with green boughs and flowers for the Saturnalia [Dec. 17-23] ... The Druids gathered mistletoe and hung it in their homes; the Saxons used holly and ivy." We can trace the basis of the Christmas celebration back to the kingdom of Nimrod, Babel. After Nimrod died Ninus was born to Beltis. He was considered to be the reincarnation of Nimrod. This is the origin of the worship of "Mother and Child". Beltis the mother of Ninus became known as the" mother of god" or "the queen of heaven". In Egypt this celebration was the same only different names. Osiris the sun god and Isis was the "queen of heaven" and Horus was the son born on December 25th. Since the time of Babel sun worshippers have recognized this time of year in the honor of their gods. Every time we see the story of the birth of Christ in the Bible we see the wise men mentioned. They came from the East and were students of prophecy. They studied the writings of Daniel and they knew that a priest had to be 30 years of age before beginning His ministry. They calculated an approximate time when the 483 years of Daniel 9 would end. They then subtracted 30 years from their conclusion to determine when the birth of Christ would be. Their journey could have taken up to 2 years. We also see that Christ could not have possibly been born in December. And in the same region there were some shepherds staying out in the fields, and keeping watch over their flock by night. Luke 2  In fact He could not have been born in the winter. The sheep were kept in corrals during the winter. The sheep in Palestine were not in the fields in December. The shepherds guarded their sheep during lambing time in the spring. So more than likely Christ was born in the spring.Have we brought a form of worship into God's church that He does not recognize? Only you can be the judge of that. How your family uses Christmas is your decision. We can only present to you the facts. We ask, who authorized the celebration of Christmas, December 25th in honor of Christ? Did God? 'But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.' "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men." Mark 7  -8 FAIR USE NOTICE: This comment contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material available in my effort to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, religeous, etc. I believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on in this comment is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving similiar information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml if the site is up if not go to http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html |
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Date: 12/19/2004 9:13:00 PM
From Authorid: 4309
Thats much easier then putting my own two cents in heh. Bless |
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Date: 12/19/2004 9:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
Very useful information, Wiley. Especially ironic is when people jump all over Christmas being celebrated IN LIGHT of all the history of its orgins. The idea remains, as the author of your information states, "How your family uses Christmas is for you to decide." EXACTLY. And a family's decision to CELEBRATE Christ's Mass should not be interfered with at any level, including school. And I will reiterate: How utterly sad it is for people to make such a fuss about a celebration of LIFE. Perhaps it is because they can't appreciate LIFE, as in the old adage, "Live and let live." God Bless. |
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Date: 12/19/2004 9:55:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Well AZ, the school spoiled halloween for her and now you want to spoil Christmas for her, sounds like you both have her best interest at heart. DEB yep so far removed, but as I said, its our rights especially at this time of year and what it is suppose to stand for, that concern me. BRENDA: LOL, what do they call it? LOL Probably Happy Holidays vacation. |
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Date: 12/19/2004 9:58:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Wiley I do not beleive it should have been taken away, and if you will look at earlier, much much earlier school books, they had alot to do with the Christian God. So I'm thinking if they dont want to allow the rights of Christians in the schools then THEY can use the vouchers, I'm sure there are plenty of non christian schools that wont offend their tender sensibilities. FREAQ::: Thank you. |
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Date: 12/19/2004 10:02:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Wiley, yes i found all that on the net also. Deb, exactly!! And wiley this post isn't so much of when Jesus was born, who christmas belongs to ect ect, its the fact that , oh well not going to repeat my self, read the post again and some of my comments, LOL. Its about Christian rights. |
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Date: 12/19/2004 10:03:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
And besides wiley, I'd rather hear YOUR opinion on things as I think you have alot to say. Thanks |
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Date: 12/19/2004 10:03:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Yeah that's exactly what I want do, spoil Christmas for her. I am almost certain if they allowed the children in your public school system to decorate for Halloween, call it a Halloween party and dress up and then scratched Christmas out you'd be hollering. |
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Date: 12/20/2004 4:45:00 AM
From Authorid: 47296
"Its about Christian rights" Well, maybe now you understand what it is like to have something you hold dear trying to be taken away from you. It is said that all things come around in their own time. The respect of rights is a two way street, If you wish your protected, then you should be prepared to protect the rights of others. |
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Date: 12/20/2004 2:21:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
Let's examine this school situation a little more closely. The school ruined Halloween because they didn't allow these kids to dress up in costume. Did the whole town say NO TRICK or TREATING? Did the children get to dress up in costumes and trick or treat or go to parties? Did the school party not have candy and/or candied apples and pumpkin-decorated cookies and orange jello jigglers or WHATEVER? Were there not decorations of fall leaves and pumpkins? Didn't they not make it festive just not "Halloweenish" with ghosts and witches and monsters????!!! Now let's examine the "winter" festivities. There's probably garland and ornaments and possibly even a fir tree decorated and snowmen and Santa Claus pictures and Santa hats on some school personnel and the party will have candy and green jello jigglers and candy canes, right? WHERE IN ALL OF THAT DOES EITHER CELEBRATION SCREAM "CHRISTIAN"? I'll be willing to bet that in the fall, All Saints Day wasn't mentioned and that in the winter Jesus Christ is not mentioned. But oh, because we couldn't call it a "Halloween" party isn't then we certainly can't EVEN HAVE a "Christmas" party. There should be nothing even though the celebrations for each "holiday" is done in the most inoffensive way to ALL people. Dear God, the things some people use their energy on. God Bless. |
Date: 12/20/2004 2:26:00 PM
From Authorid: 19613
 I suppose I walked into that one FB. Actually it might surprise you to know that in the Republic, (where I live) the attitude to religion is similiar to that of the UK. (Northern Ireland is a different and very complicated issue) Over here, society is quite secular by coparison in some regards. Religion and politics almost never mix and the kind of radical right-wing fundamental types are few and far between. On the other hand though, political correctness does not seem to have been taken to the extremes that it has been in the US. It's strange really, on the surface of it, you would think Ireland would be a very conservative country, divorce has only been legalised recently, abortion is illegal, our constitution defines marriage as between a man and a woman, and the state owned TV station RTE has the Angelus (Catholic prayer type thing) every day at 6 o'clock. And yet despite this, Irish people themselves are relatively speaking far less religious than the christians in America seem to be. What I'm trying to say is that it seems to me that people over-estimate the influence of religion. Perhaps it has to do with people's fear of having religion forced down their throat, and it is important to ensure that the beliefs of minorities are respected, but to go so far as to try and censor something like Christmas just seems at step too far to me (at least). |
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Date: 12/20/2004 3:46:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
DP, in my travels through Europe and the Isles, I often found a definite divide between religion and politics. I have always felt that a lot of that came from the fact that much of the turmoil that plagued Europe for centuries was brought about because of religion and varying beliefs. |
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Date: 12/20/2004 4:04:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
AZ, at my grandkids school they didnt dress up but each class had its only little halloween party. They just didnt do the halloween carnival like they usually do each year after school for parents and kids. But what do you think you will acomplish by trying to make sure christmas doesnt happen in the school? Nothing. Except to upset kids that are probably all ready upset from the halloween thing. TWO Spirits, my rights in this are already suppose to be upheld by the 1st admendment. Im not trying to write in new law, only make them adhere to the Law. |
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Date: 12/20/2004 4:04:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
DEB, I'll say a big Amen to that. DARK PHOENIX: your right Political correctness has gone far and beyond in my opinion here in the united states. Its getting where the white man now should be the minority because if there is a good job, it doesnt matter who is qualified, first they have to make sure the black man gets his, or the single female or woman gets theres and then of course there are the mexican or latinos, and if some of them dont get the job, they cry discrimination. Its a joke here really it is. I agree to censor Christmas is just a step too far. Thanks for the information. |
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Date: 12/20/2004 4:06:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Two Spirits, on your reply to DP I beleive that you are right, simply because they are such older countries then the usa that they have dealt with this stuff much much longer. |
Date: 12/20/2004 6:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 22852
And to think, I always thought America was founded on Christianity, I could be wrong, but I don't think I am and now in America to be Christian is something so many fight against, how sad indeed. Thankfully where I live, in my sons school stands a large decorated Christmas Tree and a banner saying MERRY CHRISTMAS as you enter the school, not ONE parent or student has fought against it and our Chorus and Band Christmas concert was all Christmas music, people may say we live in a backwoods community but I will take it anyday! MERRY CHRISTMAS to all!  |
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Date: 12/20/2004 6:54:00 PM
From Authorid: 22852
oh and Happy Hanakka, Happy Kwanza, Happy Winter Break, Happy Muslim Holiday oh Heck Happy Anything I may Have forgotten.. Now I am being politically correct.. hehehe |
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Date: 12/20/2004 7:55:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
StormChaser, YEP, seems the small towns dont give a flip about politically correct. Shoot I know a town here in utah, when they have the newyears party its held in the local elementary school. Small town, small school, and they have their drinks there. But then the guys that run it, one is the sherrif one is the judge and the other the mayor, so the WHOLE town goes to the party, plays hush mouth and all is good. LOL I think those of us that want to celebrate Christimas or give the season to Jesus, should be able to without anyone saying oh no, take down the tree, dont put a baby in a manger, blah blah blah. LOL Thanks hon for stoppin by. |
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Date: 12/21/2004 4:12:00 AM
From Authorid: 47296
Storm Chaser, although many of our founding fathers were christian, this country was formed to give the people the right of self government and freedom from tyranny. Religion was a very touchy subject for our forefathers, as is evident from that many writings of that era, and also from the fact that the Constituion would not have passed vote if not for the Bill of Rights, including the first amendment. The people back then made it clear that government had no part in religion. |
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Date: 12/21/2004 5:40:00 AM
From Authorid: 27046
FB, I'm not literally TRYING to get Christmas taken out. The point of me going in to complain and demand that they cancel Christmas was to prove the point that if you aren't going to allow one, you shouldn't allow ANY of them. Did you really think they would cancel the Christmas celebration? Of course not, doing that they would have a whole lot more to contend with than just a "few" parents that are upset that they canceled Halloween. Once again, numbers mean everything. |
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Date: 12/21/2004 5:52:00 AM
From Authorid: 27046
Deb, if you are speaking about the school situation that I mentioned, No there were no pumpkins, there wasn't Halloween candy, candied apples, etc. My children came home with absolutely NOTHING Halloween related at all. They weren't allowed to dress up, they colored nothing.....not a cat, a pumpkin, a ghost or a ghoul. NONE of the bulletin boards and windows had ANYTHING on them Halloween related. The ONLY thing in the school building itself that appeared Halloweenish was the border of leaves and the sign decorating the art bulletin board that said "Think Fall" They celebrated the "fall" season and didn't have a "party". They switched throughout the 4 classrooms in the grade and did a different "fall" activity in each classroom. They didn't call it Halloween, they didn't dress up, and they didn't get Halloween candy. For Christmas. It's CHRISTMAS flat out. They haven't called it anything else, and they aren't trying to hide it as something else. Both of my children are having Christmas parties and the school is decorated for Christmas. It's only wasted energy to you because they haven't touched your precious holiday. Like I said to FB if they blew Halloween out in all it's glory and then said..scratch on Christmas you'd be screaming from the rooftops real loud about that good ole persecution. |
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Date: 12/21/2004 6:08:00 AM
From Authorid: 22852
AZ... I am a parent volunteer in my sons school and I beg you not to do it, not because I believe in Christmas but for your child. I have seen children hurt because of what their parents do, and not by the staff but because of the other children.. I can just picture then blaming your child because they took the tree down because you demanded it, do you see what I am saying... there are some things parents just need to back away from for their childs sake. |
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Date: 12/21/2004 12:15:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
StormChaser, I went to the school yesterday as I stated I was going to and knew myself before going that I didn't have any sort of power to "stop" Christmas for the school and it wasn't my intention anyway. It was the point of expressing the fact that I as a parent am not happy with the way they are making their changes to be politically correct. I was fed a crock of garbage when I inquired in October why they were not allowing the children to dress up. Feel free to see the post that I wrote concerning it. I will have to go back and re-read it myself but I am almost certain that I stated THEN I was going to be upset to find Christmas decorations and parties. I don't buy the safety with costumes issue that the principal fed me on top of Halloween being on a weekend. Last I checked kids aren't at school for Christmas or Easter yet they celebrate those. I don't want or expect the school in anyway to stop Christmas, Easter or anything else. My point to them is simple. IF you aren't going to do one of them, don't do any of them. My plight is to reinstate the birthdays and Halloween, not take away the rest. |
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Date: 12/21/2004 4:23:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
AZ I hope you won't mind answering a few questions so that I may fully understand your position. How much to you personally pay for your child to be educated vs. the actual cost of educating her? Are there room mothers or the like that help out in the classroom and coordinate parties? Are you one? Do you have a good relationship with your child's teacher and made an offer to help in the classroom? Did you offer to make a presentation on what it is that you consider the important aspects of "Halloween" (or should that be Hallow's Eve?) to your child's class? Is your house currently decorated for a holiday? Do you and your family exchange gifts anytime during the next week? Have your children been photographed with Santa or some other festive background in the last month or so? Is there a nativity scene or any mention of Jesus in the school? God Bless. |
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Date: 12/21/2004 6:47:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Two Spirits many of our forefathers were christian or even if not, still went along with the christian agenda as one really wasnt socially accepted in those days unless they were beleivers. BUT your right they did not want the government to be able to make people worship the way they wanted. They wanted to escape that, so that they could not make a state regulated religion. AZ:: no I really didnt think they would cancel Christimas just because you went in there and talked with them. |
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Date: 12/21/2004 6:52:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
STorm Chaser, yep your right, there are lots of things that go on in schools today that I dont like. Of course only my grandkids go to school as my kids are grown. But sometimes all we can do is just talk to our kids and explain things. AZ I think there are to many birthdays for teachers to worry about that. But as far as the holidays go, they should just leave stuff alone. DEB wow, looking forward to seeing her answer, but I may not make it until the 24th, lol, leaving for nevada tomorrow so if nothing happens to night with the post, oh well, I'll have to wait. |
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Date: 12/21/2004 6:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Deb, I don't see why you would need to know my personal information to understand my position. WHAT is so difficult to understand? They LITERALLY did away with Halloween for garbage reasons, but haven't seemed to touch ANY other holiday celebration. That's the point. |
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Date: 12/21/2004 6:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Firstborn, there aren't too many birthday's for the teacher to keep track of. The teachers never kept track of that unless they themselves have a thing of their own to do something special for the birthdays in their own classes. It has always been the parent of the child having the birthday that was sure to find out how many kiddies were in the class and send in enough cupcakes and juice for them. It's another one of those politically correct thingies they are doing because there are some kids that don't celebrate birthdays. Jehovah's witnesses aren't new to the school system for crying out loud, they were in school when I went and they got shipped off to the library or the computer room to do something "special" while the other kids ate a cupcake and drank some juice that the birthday kid brought in. They are becoming ridiculous about it and who knows, maybe next year they won't celebrate Christmas, Easter and maybe even Valentines day. Who knows. |
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Date: 12/21/2004 7:37:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
LOL AZ, when you said deb I thought you were talking to me. Anyway, I understand the birthday thing, when my kids were little they did that too, But I figured with the school your child attends would be much larger due to where you live. In one town my kids were only part of 62 kids and that was kindergarten up to sixth grade, thats all that was in the whole school and in the other school there was only maybe 19 kids per class. It just then when there are like thirty or more kids in a class then it can disrupt a class more often. WEll I'm not going to be too surprised if all things like easter and chrsitmas get taken away. God basically warns us that in time it will happen. But the thing is either keep them all or do away with them all, because as so many tell us that the school is no place for religion, then I think it also is no place for b-day parties, and other things. Which is really a crock because I think the kids enjoy these things and while our tax dollars are paying for schools, then our children should at least have some fun there. |
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Date: 12/21/2004 9:35:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
At my grandchildren's school they celebrate every holiday. It is a public school. Tomorrow we celebrate with Christmas parties at the school. As long as I pay school taxes, I will present my voice and demand that my grandchildren be allowed to celebrate the reason for Christmas. Kids need Christmas, they need celebration of the season for all that it means. I'm sick of adults who have "no life" trying to take every little GOOD thing from our children. I refuse to accept that as a taxpayer and homeowner and will continue to support my local schools and encourage that children celebrate Christmas as a time of giving, loving, caring, and being allowed to celebrate as much as they can according to the religion each follows from home. But Taxpayers and parents and district schools all share the responsibilty of just letting the children be children, having a Christmas party and bringing treats is something all the little ones love and enjoy. Sometimes they don't get any at home. I have gift bags and treats for everyone in my grandkids class. Those who toss them out are welcome to. |
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Date: 12/21/2004 9:43:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
I've been bring bringing treats to the classrooms for years and I dress up at Halloween. I've never had any child refuse the cupcakes, candy and treats for any holiday. They eat them up and so many have so little sometimes that they ask for the extras to take home. We have huge shopping bags filled with goodies for all the kids in my local school, cupcakes and stickers and little toys and candy and I refuse to believe that anyone would deny a child because of his or her own beliefs. Some of these children believe and Hope for so much and get so little. That's what Christmas means to me, those bags we have packed for school parties tomorrow. I enjoy these times more than anything, and the children, sometimes they just break my heart because I can't do more. |
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Date: 12/21/2004 10:20:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Exactly brenda. It irks me when some schools say they cant have these differnt holidays or functions going on cause of the lack of money, if the money is that lacking then how come they can still afford football, baseball, the price of the uniforms and stuff? Kids like christmas, easter, valentines day, halloween, it gives them a break from the hum drum of everyday school and besides some kids, well that might be all they get to do during that holiday. Your a sweet sweet person to do what you do, Godbless you hon. I'm going to bed now, got to get up early to go to nevada. See ya'll in a few days. |
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Date: 12/21/2004 10:52:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
Get some rest. I have bags filled with goodies for the kids, and I'm betting not one tosses them. I'm taking them all anyway. The kids are why I do so much extra, I see the appreciation and that is enough for me. We have bags and bags filled with mini cupcakes, stickers, small toys, candy and other goodies. I have extras for the families who bring the younger ones. This is Christmas for me and my family. Giving as much as we can to kids. I love seeing their little faces when they get goodie bags. Some of these kids have so little and appreciate JUST coming to school for what they get. A good meal and a few more presents. They are babies, they need hope. |
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Date: 12/22/2004 5:56:00 AM
From Authorid: 27046
Between the two of you I get confused...LOL! My daughter and son have about 20 kids in their classes. In the Kindergarten there are 3 teachers so there are about 60-80 kids in each grade level and the school holds K-5 grade. It's not all that big, but bigger compared to the school you speak of. Mine is actually one of the smaller ones in the district. One of the huge schools around here would be Shenendahowa. It's like a college campus of small school buildings and the schools all have different names. They have four or 5 elementary schools on the campus alone. |
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Date: 12/22/2004 12:58:00 PM
From Authorid: 4309
Alot of my opinion including that information that I found on the net only because I knew what I was looking for was erased in my first comment when USM logged me off. Its an annoying thing really. Explained alot of how I feel as far as religeon goes in school. Things like evolution deffinettly should be thrown out of schools especially since it has no scientific evidence whatsoever backing it up. Why it cannot be called Theory of Evolution anymore.(Went to more detail in this in my first comment that got erased including explaining how even Darwin himself on his deathbed denounced it which is kept away from history books) Only reason I copied and pasted that story was because I did not feel like writting the some of the information that is contained in it again (Like January 6th being the first known celebration of babtism and birth) even though that site didn't include alot of things especially the story of Saint Nicholas. Anyway, there are alot of things that I personally feel they leave out in history books in general and religeon (No matter the religeon) should be studdied in truth as long as its not shown in the light of this should be your religeon. When they do mention religeons to fit the taste of the book they decide to attach things like "Religeous Fanatic" to perfectly fine people just because of Social Racism and explain nothing of the persons real life and beliefs or if it suits their purpose of appeasement from the impacts of Racism they will call a man who heard voices (not saying myself he did not) a man of strong faith. Leaving out religeon leaves a reader no insight on who the person was and worse when they define someone with words like Fanatic or saying they have strong faith to suit the story without any background it is not only a misleading lie but is a travisty to History. Should people be able to practice their religeon in a public school? As far as thanking God for the food you received at lunch time from the cafeteria person(s) is fine. Forcing your children as a teacher to listen to Music of a religeous nature (No matter the musics religeous origin) is not. Bless. |
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Date: 12/22/2004 12:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 4309
PS That site was basically about leaving information you can find in your encyclopedia. Does not really reflect my opinion just the supposed facts of history |
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Date: 12/22/2004 2:19:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
Can someone please fill me in on WHEN the U.S. Government made Halloween a national holiday??? Brenda, your comments left me feeling so grateful that their are people like you out there forchildren to experience. God Bless and MERRY CHRISTMAS! |
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Date: 12/22/2004 7:50:00 PM
From Authorid: 4309
No one gets double time on Halloween so its still just a normal day that candy manufacturers make a ton of money off of. |
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Date: 12/22/2004 8:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 4309
Ok lets just say there is a difference between the "National" holiday Christmas and what others may celebrate to honor the birth of Christ. There are athiests, muslims, hinndi's, etc massive people who put up trees, decorate their homes, tell their kids about Santa, exchange gifts, etc. All but say its about Jesus Christ. There is nothing wrong with a gift drive or just the normal exchanging of gifts which happens accross the country in many schools just when you say from Jesus Christ instead of Santa or yourself is when its wrong. |
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Date: 12/24/2004 12:35:00 AM
From Authorid: 4309
Hehe This is something (At least a bit of it I can see Firstborn leading the charge that I more then whole heartedly support). Things like John Brown and Nat Turner. Whole story should be told in classrooms not just the silly story leaving out religeon on Johns part or making him seem like a fanatical crazy man when he was truely a hero. Nat Turner was made out to be a hero of true religeous character but no real backbone of it all. Things like Abraham Lincoln's Second Inaugul address being cut down or left out when it was very important and these things and things like them (though religeous) show a better insight into a mans character. "If a we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offences which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through his appointed time, he now wills to remove ,and that he gives to both north and south this terrible war, as the woe due to those by whoom the offence came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to him? Fondly do we hope--Fervently do we pray-- that this mighty scouge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said, The Judgements of the Lord are true and Righteous altogether." Abraham Lincoln. He said many things prior and after before he was shot a month later the things containing any bit of religeous feeling or discourse towards America's sins against humanity are left out. These should all be in and more. All our heritage should never be asqued and twisted to fit the Ideology of a Government. In that same manner you should also here how Thomas Jefferson did not believe in Jesus and what impacts in life led him that way but its not in your children's Textbooks Bless |
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Date: 12/24/2004 6:46:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Brenda, I expect to recieve a candy care package. LOL, I love my sweets. yep they are babies and they need it. AZ sounds like a lot school, LOL Wiley. Nothing should be forced on kids, but it is. New age junk is forced on them, they are being taught to meditate and see with the minds eye. Clearly new age. Harry potter which as far as I'm concerned deals with teaching kids about witchcraft is being read in school, so many things that confuse children as to <IF THEY are christian* whom Jesus is or what God wants. Christian children are being force fed this junk just about everyday, while their beliefs are being thrown out. its not fair or constitutional. Deb I dont know if halloween was ever made a government holiday. I know they dont let school out for it. At least not here. |
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Date: 12/24/2004 6:53:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
LOL wiley, yep charge!!! Yep so much of the history text books have changed to be PC, and that is all bull. If someone in history praised God it should be said so, or if someone in history priase satan it should be said so. Things that really happened, the way people really were , good or bad should not be changed. Whats the point of history if its been doctored? |
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Date: 12/24/2004 10:27:00 PM
From Authorid: 4309
Now that is something that is iffy. I was actually about to say that they should not read to children and let the children or parents pick out their reading material in life. Then I remembered that in fifth grade besides 20,000 leagues under the sea and other great books like follow my leader my 3 teachers of the time (Joint classes) read the Hobbit to us. Its a good story but thats really all it is and it was the same for any "Fantasy" fiction I ever read afterwords. True its also nice that in sixth grade (Though I should of had it earlier) I read the Lion,The witch, and the Wardrobe which we all know what that story is about. It led me to read the Narnia series completely of course. I always enjoyed fantasy books actually but I that is me. There probably is some confused children out there that believe with some magical force you can fly on a broom (without gods or goddesses cause in Harry Potter they do not once pray to any. Its magical power magically. Equivilant to the cartoon of Santa Claus going to the North Pole and finding Magical Elves that never mention any Gods and make his Impossible wish come true). Thing is though if one parent feels their child should not read or watch any such thing in the school system your right. Its not the school systems child and there should be some type of waiver slip just like taking a field trip sent home. Its not hard to do. At least that way the parents are more informed. |
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Date: 12/24/2004 10:30:00 PM
From Authorid: 4309
I really do wish I had an editor. I type so fast sometimes I leave things in like actually but I that is me insead of of but that is me. Ah well.. I also think im slight Dyslexic heh. sselB |
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Date: 12/25/2004 6:38:00 AM
From Authorid: 47296
FB, it has been over 25 years since I graduated, and even back when I was in school there was much left out of textbooks. I was always a history buff, and while the history books would tell of various events, they rarely told what led up to those events. Textbooks in piblic schools today are even worse than they were then. Even in Christian schools they do not always teach the whole truth about various events. An older gentleman that works with us part time use to teach at a local Christian school. He said himself that although a lot of the kids would go on to college, that most would not be fully prepared for what they would find there, and some would in fact need remedial courses to learn things they should have learned in high school. |
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Date: 12/25/2004 11:12:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Wiley, I too enjoy fantasy books, but some kids are not mentally mature enough to know the difference between fantasy and reality. They get mixed up. I remember when I was a kid, cant remember the name, but it was a book about a majic nickle. I loved that story. Children need to have things that keep their imaginations going, to give them hopes and dreams that some things could happen. I think instead of going clear crazy with the situation that a parent when finally informed by thier child that some of this is going on, needs to talk to the child about their beliefs, what they believe to be true, and what not to even think is going to happen. So many things going on in the classroom, that instead of to single out kids, the parents need to do their jobs and figure out what to talk to the kids about and pay attention to what is going on in the class room. I feel if parents dont want to listen to or hear anything about Christianity, then they need to do what we do and like I said, talk to your kid, tell them you dont agree with what the teacher or whom ever is saying and tell them why. In the long run we all have to think for ourself and that includes the kids. parents just need to be more responsible and stop all these senseless law suits. |
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Date: 12/25/2004 11:15:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Two Spirits, yep I understand that, and as I said, no matter if its good bad or indiffernt we should be able to know the facts so that we know what went on. Oh so some it probably doesnt matter, but I just dont understand why we cant have all the facts. Its like reading a book and missing the ending. Thanks for stoppin in. |
Date: 12/25/2004 12:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 3835
*Peacefully looks in, smiling and nods before backing away slowly*  |
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Date: 12/25/2004 9:21:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
LOL, caught ya karla!!! Merry Christmas my friend. |
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Date: 12/26/2004 12:46:00 AM
From Authorid: 4309
Heh.. When it comes to History of America its like the society today. They do not teach true history because it would not stand up to the Righteous America bubble that they want to project from History to Media. Though the part about leaving religeon out of it is more then strictly political its because the people who want the atrocities left out with roses painted in believe in a one "Creator" that is different then any have ever believed in that I wish they where Athiests. Complicated matter but they worship an "Perfect" star. One that was supposedly so beutiful it was cast out and was the "True" creator of man. Instead of being its bane and cast out due to wickedness. On the other issue frivilous lawsuits rarely pan out. School systems can make their own laws like the DMV but the truely silly ones shouldn't even be able to be made. Making the Lawyer more responsible for those kind of damages would be ideal. That situation of being the parents responsiblity goes accross the board. Even columbine should of fell on the combined responsibilty of all the parents instead of wondering what those kids listened to, read, watched on tv, etc and definettly the parents of the "Bullies" should be accountable as well. Parents let television raise their kids nowadays thats the biggest problem of society. Its why they find out things like their kids are reading material not to their liking, getting abused, SHOOT UP THE WHOLE SCHOOL, etc a little to late. Worrying about this problem will always be projected nothing will be done just like the world we live in and those that run it Bless |
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Date: 12/26/2004 12:49:00 AM
From Authorid: 4309
BTW Merry Christes Maesse and a Happy New year |
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Date: 12/26/2004 10:13:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
The thing wiley is that even if those of us that do beleive in one creator wanted bad stuff out of the history books, *which I'm not one that would have tampered* it doesnt stand to reason that so many of the things pertaining to Christianity has been removed, but then that is not all that has been removed. I cant beleive that so many of todays kids dont even believe that the holocost happened, which is so fruity because there is so much documentation on it, books, film, LIVE witnesses. But the point I'm trying to get at is that even GOD left all the bad junk in the bible. Even stuff that makes Him look bad. LOL, I just dont understand people I guess. Anyway, Happy Holidays to you to. |
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Date: 12/29/2004 3:03:00 PM
From Authorid: 4309
I try to understand people. Why I go to the extremes on some comments to get at what the people really think. Aka on the parents issue I would of went to Burn the parents as the response to solve the problem heh. As far as history being tainted it will always be tainted until the people who know it is tainted do something about it. I will just sit on the couch like everyone else eating pringles with my favorite spice MSG in it till they do |
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Date: 12/29/2004 10:31:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
LOL wiley, and me too, except my pringles are hot and spicy or cajun. |
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