Date: 11/25/2004 1:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 36967
It is the Bible Beleivers that are being discriminated. I will give an example, A Judge was allowed to have a Statue of Zues I think it is, the God of Law and Justice. A group sued to get it removed, but A higher court allowed it, this same court is the one that stated that the Ten Commandments were not to be posted.  |
Date: 11/25/2004 2:17:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47218
Greek pantheism ceased to exist as religions over a thousand years ago. The remnants are a purely secular mythology, and thus a statue of Zeus in a courthouse does not constitute a mixing of government and religion. Anyhow, the point is that most of the people who had the ten commandments removed were probably Christians who I'm quite sure believe in the ten commandments themselves (it's one of the basics to being a Christian).  |
Date: 11/25/2004 3:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 62367
Genuine life-threatening persecution of Christians exists in other parts of the world but not in the US. Most of the persecution talk comes out of losing the privileged status Christianity maintained in the public domain since the country's founding. Also some of comes out of infighting among Christian factions: Christian right versus Christian left, Fundamentalists/Evangelicals vs mainstream denominations.  |
Date: 11/25/2004 6:26:00 PM
From Authorid: 62915
Well personally I think taking christianity out of schools is a good idea. It is forcing a belief onto another person. I knew a girl who was offended by our anthme as it is "God defend New Zealand." Even though christians are in the majority I don't feel that their beliefs should be forced onto anyone. Also Within that 83% there are many different christian religions. They will all believe something different. A catholic is different to a 7th day adventist and so on  I don't think they are being oppressed at all. just look at the laws that are in place. Ghost-Chick  |
Date: 11/26/2004 10:17:00 AM
From Authorid: 15621
Question answered. Statue of Zeus, God of Law and Justice allowed, but not anything Christian. Then you say "most of the people who had the ten commandments removed were probably Christians" Where do you gather this information from? I would like to see the facts or polls for these facts. Otherwise it is just your opinion which does not amount to a hill of beans because its ludacrious to says Christians had the 10 commandments removed themselves.  |
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Date: 11/26/2004 10:34:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47218
I derived my conclusion through facts and simple logic: majority rules in this country. There is no way that a 17% faction of people is going to impose its will over the remaining 83% of the population. In order to have the majority required to support the removal of christian items from a government contexts (such as the ten commandments in the courthouse or the removal of the reference to God in the pledge of allegiance) you need a majority of people on your side-- this can only entail that the base of support contains a large ercentage of self-identified Christians. And this is not a ludicrous claim-- there are plenty of Christians who are also supporters of the separation between church and government. |
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Date: 11/26/2004 10:35:00 AM
From Authorid: 15621
People dont like it but check this out http://www.myusm.com/usm400602.html |
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Date: 11/26/2004 10:40:00 AM
From Authorid: 15621
In order to have the majority required to support the removal of christian items from a government contexts (such as the ten commandments in the courthouse or the removal of the reference to God in the pledge of allegiance) you need a majority of people on your side. WRONG |
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Date: 11/26/2004 10:48:00 AM
From Authorid: 15621
Where did you learn about law making and goverment? on the back of a cracker jack box, Polls also show that Christians are against abortion is it illegal in all states? polls also show that Christians are against Gay marriage, has it been put done in all states yet or is it still fighting for it chance? Just because the majority wants something doesnt mean jack squat unless the people we vote in office wants what we do, sop unless we vote Christians in office with our views we will not get what we want as far as the same ideas and values you talk about. |
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Date: 11/26/2004 10:51:00 AM
From Authorid: 15621
As far as I know, when laws are passed and things are done such as taking the 10 commandments out of the courtroom we the people do not vote on that so just because the Xtians outnumber the nonXtians does not mean squat. |
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Date: 11/26/2004 10:59:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47218
actually, polls show that people split almost down the middle when it comes to abortion (pro lifers are only barely in the minority). So again, even assuming that the entire 17% minority is in support of it (many come from religions that are also against it), a large percentage of pro choicers MUST be Christian. As for gay marriage supporters-- supporters are definitely in the minority and the gay marriage movement is hardly taking off as a consequence. Sure-- they've had a couple of upstarts-- that thing in San Francisco, a couple of places have tried to pass laws for it, and they've all been almost unanimously struck down, and then many states are additionally passing amemdments against it. I'd say that abortion and gay-marriage pose a very good examples that the course of law in this country ultimately follows the will of the majority. |
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Date: 11/26/2004 11:01:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47218
we the people vote the judges into office who make such decisions, or the politicians into office who nominate the judges who make the decisions, so ultimately it is based on the will of the majority. |
Date: 11/26/2004 1:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
The way the are being oppressed are the things that happen everyday, like not being able to have the ten commandements up in some places, Non believers or those of other religions having a fit when a christian wants to put up a nativity scene in their yard, OH OH its offends the neighbors. And before one could take their bible to school to read during library time or whatever, but now that is out. And God forbid one of the teachers accidently says praise God in the class room, now one might say it has no place there, saying praise God, but if you are a believer and life your life for God, then saying praise God is as natural as someone that isnt a beleiver saying cool, YET a teacher can get fired for it. No freedom of speech there huh? As for the ones that dont beleive having more power? No, they are just more vocal. And you have to remember that just because a denomination or person says they are christian and yes they might believe in God and even Jesus, but lots of them dont believe the bible is the word of God, lots of them perfer to go along with the ways of the world so to speak, actually they hurt the cause of preaching the good news of Jesus. And as far as physcial abuse, mose of that goes on in other countries. And they say were intolerant. I'd be dead if I was in the other countries cause I would NOT renounce my Lord for any of their beliefs, and usually over there that means death. Tolerant aren't they?  |
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Date: 11/26/2004 2:28:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47218
first of all, I do agree that actual oppression of Christians occurs other countries but that's not what I'm referring to here. Secondly, are we trying to say now that the Christians who support the removing of the ten commandments and whatnot are not "real" Christians? That's a completely subjective argument. They could make the same argument against you. Anyhow, the main thing is, you can't say someone is anti-Christian if they identify themselves as Christian. They can't be against Christianity if they identify with it. What you have here isn't anti-Christians trying to oppress the Christians. You have factions of Christians who are battling over what they believe to be the appropriate amount of mixing between religion and the government. |
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Date: 11/26/2004 2:36:00 PM
From Authorid: 15621
No one has showed me yet how Christians voted the 10 commandments out. You said so but have not showed proof, I say little green men did it. You debate with no facts whatsoever, that is not a debate, that is your opinion, big difference. |
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Date: 11/26/2004 2:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 15621
You say you use facts and logic but you are using nothing but opinions and accusations. I would like to know where you learned what you call logic, that cant even fall under the scope of common sense, debate over for me. |
Date: 11/26/2004 2:45:00 PM
From Authorid: 15621
BTWm your facts are wrong, I wanted to point that out before I left. What facts you have pointed out are wrong. 48 percent "pro-choice" to 45 percent "pro-life," according to the latest Gallup poll.
http://www.ppslr.org/Media/Articles/03July_02.htm |
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Date: 11/26/2004 2:46:00 PM
From Authorid: 15621
well, you did say they wee in the minority but I said more people pulled the other way why wasnt it done away with, no answer to that huh since people are againt it?. never mind |
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Date: 11/26/2004 5:37:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47218
I'll simplify it for you. Logic: only 17% non-christian. Majority required for legislation to have enough support to take effect. 17% not anywhere CLOSE to majority. Therefore, large percentage of people behind this must be Christian. |
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Date: 11/26/2004 5:42:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47218
Actually, the poll that I saw said that 57% are for keeping Roe vs. Wade in effect. Therefore, it continues. It varies slightly from poll to poll (depending on the way the question is phrased) and for most purposes is close to being split down the middle, but I think the above explains best why the amendment continues to remain in place: most people support Roe vs. Wade despite other more specific stances on abortion (like, how they feel about a woman having it down simply because she doesn't want the baby vs. having it down for rape, incest or medical purposes). |
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Date: 11/26/2004 5:52:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47218
I also must remind you that the vast majority of people who are elected to office in this country (judicial or executive) are Christian-- jewish people are a rarity, and athiests and people of other religions have a slim to none chance of getting elected to office. So the majority of the judges who are behind this are probably Christian themselves. And before you go off and tell me this is just my opnion again (it's not-- I've read articles on this) I ask you-- how many congress people, governors, presidents have you noticed who were muslim, budist, jewish, athiest, i.e. anything but Christian? |
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Date: 11/26/2004 5:57:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47218
as for where I learned logic-- I've had a semester of predicate logic and a couple semesters of semantics in college. And I was an ace student. |
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Date: 11/26/2004 6:10:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47218
I don't you're last statistics now that I look at them again. You've shown that pro-choicers are in the majority, which only supports why abortion rights continue to exist. |
Date: 11/27/2004 9:42:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
Perhaps the reason that the Ten Commandments were taken out of the courtroom by a majority of Christian backing is because they actually CONSIDERED other peoples' feeling on the subject. Or perhaps it's because they felt it was the correct interpretation of the separation of church and state, i.e., they felt OBLIGATED to follow the letter and spirit of man's laws. Or perhaps it was because they felt that those opposing the monument would be EVEN-HANDED in what and how and where they put up symbols of their belief, be that mythology or not. Just perhaps the Christians were acting Christian-like only to see the hypocricy that is perpetuated against Christian beliefs when the shoe is on the other foot. God Bless.  |
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Date: 11/27/2004 11:48:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
Number one, I didnt say they were not real christians. But the bible says study to shew yourself approved and sometimes LOTS of them, once they accepted Jesus as Lord and savior take it no further then that. So of course they are going to do things the way of the world, simply because they have no clue as to what God says about something. Sitting in a pew doing social things once each sunday does not make one a follower of Christ,They may believe in Him as Lord, but as I said, lots have no clue as to what the bible has to say. I've found many christians on this site that are sweet as can be, love the Lord, Love God, Go to church, but have no clue as to what the will or word of God is concerning so many things. So dont put words in my mouth, I never said they were anti christian or NOT christian. |
Date: 11/27/2004 1:50:00 PM
From Authorid: 1225
A Christian bemoaning his oppressed status in the United States. Why am I not impressed? For all intents and purposes, the United States is a country of religious fundamentalists. No other western nation has such a large number of devout people. Christianity is by far the most pervasive religion in America; Christians are the majority. Christians always have and always will try to force their beliefs on others. If not by violence, then by law.  |
Date: 11/27/2004 3:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 62946
well i for one believe that polls are nothing more than a statistical way for someone on either side of a debate to use in their favor as a backbone to their side of a story. statistics are twisted no matter how you look at it if someone wanted kerri to win the presidential election and they had to call arround and ask ppl who they would like for presdent and the polls came back 50/50 most likely the person who is polling assuming they were for kerri would twist the poll and possibly report a 45/55 kerri leading result. so as you might see polls dont do much to curve my view on too many subjects.
i also believe that the ten commandments should have been removed from the court house due to the facyt that you are saying that whoever is judged in that court isbeing judged under god which shouldnot be the case in a countruy that supports more than one religion or belief.
Good Post-------------Muscuoniony
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Date: 11/28/2004 5:38:00 AM
From Authorid: 61999
I don't know the answer to this really, but a good analogy is how some (I said SOME) white people feel oppressed here in the US, and whites are the majority in this country, just like Christians. Do nonwhites somehow hold such a disproportianate amount of power that they can subdue such an overwhelming majority? My point is, well, I feel that both are no. I'm Messianic, which is pretty similar to Christian, but I don't feel oppressed. Everyone I'm familiar with is either Christian or Messianic and so I guess I sort of live in a bubble...  |
Date: 11/29/2004 5:26:00 PM
From Authorid: 51173
Just because we are in the "majority" (a dubious claim), doesn't mean we exert the most influence on society. Theologians and laity alike have decried the lack of influence on society Christians have, especially in America. See www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm378886.html - for part of a research paper I wrote for school that touches on the subject.
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Date: 11/30/2004 7:11:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47218
not a dubious claim at all. I've give you hard proof from a reliable source-- 83 percent identify themselves as Christian. Just because certain Christians would like to have a more religious society doesn't mean that Christians aren't influencing policies. It's just that the Christians who are influencing policy don't desire as strong a connection between church and state as these people. |
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Date: 12/1/2004 10:50:00 AM
From Authorid: 51173
"not a dubious claim at all. I've give you hard proof from a reliable source-- 83 percent identify themselves as Christian."---------------- I'm afraid it is a dubious claim. First is the theological arguement, first postulated by Christ Himself warning of wolves in sheep's clothing. Christianity alone, of all the world's religions, recognize that there are those who will profess Christ but not actually practice or live by His teachings. Secondly, according to two college textbooks - The Churching of America 1789-1985, and Shopping for Faith: The Sociology of Religion in America - note that self-identification does not equate practice. Max Baber's famous study Capitalism and the Protestant Work Ethic highlights why - economic success drives down Church attendance. Church attendance, with its subsequent instruction on Biblical principles, is shown to have an influence on political attitudes. Regular Church goers tend to have different political philosophies from those who are professing Christians but are not regular Church attendants. And those who do not attend Church regularly have a much more negative attitude toward regular Church goers than the converse. |
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Date: 12/1/2004 10:55:00 AM
From Authorid: 51173
"It's just that the Christians who are influencing policy don't desire as strong a connection between church and state as these people." ------- Those you speak of here don't support a strong Church/State union. But the founding fathers had envisioned the Church having a sociological function in society. "these people" are defending that function from those who wish to remove all reference to religion - particularly Christianity - from the public sector. |
Date: 12/2/2004 12:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 12600
still beating a dead dog...some things never change.  |
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Date: 12/3/2004 12:35:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47218
I do believe the term "Christian" applies to anyone who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus (i.e. identifies themselves as a Christian). Now, exactly what these teaching are varies from sect to sect and, really, from individual to individual. Every sect believes that they have the right version of the Christian belief and that everyone else is wrong, and so, if we are going to label people non-Christians because another group thinks they are wrong, then this entails that you are also not a Christian, because I guarantee that somewhere out there is someone who believes that you are wolf in sheep's clothing. |
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Date: 12/3/2004 12:38:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47218
I'm not arguing here for the justification of separation of church and state. I'm saying that here in the states we have sects of Christians who are fighting for against it-- it's not the anti-Christians and the athiests against the Christians. The numbers show that the former barely exist in this country. |
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Date: 12/3/2004 12:49:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47218
wow, Teep, I don't know who that comment was directed to, but it was rude and...rather meaningless. |
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Date: 12/3/2004 10:49:00 AM
From Authorid: 51173
" I do believe the term "Christian" applies to anyone who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus (i.e. identifies themselves as a Christian). " ------- Only in the broadest sociological terms (although it should be noted that your definition DOES exist.) There are certain doctrines that are shared among all Christian denominations, and despite all the disagreements over interpretations these certain doctrines are not questioned by Christians. Just to give 3 examples - Jesus' sacrifice as atonement for sin, a Triune Godhead, and the Virgin Birth. I think that to be a better definition, (but I believe we can agree to disagree on this point, Mollycat.) =') |
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Date: 12/3/2004 10:55:00 AM
From Authorid: 51173
"The numbers show that the former barely exist in this country." -------- This is where the debate gets interesting, because the arguement is that so-called "Liberal" denominations allow their political philosophies to drive their theology, pushing them into a broader "secularist" camp, where they are joined philosophically with atheists, non-Christians, etc. The splits in the Methodist and Presp. Churches were, at their heart, along these lines, with both sides claiming divine justification for their views. |
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Date: 12/3/2004 12:29:00 PM
From Authorid: 12600
Mollycat, I didn't mean it to offend, and I'm sorry that you feel my input is meaningless and rude. I simply meant that it has been over a year since I've been here, and I find it humorous that the same defenses and arguments are circulating. My apologies... |
Date: 12/3/2004 3:15:00 PM
From Authorid: 53284
There was a class action suit by city employees in (I believe) Berkley. The people sueing were christians and were being passed over for promotions etc. Just as any other group that exists there can be actions that are taken against christians.  |
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Date: 12/3/2004 4:02:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47218
I apologize for getting snappy with you Teep. I thought your comment was directed at someone personally. |
Date: 8/17/2005 3:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 63200
1) It is generally the ACLU who leads the charge in having the Ten Commandments removed from public/government space. I do not know how many ACLU members are professing Christians. 2) Why do Christians feel 'persecuted' in the U.S.? Well, because the popular culture is currently decidedly secular, and therefore, sinful. Biblical teaching and 'values' are not what Hollywood cranks out. Christians who rail that they are "being persecuted" in the U.S. are generally railing against the entire culture, and the prominence of sub-culture 'deviance'. (I think they are being silly, nobody's ever threatened to physically hurt me in this country for being/confessing Christianity. To *say* Christians are 'persecuted' in this country is a fallicious statement, and undermines what *real* persecution is. Nobody's been martyred in the U.S. recently, though some would definitely like to be, apparently, based on how they go about 'professing' their 'Christianity'.) Anyhow, sorry for the bump/late reply, this topic caught my eye. --EM of GW  |
