Date: 10/19/2004 8:03:00 AM
From Authorid: 2030
If these people are U.S. soldiers trying to move into Canada to avoid doing their duty then they are deserters. The U.S. military is all volenteer, they willingly signed up and took the oath of enlistment. They are required to do their duty. If they have what they think are high moral objections to doing that duty then they can refuse and face their punishment under the UCMJ. Trying to run to Canada is simply the act of a coward, nothing more.  |
Date: 10/19/2004 8:07:00 AM
From Authorid: 25390
5 people out of how many soldiers???  |
Date: 10/19/2004 8:15:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13119
BCAR I agree with you, did you know that this guy is going around Canada giving lectures about the evils of the US and how it is affecting him. I refused to go see him, I think he is a coward and a disgrace. Oddsmell, funny isn't it, how few people are doing this and yet it is supposed to be such a terrible war. Terrible or not the rest of the soldiers do what they are paid to do and go where they are told to go. Deserters used to be shot.  |
Date: 10/19/2004 8:47:00 AM
From Authorid: 25390
It is coward. Especially since he cannot get the gall to come into the US and say that.  |
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Date: 10/19/2004 8:55:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13119
And yet there are people who think he is justified. He is whining about the fact that he can be imprisoned and how he feels that, that is detrimental to his ability to function normally in the states.... HELLO ! ... he deserted, he is a deserter and a low life that enjoyed the money and the promise of an education but thought that he should be exempt while his buddies went over and fought the war that their country told them to fight. |
Date: 10/19/2004 9:23:00 AM
From Authorid: 5353
I say good for him. It's one thing to saddle up and run over in a full blown justifiable war, but it's completely another to stop and say 'Hey, I may be a soldier, but this is wrong.' Maybe these few are the only ones with the guts to stand up to their government, but know that they won't get a fair hearing if they had stayed in the states. They may have signed up, but like any other job, if they don't want to do it, they should be able to quit without the threat of going to jail. I'm guessing that the Labour Standards don't apply to the military... you know, the line that states 'an employee may refuse to perform a task that he deems dangerous and which the employer refuses to do himself.'  |
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Date: 10/19/2004 9:43:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13119
Silverhour, the military is built on discipline and a much harsher standard than any civilian employer, it has to be. The kid is a coward and sucked his country for everything that he could and when he found out he was actually going to have to put up or shut up he ran. He is using my country as a hidey hole, he is taking time away from a person that truly needs to claim asylum in Canada. He deserves jail time for deserting, if he was a man he would face up to that fact and go back to the states to face the music of his making. It doesn't matter if he felt it was an unjust war, he was a soldier and as such had a moral obligation to follow through with the good and the bad not go on the tour circuit in Canada. |
Date: 10/19/2004 9:46:00 AM
From Authorid: 3688
I gotta say I agree with ya completely magoo, though it did bring about a good discussion between me and silverhour   |
Date: 10/19/2004 9:52:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13119
umm, sorry DP!  P I just get so mad when I hear about this kid doing the tour circuit and crying poor me. How about all the poor mes who lived up to the obligations and died overseas, is he saying their deaths were meaningless. (I say they weren't meaningless, they fought and died at their country's request, they were patriotic and died believing in their righteousness) |
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Date: 10/19/2004 9:52:00 AM
From Authorid: 5353
So a soldier is so brainwashed and whipped that he has no chance to change his mind? By the sounds of it, his objection is to THIS war in particular, not 'oh no, I didn't know I would actually have to fight!' Every excuse the US government had at one time for this war has been discredited, it's time to drop it and bring the soldiers home, not send more. |
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Date: 10/19/2004 9:54:00 AM
From Authorid: 5353
And what if those beliefs proved to be misplaced? I feel sorry for those who have lost their lives, but I do think they were pointless deaths. I don't blame these soldiers for not wanting to be another one. |
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Date: 10/19/2004 10:00:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13119
It may be time to drop the war but they can't now it has progressed too far. He can say that it was because of this war but the fact remains that he is a deserter. Do you think that people should be allowed to just walk away from the military when they decide that they don't agree with their job? How would a country survive knowing that at anytime their soldiers can lay down arms and quit? Not very tactically sound. Even here in Canada, if they send you on tour and you don't want to go they can make you go and then process your release. |
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Date: 10/19/2004 10:03:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13119
to you their beliefs may be misplaced but to them they died with honour and people like this deserter are tainting that. If you want to be a deserter then fine, go for it, lose your backbone and run but don't have the utter audacity to go to another country and go on the tour circuit raising money and trying to claim you will be persecuted if you go back. Consequences to your actions is what it all boils down to. |
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Date: 10/19/2004 10:08:00 AM
From Authorid: 2030
Silverhour the military is not like any other job where you can just quit. After signing up for a certain number of years you are required to serve that term. And during that time you are required to follow all lawful orders from superior officers up to and including the comander in chief. To not follow those orders makes them guilty of refusing a lawful order and subject to punishment under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. This is not something new. Further to leave their posted duty location and to attempt to hide, flee or imigrate to another country is desertion, one of the most severe infractions of the UCMJ. And I'd also venture that traveling around another country giving speaches against the U.S. while still a member of our military would also make a person guilty of treason. The military is a whole different ball game than working at the quickie mart, and these guys knew darn well what they were getting into when they joined. They just thought they would never be called upon to do it. |
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Date: 10/19/2004 10:10:00 AM
From Authorid: 2030
Even so I would repeat what I said above, if these individuals feel so strongly and are motivated by priciple rather than cowardice, they should stand up back here and take their punishment. |
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Date: 10/19/2004 10:42:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13119
okay BCAR, totally unfair you come in and say exactly what I wanted to say. See, your time on Vancouver Island was good for you, taught you how to think and articulate properly! P |
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Date: 10/19/2004 10:47:00 AM
From Authorid: 2030
Vancouver Island, will be forever etched upon my mind and attitude. |
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Date: 10/19/2004 10:51:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13119
not sure if that's good or bad but I will accept it as good, by the way did you know that it is raining today? |
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Date: 10/19/2004 10:54:00 AM
From Authorid: 3688
RAIN? that's NOT FAIR lol |
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Date: 10/19/2004 11:03:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13119
its been raining since last night and hasn't stopped yet but at least it isn't SNOW |
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Date: 10/19/2004 11:05:00 AM
From Authorid: 3688
yeah yeah rub it in....you big MEANY lmao |
Date: 10/19/2004 11:12:00 AM
From Authorid: 15228
I think we need to get DOG the bounty hunter on the case. I would love to see these guys chained and sent over to Iraq to wait in their unit for court martial. I can dream.  |
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Date: 10/19/2004 11:36:00 AM
From Authorid: 2030
It rains for 20 minutes every hour on Vancouver Island. And that's considered a good day. |
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Date: 10/19/2004 12:11:00 PM
From Authorid: 5353
Things don't change if those who disagree just sit around and do nothing. They are speaking out against the war, being soldiers themselves, and refusing to do something that is clearly wrong. Like I said before, they wouldn't get a chance to speak out in the US, they would be silenced and buried in some jail. This is the only chance they'll get to voice their opposition. Only a fool follows blindly. They feel their orders are unjustified and therefore illegal, and therefore they are refusing to follow them. Frankly, I agree. |
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Date: 10/19/2004 12:46:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13119
you can agree and you may be right but for them to run away creates anarchy, what would happen if they all decided to run to Canada? Out of the thousands of soldiers overseas in Iraq there is 5 cowards who ran to Canada, what does that tell you. And don't say it means they are free thinkers because I am a free thinker and I stand up for what I believe in but I also know that I have a job to do and a clear cut legal obligation to not leave the others holding the bag while I run away. |
Date: 10/19/2004 2:38:00 PM
From Authorid: 62367
If this kid truly believes the war is morally wrong, he should refuse to go but he should also accept his punishment for doing so. He did volunteer to serve as opposed to being drafted. He knew he was "on call" for service to this nation whether he believed in the cause or not. Personally, I would not want to serve with such a person, I doubt if I would trust him.  |
Date: 10/19/2004 6:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
GOOD post.  |
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Date: 10/19/2004 6:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
I think BCAR said it all. |
Date: 10/19/2004 10:30:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
"And during that time you are required to follow all lawful orders from superior officers up to and including the comander in chief." I am glad this point was brought up. A soldier is required to follow all LAWFUL orders. Now, what is a lawful order? A lawful order is any order given which in no way violates the UCMJ, the Manual for Court Martials, The US Code, The Geneva Convention, International Law, or the Rules of Warfare. If an order violates any part of any of the above references, then it is deemed an unlawful order, and any soldier who follows such an order can be brought up on charges in the appropriate legal system for the law that was broken. There are ways to address an unlawful order, but rarely in cases such as this do those methods work. To date, there has been no
international consensus that this war was justified, or legal. If any international court was to rule that our actions in Iraq were illegal, then these soldiers would be justified in their actions. Until such time as it is decided whether we acted legally or illegaly, then these soldiers will be treated as deserters.  |
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Date: 10/20/2004 6:21:00 AM
From Authorid: 2030
Two Spirit brings up the defining point, the action in Iraq was authorized by the U.S. Congress and Senate. The commander in chief had full authority to commit troops. These soldiers were given a mobilization order, they were'nt asked to commit atrocities, harm anyone, or even actually fight. They were ordered to report for duty, and refused. They have no legal or moral ground to stand on. |
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Date: 10/20/2004 1:34:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13119
sooooo.... not to throw a spanner in the works but, isn't that what Kerry did. He did his time and then spoke out against the war? Just a question because I am not sure. |
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Date: 10/20/2004 4:29:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
BCAR, Congress did authorize the use of troops. The true defining point is whether or not the United States acted within accordance of International Law. There are several countries that believe we did not act according to International law, but waged war on a sovereign state without proof positive that the war was sunstantiated. So far, given the supposed reasons we went to war, and the fact that those reasons have yet to weigh out favorably, those who feel we began an illegal war have a strong leg to stand on. |
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Date: 10/20/2004 6:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 2030
Our troops are subject to orders from their commanders, not international law. If (big if) a governing body like the UN declares the Iraq war illegal then perhaps the commander in chief would face censure. But individual soldiers are still subject to the UCMJ. |
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Date: 10/21/2004 4:22:00 AM
From Authorid: 47296
Actually BCAR, they are subject to International Law in time of conflict. I use to teach the course that included International Law and the Rules of War as part of the annual recertification for my former security unit. Violation of those laws and rules is punishable as a war crime. Of course war crimes are usually levied aganst the losers, not the victors, in war. |
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Date: 10/21/2004 7:30:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13119
Two Spirit it is those 5 peoples opinion that it is an illegal war until such time that it is declared such they are in the wrong and are going about this the wrong way. There are many soldiers who don't agree with the war but are still fighting it because that was their orders, why should these 5 not be held accountable for their flagrant disregard for the orders/law |
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Date: 10/21/2004 4:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
Magoo, in my first response I wrote, "Until such time as it is decided whether we acted legally or illegaly, then these soldiers will be treated as deserters." As I stated, there are ways to address what one feels is an unlawful order, or a violation of applicable laws. |
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Date: 10/22/2004 8:08:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13119
Cool, thanks Two Spirit, my 10 pound smarty head was not getting the gist of the first comment. I am sorry. |
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Date: 10/25/2004 12:46:00 AM
From Authorid: 62793
I know this probably brands me as the political science major that I am...but quite frankly this guy is a coward who reaped the benefits of living in the society of the united states and then when the time came for him to give back to the society, he cut and ran. Think of Socrates. He was accused of treason to the state of athens (i think it was athens). All his friends tried to get him to break out of jail and run away. He argued that he would not be a good citizen and a good man if he ran from his punishment. |
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Date: 10/25/2004 7:38:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13119
It doesn't brand you as anything but someone who has common sense and a strong sense of moral fibre. |
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Date: 10/26/2004 12:06:00 AM
From Authorid: 62793
yeah well, we're a dying breed. :-) |
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Date: 10/26/2004 7:20:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13119
You know, he didn't just cut and run, he cut, ran and made money off of the tour circuit. got to see all of Canada on someone else's dime. |
