Date: 7/20/2004 10:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 45630
But the thing is this. By doing these things to these criminals the American soldiers responsible are going down to their level. They are making themselves look just as bad as the criminals are.  |
Date: 7/20/2004 10:23:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 3680
I agree but the situation over there is out of control. These people are horrible. Maybe in a schoolhouse here in the U.S. that will work, turning the other cheek. Not over there. You have to be stern, you have to be vicious, and you have to be able to beat the enemy at his own game. They will not stop. They will continue to do the things they do. And if we let up on them, that will make it eaiser for them to kill us. I am a peace loving guy, when it calls for peace. Or for people who can reason... Maybe if they noticed, hey, he doesnt want to fight, maybe we should listen to him. It's different over there. The only way to stop terrorist is to exterminate them, one by one...  |
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Date: 7/20/2004 10:30:00 PM
From Authorid: 45630
I'm not saying that, what I am saying is that by posting demeaning pictures and treating prisoners badly you are doing nothing more than provoking the Terrorists and also bringing yourself down to that level. |
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Date: 7/20/2004 10:34:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 3680
i see your point, to each his own.. I am probably a lil more biased than most towards this subject. I fought over there in the beginning with the 3rd ID, and I am going back in January.. Well, thanks for the nice clean debate... I appreciate it.... |
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Date: 7/20/2004 10:36:00 PM
From Authorid: 45630
no probs. |
Date: 7/20/2004 10:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 38751
I dont think you have a bias opinion , you have a very well educated opinion. You have been there , heck , you ARE an american soldier. You have a very good debate here - Living in new zealand you wouldnt beleive the endless badmouthing of America and its soldiers i hear. Perhaps if we take a closer look at the prisioner captured naked on camera , see that he may have killed someones father , raped someones mother or daughter. Take a closer look next time. Im not rooting for the Iraqi prisioners or the American Soldiers , im saying its so easy for people to judge.
Once again , an excellent debate and opinion DR ,but what else would we expect of you   |
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Date: 7/20/2004 10:52:00 PM
From Authorid: 45630
Devil with a Halo I hear that as well here in Australia. But I still think it is bringing ourselves down to their level by demeaning them. I think our soldiers have important work to do over their but I think that these guys should be cleaned out because it gives the whole army a bad name. |
Date: 7/20/2004 10:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 38751
I couldnt agree more , we dont send soldiers over there to do that. Im not at all agreeing with what they did , more-so agreeing with Devines point that they r made out to be innocent victims in all of this. Technically i guess they are in a sence , but , oh im confusing myself lol , Military politics isnt my strong point , infact , no politics are lol.
I know what im trying to say i just cant put it into words *blushes* |
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Date: 7/20/2004 11:00:00 PM
From Authorid: 45630
I think I know what your saying. I'm just saying that no matter how bad a person is they deserve to be treated in a civil manner. Their time will come. We should not judge them until the courts have judged them. |
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Date: 7/20/2004 11:03:00 PM
From Authorid: 38751
Definatly! I hate it when i cant get my point into words lol , its a good one too! :P |
Date: 7/21/2004 12:09:00 AM
From Authorid: 62383
It is wrong. Why do we have to act like them? prob because were just as bad.  |
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Date: 7/21/2004 12:19:00 AM ( Admin )
We have laws, even in war time. To the best of their ability every American has to follow the laws. If these soldiers broke the law then they face the justice system they were sent out there to defend. It's a sad situation and I'm sure it happens in every war and even closer to home, in our own cities. It must be pursued and stopped or there is no American way. However if your augument is the laws should change and these things should be allowed, then that is a different discussion. |
Date: 7/21/2004 5:08:00 AM
From Authorid: 160
It's about image, they have done more than what was done to them, far more! But the US is supposed to set the standard for human rights. It's political at this point. Most people would agree with you and I stay neutral about these matters but I have to say that when you weigh the two attrocities, the Iraqies have no problem with torture and humiliation because they have no consciences. All sides refuse to answer to their Cretor for such cruelty.  |
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Date: 7/21/2004 5:09:00 AM
From Authorid: 160
Creator! |
Date: 7/21/2004 5:24:00 AM
From Authorid: 8024
it is a very sad situation ... I don't feel sorry for the prisoners whe were so-called tortured @ all ... I feel sorry for the americans who got caught doing those things and had to be there ... the people and this country don't really understand what it is like to be under the conditions of which your speaking...they only know what the press relates to them...put under the same circumstances many would have probably done worse things I imagine...it's really sad how the media munipulates everything and make it out to be more than it is ...yes these things that happened were wrong but the real story behind what really happened won't ever be told by the press ... I think this is a very good post ... and I think I understand how you feel even though I am not over there seeing what you've seen ... just a very sads situation ... c  |
Date: 7/21/2004 5:33:00 AM
From Authorid: 18527
No one deserves to be tortured.  |
Date: 7/21/2004 8:16:00 AM
From Authorid: 13119
I disagree with you, I think that as a professional soldier there are rules and regs that have to be followed, when a few decide to go outside their ROEs and create their own little amusement at the expense of others then they forfeit the right to be called soldiers. I have the utmost respect for all soldiers and especially vets but these "soldiers" got what they deserved. I agree with you that alot of the people in the prison were there because of their own actions but it doesn't mean that two wrongs make a right. I like having clear cut objectives and rules of engagement, I don't want to have to worry about the jerk beside me going off on his own and making a hash of our mission, if they are willing to humilate people under them then what is stopping them from doing it at other times.  |
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Date: 7/21/2004 9:01:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 3680
hey everybody, thanks for the debate. most of all, thank you for nice clean debate. to each his own. we all have our own opinions, that's what makes us unique. it just goes to show that the days of conventional warfare are over with. it's a whole new ball game, a tougher one... again thank u all for your opinions. |
Date: 7/21/2004 11:46:00 AM
From Authorid: 13974
"1, who really cares? Most of the inmates in that prison are from from innocent." It has been shown that the large majority of the people arrested in Iraq WERE innocent. Can you tell me these men's exact crimes, or are you assuming guilt because our millitary would not arrest innocent people? ""Four U.S. Soldiers were killed today in a roadside bomb outside of Baghdad...... Meanwhile, these poor Iraqi civilians who are being torchered in a prison......" Get my drift? No? Okay, they're not innocent! These people are terrorist! They bombed New York with air planes!" You seem to have no idea what you are talking about. Are you just making up lies now in order to deffend your point? The Iraquis being killed over there did NOT attack America, nor were likely to have any involvement. You claim to be in the military and have been over there, but your total lack of knowlege on the subject of the UCMJ, or the rules of conduct during a time of war seem to say differently. You give us aperfect example of exactly what is wrong witht his conflic in the first place. 1. You do not understand military law. 2. You give the impression that you believe that all Iraqis are guilty because of their nationality. 3. You try and claim that American soldiers (who's names hometowns and such are regularly reported, while no Iraqi civilians are in this country) are just numbers, which is a blatant falsehood, be it intentional or not. "How about soldiers who are captured and assainated by being shot in the back of the head?" So because we have not gone as far as the enemy, it is ok to break the law? "drag their naked bodies through the street." But according to you forced nudity and humiliation is ok, but only when American's do it, right? "I know first hand they they get plenty of food, and plenty of water." So you served in that prison, and personally tried the food, and spent extended periods of time with the prisoners? "On top of that, they had a few naked photos of themselves snapped." Do you REALLY expect anyone to believe that? "I think it's a less than fair trade knowing that they just killed or try to kill some American soldiers." You know each of those people were guilty of this, or are you making an assumption? "They're not innocent victims, they're terrorists" And you know this... how? "and they deserve much more abuse than that." I don't even think I need to comment on that one.  |
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Date: 7/21/2004 11:47:00 AM
From Authorid: 13974
If you can prove each of these prisoners in these photos and the others were guilty of terrorist acts, and had done what you claim, I would love to see it. |
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Date: 7/21/2004 11:52:00 AM
From Authorid: 13974
And yes, we are all intitled to our own opinion, but yours scare me because they are dangerous, and you say that you are in a position to use them for a foul purpose by going over there. |
Date: 7/21/2004 4:34:00 PM
From Authorid: 55967
Very good argument Phydeux; excellent points. But I did hear that Abu Ghraib (in particular) housed not only captured Iraqi soldiers, but also civilian criminals that committed crimes against not only U.S. soldiers, but also against the Iraqi community itself. I therefore would say that this prison did house prisoners of whom, at the least, were mostly POW's and civilian criminals that deserved to be there. Good points, though.  |
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Date: 7/21/2004 4:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 13974
SOME of the prisoners there were of that nature, still, you cannot prove this. Again this is another assumption based on vague reports coming from thosw who could be held accountable for thse actions and therfore not reliable. But thank you! |
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Date: 7/22/2004 2:01:00 AM
From Authorid: 160
I haven't heard a single one say anything about the women that are treated like dogs in that culture. If caught committing adultery they are shot in the back of the head, and if they have an infant they will wait until it is weaned and then she is executed. The male gets away with it though. Or if a woman is raped she is executed, not her attacker. These are truly innocent victims, not the ones that place themselves there. They know the chances they take and many have fallen victim to assassins and people that have no morals or consciences. Unfortunatly all is fair in war, and there is nothing more that can be done. People are looking to the wrong source to fix these problems it isn't the US or Britan or even the UN. It's the God of the bible, the God of peace but people will not look to him for the answers. This mess will continue to grow until it is beyond human help or intervention and prisoner abuse will continue as well as all human right violators. |
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Date: 7/22/2004 7:06:00 AM
From Authorid: 8024
though many of arab women that is there faith pamjo,, that is what they choose ... they are very different from us ... |
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Date: 7/22/2004 7:13:00 AM
From Authorid: 160
I don't think that they choose this life when they are born into it. And for the woman that they executed in the stadium to crowds as if it were for entertainment, tell that to her family, she was the one that had to wait until her baby was weaned. This society is beyond human help. |
Date: 7/22/2004 9:25:00 AM
From Authorid: 19613
sounds like a crusade to me pammyjoe.  |
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Date: 7/22/2004 2:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 160
no, it sounds more like the human race is in trouble. |
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Date: 7/22/2004 3:33:00 PM
From Authorid: 19613
thats a pretty sweeping statement. i mean relativly speaking the world is far more stable now than at other times in history. |
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Date: 7/22/2004 4:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 160
I suppose that is a matter of perspective. When people can cut the head off of a living human being, cut them up in pieces and drag them behind cars through the city where children can openly play and see these things, this breeds even more hatred and contempt for life. I just don't see a positive outlook for the human race without intervention from the Creator. |
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Date: 7/22/2004 4:21:00 PM
From Authorid: 160
I wonder if any of uss know the effect this has on us. Will we become callous or insensitive as they are? Our society is supposed to be the leader in human rights yet there is more crime and hate killings every year, more children murdered, parents being murdered by their children. It will only get worse. |
Date: 7/23/2004 7:53:00 AM
From Authorid: 2030
Personally, based on the photos and reports from Abu Graub, I would call it abuse based on our standards, but I would definately not call it torture. Most American speciaol forces personel have been trained to handle captivity under conditions much worse than seen in the photos. And I don't begrudge devineraven his opinion. He is THERE, his point of view carries much more weight than any of us arm chair generals here. Dire pronoucements and condemnation should come from those with first hand knowledge, you won't get them from me. Take care Raven, get home safe.  |
Date: 7/23/2004 11:51:00 AM
From Authorid: 16442
Well said Magoo.  |
Date: 6/20/2007 7:36:00 AM
From Authorid: 21839
Being in the military & being a military brat, I agree with both sides. You have to do what is right regardless of what has been done in the past but at the same time we are sitting in the comfort of our home/office, we are not in a war zone, we don't have people shooting at us all the time. I know in the military the cover alot of things up & they tell you what they want you to know (example: the football players "friendly fire" incident, we were told the enemy killed) I think the incident of the pictures is a handful compared to thousands of soldiers.... I do believe they brought same on the U.S. & made it harder for the soldiers over there to do their job....  |
