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Date: 5/1/2004 3:57:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12133
I would not be surprised AT ALL if this doesn't get us attacked again. A country in fear, for the actions of a few idiots, who didn't think of anything but the stupid fun that they were having.  |
Date: 5/1/2004 3:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 47218
I think they should be handled by our military, and if our military leaders have any sense about what is good for our military and our country, then they will do everything within their means to make an example of these bozos.  |
Date: 5/1/2004 4:02:00 PM
From Authorid: 50864
tHAT IS IS not every soldier!!!!!!!!!!!!!! People are peole good bad and in between. The soldiers who are doing that are just not good people. I had an aquaintence who told me (this was over 30 years ago) tha he joined the national guard so he could beat up Black People during the riots and unrest in the late 60's. He was just a sad wrong minded person nothing to do with the guard. He justsaw the guard as away to exercise his impluses If those soldiers who did the torturing of Iraqi POWs had not joined the army they may have been in a gang or run with bullies or even became police. Just something that would give them a sense of power over others. They could have become jail or prison guards and done the same thing. Yes the services has to moniter and should have been monitering for stuff like this but the army alone is not to blame. The men who did still made the choice to do this Power can be a corupting thing and can cause great wrongs if misused or in the wrong hands  |
Date: 5/1/2004 4:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 58078
Wow this is a great post. I'm not sure how I feel about it at this moment. It's raised some questions now and made me think. I'll have to get back to you on this one.  |
Date: 5/1/2004 4:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 62104
I found it very horrifying also, it made me feel very sick and shocked. Under no circumstances did those prisioners deserve to be treated less than human and to be belittled in that kind of way- it just shows how sick minded that they can be and why? they are supposed to be upstanding citizens of our country and fighting for good not to go out and torment those people- the messages they are sending is just wrong and it makes them no better than a criminal who deserves to be punished for their actions. I love America, it is my country of birth and I will always show my support where I can however, this kind of news is just very, very dissapointing. To your second question, I really don't know....that would take some thought.  |
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Date: 5/1/2004 4:08:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12133
I fully believe that SOMETHING must be done, to show the world that the US as a whole, is NOT like this, and we find it WRONG. If we don't then we look like we are condoning it. I for one, do not want to have to look over my shoulder 24/7, when these people want revenge. If it was US troops that had this done to, we would be screaming for retribution. I think the Iraqis should be shown that this is not our way, it is the actions of a few stupid people, and they do not represent America, as a whole. |
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Date: 5/1/2004 4:17:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12133
I would MUCH rather have these idiots pay for their crimes, including losing their lives, if that is the sentence, than to have this come back on the American people as a whole. How would you like for someone in your family to have to die, as a result of their retribution? They did the crime, let THEM deal with the consequences. |
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Date: 5/1/2004 4:24:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12133
I also feel, that if the US DOES get attacked, as a result of these idiots actions, for every person that dies, each of them should face a murder charge over it. |
Date: 5/1/2004 4:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 53836
I was sickened by the display of inhumanity on behalf of ours AND the British soldiers..it only fuels the enemy's fires...I don't however believe they should face an Arabic court, but I do believe they should be held responsible for their actions and face whatever punishment the military courts find just...It's sick and a big slap in the face of everyone who believed our soldiers AND British soldiers are above and beyond such disgusting conduct...I think we are going to end up paying the costs...just my op...  |
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Date: 5/1/2004 4:40:00 PM
From Authorid: 53836
Crash, I agree that it will evoke in action against us as a nation..kinda scary to imagine what's to come of all this. |
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Date: 5/1/2004 4:46:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12133
But what would the wrold's reaction have been, if the Nazis had been tried in a German court? We would have thought that justice was not done properly. They should NOT be tried by the US, at BEST, they should be tried by a third party, just like every other war criminal has been. If its good enough for our enemies, it should be good enough for the US. |
Date: 5/1/2004 4:48:00 PM
From Authorid: 53836
Excellent point, Crash...food for thought, for sure.. I'm just not sure their actions call for the death chamber, you know..gosh, I you've stumped me. (I know, not hard  |
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Date: 5/1/2004 4:50:00 PM
From Authorid: 53836
you know what...As long as the arse that filmed the sick and sadistic acts is tried along with them, I don't see why a third party could not try them.......what about the UN?? |
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Date: 5/1/2004 4:56:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12133
I think the UN would appoint a court to try them, just like they have done in previous conflicts. |
Date: 5/1/2004 5:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 10344
Man it was just sick....the soldiers involved should be given a dishonorable discharge and prison time. How sick of individuals do you have to be to find something like that entertaining?  |
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Date: 5/1/2004 5:20:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12133
Saddam tortured many people in his time, and the call went out for him "Dead or Alive". Yet US troops torture, and people call for "prison time" |
Date: 5/1/2004 5:24:00 PM
From Authorid: 27534
My opinion is that it is what it is.....a demonstration of abuse and that any one in the world is capable of it. As to you author...I personally want to thank you for serving your country and being willing to put yourself into harm's way. Such inhumanities would remain such if there were not those in authority to bring back in line such incidents whether they be severe abuse or incidental. Man's inhumanity to man has been going on since the dawn of man. As an American I am distressed by it, not surprised ,and take confidence in a leadership that will address it appropriately while preventing it from occurring again.  |
Date: 5/1/2004 5:50:00 PM
From Authorid: 2030
What they did was wrong, and most people who have served in the military know that often the dregs of the service are assigned things like prisoner gaurd duty. They should be tried by the military under the Uniform Code Of Military Justice (UCMJ) it is very specific about the treatment of prisoner in accordance with the Geneva accords. My observation however is that I've seen 6 posts so far on the tri sites citing the deplorable actions of these soldiers. Yet I saw one about the American contractors burned and hung from bridges in Faluja, no posts about other American hostages shown with AK 47's and machetes held to their heads, and few posts about the continued homicide bombings of civilian installations UN facilities, Iraqi police murders and using civilians as human shields. Who is inhumane? Where do people,s sympathies lie?  |
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Date: 5/1/2004 5:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 2030
Also as for the UN, in the past the UN has held war crimes trials for individuals who were not held accountable by their own government. These soldier and their leadership all the way up to a female brigadier general ARE being held accountable. |
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Date: 5/1/2004 7:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 61901
Being former Military you should know, All military personnel are subject to the UCMJ. I also can see you have no understanding of Battle field stress. Should this soldier be punished for being a trained killer? Do you know what its like, to have seen your friends killed? Day in Day out! Death is all around you, you are so afraid at times, you wet your pants. My friend, that does something to your head. After a while you become numb,and even ruthless. Its the nature of war. And when you come home, the memories of combat also follow you. We send these troops into combat to create death and destruction and people like you want to punish them.  |
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Date: 5/1/2004 8:00:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12133
Ranger, fighting a war is one thing. The things these people did to prisoners, is another. This type of behavior in combat and non combat situations. Trained to kill? Yes. But also trained in the CORRECT way to handle, question, and treat prisoners. This is nt soldiers doing their job. These are scum, tarnishing the uniform of the MANY people who have been in similar situations, or worse, who did not have to stoop to these levels. |
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Date: 5/1/2004 8:03:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12133
And BCAR, most countries are not like the US. People that do such things in other countries are usually praised, or it is swept under the rug. The UCMJ, at its best, will take care of these people in a fair, and impartial way. They will be tried, and punished, without regard to rank, medals, or anything else. However, most countries do not follow this same rigid military structure, and can only see what would happen, in THEIR country, and that being that most of them would not be punished. For the safety of the rest of the country, in such a highly publicized issue, a firm, and definitively unbiased ruling MUST be made, to try to head off retribution for these actions. |
Date: 5/1/2004 8:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 16442
Ranger X, Crash was in Desert Storm......  |
Date: 5/1/2004 8:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 21277
funny how no one says anything about the Terrorists killing those italian soldiers, but when America humiliates enemy soldiers, o my gosh call the authorities... those enemies deserved for what they get.. you think if they capture a U.S. soldier that they follow geneva?  |
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Date: 5/1/2004 8:08:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12133
Ranger X, I was in D co 2/327th Infantry, during Operation Desert Storm. I have been in combat situations, but that did not make me want to treat prisoners as subhumans. I could differentiate between combat, and non-combat. |
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Date: 5/1/2004 8:14:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12133
Tonyhawk, when we begin following the same actions of terrorists, that makes us terrorists ourselves. We want to present to the world how good we are, and how contientious our people are, and them a few people like this ruin everything the rest of the military has worked long and hard to accomplish. Probably 90% of the good the US has done there will now be forgotten, and these acts of a few idiots will stand out in their mind, showing the disposition of all Americans. |
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Date: 5/1/2004 8:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 16442
People make me sick with their need for "revenge". All revenge does is cause more revenge and a never ending circle. You people need to get a clue.... |
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Date: 5/1/2004 8:15:00 PM
From Authorid: 16442
Tonyhawk, if you have missed all the Americans that were irate when things were done to our military and the military of our allies, then you must live in a cave! |
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Date: 5/1/2004 8:18:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12133
The US has tried to set itself up as "The Peace Keeprs of the World", yet, when someone does something to an AMerican, that is wrong, most people want to trade tit for tat. An eye for an eye, so to speak. We cannot be the peace keepers, if we continue to stoop to their levels. Are we going to gain more allies, and more support, by showing people ho wAmericans can handle things, or should get "get revenge" and show we are no better than the enemy? |
Date: 5/1/2004 9:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 42945
it made me feel sick to the stomach, and it also frightened the heck out of me as to what those people (enemy) does to their prisoners that we dont get to hear about....I know two wrongs dont make a right, but there is no such thing as all is fair in war...I loather all wars...hugs  |
Date: 5/1/2004 11:04:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
This war with the Middle East cannot be won so it will be everlasting. It is more tahn any other war ever fought, religion is playing a huge part. Middle Eastern countries will not easily change, they will not bend, and they have a deep hatred for the US. The end won't come as easily as we think. As for rogue troops, their conscience and acts are deplorable. They have brought even more hatred and the US will convict them, they have no alternative. Whether by court or by simply "leaving them on their own" to face court martial, they will be on their own.  |
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Date: 5/2/2004 8:23:00 AM
From Authorid: 2030
From the replies I think most people would feel the UCMJ and military courts will hold these soldiers accountable. Knowing the general feeling amoung fellow soldiers I would bet they are made an example of. Again a corrupt and biased UN has no jurisdiction or right to try American soldiers. |
Date: 5/2/2004 10:59:00 AM
From Authorid: 61977
UCMJ all the way. They along with their chain of command should be court martialed and punished accordingly for they did not follow the laws of war. PERIOD.  |
Date: 5/2/2004 2:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 21867
UCMJ all the way...giving this over to the UN would be like handing your Happy Meal to Rosanner Barr for safe-keeping...  |
Date: 5/2/2004 2:24:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
lol @ Agent Smith, it should be handled by the UCMJ just like it always is, you don't change the way you do things because some people are afraid of retaliation, but since I agree with the rest, I'll go try to find myself a clue  |
Date: 5/2/2004 3:45:00 PM
From Authorid: 62060
wow, an un-patriotic post from Crash... But I do agree with you. SpaceCase, your continued use of 'AND British' was interesting...  |
Date: 5/2/2004 4:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 53961
What this group did was wrong; plain and simple. They should and will be taken care of by a United States military court of law. Let us remember that this behavior DOES NOT and SHOULD NOT label ALL military MP's as people who break the rules on prisoner care. That would be like saying all parents abuse their children, as a small group do. This is really a disgrace to the United States. What WERE they thinking?...  |
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Date: 5/2/2004 8:43:00 PM
From Authorid: 47218
so let me get this straight-- we invade Iraq in order to "free" the Iraqis from cruel torture by their dictator, and then, according to a couple of you, when our soldiers subject individuals to the same sort of torture, it's justified because some of things that have happened to our troops? oy, the contradictions! |
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Date: 5/3/2004 3:19:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12133
No, this is NOT an anti-patriotic post. I still FULLY stand behind out country, and our troops. However, these jerks (I refuse to call them soldiers, making them equal to the rest of the military, hopefully serving honorably.) UCMJ? That works, as long as the rest of the world knows the outcome, to hopefully stop any retaliation on their part. I say this not in fear for myself, bu for the rest of the Americans who have done nothing to deserve retaliation for. |
Date: 5/3/2004 4:40:00 AM
From Authorid: 47296
If they are tried under the UCMJ, you can bet the rest of the world WILL know the outcome. The government will make sure that this is as publicized as the trial of Lt. Cally for the My Lai massacre in Vietnam. The only difference this time will be that there will be no cover up, and no scapegoat. The Geneva Convention is very strict in it's defining treatment of prisoners, and when violations are found, then the government that has control over those troops responsible does have first right of authority over those troops. If that government does not exercise property authority, then war crimes charges can be brought against the government.  |
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Date: 5/3/2004 1:43:00 PM
From Authorid: 13119
I know that they should be charged by their military but I don't know that they will be given the proper sentence. I know that when the pilot killed 4 of our soldiers and hurt a bunch of others he basically got off on the charges. they blamed Canada for being where they were and not using the equipment. Whatever happened to the ATC that told the pilot it was okay? See for me, I don't know if the sentence they get will be just. All I know is that any American that I have served with has been beyond reproach and very professional in their outlook.  |
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Date: 5/3/2004 1:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 13119
And one more thing, for those that continually try and bring up the Americans that were tortured and the Italians who were killed by terrorists. They are tragedies, yes, but they are from countries that Americans hold beneath them, in terms of humanity. America is held up as an example of how to treat others and when someone does something like this it is more of a shock because it is unexpected. That is the reason you have more posts on this, it is not of the norm!! |
Date: 5/3/2004 1:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 13974
Oh, BCAR, if I could do the slow dramatic movie clap here I would. Brilliant speach, you managed to say that the soldiers were guilty and STILL manage to show contempt for those who find disgust in their actions. You have skills. No, in response to your questions, why was there only one post about the mutilations? Maybe because that is what the ENEMY does, and we don't expect much better from them, could also have something to do with outr occupation of their country. Do I condone it, no, I say it is brutal, and unneccesary, but shouldn't we be more upset they were killed in the first place? Should we be upset about the hostages? You mean to tell me that we should be shocked that people entered hostile territory, known to contain guerilla troops, and we should be shocked and outraged they were taken hostage? Hmmm... se this is called a war, and that is something that happens. It isn't as if these people who were taken hostage were sitting in their living room, watching Jeopardy, and these guys busted into their homes and took them. They entered hostile territory of their own free will. Do I think "Well, they deserve what they get." Of course not, but I also am not so foolish as to think that these people had no idea what they were getting into, and they decided to take the risk as grown, presumably intelligent adults. If I ran headlong into a crossfire would you find it tragic, or just stupid? And did anyone say the people shooting at us were humane? Did we deffend any of them in any way? I don't believe so, so you may want to rethink that. Also, do you not beleive that while some people act like animals, we should hold our own servicemen/women to a higher standard? Shouldn't we expect more from them than we do from the enemy? Or is a uniform a license to do whatever the heck you like, as long as you can point at someone else and say "Well they were doing bad things too!" By the way, for all those who found a wqay to condone this behavior, or at least find it understandable, what exactly were the crimes of each of these Iraqis who were in the photos, what were each of them there for, can you tell me?  |
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Date: 5/3/2004 1:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 13974
We are supposedly freeing thse people from this kind of thing, yet you use the people that we are freeing them from as an example of why it is understandable for our troops to act like this. This is what happens when you imbed the thought that the people you are fighting are no longer human, the ability to see their countrymen as human is deminished, and once they are not human to you anymore, you can do whatever you like to them. Such is the price of war. This is not exactly an isoalted incident. |
Date: 5/3/2004 4:36:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
o.k.-this is my opinion. It may be wrong, and it may be morally reprehensible to others, but this is truly how I feel. I am a Pollyanna when it comes to war. I want to bury my head in the sand, and I don't want to know the fine details of what happens on a battlefield. BUT here is why I feel as I do.....I was born in 1961. I lietrally grew-up watching the Vietnam War on T.V. at dinnertime. (My Uncle died 6/64 after two tours of duty in a "police action" helping the French. He was on his way home when his plane exploded over Toyko Harbor). YES, I heard about 19-year old soldiers taking 'Cong ears as trophies, YES, I heard about rape, YES.....I heard. But, these people, these soldiers, these heros, are what stand between myself, and a burqua. Or worse. Do I condone what those soldiers did? Let me turn this around, these people, my soldiers, male & female, are facing death, torture, and daily humiliation. They have seen dead bodies defiled, they know that our male & female soldiers are sodimized, and worse.I read one story about a female soldier breaking up an argument between two tribal leaders arguing over who was going to rape a 10-year old boy. These Prisoners were humilated. O.k......they were NOT Tortured, and if a Female soldier was laughing at a male prisoner (censored), than you know what? It was a lot nicer that if the Iraqi's would have captured her. Remember how mad we were on 9/11? Don't you think you could have strangled the terrorists with your bear hands on that day, given the chance? Well, guess what, every day IS 9/11 in Iraq. Let the Military judge their own. This is not our buisness. I really feel this way, I am sorry to those I disappoint.  |
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Date: 5/3/2004 6:09:00 PM
From Authorid: 13974
Spirit, so the actions of others justify the actions of US troops? September Eleventh gives them the right to act like animals, and do what they want to anyone of Arabic decent? They can do what they like to mentally destroy and humiliate any Iraqi they want because of September Eleventh? That gives them a license to act however they want, and become irrational, uncivilised morons ignoring the law? So you would say that a soldier can rape a woman if he likes, I mean, he would not be physically torturing her? It is likely he could inflict no more physical harm on her than was inflicted on these prisoners. Sure, that sounds like a rational idea. Because these people have seen what they have, they can do whatever the heck they want to Iraqis, that makes a whole lot of sense. Hey, I am an American, I was affected by 9/11, I was in the military, I saw combat, I think I am gonna find me a muslim woman, sexually assault her, take pictures, invite a bunch of people over while I do it and have a big ol' party, Sound good to you Spirit Child? Heck, I'll send you the videotape. |
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Date: 5/3/2004 10:24:00 PM
From Authorid: 38751
ok ill probably get a few angry comments back from this , but as a non america , this stuff makes the USA look REALLY bad , not the just army , the WHOLE usa , and lets face it your not everyones friend. This isnt speaks for every individual but the actions of some in your country seem to ruin it for everyone , other countries r the same but the USA is always in the spotlight. If these men did this to someone on the streets the would be punished so WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE HERE! I was discusted by the images and reports i saw and am afraid to say it makes the USA look bad , which is upsetting because 98% of americans are awesome people.  |
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Date: 5/3/2004 10:36:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
So we're going to democratize the Middle East? Who do we think we are? In the first place, it can't be done. In the second place, it can't be done. In the third place, if some of the people in that region beg us for help to get democracy rolling, we should do what seems reasonable to help, but it still can't be done. Consider Kuwait. We stormed into Kuwait, ousted Hussein, killed who knows how many hundreds of thousands, and what is going on there now? Women still cannot vote or attend college with males. There is still a "Royal Family" with actual powers, unlike the figurehead monarch in the UK. Strange kind of democracy to my mind. Then there's Afghanistan. We bombed an already savaged nation to within an inch of its life, after the Soviets had had an 8 year go of it. Result? The Taliban and Al-Qaeda are both regrouping, terrorists can find safe haven there, the miserable residents are still finding themselves caught in the cross-fire, and US Marines are still in that ravaged place. As we bomb civilians and soldiers alike, all the talk about the Rules of War are preposterous. We are allowed to kill soldiers, but not humiliate them. What sense does that make? |
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Date: 5/4/2004 5:01:00 AM
From Authorid: 47296
In war, there are laws and rules which all countries that sign the Geneva Covention are required to follow, whether the people they are fighting follow them or not. The insurgents in Iraq may not follow those rules, but the US as a signatory of the Geneva Convention must follow them. |
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Date: 5/4/2004 2:15:00 PM
From Authorid: 53836
I know this is a little late, but I wanted to clear up the AND British statement...if you missed it on the news...the British soldiers were guilty of inhumane treatment of the prisoners as well...I just put the emphases on AND, because Crash didn't include them in the post...that's all...nothing more. |
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