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FACTS AGAINST ABORTION

  Author: 62243  Category:(Debate) Created:(2/16/2004 11:36:00 PM)
This post has been Viewed (16328 times)

I realize that this is the third post on abortion in two weeks. However, here I try to present much more factual appeal than emotional appeal. This is my arguement which I posted on another debate forum recently:

What is life? Life is defined as...

"The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism."

Francis J. Beckwith: "Pregnancy begins at conception, the time at which the male sperm and the female ovum unite. What results is called a zygote, a one-celled biological entity, a stage in human development through which each of us has passed (just as we have passed through infancy, childhood, and adolescence).

There is no doubt that the zygote is a living being. It fulfills the four requirements for life: (1) metabolism, (2) growth, (3) reproduction, and (4) response to stimuli. The debate is this: is this fully human life? I believe that science beautifully shows that this is indeed the case.

"First, the human conceptus — that which results from conception and begins as a zygote — is the sexual product of human parents. Hence, insofar as having human causes, the conceptus is human.

"Second, not only is the conceptus human insofar as being caused by humans, it is a unique human individual, just as each of us is. Resulting from the union of the female ovum (which contains 23 chromosomes) and the male sperm (which contains 23 chromosomes), the conceptus is a new — although tiny — individual. It has its own unique genetic code (with forty-six chromosomes), which is neither the mother's nor the father's. From this point until death, no new genetic information is needed to make the unborn entity a unique individual human. Her (or his) genetic make-up is established at conception, determining her unique individual physical characteristics — gender, eye color, bone structure, hair color, skin color, susceptibility to certain diseases, etc. That is to say, at conception, the "genotype" — the inherited characteristics of a unique human being — is established and will remain in force for the entire life of this individual. Although sharing the same nature with all human beings, the unborn individual, like each one of us, is unlike any that has been conceived before and unlike any that will ever be conceived again. The only thing necessary for the growth and development of this human organism (as with the rest of us) is oxygen, food, and water, since this organism — like the newborn, the infant, and the adolescent — needs only to develop in accordance with her already-designed nature that is present at conception."

French geneticist Jermoe L. LeJeune, while testifying before a Senate Subcommittee, asserted: "To accept the fact that after fertilization has taken place a new human has come into being is no longer a matter of taste or opinion. The human nature of the human being from conception to old age is not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence."

In other words. You are fully and uniquely human at the very instance of conception! There is no science that disagrees with this! ___________________________________________________________________

Here is a timeline from the time of conception to the time of birth: PLEASE READ:

-- twenty days after conception the foundations of the child's brain, spinal cord, and entire nervous system have been established. By the sixth week, this system will have developed so well that it will be controlling the child's muscles even though the woman may not know she's pregnant.

-- thirty days after conception: the primary brain is seen. -- thirty-third day: the cerebral cortex, the part of the central nervous system which governs motor activity as well as intellect may be seen.

-- day forty to forty three: brain waves can be detected at this time.

-- "During the second month, the eyes, ears, nose, toes, and fingers make their appearance; the skeleton develops; the heart beats; and the blood — with its own type — flows. The unborn at this time has reflexes and her lips become sensitive to touch. By the eighth week her own unique fingerprints start to form, along with the lines in her hands. A vast majority of abortions are performed during this time, despite the scientific facts which clearly show that an individual human life is developing, as it would after birth, from infant to child to adolescent to adult."

-- Professor John T. Noonan says that by the end of the second month of pregnancy, the child is able to feel pain. From the "facts of brain and nerve development, the pained expressions on the faces of aborted fetuses, the known ability to experience other sensations at this time, and the current methods by which abortions are performed, Noonan concludes from his research that as soon as a pain mechanism is present in the fetus — possibly as early as day 56 — the methods used will cause pain."

-- third month: Characteristic of the third month is movement. The unborn begins to swallow, squint, swim, grasp with her hands, move her tongue, and suck her thumb. Organs undergo development: salivary glands, taste buds, stomach, and digestive glands. She also begins to urinate.

-- fourth month: Growth. Her weight increases six times - to about one half of her birth weight. At this time she can also hear her mother's voice.

-- fifth month: Hair, skin, nails develop. The child can dream and cry. At this time, however, sadly, it is perfectly legal to kill this unborn human by abortion for any reason her mother so chooses.

-- remaining months: the baby continues to develop, responds to mother's voice, can taste food, etc, while patiently and anxiously awaiting its first birthday.

Can a person still honestly say that the child inside a mother's womb is not alive? That it's not human? Scientifically, you have no logical foundation for a claim like that.

It is so important to know that you - the person reading this - did not come from a zygote, your once were a zygote. You did not come from an infant, you once were an infant. You have always been human, biologically, and have always had a distinct and specific spiritual existence. God fore-knew you as a unique creation of his - you were created for a distinct and unique purpose. How many of these children were given the opportunity to decide for themselves that they preferred not to live? How many of these children were given the chance to look at all of life's gifts and joys, and say "nah, i'll pass."? None. Murder is defined as depriving someone of life. Abortion is murder. The scientific facts clearly testify to this. ________________________________________________________________ Debate: Am I right or wrong? Is abortion murder or is it not? If you disagree with my stance, provide a REASON for your stance (Remember this is not a "share your opinion" forum - It is a "debate" forum).

~Ender

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Date: 2/16/2004 11:49:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 62243    http://www.htmlbible.com/abortstats.htm --> Visit the above web address. It is a comparison of the number of deaths in all the American wars compared to the number of deaths by abortion in America since 1973. Those thirty-five million children were not potential humans, they were humans with great potential. Man deprived them of that. How do you know that one of those 35,000,000 children was not the future finder of the cure for cancer? Will you die from cancer because that child was not doing his graduate work at Cornell when you were on your death-bed? How many will suffer from a future epidemic because one of those children was not where she needed to be to discover the antidote? Minkind has "developed" from his first sin - his disobedience to God - to his first murder, to the murder of his fellow man in war, to the torture in concentration camps, to murder by the thousands with atomic bombs, to the murder by the millions upon millions by abortion. The only difference (besides number of deaths) between the Nazi holocaust (6 million deaths) and abortion in America (35 million deaths) is that these young children didn't have the chance to even attempt to do anything to save themselves! WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO THE HUMAN RACE? *ENDER*

Date: 2/16/2004 11:51:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 62243    i'll be back sometime late tomarrow to reply to any who read all that. *ENDER*
Date: 2/17/2004 12:54:00 AM  From Authorid: 7830    Seems to me that the chicken that was killed for your dinner last week fullfills the requirements for being a living being, same with the spider that you squished that you found sitting harmlessly in your bedroom corner (examples of people's hypocrisy). What's the difference between these metabolizing, growing, responding to stimuli, and reproducing life forms that people make no debate on, and humans? Are we so arrogant as to believe we're really MORE important than every other living creature that supports our ecosystem? This abortion debate has really been beat into the ground.  
Date: 2/17/2004 1:41:00 AM  From Authorid: 32806    Ok, let me give you a scenario? A zygotes continued growth is going to kill the woman it is completely dependant on and without whom it would instantly die. Who are YOU going to murder?  
Date: 2/17/2004 2:36:00 AM  From Authorid: 45684    You know...all the stats in the world are not going to change MY mind. I have seen children who are treated like dirt by women because they didn't want them in the first place. It's a sad thing, but I still believe the choice is the woman's. Short of making people get a license before they can have sex, I don't see what else can be done other than the option of abortion. Oh, and "What ever happened to the human race?" Ahem..the world is SOOOO over populated as it is. Bringing another child into the world is NOT doing it a favor. Oh, and it is funny that you brought up cancer because I read somewhere recently that back in the 40's (or something close to that), a man DID find a cure for cancer. And do you know what was done with him? He was shipped out of the country. I realize that doesn't have much to do with the post, just thought I'd through it in there anyway.  
Date: 2/17/2004 2:46:00 AM  From Authorid: 33925    Hmmmm...What about that baby that was born with the partial head attached to her head?? That was a living organism, yet everyone was happy to hear that it was going to be removed from the baby. I would think that since it too was a living organism that people who are pro life would stand up and shout from the rooftops "MURDER" when the surgery was performed and especially when that poor little baby died after surgery..Plants are living organisms, bugs, maggots, flies, ....the list goes on and on and on.....  
Date: 2/17/2004 6:21:00 AM  From Authorid: 29387    I'd have to agree with you Technicolor. (Btw, debates are nothing more than well-rehearsed opinions. You're making your stance based on the facts you've found. Someone can still look at these facts, and still hold the same opinion...like me.)  
Date: 2/17/2004 7:22:00 AM  From Authorid: 32133    sometimes i cant believe how many people still try to justify KILLING a baby even after this.im not talking about anyone who replied to this post but others ive seen like this.  
Date: 2/17/2004 8:00:00 AM  From Authorid: 58611    We are all entitiled to our own opinions, but that does not mean we should shove them down others throats just because someone does not agree. I also dont believe that we should be stripped of our rights just because someone thinks abortions are wrong, I think that abortion serves a purpose on many different levels and that it should be kept legal so that we dont return to the days of butcher shops in back alleys.  
Date: 2/17/2004 8:32:00 AM  From Authorid: 27046    How do you know that one of those 35,000,000 children weren't the next Hitler or Manson and some murdering woman is the one that saved the next human race by having that abortion? Would seem we have no clue either way do we?  
Date: 2/17/2004 8:55:00 AM  From Authorid: 11240    Abortion is murder. If in using this euphemism, people find comfort and reasoning (legal as well as societal), then it is in not facing up to THE TRUTH where the argument lies. So I've murdered a spider, murdered a chicken, murdered a human. If I come out and state THE TRUTH, does that make these acts any more palatable to me? NO. It is really a sad state of life when an act is so much easier for people to accept than an admission of the truth. God Bless.  
Date: 2/17/2004 9:50:00 AM  From Authorid: 7830    Now I wont kill a single living creature. Ive had 2 unplanned pregnancies in a row because I wont get an abortion so Im not condoning abortion. But im tired of people making such a big paloocka deal about it when that weekend they go hunting or fishing. If youre gonna talk about murder of innocent life, practice it in your entire life.  
Date: 2/17/2004 9:57:00 AM  From Authorid: 54987    OK you don't believe it is right to have an abortion. SO DON'T HAVE ONE! Your profile doesn't say if you're male or female so I'm presuming you're female. So don't take contraception either because that would be stopping the fetus from reaching its potential. Freedom for all to choose!  
Date: 2/17/2004 10:04:00 AM  From Authorid: 11240    Freedom for all to choose! You forgot the last part, Koolade: Freedom for all to choose to murder via abortion! Yeah . . . o.k. You know, just be truthful about it. God Bless.  
Date: 2/17/2004 10:16:00 AM  From Authorid: 6860    This does not change my opinion of abortion. Thank you for presenting some facts; this was an interesting read.  
Date: 2/17/2004 10:24:00 AM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 62243    It makes it hard to have an intelligent discussion when one party hasn't read the entire article. I stated that life is anything that fulfills the four requirements. Thus, the zygote is, by defenition, life. The purpose in establishing that first was to provide a logical transition to the next question: "Is it HUMAN life?" In the proceeding paragraphs it is shown that, yes, if it is any kind of life, it is human life, and thus, a human life is taken during abortion. It is, however, impossible to get this point across to someone who reads only the defenition of life and assumes that I am against stepping on ants or spiders!
Date: 2/17/2004 10:30:00 AM  From Authorid: 9130    blah, blah, blah. I think we get the point.  
Date: 2/17/2004 10:31:00 AM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 62243    Koolade - the debate is "Is this a human life?" If it can be proven that it is a human life, then would you agree that abortions should be illegal? If it can be proven that it is not a human life, then what's wrong with abortions? Apparently the facts provided aren't convincing enough. BUT, does the fact that these facts aren't convincing prove that the unborn fetus is indeed, not a living human being? Logically, it does not. Does the lack of evidence prove that it IS a human being? Logically, it does not. I hope that you would agree that murder is wrong. But if we are unsure about the living or non-living state of the fetus, then is abortion right or wrong? Logically, we can't answer that, because we are unsure if it is murder or not. Thus, in my opinion, abortion should be against the law, SIMPLY because we apparently can't know if the fetus is human or not. After all, we MIGHT be killing a living human being with great potential and not a potential human being. Do you agree? *ENDER*
Date: 2/17/2004 10:33:00 AM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 62243    I have to work. I'll be back later to respond to more. *ENDER*
Date: 2/17/2004 10:53:00 AM  From Authorid: 62118    "After all, we MIGHT be killing a living human being with great potential and not a potential human being." If God did give them a purpose, wouldn't that make him as intelligent as a rock? If God clearly knows they will die, why give them a purpose for something that will never happen? That wouldn't be very smart of him.  
Date: 2/17/2004 11:00:00 AM  From Authorid: 58611    A bunch of little cells dividing inside a womb does not seem like actual human life to me. So no it is not murder in my opinion.  
Date: 2/17/2004 11:54:00 AM  From Authorid: 27046    The situation with abortion is real simple. VIABLE life. We can spend all day going on about what defines life, or where and when that life begins. All of that is mute when it comes to abortion. Extending human rights to a non-viable life, supercedes the rights that have already been granted to the viable one.  
Date: 2/17/2004 12:09:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 62243    FIRST - In the FIFTH MONTH of pregnancy the unborn becomes VIABLE. That is, she now has the ability, under our current technological knowledge, to live outside her mother's womb. Some babies have survived as early as twenty weeks. Abortions are still acceptable under current law. SECOND - what about a person in a hosptial on life support? Are they "viable?" Can they live appart from specific favorable conditions? No. Does this mean that it is not murder to walk into their room and blow their brains out? Or to pull the plugs on them?
Date: 2/17/2004 12:10:00 PM  ( From Author ) From Authorid: 62243    TYPO - "...Abortions during this time are still acceptable under current law..."
Date: 2/17/2004 12:27:00 PM  From Authorid: 27046    Actually, no! Society doesn't see pulling the plug of someone on life support as murder. Your logic here is a little flawed. It's also acceptable among a high population of people to allow a jury of 12 of your peers to decide whether you live or die. All of these may "fit" the dictionary term of murder, but they do not fit into the defination of law as murder.  
Date: 2/17/2004 12:34:00 PM  From Authorid: 2030    I think that if more people quit yapping about abortion and went after the root cause of 98% of unwanted pregnancies the whole abortion debate would evaporate. Then again that's my humble common sense opinion.  
Date: 2/17/2004 12:38:00 PM  From Authorid: 27046    Most of your states set their own limitations on abortion, which tends to be at 21 weeks. Now with current federal law THAT'S it. After 21 weeks regardless of circumstance you cannot make the decision medically or otherwise to terminate a pregnancy. ALL agencies have the right to choose whether or not they offer abortions and at what time within the legal limits they feel is a moral ground for themselves. For example, my private OBGYN paid for with my own private health insurance will perform abortions up until the 6TH week of pregnancy. Planned Parenthood, the pro-choicers best put down will only perform them up to the 11th week. It takes some searching around to some of the higher up, more expensive doctors to obtain one later. The law right now protects the fetus after it has reached maturation of viability to the closest extent that it can. You're telling me 20 weeks is viable, they give you 21, so there is an extra week for good measure.  
Date: 2/17/2004 12:42:00 PM  From Authorid: 27046    Bcar, we have spent plenty of time yapping about sex education and birth control to teenagers. Same thing happened. The high and mighty religious folk just scoff about how wrong that was too. :P  
Date: 2/17/2004 12:47:00 PM  From Authorid: 9130    I tend to agree with Bcar.  
Date: 2/17/2004 12:49:00 PM  From Authorid: 9130    This post has made me want to get an abortion.  
Date: 2/17/2004 1:21:00 PM  From Authorid: 15319    I'm a guy, but I want to get pregnent now just so I can have one *grin*  
Date: 2/17/2004 1:38:00 PM  From Authorid: 2030    Some of those "high and mighty religious folk" need to get their head out of the sand and realize their kids are going to have sex and start teaching them about precautions and remove the stigma attached to taking a common sense attitude toward sexual activity.  
Date: 2/17/2004 1:52:00 PM  From Authorid: 11240    Honestly, TDA and DizzyMe, those have to be two of the most tasteless examples of humanity I have ever seen on this site. If you don't like the post, click off. God Bless.  
Date: 2/17/2004 2:25:00 PM  From Authorid: 9130    I'm serious Deb. When I see pointless babbling about how evil a person is for having one, it makes me all the more certain that I will fight for any woman's right to have an abortion.  
Date: 2/17/2004 2:55:00 PM  From Authorid: 29387    How is this the TRUTH Deb. This is a debate, based on opinion. I'm glad to see all of these opinions and arguments, because things like abortion need to be discussed. Whatever the opinion is, don't use capital letters because you feel that will make people switch to your point of view. (By the way, Dizzy, as tasteless as that was, it sarcastically proved a melodramatic point: people can't handle the drinks that they pour themselves.)  
Date: 2/17/2004 4:07:00 PM  From Authorid: 27046    I agree with you there Bcar.  
Date: 2/17/2004 8:36:00 PM  From Authorid: 11240    This is a debate based on the meaning of the word "murder". Not the legal crime of murder, but the definition of the word. It is not a debate over the viability of life, it is an exercise in using your mind to put something in perspective rather than gloss over it by using language that makes you all feel better. BTW, I use capital letter for emphasis, Mik12. And how can the point (made sarcastically, or not?) not be seen as probably the most disingenuous REASON to get an abortion? God Bless.  
Date: 2/17/2004 9:16:00 PM  From Authorid: 16671    Oh I agree with you 100 percent. OH and by the way, my daughter is pregnant again so keep her in your prayers that she wont lose this one like she did the other one several months back. Thanks.  
Date: 2/17/2004 9:20:00 PM  From Authorid: 16671    ShaiBeauty for one thing the post is on abortions, NOT special circumstance abortions , this is about those women that would RATHER abort a baby than even TRY to use birthcontrol and there is such a small number of exteame cases where there is something wrong that you have to choose, mother or baby, compared to the millions of abortions performed daily. Now I KNOW your not trying to tell us that this is the case with ALL women. So leaving the special cirumstances behind, how can you or anyone for that matter justify a regualar abortion from a women that hasnt sense to use birth control?  
Date: 2/17/2004 9:26:00 PM  From Authorid: 16671    Sorry shai I was meaning sagi and not you. Mike, sorry you MIGHT want to try and read the FACTS, before you condemn them to someone opinion. THESE are scientific facts and you SAY you looked over these facts, but apparently your still not compassionate or knowlegable to make a clear intelligent opinion based on facts. IF you can read these facts and still support abortion KNOWING that this is a baby that can FEEL everything done to it, then I pity you.
AZ, how do you know they weren't the next generation to discover a cure, or some major thing that would impact this world? You dont.
Abortion is murder.
  
Date: 2/17/2004 9:29:00 PM  From Authorid: 16671    Dizzy, no one said it was EVIL, its just murder. So dizzy if I said eating a hamburger was murder, does this mean you would become a hamburger freak? Would you jump off a roof if we all said it was evil to do so? Would that make you more certain to stand up for jumping off roofs? I just find it funny that so many people on here dont have a shred of human compassion. Ya know for those that have NOT had babies, I can kind of understand your strange opinion on this because you have never felt LIFE in your womb and you dont know any better.  
Date: 2/17/2004 9:38:00 PM  From Authorid: 29387    THAT is ridiculous, Firstborn. First of all, capitalizing every few words for some sort of desperate attempt at an insult is degrading whatever you're saying. And YES, I did read the facts. You guys are freakin' hypocrites. So we can have our opinions, but you and your higher powers know secretly that we're wrong?? Come on! And I hate when people say: "I respect their opinion, but I pray they'll be shown the right direction." Give me a break. That's like saying: "Haha, have your fun, but we all know that you're a bunch of stupid idiots." This discussion isn't a discussion; we aren't trading debatable thoughts; all we're doing is trading either quirky insults or, those of us egoists who feel that we're right and no one else is, trading "hope that you'll be guided in the right direction." Which is what happens in every debate on this site. Sometimes, I think USM is designed to bring conflict together, not people. If you can't respect another person's opinion, and think about it, and question it, then click somewhere else. Now, Deb, yes, those are facts, and yes, I read them over, and yes, I thought about them, and yes, I questioned them, and no, I'm not going to change my opinion, or the way I live my life, and please don't pray that I'm guided in the right direction, because the right direction is a conformed, unthinking, undistinguished populace. Ridiculous.  
Date: 2/17/2004 10:09:00 PM  From Authorid: 29387    "IF you can read these facts and still support abortion KNOWING that this is a baby that can FEEL everything done to it, then I pity you." Pity me, Firstborn. "It makes it hard to have an intelligent discussion when one party hasn't read the entire article." Actually, it just makes it hard, because not all the people are conforming to your beliefs, and you're surprised that not every one sees it your way. "I just find it funny that so many people on here dont have a shred of human compassion." You think you're going to learn about a person's compassion from one reply on one post??? You don't even know what this person's been through. Again, ridiculous. "WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO THE HUMAN RACE?" From what heard, it's still going pretty strong.  
Date: 2/18/2004 12:18:00 AM  From Authorid: 16671    ya know mike, I didnt say anything about God, were talking human flesh here. Didnt say I hope you will be guided in the right direction, you BIAS against people you know are christian is showing hon. Apparently you dont respect someone opinion either or you would have never said,""debates are nothing more than well-rehearsed opinions." Sorry, but the author gave you scientific Facts. I also see you hate it when anyone myself or deb uses caps on some of our words to get the point across, get use to it. Lots of peeps on usm do it. i see that its in YOUR opinion that, "because the right direction is a conformed, unthinking, undistinguished populace. Ridiculous" So I see you have alluded to the fact that apparently what I consider the Right direction, you also say is the right direction and have made up your mind because you would rather NOT be christian because its apparently conformed, unthinking and a undistinguished populace. Sorry honey but that is a cop out. Many people that are christian are very distingished, and OH GEE think for themselves all the time and the only thing we Might be conformed about it Gods word, but contrary to popular belief not everyone that calls themself christian believes that abortion is murder. Yes hon, we think for ourselves and after given the FACTS about aboration I was smart enough to see that it is taking a life, and gee I felt that way before I met God. But I will pray for you, its my job. Your so called compassion overwhelms me. No I dont know what you have been through as well as you dont know what I've been through or anyone else here unless they tell you, but no matter what someone has been through, abortion is still murder, with or with OUT Gods imput on it, its still killing a human life. You go on more about my belief system then you do the facts that are presented to you. Does it not bother you in the slightest that the human baby inside its mothers womb can feel what is being done to it? Perhaps you don't understand that so many abortions deal with cutting off their limbs and their heads or that some are sucked out of their mothers alive, only to have a needle stuck through its brain to kill it. Maybe you don't understand or have seen one of the so called abortion victims that was sujppose to be aborted and when they cut off this little girls arm, she still was born and the nurse would NOT let the doctor kill her. She is walking around today speaking out against abortion, minus her arms of course, but other than that she is a healthy , smart human being. Just because this child has not popped out of its mothers womb and taken a breath, does in no way make it any less of a baby. Think about that if you ever become a father and look down at that child. Yes I pity you.  
Date: 2/18/2004 6:54:00 AM  From Authorid: 27046    Gee Firstborn, I believe that is exactly what I said, but thank you for repeating me.  
Date: 2/18/2004 7:39:00 AM  From Authorid: 29387    Now we're getting somewhere! Lol Firstborn, I don't think I ever mentioned Chrisianity ONCE in my tirade, let alone the subject of religion. Of course, the issue is abortion, and religion plays a part in the discussion, but am I biased against Christianity? NO. Let me say that again. NO. Again, so you get that idea out of your head. NO. I'm only biased against a religion, when. say, their priests are molesting little children, or, the're full of fundamentalists who kill to spread the word of God, or, jerks who feel that their religion is the only truth on Earth, and gives no other consideration to any other form of belief. Hmmm, that sounds like our discussion! Again, how hard is it to see that this is a debate about OPINION??? (I guess I'll start using capital words too, now...part of the regulation) Yes, those may be scientific facts, and yes, I read them, but we are basing our opinions on those facts! Do I need to remind you the definition of an opinion?? You say: abortion is murder. We say: In most situations, abortion shouldn't happen, but under the worst circumstances (which you don't even agree with), such as a physical or mental threat, or the environment into which the child will be born, or the circumstances of the birth...blah blah blah. Like someone said on another post, abortion is as gray a matter as any issue could be, and we're certainly not going to resolve it on a copied internet post bulletin board. Perhaps, though, on second thought, YOU are BIASED against those who don't think the same way you do - quite the concept, eh?? And, truthfully, this "conformed, unthinking, undistinguished populace" is only a metaphor for those people who just gulp down facts without thinking, and direct their thoughts in one direction. So, restrospectively, I PITY YOU. Lol, by the way, I'm guessing that you supported those gunmen who went on shooting rampages through abortion clinics??  
Date: 2/18/2004 7:44:00 AM  From Authorid: 27046    Let's get off the fetus feels pain trip because it's obvious quite a few people still need to get an education about this topic before they open their mouth. A woman carrying a fetus entering a clinic or a doctor's office for the procedure is given medication for pain. Now it doesn't take a rocket scientist to determine that if you aren't feeling any pain, or you have been given something to reduce pain, ANYTHING that only measures big enough to fit in the palm of your hand, is well covered under what they gave to the woman. Find a different attempt to pull at the heartstrings.  
Date: 2/18/2004 7:45:00 AM  From Authorid: 29387    P.S."Does it not bother you in the slightest that the human baby inside its mothers womb can feel what is being done to it?" Not as much as it bothers me that there's already a human being (the mother) who is definitely living, whose life and welfare depend on the birth of the baby. This woman is rounding third base, the baby hasn't even picked up a bat yet. I'm more concerned with the mother.  
Date: 2/18/2004 7:47:00 AM  From Authorid: 27046    LOL, I rather liked that baseball analogy.....  
Date: 2/18/2004 10:25:00 AM  From Authorid: 9130    Firstborn-- In response to your comment to me--apparently there are plenty of women who have "felt a baby in their womb" who agree with me. And by the way, I am a very compassionate person, just not when it comes to a bundle cells that need to be removed from the body. So what if it's destroying something? People destroy things all the time. Mik12 said everything very well.  
Date: 2/18/2004 11:29:00 AM  From Authorid: 62060    As to the detection of brain waves... Some studies have shown that brainwaves can be detected from wooden tables. Maybe personal opinions like this shouldn't be based on science but on personal feelings. If you want an abortion, have one, if you dont, dont look down on those who do. Simple.  
Date: 2/18/2004 11:42:00 AM  From Authorid: 51725    MURDER!!! keep your pants on or suffer the consequences
Date: 2/18/2004 3:49:00 PM  From Authorid: 13283    Abortion is murder no matter how you all try to paint it . Money needs to be spent on PREVENTION and NOT abortion . I wish there was an experiment we could do , where we could show that an unborn baby has a soul . When a person dies he loses a couple of grams of weight ( the soul ) . Maybe we can find a way to weigh a baby before it has been murdered ( aborted ) and after . This study will clearly show that an unborn baby has a soul and a right to life . Razzy aka  
Date: 2/18/2004 4:04:00 PM  From Authorid: 27046    Razz, and the soul has WHAT to do with the equation here?  
Date: 2/18/2004 4:07:00 PM  From Authorid: 9130    So I guess if we find out someday that humans don't have soul, we can all kill each other without guilt.  
Date: 2/18/2004 8:36:00 PM  From Authorid: 16671    Anytime AZ. MIKE you are the one that brought up prayer, your the one that said,"You guys are freakin' hypocrites. So we can have our opinions, but you and your higher powers know secretly that we're wrong?? " YOU brought up higher powers, our beliefs, ect ect. The point being you also said that I don't agree that under worst circumstances that a woman should have an abortion. That is garbage as I said, talking about regular abortions. I know and understand sometime a womans health and very life is a risk and that person has no choice but to have the baby removed. Does this mean the woman wants to have the baby removed? Most times no they dont. But then also I'm sure the percentage of women whose lives are at risk if they dont have an abortion, is in the small percentages daily, not the MILLIONS of abortions that are performed because of total ignorance, lack of humanity toward humanity and lack of compassion or feelings. No I dont support the gun men, that too is ignorance gone to seed. You know nothing about me, dont assume things you dont know. But the facts of abortion are clear, how far the baby have come along, what parts work and when they work, when they can feel, ect ect. Some babies have been born at six months along and lived, yet there are women and doctors out there that abort babies at this same stage. With BRAINS that are working and nerves that are feeling. Yet you go along with that. Yep the heart of compassion and human caring. AZ:: LET get off this small , tiny minority that actually have a legit reason for having an abortion. That point has been done to death. What about the millions of mothers that abort the baby that have NO CLEAR excuse.  
Date: 2/18/2004 8:39:00 PM  From Authorid: 16671    Dizzy, I've heard mass murders say the same thing, " So what if its destroying something" good response, does this mean I should look for you in the next ten most wanted list?  
Date: 2/18/2004 8:41:00 PM  From Authorid: 16671    Fire storm? I don't look down on them. I know some that have had the abortion to later find out the whole facts involving the baby and they feel really bad about it. Can they change it? No. but they can not do it again. I dont look down on them. Until I learned the facts I use to think the same way, that it wasnt a living thing until many months into packing it. I was wrong. I admitted it. Perhaps some of the people here, might wake up and see the facts also.  
Date: 2/18/2004 8:43:00 PM  From Authorid: 16671    Every person when concieved is born with a soul, spirit as well as their flesh. You dont just get your soul and spirit the second ya pop from the womb, they are there at the second of conception.  
Date: 2/18/2004 9:23:00 PM  From Authorid: 29387    I have more compassion for the mother who may die, then a baby who may not be born. As to those who have abortions for the sake of it, and without good reasons, I too disagree with it. But we should be worried about our own problems, not theirs. I already told you I read the facts. Whoopee. As much as you attempt to change opinions, you just can't...but I do congratulate you because it was a very fervored, albeit, futile, attempt. By the way, since you've listed very scientific parephenalia, what bodily substance, when a baby is concieved, contains the soul?? The soul is a whole 'nother conversation. And when you say something has been beaten to death, this debate sure has!  
Date: 2/18/2004 10:00:00 PM  From Authorid: 62118    Interesting, abortion must be wrong because the baby has a soul. Can anyone accurately describe what a soul is without mere assumptions? Or are you taught it must exist because your belief tells you it must? What does souls have to do with facts? Currently people have different opinons on what the soul is, so far no one can give an accurate discription.  
Date: 2/19/2004 5:50:00 AM  From Authorid: 54987    Actually I feel it's hard to believe that some women treat abortion as a form of birth control. I mean...heck! What woman would go through what would potentially be an abortion every 2 months. And what doctor would do such a thing. And the expense? This sounds like one of those myths put about by extreme right wing fundamentalist religious groups.  
Date: 2/19/2004 7:44:00 AM  From Authorid: 27046    Firstborn I don't recall being on about a small minority that actually have a reason. I don't see anywhere that I have even stated ANYTHING that has to do with a legit reason for a woman to have an abortion. As far as I am concerned (and this is nothing new) it's none of mine or anyone else's business why a woman is obtaining an abortion. However, as usual I do see once again that you have no idea what you are talking about.  
Date: 2/19/2004 10:33:00 AM  From Authorid: 59876    i know two women that use it as birth control  
Date: 2/19/2004 2:41:00 PM  From Authorid: 16671    I"m not going to get into the discussion on soul with any of you, it would do no good, can lead a horse to water but ya cant make them drink. So its ok, have your opinions , wrong as they are and have a nice day.  
Date: 2/19/2004 2:58:00 PM  From Authorid: 29387    LMAO - that's the quote of the day! "As wrong as they are." Sigh...  
Date: 2/19/2004 5:25:00 PM  From Authorid: 54987    It isn't murder. It can only be murder once a baby is born and is independent of the mother as a separate human being. The body that is forming inside the mother is the vehicle, i.e. body of the incoming spirit which actually enters the body at the moment of birth. It has been documented that at the moment of birth there is a drop in temperature and that is due to the entry of the spirit into the body. Two spirits cannot function through one body. That is what I am told.  
Date: 2/20/2004 1:00:00 AM  From Authorid: 62118    Lol. Firstborns opinion must be fact, I'm glad I don't live in her world.  
Date: 2/20/2004 8:05:00 PM  From Authorid: 16671    Oh honey you should be so lucky to live in my world. Koolade, if its not murder tell that to the judge and jury, the courts that are charging that guy that killed his wife and unborn baby with TWO accounts of murder. So really they need to make up their minds, either its murder or its not. My mind however is made up, its murder.  
Date: 2/20/2004 8:06:00 PM  From Authorid: 16671    OH and mike, maybe you need to JUMP out of those movies once in a while and join the real world.  
Date: 2/21/2004 7:32:00 AM  From Authorid: 19220    Even though I wouldn't have an abortion unless it was a medical reason, I do think the choice should be there. I don't think it should be used as birth control. I haven't walked in the shoes of women who have had abortions so I don't know what they were going through or what they will go through for the rest of their lives but I am not God so I don't judge anyone. As for the Laci and Connor case, they are going after the husband for 2 counts of murder because Connor could have survived if he were to have been born at the time. How many other pregnant women have been murdered and the murderer was only held accountable for one murder? Many. Why? Because the unborn child could not have survived without the mother.  
Date: 2/21/2004 11:54:00 AM  From Authorid: 62060    Firstborn - that comment wasn't personally directed at you, more of a general comment. But some people do look down on others for having an abortion - saying abortion is murder is the same as calling the person who has it done a murderer. So what, should we lock up half the female population?  
Date: 2/22/2004 8:10:00 AM  From Authorid: 11240    This post is about the meaning of the words, people, not about CHARGING ANYONE WITH MURDER. Think: To abort means to end. The abortion doctor is performing an end to A PREGNANCY. The woman is INTENDING to end the life brought on by BEING PREGNANT. When a woman is PREGNANT that means she is WITH CHILD. The point I am trying to make is in ADMITTING to yourself and to GOD what it is you have done. I have murdered. I have stated it above. It wasn't through an abortion doctor, I don't need to put my dirty deeds on anybody else. I intended to end a life inside me and I knew how to do it. If I never admitted to that, then it is MY SOUL and MY SPIRIT that suffers, as I would be denying the TRUTH. How can any woman who has taken life from her body have any kind of reconciliation with themselves and God if they don't admit the TRUTH? It is funny that RT'd pointed this out: God could make any one of these aborted babies live if that is His Intent. But only by my admitting to God that I shouldn't and didn't have to act on my own, that He would have been the One acting to not have this life be born, can I come to any reconciliation of my act with regard to the state of my soul and spirit. Go ahead and keep abortions legal. There are more instances than abortion of non-chargeable murder. But don't keep leading people on that what is happening is not the INTENTIONAL TAKING OF A LIFE. Because that just simply isn't THE TRUTH. God Bless.  
Date: 2/22/2004 12:39:00 PM  From Authorid: 29387    Lol Firstborn - can't think of anything to say, so you attack what I like to do for fun??? I do live in the REAL world, where people actually have CHOICES. Don't eradicate your own argument. You were making yourself look stupid. Correction: You are making yourself look stupid. Please.Leave it alone, and believe that there are other people in this world with different beliefs than you.  
Date: 2/22/2004 1:11:00 PM  From Authorid: 29387    There isn't a pretty way to paint it Deb, but yes, to abort is to end something. Whether that we are willing to do so is up to each individual and his or her personal reasons. Some may be justified. Some may not. THAT is the TRUTH.  
Date: 2/22/2004 7:41:00 PM  From Authorid: 11240    Hey, the decision is to murder, or not, no matter how you want to word it. I can agree with your statement of truth (i.e., that the decision is personal), why is it so hard for you to agree with what I state is the truth? God Bless.  
Date: 2/22/2004 10:12:00 PM  From Authorid: 29387    Because phrasing it as such would indicate a) that it's illegal, and b), that the person who goes through with it should feel guilty about it. Those who make the decision to get an abortion for the right reasons shouldn't be obliged to feel guilty and feel like they've committed a crime.  
Date: 2/22/2004 11:35:00 PM  From Authorid: 16671    I guess then if someone shoots someone on the street, they shouldnt be charged with murder either or feel guilty about it. God says, thou shall not KILL. A baby is a living organisim living within a womans body, its alive, not something DEAD , No mike your the only one looking stupid here. But hon you think what you will,we will just call it a day.  
Date: 2/23/2004 6:36:00 AM  From Authorid: 11240    Aah, so you finally admit here that you cannot, in your mind, separate the meaning of the word murder (THE INTENTIONAL TAKING OF AN OTHER'S LIFE) with the crime of murder. And to call any "legal" murders (capital punishment, mercy killings, wartime casualties, abortion) murder is an exercise of your mind so as not to put any "guilt" or attach any "illegiality" to a person who commits any of these acts? ROTFLMAO. Don't I know how that mind game works!!! Let's move beyond the TRUTH here, to the REALITY. If your mind continually has to use euphamisms to make you THINK that you didn't do something wrong, when in your heart you FEEL really cruddy about it, then at some point in your life, there is going to be a tremendous clash between your mind (spirit) and your heart (soul). That is, the guilt is going to be there REGARDLESS of what you've called your act. In calling it by it's truthful definition, MURDER, the perspective switches from a) How do I keep rationalizing/justifying my act; to b) Please God forgive me, for I have sinned big time. God BLess.  
Date: 2/23/2004 7:18:00 AM  From Authorid: 29387    Sigh. You people never give up, do you? You just can't let someone make a choice for themselves, let alone have an opinion for themselves. That's a disgrace.  
Date: 2/23/2004 7:22:00 AM  From Authorid: 29387    That's it, I'm off this stupid site.  
Date: 2/23/2004 1:07:00 PM  From Authorid: 13283    The truth hurts . Doesn't it ? I am happy your mother did not abort any of you (Diz , Az and so on ) . Isnt it funny that people who are for abortion (murder ) are all alive ? Eventually we will all get an answer to this question (when we meeet our Creator ) . Razzy aka  
Date: 2/23/2004 9:20:00 PM  From Authorid: 16671    MIKE in RESPONSE TO YOUR PERSONAL MESSAGE TO ME:::Oh give it a rest, there is a differnce between getting a abortion because of medical reason and life saving proceedures, and having them constantly as a means to birth control. Honey, I've had my four kids, I have four grandkids and two on the way , so I'm not seeing the need for a abortion in the near future. PLUS the fact that i've only been christian for fifteen years, out of FIFTY years, so no hon, these opinions of mine dont stem from what God says or what God doesnt say, my opinions stem from the FACTS of a living human being and their rights as a living organism . Like I said, you have your opinion, I have mine, if you and your wife want to go around killing babies so be it, you will be judged in the end. RAther you believe that or ya dont, doesnt make a flip to me. So run along on your merry way. You people that have grown up on " no absolutes are the ones that get to me" I'm thinking your generation was born with out hearts. Have a good one and please, I think this converstaion is finished so dont message me again about this subject, if you have antoher one in mind, fine, I'm game. But I think this one is worn out.  
Date: 2/24/2004 6:21:00 AM  From Authorid: 29387    Fine Firstborn, you win. (But don't tell me people can't have different opinions when you're shoving yours down my throat). Oh, and HONEY, when my generation grows up, I'm gonna make sure that ANY KIND of abortion is made legal, just to see the look on your face. And I'm kind of surprised that you're not even sticking up for your own sex, let alone your own race. Don't message me back.  
Date: 2/24/2004 6:42:00 AM  From Authorid: 50435    I'm goin' to get myself an abortion right now.  
Date: 2/24/2004 8:30:00 AM  From Authorid: 9130    Raz, that was a very idiotic comment. MY mother actually wanted to abort me. My father talked her out of it. So she gave up custody rights and I grew up with my dad. I learned all of this when I was an adult. If she had her way, I WOULDN'T be here. But I am STILL PRO-CHOICE knowing all of that. Because I do feel it is a personal choice.  
Date: 2/24/2004 11:24:00 AM  From Authorid: 16671    AS I said mike, I'm sticking up for my gender, as there is a whole lot of babie girls waiting to be born. You will reap what you sow. Thats not just Gods law, but universal law. So go ahead and try and make any kind of abortion legal. Maybe once you join the real world, that is so unlike all the movies you watch, you will finally get the jist of it all. Have a good day mike.  
Date: 2/24/2004 2:56:00 PM  From Authorid: 29387    ....and maybe you should stop writing crappy books.
  
Date: 2/24/2004 3:21:00 PM  From Authorid: 29387    So much for the admins saying personal attacks can't be allowed in debates LMAO.  
Date: 2/25/2004 2:56:00 PM  From Authorid: 32806    Have to keep reminding people about the legitimate cases for abortion Firstborn. It is ALWAYS relevant in ANY debate about abortion. Because it IS a reason to abort, you wish to ignore it and leave it out of the argument. Unfortunately for you it will never be left out of the equation.  
Date: 2/25/2004 5:46:00 PM  From Authorid: 11240    The argument here is whether abortion is murder or not. There are "justified" murders no matter what genre they belong to. Justified or not, you can't argue away the fact that it is still the INTENTIONAL TAKING OF AN OTHER'S LIFE. God Bless.  
Date: 2/28/2004 4:34:00 PM  From Authorid: 34487    The reality of what abortion is, is too terrible for many to deal with and that's why our society continually justifies it. I believe abortion is murder but I cannot and will not, judge a woman that makes the mistake of having one. Judgment is left for God since no person can know the specific circumstances of each woman or why she chose this option. I do judge the ACT of abortion but not the woman that chooses to have one.  
Date: 2/29/2004 3:59:00 PM  From Authorid: 56840    Hmm.. I get so confused with these abortion posts.. I do believe abortion is murder. Supporting that statement would get me into a big agruement, of course, this being a debate post. No, I have never had a baby or an abortion, so I do not know what it feels like. I can see why a woman would want to get rid of a baby if she got raped and ended up pregnant, but the baby is not to blame. I read the book "The Atonement Child" (I think that's the title), and that is where most of my knowledge of abortion comes from. Sometimes those who are supporters of abortion have already tried the avenue of prevention first, and find that it is too hard of a thing to get across to this society we live in.. I am wondering if there is a such thing as justified murder. If there is, than can a mother justify with her reasons for having an abortion? Good post..  
Date: 3/1/2004 8:39:00 AM  From Authorid: 11240    Lady Blaze, as far as human's legality, yes. By God's Law, well, that is the point of all my comments. God Bless.  

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