Date: 10/21/2003 8:19:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
No, it's not justice for all and it does no good to have the motto's put there anyway. When In God We Trust was added society went downhill, when Under God was added society still went downhill. Christians try to say taking prayer and God out of school is why society went downhill, when God was added society still continued to decline. Who has the lower rate of divorce between Christians and Atheists, the Atheists. How can it be that the people who Christians claim to be somehow less moral and ruining society have a lower divorce rate and place more importance on family than the Christians who create a covenant for life under God. Christians need to quit trying to have the government legislate their religion for them and quit placing their problems on other people and start fixing their religion. Why would any nonbeliever want to be told that they should be forced to have God shoved down their throats to become more moral, when everywhere they turn there's some scandal in a Christian Church. Priest molesting boys and the Church covering it up, Ministers giving sermons and then having mistresses on the side. Sick televangelists conning people out of money while teaching people to hate, the high divorce rate among believers. Most Christians like to spout the rhetoric at those that don't believe because they somehow think they have the higher moral ground, they preach at others about how messed up and "sinful" they are instead of looking at themselves and actually fixing where the problem starts.  |
Date: 10/21/2003 9:21:00 PM
From Authorid: 50434
who really cares, its been there so long why care now. doing someting constructive than waste time on something so petty.  |
Date: 10/21/2003 9:59:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 3125
Thanx Base, but I do disagree with your statement that 'society went downhill' when God was added to anything. Regardless, I haven't checked a poll to see who has the lower divorce rate nor who has less morals. I am not saying that one group is better or worse than another. I am not here to compare the believers and non believers. I do know that we are all human beings, all with emotions and desires. I do wish we could all come together and realize that we are all people and we are all different and we all have that right. We should learn to have respect for each other. Also, When speaking of a particular group of people, I hate to hear such statements as "Christians need to quit" this or that. Wouldn't it be more correct to say "Some Christians"? I do believe this is what you mean, but not all know what you mean unless you state otherwise.
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Date: 10/21/2003 10:03:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 3125
Thanx Star Bright, But what if someone would have used your same reasoning when most women were not permitted to hold a job outside of the home, or a wife had to be obedient to her husband as if she was a child? What about when women had no voting rights? What if your reasoning was used when the blackman was thought of as nothing more than a slave? Are we to ignore an obvious injustice because it has been tolerated for a long period of time? How do we know that these things hasn't bothered others for a long time but they feared severe ridicule from others and kept quiet? |
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Date: 10/21/2003 10:21:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
Since the mottos have been added has society declined? I didn't say it caused it to decline but it didn't stop it. The problems can't be solved by just having God's name added to things. Yes, I should have said some Christians and not just generalized and I agree everyone should just be seen as equal. |
Date: 10/21/2003 10:44:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 3125
I'm sorry Base, I misunderstood what you meant there.  I agree that problems cannot be solved by simply adding God's name. It seems to me that many think so though. If this is suppose to me a Christian nation, then why is there so much corruption in the very ones who we rely on to set examples for us? I believe that has to do with many simply using the name of God for purposes other than what is intended. Many seem to use God's name for cover ups, or to hide behind while they do such terrible things. Some seem to take pride in saying I am a Christian but they really don't have much of an idea as to what God says about the responsibilities of a Christian. |
Date: 10/22/2003 12:12:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
Barb, just found this post, but going to bed now, will respond in the morning.  |
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Date: 10/22/2003 8:02:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
We as part of this nation have the same rights as unbelievers and that is freedom of speech and expression.Society didn't start to go down hill until God was taken out of our nation and that is what so many are trying to do, take anything that pertains to God out of the nation, be complacent about Him and His word. Its not Justice for all, its seems to be justice for the unbeliever, and hey ya'll christians keep in the corner and shut up. I don't think so. |
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Date: 10/22/2003 12:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
Why do you feel that not allowing mass production of the word God on government property is denying you your freedom of speech? Why do you equate not showing a preference to you losing your rights? |
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Date: 10/22/2003 2:17:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 3125
Thanx Deb, I agree that WE as part of this nation have the same rights as unbelievers and that is freedom of speech and expression. But..Do WE have more rights than some other people of this nation? Is there a US Treasury available for the non believers to make their own money on which it states "In Evolution We trust, etc? Would it make a difference to us who believe in God if we would be forced to accept this motto on our currency?.. History shows us that this nation was established by those who had a strong God belief, but this nation has grown and has many citizens who do not share the beliefs of our forefathers. Don't they really have the right to chose the path they will follow? Do we have the right to say "NO, We the believers in God refuse to share this nation with you. We will continue to proclaim what we believe in our pledge and on our money. You do not have the same rights we have??" This is suppose to be the land of the free where all, regardless of race, gender, or belief can come and be treated fairly, as an equal, and to have the same rights as anyone else. We cannot ignore the fact that this nation, this land of the free, holds many who do not believe in God. Are we to ignore their rights? Are we to force them to spend the money on which states our belief in God? |
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Date: 10/22/2003 2:22:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 3125
Another thing, Can non believers stop believers from proclaiming their belief in God? No! Can believers stop those who proclaim a belief in evolution? No! Do we each have the right to proclaim our beliefs? Yes! There is a difference in the freedom to proclaim one's beliefs than in stepping on some people's rights in order to proclaim one's beliefs. How can a non believer express their loyalty to our/their government if it states "One nation under God"? This nation is about the people, the citizens and their rights..It is not about who has what religious beliefs or who has no religious beliefs. We must admit that we who believe in God are promoting our God belief in this land of the free by including "In God WE trust" and "One nation under God" on our money and in our pledge of loyalty to our nation, etc. |
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Date: 10/22/2003 9:43:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Barb no one has more right than the other person. I do agree with you, as I said the only thing I have against them taking that off our money, is that its just one more thing this nation is doing to get rid of God once and for all. Father please forgive them for they know not what they do. |
Date: 10/22/2003 10:46:00 PM
From Authorid: 54987
Well said Rosure. I agree with all you said except for the last paragraph LOL. Well you didn't expect me to agree with everything did you? LOL. I don't agree that a God would choose a particular religion over another. I think a God would treat all people as equal. But I am very impressed with what you said. As far as others who say believers have the same rights as non-beleivers. That goes without saying. However, you won't hear athiests demanding that we should have 'under no God' in the pledge or 'in no God we trust'on our money. No one is taking God away from anyone. How could they? If you are truly a believer, then God is in your heart and that is where your God resides. Good post Rusure.  |
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Date: 10/23/2003 12:08:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
Koolade your right God belongs in our hearts, we that know him will never lose him. but as I said to someone else, basically IF Gods name is no where, perhaps he will be harder for those to find him. |
Date: 10/23/2003 5:41:00 AM
From Authorid: 36967
A federal Judge has ruled, not too long ago, that "In God We Trust" as a Moto is NOT Religion. This Judge that ruled that claims to be an Athiest. Which I take him at his word. Which I think that is interesting.
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Date: 10/23/2003 7:19:00 AM
From Authorid: 54987
Dkptrs .. yes that is interesting, if true. I think maybe we should have the words, 'In the World Bank We Trust.' LOL. |
Date: 10/23/2003 7:28:00 AM
From Authorid: 13974
Firstborn, it is not equal, and you know it. To remove the name "God" from things it had no business on in the first place is not being unfair, or unjust to anyone. You know as well as I do that people think it is ok to add "God" to things like money, but if someone of a faith you think to be evil tried to you would throw a fit. This isn't just about Christians and Atheists. This is about Christians having to live by the same standards as the rest of us. Trust me, if a voodoo practitioner wanted to insert their beliefs into our government in the way that Christianity has, you would NEVER stand up for them, and say that they should be allowed to as part of their freedom of religious expression, and everyone here knows it. You hold your own faith as having a more privileged status in America (which it usually does.) People aren't trying to take God out of America, they are trying to bring Christians down to the same point, and hold them to the same standards as the rest of us. Wiccans don't have the right to put their beliefs on the money, why should you? Christians in this country get more privilege to do as they please for their faith, while expelling kids of other faiths from school, creating legislation based on nothing more than their Dogma, etc. It isn't about getting God out of America, but holding you to the same standards that we are held to. "but as I said to someone else, basically IF Gods name is no where, perhaps he will be harder for those to find him." That statement isn't about equal rights, and freedom, it is about advancing your faith's cause, which is not the governments responsibility, or right to do so.  |
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Date: 10/23/2003 7:57:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
What ever you think I mean phy as I'm in no mood to argue today. |
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Date: 10/23/2003 8:15:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 3125
Deb, Do you really believe that a nation can get rid of God? Isn't God stronger than any nation or any man? I could also ask that God forgive mankind for what they do because they know not what they do. Many do not seem to realize what a great mockery and what a big lie it is to put the words "In God We trust" onto our money. God is not a God to a nation nor to a people who are full of corruption. That would be like the Pharisees claiming to be of God all the while doing such unholy things. God says "Why call me Lord and do not the things I say?" It is so very hypocritical and full of mockery unto God to write the word 'God' upon anything that is full of corruption. To claim this nation is doing the will of God is a lie. God is not pleased with anyone who would claim to be of Him but in reality they trust in themselves and that money to gain power and wealth. |
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Date: 10/23/2003 8:18:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 3125
Deb, Do our nations leaders and those we should be able to look up to really "Trust in God"? Did President Bush trust in God to lead him when he declared war upon Iraq or did he trust in himself and his own personal desires? Do the TV evangelists really trust in God to lead them or do they trust themselves and that almighty dollar with the words "In God we trust" written on them? Deb, I could go on and on and show examples for what I am saying, but I do believe you get what I am saying. Regardless, How can anyone take God from us? The way I see this is "Instead of fighting for a lie, why not open that Book and study the WORD of God and Do the will of God, not fight to protect the word 'God' written on our nations documents, etc.?" God would be more pleased if His followers would actually DO His will, instead of fighting to keep the word 'God' on a piece of valuable paper. If people would insist that we get rid of God's Word, then we would have the right to stand up and loudly object and many would. It is not the word 'God' written on documents, etc, that teaches us His will, it is His Word and our examples which teaches the Word of God. |
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Date: 10/23/2003 8:34:00 AM
From Authorid: 13974
Well said Rususre. |
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Date: 10/23/2003 8:35:00 AM
From Authorid: 13974
WHEW! TYPING! Let's try that again.... Well said Rusure! |
Date: 10/23/2003 8:39:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 3125
Derek, How would it be not of religion if we would say "In God We Trust? If we proclaim a trust in God any where or any place we are declaring a belief in God. Is not God of religion? God says in His Word in Jas 1 6-27, If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. Is what a federal Judge says more true than what God says? |
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Date: 10/23/2003 8:51:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 3125
Deb, People can open the Word of God which is in all parts of the world and find the word "God" written many, many times. It is up to the people to seek God, not up to any nation to step on anyone's rights to promote the word 'God' which is written on documents and money which all citizens must use. |
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Date: 10/23/2003 9:09:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 3125
Phydeux, As you said "It isn't about getting God out of America"..This is about the undeniable rights of ALL the citizens of this nation. We ALL should have the same rights, the same freedom to express ourselves. One group should not be given more rights than any other group, no matter who we are. If this be permitted, then that is where I see a wrong that needs to be corrected. |
Date: 10/23/2003 12:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
This is a fantastic post Rusure and I didn't get the chance to tell you how wonderful our talk about this and other situations relating to God and Christianity was! It doesn't matter what the religion itself is, it doesn't belong in places that are created for ALL people. Which means anything and everything that represents us as a nation of people should not come with a sign proclaiming a majority in any religious belief, regardless of it's truth or not. Great Post!  |
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Date: 10/23/2003 8:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
No barb I don't. As I've said before Its the principal of the thing. Lots of things that are around for ALL people shouldnt be around as I as well as many find it offensive, but its still around. I think think that is justice for all. I think some just want justice for them. God will be God rather its on the money or not. As the day will come when we wont even be allowed bibles as it will be against the Beast, but we will still have God and Nothing or no one can stop that. Let them take what they want even tho I dont think its justice for all, BUT God will prevail. |
Date: 10/23/2003 8:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
*out flat on the ground* Barb, this post is simply superior. 'Nuff said........  |
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Date: 10/24/2003 7:31:00 AM
From Authorid: 13974
FB, but how is it justice for all? How is making our government NON-religious (as it was intended) somehow against you? Wouldn't that be making it an equal playing field between you and all the other citizens of this nation? How is it fair that Christianity gets an overwhelming representation in or political system, and federal government (I am not talking about elected officials, as they are voted in by majority, but rather policies) how is that justice? How can you say that you are only asking to exercise your freedom of religious expression that people are trying to take it away from you, and then hold a double standard by not wanting those same freedoms for ALL others? How is that justice? How is it justice for you to use something like the money to further the goals of your religion while others are having their voices silenced? What makes your religion better than anyone else’s? You keep talking about this issue as if it was only about Christians and atheists, but it isn't. It involves every person in this country. People of all different faiths, that believe a wide range of things, and yet only your faith seems to have the right to be represented by the government, the rest of us have to live by the rules of the separation of church and state. People talk about others trying to remove God from our country because a school cannot sanction their prayer (and then say they CANNOT pray), or because there are those who want to say the pledge without pledging their allegiance to a God they don't believe in. They say they are having their rights taken away because they have been inconvenienced in the minutest manner. Still, who are the ones expelling children from school for wearing symbols of their faith that Christians see as evil? Who are the ones getting slammed into lockers for being "witches." Who are the ones that are ostracized because atheist has become a derogatory term? Who has had their books banned from libraries on a regular basis? Whose religious practices were almost banned from military instillations? Who were banned from attending their senior prom because of the kind of people that they are? Who has to practice their religion in secret for fear of physical harm? Who has to hide their sexuality for the same reasons? The list goes on and on, and then Christians want to cry because they are losing their special privileges that the rest of us were never entitled to. But who are they ones perpetuating the above-mentioned actions? Who is the constant opposition to all of these people? If you want to talk about rights, we can talk about rights. |
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Date: 10/24/2003 7:59:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 3125
Deb, I am not coming from my own firm belief that I believe that God is the Creator of this universe and it is my desire that all would accept God as the Creator of this universe. No one can take this belief from me. Deb, I am coming from what is right and what is just. Can't we separate the two beliefs? Should those who believe in God have more opportunies to declare their belief in God than those who do not? Deb, Why can't some see that to have "In God WE( ALL citizens) Trust" is stepping on the rights of those who do not believe? Deb, This nation may have be built on the God belief, but look around us..There are many citizens that do not believe. To deny the non believers and equal opportunity to express their beliefs on our money or in our pledge of allegiance is not just/fair. That's like saying.."Many of our forefathers believed in God and I believe in God, therefore you must believe or you are not going to be thought of as a real citizen of this nation." Deb, Where is the fairness in this? I believe this nation should show neutrality on any document, on our money, or in the pledge of loyalty, or in any declaration or whatever, so that 'ALL' can become 'WE' the people. Deb, Maybe some who do not believe in God is taking this as a game of "I am going to win..Ha Ha" but Deb, I know some who simply see the injustice in this and all they want is to be included in our pledge of loyalty, in the "WE the people" and in in this nations "WE" believe in liberty and justice for ALL". We who believe will not stop teaching the Word of God. We who believe would object very loudly to the injustice of attempts to take away God's Word. We who believe would not sit down and allow this to happen..But Deb, Should non believers sit back and not be included in the WE the people of this nation? |
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Date: 10/24/2003 8:01:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 3125
Thanx LSG Nice to have you to stop by. |
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Date: 10/24/2003 8:41:00 AM
From Authorid: 13974
Thank you Rusure. You have said it all. I just wanted to add to my last comment that when I speak of Christian acts against others, this is not a blanket I lay across Christianity as a whole. I feel many Christian organizations are good, and many are oppressive. It is just like the rest of the world, but I still donate to many Christian based funds, including a couple of local churches in my area. I believe faith can be a great thing. It helped me through the times I felt I needed it. Yet when it is imposed on others, it can be a terrible sword that can divide us as a nation. |
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Date: 10/24/2003 9:13:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 3125
Thanx Phydeux..Jesus said to His apostles "Go teach my word"..Jesus gave each individual a choice by saying "Come, Whosoever will". He did not claim an entire unrighteous nation. Jesus didn't say, "Go force my word on all". To claim "In God WE trust" is a lie and it is also forcing ALL citizens to acknowledge a single group of citizens belief in God. I do not feel that I am being disloyal to God by seeing an injustice and stating it as an injustice. Am I to close my eyes to an injustice because of my belief in God? I don't think so. |
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Date: 10/24/2003 1:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Phydeux..Very well said and I agree. Rusure, I now see your point. I agree, but ya know it takes lots to get through to this thick skull of mine. Hugs. |
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Date: 10/24/2003 2:13:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 3125
Deb, Love ya girl! You are about as hard headed as one of my sisters. |
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Date: 10/25/2003 11:52:00 AM
From Authorid: 13974
Ah, common ground, feels nice here... |
Date: 4/3/2005 11:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
I remember bookmarking this EXCELLENT post by Rusure. One of the greatest posts on USM. If you're around, Barb, maybe you'd do a repost?  |
