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Date: 10/20/2003 9:31:00 AM
From Authorid: 12835
I think taking the "H" out of schools is even worse....  |
Date: 10/20/2003 9:33:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13974
Yeah yeah, I was in a hurry... :P  |
Date: 10/20/2003 9:40:00 AM
From Authorid: 943
I think there are many reasons why we have gone down hill. This probably didn't help though. The one that bothers me the most is, we can't discilpline our kids. I don't mean beat them, but they appear to have more rights than we do. That...is wrong.  |
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Date: 10/20/2003 9:51:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13974
Can't discipline? What? More rights than we do? In what way? Explanation please... |
Date: 10/20/2003 9:51:00 AM
From Authorid: 53961
A friend of mine once said something I think quite profound and it has stayed with me ever since. In reference to people who argue against religion, "They must have an ounce of faith what we believe is true or why not just leave us alone." Those who believe are not harming those who don't.  |
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Date: 10/20/2003 10:02:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13974
Well thank you wildflower, that was incredibly.... well... um.... off topic. Anyway, as far as your friends "profound" statement, I feel it is quite flawed in the sense that the believers HAVE been and CONTINUE to try an force their beliefs on others be it through school prayer, "under God" in the pledge, forcing children to remove pentacles on school campuses and other symbols of their non Christian faith, use their positions to erect monuments that condemn other faiths on government property, expel children of other faiths, try and oppresses the educations of other's children, oh, well, you get the idea. Now, back to the debate. |
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Date: 10/20/2003 10:06:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13974
And "leave us alone." Odd, leave us alone, when I am only writing about those who would impose their faith on others. This is not an attack, what I am asking for is those who make these wholly absurd comments to back them up with something. People have the right to say whatever they like, but not to be immune to people questioning what comes out of their mouth. |
Date: 10/20/2003 10:10:00 AM
From Authorid: 52155
I have a question for you, Phydeux- Do you think schools are any better for our kids since 1962 and the removal of prayer?  |
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Date: 10/20/2003 10:12:00 AM
From Authorid: 52155
Some teachings of God- Do not murder, do not steal, honor your parents, honor those in authority over you... hmmm, these things sure seem to be lacking in schools nowadays.... |
Date: 10/20/2003 10:17:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
Eddo maybe you want to tell that to christian churches of the middle ages, they HAD Gods rules and made people christian but yet still murdered.  |
Date: 10/20/2003 10:21:00 AM
From Authorid: 1225
The decline of America's youth is the result (at least in the most part) of the Vietnamwar and the "counterculture" it created. You had an entire generation using drugs and breaking away from the establishment. Now those people have kids and are raising them to be more independant and disdainful of "the man". Christianity, and most other religions, is authoritarian, which goes against democracy. That is why there has to be separation between the church and the government in a democracy, because they are mutually repugnant.  |
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Date: 10/20/2003 10:23:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13974
Do I think they are better off? In what sense? in the sense that you can still continue your education even if you get pregnant? In the way that a kid can feel more safe regardless of sexual orientation in the locker room? Maybe you are talking about how we used to sweep drug abuse under the rug, so nobody would know our communities dirty little secrets, and now it is out in the open so we can at least attempt to stop it. Or maybe in the sense that a kid no longer has so many reasons to be ostracized from the school's community based on their religion if it isn't Christian in nature. Maybe I misunderstood the question. And like I said before (in a different debate) Eddo, those values are still taught in schools and at home regardless of if they are a Christian or not. Now where is the DIRECT coloration between prayer being removed from schools, and the current state? Where is the proof that schools were on a steady unwavering trend that went downhill after the removal of prayer? Where is the slightest shred of evidence that not only is this not a coincidence, but that this "downward" trend was not in effect before 1962? |
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Date: 10/20/2003 10:42:00 AM
From Authorid: 1225
The decline of America's youth is the result (at least in the most part) of the Vietnamwar and the "counterculture" it created. You had an entire generation using drugs and breaking away from the establishment. Now those people have kids and are raising them to be more independant and disdainful of "the man". Christianity, and most other religions, is authoritarian, which goes against democracy. That is why there has to be separation between the church and the government in a democracy, because they are mutually repugnant. |
Date: 10/20/2003 10:42:00 AM
From Authorid: 33286
as long as there are tests in school there will be prayer...  |
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Date: 10/20/2003 10:44:00 AM
From Authorid: 52155
You are right Phydeux, schools today are better. They think a teacher is treating them unfair? Cuss 'em out! or better yet, just pack dad's .357 and kill the schmuck. That bully is still stealing your lunch money? Shoot 12 of your classmates. Pre-1960's school problems were chewing gum in class, wearing a hat, or passing notes. After removal of prayer and Biblical teachings- school problems are now drug use, murder, suicide, rape, babies having babies, lack of respect for anyone, etc. Better off? I don't think so. |
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Date: 10/20/2003 10:50:00 AM
From Authorid: 53961
"off topic"? I think not. You are the one who is talking of "the removal of God from the public school system". He has been an important part of the teaching of children long before you or I were ever born. Granted, many have taught of salvation through Him in various unethical ways. I won't go into that because I am not out to slander other religions and their beliefs. It is society who has chose to "rip apart" the sanctity of His Holy name and purpose. A child or an adult has an option to participate in prayer. No one is or should be forced to particiapte. I am not saying this doesn't happen in some rhelms. Once again, back to "unethical ways". I can only tell you that from personal experieces that my daughter going to early morning seminary for her four years in high school before school has helped her to become a better person and more intune to who she is and her purpose in this life. Did it make her perfect? No. But, she does have a better grasp on life and situations that may arise due to the fact that she has been taught and knows that she is indeed a Child of God. She belongs. She is accepted, no matter her faults. Many children, whom I personally know, do not know the answers to their existance and purpose here on the earth. Thus, walking around and searching for an identity that can often lead to a lifestyle of behavior that can and will become harmful to the body, mind and spirit. Many of these kids don't know there is a "better way" because they have never learned so from their parents who also have never learned. You may not believe as I do or accept what I say, but there is no way that you can convince me that taking, what can be, a spiritual moment out of a student's everyday life will not have a negative impact on them eventually. When children are told "no", they want to know "why?" Tell a child "yes" and you can witness the birth of success, the opening of doors and the opportunity for that child to raise their children in a better society. One where they can make a positve impact and influence to others. |
Date: 10/20/2003 10:58:00 AM
From Authorid: 36967
It is not really connected, but in somes sense it may be, because before then, we didn't have a problems we have today. Well that could be a coincidence, or is it.  |
Date: 10/20/2003 11:01:00 AM
From Authorid: 53284
Not all public schools are the same. Some are great. We chose to live in a community that has exceedingly good public schools. Our kids did very well with their education after they went on to college.  |
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Date: 10/20/2003 11:05:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
So God should be put back in school because it gives people an answer to their lifes? Doesn't that just come down to using God to answer unanswered questions, like in the past? |
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Date: 10/20/2003 11:06:00 AM
From Authorid: 36967
Here is the thing, I am not saying that we need to bring prayer backm but we need to enforce the proper values in schools. For example, there was a case in a school near where I was, a Health Teacher was actually fired for teaching that forgiveness is more healthy than non-forgiveness. He was fired because that was a biblical value. Well I say WHO CARES if it comes from the Bible or not. What we need to bring back displine in schools. If you misbehave in school in the 1930's and 1940's, you would be smack in the hand with a ruler, and if your parents found out about it, then you would get beaten at home. But today displine is against everything that is socially acceptable. We need to bring back the values in school, and displine. |
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Date: 10/20/2003 11:09:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
I can just imagine the science teacher saying cars run on petrol because God does it. |
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Date: 10/20/2003 12:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 53961
During one of my professional careers of ten years, I spent A LOT of time in classrooms. Not as a teacher. I was their on a different level. The most unacceptable thing I ever heard come out of a teacher's mouth after she read off a list of birth control ways was, "Abstinence is another way, but no one uses it. It is too hard to do..." What does that teach a child who is not taught at home that he or she is indeed special and their body is indeed a sacred thing to be respected and revered? You can move more mountains with a positive attitude and Divine intervention, than you can with negative opinions and immoral values. |
Date: 10/20/2003 12:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Back when I was a kid in school, there were all kinds of things going on, but we never heard of them the way we do today. If a teenager got pregnant, it wasn't spread all over every where; it wasn't talked about. It was taboo to even say the word. Absence of a student was explained as "Susie had to go take care of an elderly relative" *wink* There were "date rapes" but the female was labeled as "easy" or a "tramp" and the boy as "just being boys". We didn't have all the technology that we have today. Today, whenever anything happens, it is flashed around the world; in a nano second, right into our living rooms, in digital sound and technicolor. IF it wasn't this way, and you didn't see it LIVE, reported on television, and on the internet, it wouldn't be so overwhelming and therefore appear as though it is in epidemic proportions the way it does.  |
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Date: 10/20/2003 12:12:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Paula, the old "abstinence" does not work. I can personally relate several girls who were from very religious homes that taught that. They became parents at 16-17 and say that had they had the knowledge of birth control and had been able to discuss sex with their parents, in all probability, they'd not have had it happen to them. |
Date: 10/20/2003 12:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 25756
Just making it so people can't pray in school can't be the reason so many horrible things are happening in school. Kids couls practice their religion elsewhere. Around that same time period when prayer was being taken from schools, there were other things happening that contributed to kids not caring and not paying attention to their teachers etc. This had to do mainly with the parents I'm sure. If they can't keep control over their kids, how can they expect the teachers to, and especially with all the laws restricting what both the teachers and parents can hand out as disipline, as in "You can't spank your child." Hey, it works! I mean as long as it's not full-on beating the kid, it's teaching them to respect them authority. Anyway, I'm straggling a bit off-topic here. No, I don't believe that things in school are the way they are JUST because Christianity is being taken out of schools.  |
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Date: 10/20/2003 12:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 25756
Just making it so people can't pray in school can't be the reason so many horrible things are happening in school. Kids couls practice their religion elsewhere. Around that same time period when prayer was being taken from schools, there were other things happening that contributed to kids not caring and not paying attention to their teachers etc. This had to do mainly with the parents I'm sure. If they can't keep control over their kids, how can they expect the teachers to, and especially with all the laws restricting what both the teachers and parents can hand out as disipline, as in "You can't spank your child." Hey, it works! I mean as long as it's not full-on beating the kid, it's teaching them to respect them authority. Anyway, I'm straggling a bit off-topic here. No, I don't believe that things in school are the way they are JUST because Christianitly is being taken out of schools. |
Date: 10/20/2003 12:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 3125
I disagree with the statement of "the removal of God from the public school system is directly related to the amount of drug use, teen pregnancies, violence." I strongly believe that drug abuse, teen pregnancies, violence, etc is the result of parents failing to teach their children responsibilities at home. I believe parents are failing their children by not laying down strict rules and strictly enforcing these rules. Many children today rule and control their parents. Many children are ignored in about any way possibile so that the parents are not bothered with them. Since in many homes both parents work outside the home or there is a single parent, they are too tired to deal with their children appropiately. If parents would teach their children to have respect for morals and what is good, then why teach God in school? Schools are not there to teach a child moral responsibilities, etc but they are there to teach our children math, history, etc, etc. God's Word does not teach us to PUSH nor to FORCE His will upon anyone. God says "Whosoever will" and that is placing the responsiblity upon each individual. Regardless, If I want to say a prayer, whether in school or in a restaurant or where ever, no one can stop me. If someone attempted to stop me, then they would be stepping on my rights. If people insists that everyone join in a prayer in school, at sports games, or any place, I believe they are stepping on the rights of other US citizens who do not share the same beliefs. Regardless, I do not believe evolution should be taught as fact in our schools. To teach evolution theories as fact to our children is pushing and forcing a single belief.  |
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Date: 10/20/2003 12:15:00 PM
From Authorid: 25756
(Sorry about that) |
Date: 10/20/2003 12:30:00 PM
From Authorid: 59876
moral decline. parents afraid of disciplining their kids, political correctness and zero tolerance to the point of stupidity, sex education as an experience in exploration and sensuality as opposed to sex education as in biology, , children having children, children having abortions, children being given the rights of adults when they are only children, media, blah, blah, blah, and so on. that is my take on it. as for the religious part of it, i don't see it as the removal of religion o from schools, but the division of people selfish in their desire to promote their ideas above all else. quite prominent just in this forum even. when you have an argument to death and there is no concessions, even though the concessions are obvious, i see that as pure agenda, not concern for anyones education, safety, constitutional rights, etc. what i see it coming down to in schools is lack of respect ultimately. religion or lack thereof is a part of that i think, but not necessarily in schools, and that is not all of it by a long shot. more like how a child is raised, the focuses of the family, time spent as a family, religious instruction, teaching respect for others and basic manners.  |
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Date: 10/20/2003 12:30:00 PM
From Authorid: 52155
Yes Agent Q, you are right. IT does have a lot to do with parents. Those first parents that weren't taught Gods principles in school then didn't teach them to their kids. Then those kids didn't teach them to their kids, etc, etc. It get progressively worse each generation as each generation moves farther from God and his teachings. |
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Date: 10/20/2003 12:43:00 PM
From Authorid: 59876
a perfect example in my opinion is this, the child that does not want to even hear the pledge because their sensibilities are offended. definite parental guidence imo, and what child needs the burdens beyond what theiy have to bear in early childhood. this statement is not about god in the pledge, it is about the extremely oversensitive behavior children are being taught. it is basic respect to show respect to that which is meaningful to others even if it isn't meaningful to you unless it is harmful or violent. respect and tolerance for fellow human beings. teach your kids to fight the battles they believe in, but make them worthy. the battle cry of whether god belongs in the pledge is a worthy one i think, good points on both sides. hypersensitivity though, and hyper political correctness, hyper zero tolerance, i find divisive and disrespectful instead of pulling people together and teaching them to be respectful. i see it having the opposite effect of its intentions. hope that made sense. i got major distractions going on here lol. |
Date: 10/20/2003 12:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
We have perfect example sitting right under our noses. We STILL have private Christian schools. Now I don't and can't speak for Christian schools in other areas, however the ones that are in mine aren't any different from the public schools. You still have your bullies of all kinds, they still use drugs, have sex, go to parties, spend hours driving around for no reason and act like their peers. We have even has instances of sexual misconduct between students and teachers in those same private religious schools. Looking at it statistically do these kids acheive anymore or anyless. It would appear that way because people look at the religious aspect and say it's because of that. Realistically it is because the schools are smaller, they have more staff, and there is more one on one individual time with teachers. Any child is going to benefit greatly from that position. But is it really because they are learning about God at the same time? I don't believe so because the kids that go to the Catholic schools here have the same interests in movies, television shows, activities, clothing and hair styles etc.  |
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Date: 10/20/2003 1:02:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Paula in all seriousness, your right to pray has not been removed. A child can attend a public school and pray all they wish to and such as there is with EVERYTHING else in life, there are guidelines. As long as it is not interferring with classroom instruction, is not a distraction to others, and is not an attempt to teach, instruct or lead others into your prayer you are free to pray. Does that seem like a lot of stipulations? |
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Date: 10/20/2003 2:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 59876
actually there have been a few incidents of children being busted for praying at school that didn't meet any of that criteria, i'm sure most of you have seen them. really though, it isn't any different than any of the other extremes that have been taken, ie; the five year old and her friends that got busted praying over their lunch before eating, or the kid that got busted for letting his girlfriend use his inhaler when she was in distress. adults taking zero tolerance to stupid extremes. <<no common sense. |
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Date: 10/20/2003 3:21:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
doheney, that was a hoax about in Texas the 5-year-old Shannon. According to the 1992 story passed on by Pat Robertson's "700 Club," (he is forever passing on stories like this he KNOWS aren't true!) she'd been told by her teachers in Kingsville she couldn't say grace over her meal. One technical problem with that story. Shannon didn't exist. Or if she existed, she didn't attend Kingsville schools. But Kingsville, and all other public schools, took a mighty airwave thrashing. Concocted incidents purporting to demonstrate how public schools "crush" religious liberties could fill up volumes. Let's commission Paul Dickson. His book, There Are Alligators in Our Sewers, takes on widespread urban myths. He'd have a field day with what the Religious Right passes on as Gospel. The Rev. James Watkins of the Old South Church of Christ in Kirtland, Ohio, could write the book. He chases down stories in which students allegedly have been denied the right to pray. His assessment: lies, lies, and MORE lies. The Religious Right sprays hoaxes like mushrooms disseminate spores. Then the hoaxes bear their fruit in cover of night. "When asked by informed investigators," writes Watkins in a recent commentary, those with the wild assertions "are unable to produce one bona fide instance of a student's right to pray being violated by a public school official anywhere." Advocacy groups like the Rutherford Institute exist to take flimsy allegations to court. Even if it is frivolous, the suits will still harvest some ink, prestige, and financial backing. In St. Louis, with the involvement of the Rutherford Institute, the Waring School is being sued by a former student who asserts he was punished for praying over his lunch. School officials say plain old misbehavior, not prayer, is the issue. The plaintiff said he has witnesses, but didn't produce them. I don't know about you but I've gotten a whole bunch of such stories and I know very well that the people who pass those stories on could care less whether they are true or not. |
Date: 10/20/2003 3:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 36901
Here we go again...  |
Date: 10/20/2003 3:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 45630
Christianity hasn't been in most Australian public high schools for years. We have catholic schools and such for that. At primary school we have compulsory religion classes but when we reach high school we are deemed old enough to make the choice for ourselves. I don't think this has destroyed Australia!  |
Date: 10/20/2003 3:38:00 PM
From Authorid: 62367
As far as I am concerned, prayer was never taken out of schools. There is absolutely nothing in the law that says individuals can not pray in school. The law made organized public prayers in public schools illegal. The problems in the schools would still exist even if the law was changed. The problems in school reflect the problems of society as a whole. The problems within families need to be addressed before changing the schools. Teaching children morality in school has been a bone of contention for years.  |
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Date: 10/20/2003 4:21:00 PM
From Authorid: 36967
I think this Seperation of Church and State, if it is in the proper boundaries, I would 100 percent for it, but it has gotten out of it's boundaries, and totally gone too far. Thinker, these things do happen. I know some people who this has actaully happen to. |
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Date: 10/20/2003 4:23:00 PM
From Authorid: 59876
thank you thinker |
Date: 10/20/2003 5:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 54987
Well it holds water for Christians as they will tell you. Most people in America believe in God and the majority believe in a Christian God. What I think is wrong with people is that there is no moral teachings. I don't mean Christian parables, and I don't mean putting fear into people to make them toe the line. What I mean is true morality. Christians do their own morality teaching in their churches, but it is possible to teach morals without religion. Everyone has an instinctive knowing about 'good' and 'bad'. I don't think its the fact that schools are not having religious instruction. They are just not given instruction on good citizenship and social and moral behaviours.  |
Date: 10/20/2003 5:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Ditto to what Rusure said.....  |
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Date: 10/21/2003 2:22:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
"From Authorid: 52155 Yes Agent Q, you are right. IT does have a lot to do with parents. Those first parents that weren't taught Gods principles in school then didn't teach them to their kids. Then those kids didn't teach them to their kids, etc, etc. It get progressively worse each generation as each generation moves farther from God and his teachings." - So Atheists are more worse than Christians? What rubbish, its to do with morals and values independently of God. Maybe you only have morals to make God happy, but there exists stronger people that have morals without God. |
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Date: 10/21/2003 7:32:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13974
Eddo, it is more than just a bit naive to think that chewing gum was the biggest problem in schools before prayer was removed and you have yet to show that the removal of prayer had any effect in the first place. And wildflower, was your child in a public school, or a Christian based private school? There is a large difference between the two. You would probably not see a Buddhist sending their child to a private Christian school. If they did, there would be serious issues, but it would be their own fault. Public schools are another breed altogether. They encompass a wide range of people, from all different faith groups, including those who do not have a faith at all. Nobody has told kids they cannot, or even should not pray. All they have said is that the school cannot sanction it. Now if you think that your kid wont pray unless told to, that is an issue between you and them, but it is not the public schools responsibility to do so. Now as for prayer being a good thing, I believe often times it is, if you are praying because you have faith, and believe in it. But when you ask a group of children to pray, taking time out of class, and sanctioning it by the school, you are purposely ostracizing those who do not have a religion, thus putting those of faith above those with a lack there of. Why is it necessary that the school sanction their prayer, are they incapable of doing so on their own, can't they take time out off their lives to do so without taking the time of everyone else, do they have to be forced to pray or it just wont get done? Why should the school have to do it? What is the purpose in that? I never said prayer was a bad thing, what I said was nobody has shown in any way shape or form that it's removal had any effect at all on the well being of the school system. And as for this ignorant and foolish comment "Abstinence is another way, but no one uses it. It is too hard to do..." This may be stupid, but what does it have to do with prayer in public schools? Abstinence cannot be taught without religion to go in hand with it? And everyone, write this down in the log of USM history… Rusure… AMEN SISTER!!! And Agent Q, nobody made it so kids cannot pray in school, they said the school cannot sanction the prayer. Eddo, I have asked you this multiple times, and as far as I can tell, you have yet to answer, why do you act like a person cannot have sound moral judgment without Christianity. You act as if people are incapable of being good, and moral without your religion in their lives, or passing it on to others. So doheney, a child that cannot pledge their allegiance to this country, without pledging it to God too is being overly sensitive? Seeing that Christians are held in a higher regard than them just because they don’t believe in the invisible man in the sky is over sensitivity? In what way? And what are these incidences of kids being “busted for praying” at school? |
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Date: 10/21/2003 10:15:00 AM
From Authorid: 54987
I'd just like to add one more thing. If you sincerely believe in a God then you cannot take God out of anything. There is a huge difference between a God and the word 'God'. |
Date: 10/21/2003 11:42:00 AM
From Authorid: 52155
A person can me good and moral without Christianity, but those morals and good qualities orginally came from God. That is my point. I mean to offend no one here, and hope I have not done so. Christians are not any "better" than atheists, and I did not mean to imply that. We are just forgiven...  |
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Date: 10/21/2003 1:19:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Good point Eddo. |
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Date: 10/21/2003 3:09:00 PM
From Authorid: 59876
not at all. read it again. i said it was not about god in the pledge, it was lack of respect. nothing at this very moment can be decided about god in the pledge as it is at this moment in the works for what? a year or so? my point was that it does no harm to listen as a sign of respect to people that the pledge in it's state right now does matter to. it does no harm to listen. the harm is in the exclusion of people that do not have a god belief which as i said, that is in the works right now. if my sister, my friend, my father, my husband, my coworkers, whatever, people that i care about were reciting something that was important to them but not to me, i would listen or drift, whatever! in respectful silence until they were done as a sign of respect for them. (as long as it is not harmful, which i do not see the pledge as harmful) that is the way i was raised and that is the way i believe it should be. i don't find prayer, the wiccan rede, the pledge, etc harmful, it is all about respect for that which supports good. personally, i'd be singing a different tune were we talking about creeds and mottos of those that support white supremecy, the kkk, the black panthers, etc. i see much of that as hateful. overall, i stand by my statement that we in general are teaching kids to be hypersensitive and that we are seeing alot of situations in the news regarding children in which the adults are completely lacking common sense. you don't have to like it, but there it is. |
Date: 10/21/2003 9:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
You said, " believers HAVE been and contintue to try an force their beliefs on others." This post does the same thing, unbelievers Have been and CONTINUE to try an force their non belief upon others. When a nation does not reguard God then God will disreguard the nation. Personally I think its too late to put God back in the schools. Already the kids are against their parents, hatefull, dispitefull, disobedient. Eddo is right. I"m not saying all kids, but in times past you did not see kids that brought knives to school, guns to school, slapped teachers around, called them names. They do this to their parents too.  |
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Date: 10/22/2003 5:04:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
"A person can me good and moral without Christianity, but those morals and good qualities orginally came from God." - They exist in most beliefs, so its not just your God, although he seems to be lacking in moral and good qualities. |
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Date: 10/22/2003 8:54:00 AM
From Authorid: 34487
Sorry but God doesn't "lack" anything that's good. |
Date: 10/22/2003 12:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
People only need to go and spend some time with juvenile offenders to realize it has nothing to do with not having been taught about God. They have God in their lives, they go and do their drive bys, rapes, stabbings, shootings, beatings and car jackings while wearing their crosses and crucifixes around their necks. Their parents come screaming down to the jails and courts yelling and crying about how they are a God loving family and they taught their children about God etc. Their homes are filled with religious objects. God is not the cause nor the answer, parents who do not parent are the problem. Schools should not dictate or teach morality, parents and families should. Keep all of it out of schools so schools can go back to teaching.  |
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Date: 10/23/2003 2:56:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
Maybe in christian minds he doesn't but I'm talking about proper morals. |
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Date: 10/23/2003 7:25:00 AM
From Authorid: 54987
Excellent point Base! You know I read somewhere... a while back about what someone said about this. They said that parents are not necessarily the right people to bring up kids. They said that the problem is that it's kids bringing up kids. That the grandparents, who have gained wisdom over their lives should be the ones to do it. I wish I could remember who said that. Anyway just a thought. |
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Date: 10/23/2003 7:43:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13974
Doheney, does it do any harm to listen? No. But does it do harm to the child who does not believe to be shown that in order to be a good citizen, you must also worship a God you do not believe in? As the pledge stands now, it is in part, and oath to God. As the pledge is an oath, and takes God as a given, this is an oath to God himself (even if in only a secondary fashion.) Now if a child does not believe in God, but wants to be a good citizen, they cannot in good conscience, and in honesty pledge their allegiance to their country by using the federally sanctioned fashion, because it is also an oath to God (as I said, not an oath of loyalty to God, but the existence of God as a given in a secondary fashion.) So, my child goes to school, and learns the pledge, learns that this is how we show respect for our country and our flag. What do I tell him when he comes home? When he says "But daddy, I know we don't believe in God, but the Government says that he is real, and even mentions him in the pledge. I want to say the pledge, but I can't because of that, why wont they take it out?" What am I supposed to tell him, that because Christians are the majority in our nation, they are better than us? That his own feelings and spiritual views don't matter, because the Christians can’t exercise their freedom of religion without in some way imposing it on the rest of us? That he cannot pledge his allegiance to this country because he is not a Christian? Sounds like a second-class society to me. And firstborn, where is the correlation between the behavior of these children, and their lack, and the removal of prayer from school? Show me where, that is all I have asked. And Eddo, thank you for answering my question. |
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Date: 10/25/2003 5:41:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
RodTod....Many Christians have 'proper morals' just as many that aren't Christians believe they do to. Generalizations only perpetuate hatred and animosity and are very unproductive. |
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Date: 10/25/2003 5:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
^^^Correction....that should read NEGATIVE generalizations. |
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Date: 10/25/2003 5:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Phydeaux....If a child that isn't Christians wants to pledge his allegiance to his country without pledging it to God, the answer is simple. Just don't say it when everyone else does. |
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Date: 10/25/2003 5:45:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
^^^it's not too hard to just omit the words "under God" from the pledge if one so chooses. |
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Date: 10/25/2003 5:51:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
^^^^^^^Translation: "Why can't everyone just cater to me and those who think like me rather than be Universal?" |
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Date: 10/25/2003 10:24:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
^^^^THINKER....you must be speakin' about yourself there because that SO applies to you. I wonder why it popped in your head, the answer is quite obvious. |
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Date: 10/25/2003 10:26:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
^^^^THINKER....you seem to enjoy this pattern of insulting the opinions of others in the hopes of making your own opinion seem superior. I'd have to say....IT'S NOT WORKING. |
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Date: 10/26/2003 3:45:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
You Choose, I'm talking about Gods morals not Christians. |
Date: 10/26/2003 8:05:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
O.K. Put this into USM history: AMEN, KOOLADE! (referring to his 10/21/2003 10:15A.M. comment How is this for correlation, Phydeaux: A teacher who went to school in the seventies was shaped by all of his or her environment, including the taboo of referencing God, and is now exposing his or her students to that same mind-set, thereby perpetuating a FALSE notion that He somehow isn't worthy of mention in this type of setting, thereby leading to a deficiency in LEARNING for those students who are not from any kind of a God-believing family of the possibility that humans came about at His Hand. I am talking about myself up there. As an eighth grader, I can still vividly recall my classmate that got pregnant tell us all about how a vaccuum came and sucked out that life from her in health class. It is as Doheney is stating: One side is being respected while the other is not. It is difficult for God-believing teachers to teach in that type of setting, i.e., not to be able to reference their WHOLE POINT OF REFERENCE. Teaching then becomes a detached process, no compassion for the subject matter comes through, and students CAN SENSE THAT and wonder what in the heck do I have to sit here and listen to this drivel for? They begin to look for distractions in their lives as they are not given any focus on LIFE itself. Now, while I didn't actually become a teacher to kids, as I taught adults, I DID reference God, and felt comfortable doing so, and I believe my students were comfortable with the references I made which did allow for any of their non-belief to "be there". Now, as I volunteer teach kids at a parochial school, I find it so much more refreshing to not have to be so choosy with my words about God, and, YES, the Buddah raised kid who was a student there last year, was just as receptive to my words as the rest of the kids. There is no DENOMINATION to God. If you choose to raise your child without a belief in God, why is it so difficult for you to let him know that there are people out there that DO believe in God, and that believing that our country is Blessed by Him is just as much their right as him saying something like "one nation, afterall, indivisible, with liberty and justice FOR ALL" (my emphasis? God Bless.  |
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Date: 10/27/2003 8:44:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13974
You Choose, why should that child have to be singled out from the pledge? Why shouldn't we have a pledge that represents ALL of our people, not just your sect? Taking God out excludes nobody from the pledge, while leaving it in does exclude. Simple stuff here. It isn't even as if the pledge originally contained that line. It was added 50 years ago. Why should your faith be able to exclude others? What makes you so special? Are you better than us? We can't use the state sanctioned pledge, that is for you, and not for us, are we less than true Americans than you, do we deserve less respect than you? See Deb, as always you assume I don't expose my kids to religion, and want to hide it from them. We have copies of the Bible all over my house, and I have told them many stories from it. I have explained people's faith to them. Not a big deal. They can follow any faith that they like. What I don't want is the government telling them that your religion is worthier of respect than their lack of it, which is EXACTLY what has happened for so many years. How is anything that is being done today harming kid's faith? Why does your faith need to enter the classroom? Nobody is taking away anyone else's faith, jut making an equal level playing field. What is so wrong about that? Why is it wrong for your religion to be no more respected than any other? What is so terrible about that? "One side is being respected while the other is not." And back that statement up. As far as kids looking for distractions, that is what they do, God or no God, so I still see no correlation. |
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Date: 10/27/2003 3:50:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
Some distractions can be positive, Phydeaux. And with positive messages to kids instead of impassioned rote, those positive distractions can be beneficial to society as a whole. You keep spouting "religion", and I keep talking about being able to mention "God" in classrooms, and so we are not even debating the same thing, hon. I don't think of God as being superior to "other religions" since I believe all religions are all attempting to explain the same "Thing", which I just happen to refer to as God. God bless. |
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Date: 10/27/2003 10:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Phydeaux...I'm sorry but I just don't put this issue on top of the "high priority" list. I know many others who don't either and they aren't Christians. Maybe, people should focus on the Bigger Picture in life, instead of fighting for stuff that doesn't cause them physical or mental pain. I know that ultimately, changes will be made and God's name will be removed but ya' know what? I have other things in life to worry about and many, many, bigger problems to focus on. So, I won't be fighting to have his name put back in. This country (as a fellow USMer pointed out to me in a recent discussion), isn't worthy of having God's name on it anywhere now anyway. |
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Date: 10/28/2003 6:33:00 AM
From Authorid: 54987
I am sure any God would not be so petty as to be upset at having their name removed from money or pledges which are man-made and often corrupt. As far as this country not being worth having God's name on it anywhere - I would rather people of this country see God in their hearts instead of their pockets. Maybe God is on the side of taking the word off in the hope that it will open their eyes to where God really resides. |
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Date: 10/28/2003 7:44:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13974
Ok Deb, would you be cool with a teacher in a class deciding they wanted to talk about their lord and master Satan to fourth graders? And you choose, I hear this a lot, that this is a minor issue, but it is odd how this minor issue creates such long, passionate debates with these exact same people. |
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Date: 10/28/2003 8:09:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
Phydeaux, "Satan" is the self who feels they have the power which really resides with God. Without giving a definition of that supposed "entity", or without using the word "satan", there are people in ALL WALKS OF LIFE that do just what you are talking about. And as I said in another debate very similar to this one (Base's, I believe), when the majority have the rule, that is the way it is, until another majority comes forward, which as You Choose has pointed out, we who understand God's Word already are prepared for that. And just because at some point the anti-God ("Satanists" in the true meaning of the word) people will be in the majority does not mean that I will change MY STANCE and continue to voice MY OPINION on what I believe, just as you (as a member of the minority, for now) are doing here. God Bless. |
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Date: 10/28/2003 8:13:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13974
Well, thank you for your take on how evil works, but could you simply answer the question? |
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Date: 10/28/2003 8:14:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13974
BTW, if people can spread Satans rule without mentioning him, wy can't the same be done with the teachings of God? Anyway, I am talking about when a kid asks a question, the teacher responds with "Oh well that is because Satan, that is who I worship..." Now, could you just answer? |
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Date: 10/28/2003 9:52:00 AM
From Authorid: 34487
I still agree with what BCAR said on another post with this same issue..."There are REAL problems out there people." Well, I'm done here, bye bye... |
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Date: 10/28/2003 10:13:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
Yeah, You Choose, the fact that many people do not know what the Laws of the Constitution are all about, and or wish to ignore them, the fact that these matters effect US ALL, yeah, it is not a "real" problem....to SOME people, not a problem at all...yeah, sure. The "general" position of the separation of church and state standard is to keep government representation from promoting religion by simply remaining free from religious icons and authority reflective of exclusive dogma that would limit and/or exclusively promote the types, gender and numbers of gods, ritual practices, etc. and give the impression that others, not of like mindset, would NOT be valued as an equal citizens. (not a real problem, eh?) This neutrality will allow for religion and OTHER views to flourish in society and allow ALL of these views to be expressed and practiced as long as they harm none. Churches are to preach, schools are to teach and the government (OF THE PEOPLE, BY THE PEOPLE) is to allow for liberty to prevail. There is not much more to it than that. Societal ills can be attributed to many things, You Choose, but if you stick to the rationale that religious morals are to GUIDE people, then these very same people certainly should find their compass in their CHURCH or within the ancestral tradition of their HOMES and families. |
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Date: 10/28/2003 11:17:00 AM
From Authorid: 34487
Thinker, my opinion and feelings on this...isn't up for debate, sorry. I KNOW there are other FAR more important issues then this and that IS a fact, not just an opinion. What's a major priority for you, isn't always a major priority for everyone else. Like I said on another post...it's only a matter of WHEN God's name is removed from everything. Will I be fighting to get his name back on things...NO. Why? Because there are FAR MORE IMPORTANT issues then this in life and I don't think our country is truly deserving of his name anymore anyway. |
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Date: 10/28/2003 11:22:00 AM
From Authorid: 34487
^^^should say...."Like I said in my comment above..." not "Like I said on another post..." |
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Date: 10/28/2003 12:29:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
THERE! Why can't they???? Why can't people spread the teachings of God without mentioning Him? Because you and a lot of other people take issue with that and make such a big deal out of it. Meaning an effective gag order on teachers to not mention where their point of reference in LIFE resides and how it affects their presentation. Meaning no passion in their voices, no gestures to the "above", no desire in their job if in that job they are NOT ALLOWED TO BE THEMSELVES. Now to answer your question: Am I cool with a teacher standing in front of a bunch of impressionable kids and telling them that he worships Satan? Sure. Go ahead. Because I know it's not going to be in front of my kids since I have already made the decision that they SHOULD HEAR about all this stuff as it is in school; in case I haven't made it clear, they go to a parochial school. God Bless. |
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Date: 10/29/2003 8:26:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13974
I am not just talking about your kid's specificly. I am talking about in general terms, in public school, tax funded. Not a religious school, since they have nothing to do with this debate in any way. |
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Date: 10/29/2003 8:29:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13974
Why can't they? I don't know Deb, you are the one that seems to think you can't teach a kid not to lie cheat and steal unless you mention God. These are values that we can all support, and would be welcomed into the classroom. Why would God have to be mentioned at all unless you were teaching values that only relate to spirituality? Why does God need to be mentioned, or religion have to be mentioned to tell a kid that they should be nice to people Deb? What is holding the teacher back from this? In what way does this create an inability for the teacher to teach the kids, unless they are trying to promote their religion in the classroom? |
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Date: 10/29/2003 7:34:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
Well I used my kids' situation specifically, Phydeaux, to show a point. Should a teacher say that in a classroom there, the whole subject of what exactly is meant by Satan would be discussed. And the kids their get the message -- that Satan is the worldly pull. So, teachers that are "Satanists" DO GET to put out their point of reference in a classroom setting, merely by being themselves. Now, those with a God belief, and, therefore a God-inspired lexicon in the majority of cases, DO NOT GET to be themselves in the classroom, if the idea and/or mention of God is prohibited. When people are stifled and unable to be themselves, that "inability" affects presentation, tone, enthusiasm, etc. And THAT is picked up on by kids. God Bless. |
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Date: 10/30/2003 7:12:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
That should read: "and the kids there . . ." Sorry for any confusion. God Bless. |
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Date: 10/30/2003 7:57:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13974
No, see, you are looking at this from only how YOU define Satan, many consider him to be a tangible being, and think of him in the concrete, not the abstract. Many who worship Satan worship him as an equal to God in every sense. Regardless of if this is correct or not (as that is not the debate) that is how it is seen by so many. You cannot limit this to what YOU believe Satan to be, as your deffinition is both at the same time broad and inspecific, while ignoring aspects that other find key. And are you saying that everyone but Christians get to do whatever they like, and pass on any info they like? Only the Christian voice is stifled? And the Christian cannot get across telling kids to be nice to each other without bringing up God? |
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Date: 11/1/2003 8:14:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
O.K. is that my mistake or was my last comment deleted? I am fairly certain I saw it up here . . . (And if it was deleted, well, then, that just goes to further substantiate the content of the comment, huhGod Bless. |
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