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Date: 10/10/2003 8:51:00 AM
From Authorid: 59418
i dont think atheists will be punished unless they are nasty people in general....if they are athiest but lovely, caring people i see no reason why tehy should be punished.  |
Date: 10/10/2003 9:00:00 AM
From Authorid: 47296
I have always felt a person is judged by their deeds. I do know Atheists that are more loving and caring people than some who call tehmselves Christian. If we are to be judged by our deeds, then I do not feel a good person would be punished.  |
Date: 10/10/2003 9:02:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13974
While I agree that would be true in a fair and just Universe, that is not always the impression you will get from hearing many Christians speak.  |
Date: 10/10/2003 9:04:00 AM
From Authorid: 35720
Seeing as how I would be considered atheist, I don't think God will punish ANYONE because I don't believe in him.  |
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Date: 10/10/2003 9:06:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13974
I am an Atheist too Rika, this is a hypothetical. |
Date: 10/10/2003 9:07:00 AM
From Authorid: 13297
Maybe we make God in OUR image. What I mean by that is that if quantum mechanics and such ideas are true and we have the ability to manipulate our own realities then to the athiest God doesn't exist so therefore God truly doesn't exist in his/her reality. If that assertion is true then who would be there to punish the athiest? Just another random thought. For the record, no I don't think the athiest would be punished. I think if you're a good person, with a good heart and you lead a good life and you believe your particular belief for the right reasons and with not a single doubt - then that is what counts. But now we are talking beliefs and we all know if we get into that tangent where we'll end up... Another good though provoking post. cheers,  |
Date: 10/10/2003 9:09:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
If belief in God and Jesus is all thats required, someone can do some horrible things but as long as they repent, they get into heaven. But Atheist who doesn't have faith, even if they helped people will go to hell with murders and rapists who didn't repent. Heaven will have believeing murders and rapists and hell will have non-believeing murders and rapists, is there going to be much difference?  |
Date: 10/10/2003 9:12:00 AM
From Authorid: 1225
(Looks like we have a George Carlin fan here  ) I, being agnostic, have used many of those arguments against organized religion (specifically Christianity). But I should like to point out that while there is not enough evidence to prove the existance of a God or Gods, there is likewise insufficient evidence that there is not. Regardless, any God that calls him/herself omnibenevelant and yet allows suffering is not worthy of worship. I would believe that, if there is a God, he or she (it?) are less concerned with who or what we venerate so long as we don't go around killing each other in the name of God.  |
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Date: 10/10/2003 9:14:00 AM
From Authorid: 1225
Additionally, what of the people who never "hear the word of God" and are thus"unsaved"? Would they be punished for their ignorance of God (read: Christianity/Islam/Judaism)? |
Date: 10/10/2003 9:14:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
Phydeaux, my comment on your previous post answered this. If as an atheist, all you believe in is THIS LIFE, and that THIS WORLD is all you can ever experience, how does that make it a punishment for you for God to give you what you believed in? God Bless.  |
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Date: 10/10/2003 9:18:00 AM
From Authorid: 13297
Deb, that would be true if God allowed you to just *wink out* if you're a non-believer. But doesn't the general God-fearing population believe that non-believers go to hell? |
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Date: 10/10/2003 9:20:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13974
George Carlin fan, yes, but I have been asking these a long time, hehehehe. Deb, I never described a punishment, so what does your comment have to do with anything. This is also a good example of point 5. Christians can't even agree amongst themselves what the Bible says or means. That view isn't the only accepted one, and in truth, I can see nothing in the Bible to back that one up that I know of. Now, are you saying that God will not punish? Or that his reaction would be to wipe you out into oblivion and nothingness? Or are you simply answering a question with a question. Speaking of the other post... |
Date: 10/10/2003 9:46:00 AM
From Authorid: 12835
Oh I agree, Atheists are evil....LOL  |
Date: 10/10/2003 9:51:00 AM
From Authorid: 15228
You might say that Atheists are somewhat condescending or maybe arrogant, that would be a true statement if we go by what you wrote (big invisible man and all). Especially considering you are "judging" well over 75 percent of the population who believes in a big invisible man in the sky. But hey, that's okay. Nothing evil about that.  |
Date: 10/10/2003 9:53:00 AM
From Authorid: 24003
LOL St. Pete!  |
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Date: 10/10/2003 9:55:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13974
Kelly, how is that judging, those statements are only an examination of the situation at hand. I see no arogance? And what does any of what you said relate to this debate? |
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Date: 10/10/2003 10:07:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
"You might say that Atheists are somewhat condescending or maybe arrogant" - compared to Christians that believe "my God is better than yours and is real, and if you dont believe me you're going to hell, I'm right and you're wrong" ? |
Date: 10/10/2003 10:25:00 AM
From Authorid: 2030
My thoughts: If Christians are right then some day all the Athiests will be sharing a dormitory with Jeffery Dahlmer. If the Athiests are right .... well then none of you are going to get to say, "I told you so".  |
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Date: 10/10/2003 10:36:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13974
Man, is anyone going to comment on the debate at hand. Here, let me update it. |
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Date: 10/10/2003 10:38:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
And what if a different Religion is right? |
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Date: 10/10/2003 10:40:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13974
There the update has been made. So you don't have to read it again if you have already done so once, at the begining I added... "Just as I said in the debate on free will, for the purpose of debate, let's assume that the Christian God does exist as recognised by the christian faith (this is NOT a debate over who is right and who is wrong on the subject of does God exist.)" and reiterated the point at the end with... "Remember, this is about will God punish an Atheist, not if God exists or not. That is for a whole other debate." |
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Date: 10/10/2003 10:48:00 AM
From Authorid: 1225
Hey Phy, remeber this GC routine: "do you believe in God?" "no.." *bang* dead. "Do you believe in God?" "yes..." "Do you believe in MY God?" "no.." *bang* dead. "My God is more manly than your God!" |
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Date: 10/10/2003 10:51:00 AM
From Authorid: 1225
Assuming for the moment that the Christian God exists, and exists in the most commonly accepted manner, then I would say that atheists and agnostics are going to hell. Those who never heard the word of God but led good lives are judged on their actions. Those who never heard of God and led "wicked" lives go to hell. That's my interpretation IF the Christian God exists. |
Date: 10/10/2003 11:47:00 AM
From Authorid: 45551
Well, using a method of scientific comparison with a couple other beings that posess some what similar powers..... Santa Clause doesn't bring toyed to naughty children, the Tooth Fairy doesn't leave money for kids whose teeth have cavity's it would stand to reason that a God would punish non-believers in some way.  |
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Date: 10/10/2003 12:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 2030
I'd say Neptune hit it well. For the purpose of your debate, if someone knew and/ or heard the word of God and choose not to follow then yes, you're on the hell train. |
Date: 10/10/2003 12:38:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Yepper's, Gawd's gonna roast us all on the Crispy Christ Cooker. Well done is the only choice; y'ouse don't even get fries with that. SERIOUSLY now, Phydeux, You're very correct on all points. Just because I use my reason; I use my brain and study, I have examine many many myriad facts of history, and based upon the facts (instead of emotion), I have made my decision; yes, for THAT the "Loving" Big Man-in-the-sky *wink* is going to flip the switcheroo and fry this "evil" carcass. JC, I's a comin', honey! Tell Thomas Paine and Ingersoll to get ready boys!  |
Date: 10/10/2003 12:38:00 PM
From Authorid: 21867
I agree with TwoSpirit...judgement by deeds.  |
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Date: 10/10/2003 12:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 21867
"I see no arogance?"...I think thats half the problem Phy...neither 'side' seems to see their own arrogance around here sometimes...both 'sides' believe they are right and don't seem opposed to ridiculing/demonising the other to get their point across. Not saying I'm in anyway perfect either...but reading many of the 'debates' on these topics seems to indicate the assumptions: Atheists = God/Chistian-hating nasty evil people. Christians = Atheist hating unintelligent knuckle-dragging morons...Peace, |
Date: 10/10/2003 1:02:00 PM
From Authorid: 32806
The truth is this. IF a Christian god does exist, no one knows if he/she/it will punish non-believers as the bible is full of contradictions and was written by men/women. NOWHERE has GOD (not men) said that he will or won't.   |
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Date: 10/10/2003 1:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 2030
It will probably turn out that the Moonies are the only one's to have it right and we're all screwed. |
Date: 10/10/2003 2:03:00 PM
From Authorid: 62367
According to traditional Christian teaching "unbelievers" are condemned. This goes for Catholic and Protestant. On a personal belief level I would say I do not know. Would God condemn the millions of souls that existed before Judeism or Christianity existed? How about babies and young children who were not baptized. Some things I just leave to God and trust in His love. My mother is a non-Christian Unitarian which means she believes that Jesus was an inspired teacher but not the Son of God. My brother, also another non-Christian Unitarian, said he is agnostic to the point of nearly being an atheist. This is a subject I do think about because I am a Christian of the Roman Catholic persuasion.  |
Date: 10/10/2003 2:35:00 PM
From Authorid: 54987
If the Christian God is true then all believers are going to hell; all adulterers; women who have abortions; women and men who use contraceptives; people who don't go to church; people who socialize with non-christians; people who allow their family to have blood transfusions to save their lives; and all those who do not repent on their deathbed to absolve them of their crimes, no matter how heinious. So there would indeed be very few people in heaven.  |
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Date: 10/10/2003 2:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 54987
Scuze me... I mean non-believers in that first line.. sorry to upset any believers... typing too fast. |
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Date: 10/10/2003 2:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 12835
So his real name was Atheist Knevil ???? |
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Date: 10/10/2003 2:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 40089
Yes the Atheist will be punished if they dont turn to God, and Atheist being arrogant nope Ignorant is the key word for themm , unlearned I have read may replies for ones on here about the Biblical Facts and they are no where near the Truth so one can see how easy it is for them not to believe , God Bless  |
Date: 10/10/2003 3:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 60395
I'm a Catholic, and I asked a priest this before replying- and Most Catholics (99%) believe that if you lead a good like and feel bad when you do bad things you will go to heaven......  |
Date: 10/10/2003 3:34:00 PM
From Authorid: 53052
god and the bible teaches forgiveness.... i am not religous but i do NOT think that athiests are evil.. that is a VERY STRONG statement you have there  |
Date: 10/10/2003 3:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 52140
Im going to give you a Biblical account. This is what I get from Romans 1. Im not flaming anyone or their beliefs. I say that because there are people who will read this that I love on USM and don't wanna hurt them. Here goes: In Romans 1, it talks about how the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all the ungodly. God created man to believe in Him and it is 'unnatural', if you will, for man not to believe in God because "God has put this knowledge in their hearts and from the time the world was created ... [people] can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God." It also says that people know the truth, but some deliberately choose to believe lies and make up what God is for themselves. I can identify. When I was a kid, I wasn't raised in church (Have only gone for the last 3 years), but I ALWAYS believed in God, I was never told about Him. I always praised Him, always vowed I would name my children Jesus and God (that was when I was a kid!!). 1. Gods not invisible. When you know Jesus, you know the father (Jesus said that somewhere). 2. Heck yeah God loves us!! God loves us SO much, He gave His son to die on the cross. He NEVER promised us peace on earth. He NEVER promised a Utopia. We lost that way back in the beginning. You also have to think. Have you ever hurt someone? Maybe not to the extend of abuse or rape, but when you're intent on doing something, nothing can stop you! BUT I can garantee my salvation, that Christ will avenge those who suffer. 3. Yeah, stuff was left out of the Bible, mainly because it didn't fit in with the Bible. BUT all scripture is 'God breathed' (2 Tim. 3:16). 4. Your right to believe what ya want. 5. You're right. Many Christians cant agree, and I bet if the apostle Paul (the man who wrote alot of the new testament and chastized churches for 'falling away') saw most of the stuff going on in the churches, he would probably be so distraut he'd have a heart attack.  |
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Date: 10/10/2003 3:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 52140
TwoSpirit says: *I do know Atheists that are more loving and caring people than some who call tehmselves Christian* I totally agree. Alot of the OLDER atheists are kinder and nicer than some of the 'Christians' I know. I emphasize older because the ones my age are mostly jerks. |
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Date: 10/10/2003 4:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 52140
TwoSpirit says: *I do know Atheists that are more loving and caring people than some who call tehmselves Christian* I totally agree. Alot of the OLDER atheists are kinder and nicer than some of the 'Christians' I know. I emphasize older because the ones my age are mostly jerks. |
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Date: 10/10/2003 4:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 52140
TwoSpirit says: *I do know Atheists that are more loving and caring people than some who call tehmselves Christian* I totally agree. Alot of the OLDER atheists are kinder and nicer than some of the 'Christians' I know. I emphasize older because the ones my age are mostly jerks. |
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Date: 10/10/2003 4:13:00 PM
From Authorid: 52140
ok, everytime I look at this, my computer puts another response to TwoSpirit on there! Could someone delete the extras?!? |
Date: 10/10/2003 5:15:00 PM
From Authorid: 55967
In other words, are you asking "based on the evidence before us today, should God punish us for not believing in Him?"  |
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Date: 10/10/2003 6:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
IS IT A PUNISHMENT TO GIVE YOU WHAT YOU WANT? I have asked you that so many times, and I still don't see you answering. You avoid my questions. Why is that? Are you unable to answer them? God Bless. |
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Date: 10/10/2003 7:31:00 PM
From Authorid: 13297
Deb, again I respond (even though I think you were speaking to Phydeux): that would be true if God allowed you to just *wink out* if you're a non-believer. But doesn't the general God-fearing population believe that non-believers go to hell? |
Date: 10/10/2003 8:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 36967
I am not going to respone to this post. If I did, you know what I would respond. |
Date: 10/10/2003 8:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 22080
i refuse to enter this with guns blazing  |
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Date: 10/10/2003 9:12:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
Emaji, I think "the world" is hell. As in the future. As in having its structure/orbit changed to draw it eventually into the sun. It is not that you'd be going to hell, but that your free will chose this world and this world, IMHO, is going to burn up, thereby giving what I feel is described in the Bible as hellish. I am not saying God allows the non-believer to just *wink out*. I am saying He'll Give you back to the world (and hence the above scenerio) if that is what you want. Is that punishment to you? God Bless. |
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Date: 10/10/2003 9:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
The tremendous popularity of the TV show, Touched by an Angel, is due mostly to this streak of narcissism that exists in all of us to one degree or another. It's I, I, I and me, me, me. And God's lookin' out for Yours Truly, thank you very much, and why shouldn't he? I'm important! This is perhaps one of the ugliest aspects of religions, the constant focus on Self. The lip service paid to "loving your fellow humans" pales into nothingness compared to the major themes: I'm going to heaven. I'm loved by God. I'm going to be forgiven for my sins. I'm going to be watched over by Guardian Angels. I'm so freaking special! This self centered view of the world is odiously apparent whenever people like Jerry Falwell speak about their imminent journey to heaven. They patiently explain why all Jews, Muslims, atheists, Mormons, etc, will burn in hell for all eternity unless they are correctly "washed in the blood of Christ", and the sneers on the faces of these self-righteous explainers are nothing short of vile. If that represents God's grace, you can have it. I don't believe it.  |
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Date: 10/10/2003 11:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 15319
"i refuse to enter this with guns blazing" Speak for yourself Jester *Pulls both guns out, begins firing* In my honest opinion, if God would take an old man, an old man who decided long ago not to believe in God, an old man who would give his last penny to someone in need and willingly leave his own house and sleep on the streets just so someone else may have a home, if God would send a man like that to Hell based SOLELY on his non-belief, then God no more deserves worship that a roll of toilet paper. Jesus Freak, it is PERFECTLY natural NOT to believe in God. I see nothing unnatural about refusing to believe a superstitious story with absolutely no backing or proof whatsoever. Truth be known, I'd have to say Athiests are the sanest ones.  |
Date: 10/10/2003 11:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
I think you could have just asked the question without those examples but anyway... God punishes everyone according to the same criteria and his punishments, I believe, aren't handed out until we die. Atheists aren't any different or less loved by God than anyone else. They're offered the same salvation as everyone else and it's their "free will" that either accepts or denies it. Ultimately, their soul will be recieved or refused by God because of their actions or denial of God, while they were alive.  |
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Date: 10/10/2003 11:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 15319
Well said Shadow |
Date: 10/11/2003 12:01:00 AM
From Authorid: 34487
Just an observation but.....there are better tactics for drawing people to your posts than using offensive titles.  |
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Date: 10/11/2003 12:02:00 AM
From Authorid: 34487
Good deeds don't get a person to Heaven. |
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Date: 10/11/2003 12:05:00 AM
From Authorid: 34487
Also want to add...good point Kelly. |
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Date: 10/11/2003 12:15:00 AM
From Authorid: 34487
TheDarkAngel...."Atheists are the sanest ones??" LOL....that's funny...I guess you know every Christian and every Atheist and you've got the exact totals on whose sane and whose not then right? Okay....then by all means, please give your statistics to us with references. Thanks |
Date: 10/11/2003 3:58:00 AM
From Authorid: 10915
What people need to do is stop lumping EVERY christian and EVERY atheist in the same category. It is rather pathetic to try to justify actions of the fanatical type as an absolute truth to the majority.  |
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Date: 10/11/2003 4:35:00 AM
From Authorid: 10915
But as to the topic of this post, everyone is endowed with free will. What many fail to realize is that you are demonstrating your free will right now as to rather you want to serve God or not. You are doing all you want to do now and finding contentment and satisfaction in it. So why do you even worry or care about what will happen in the future from the standpoint of God? And for all any of us know, our lives may not be affected from the future when God says enough is enough. It may happen by the unforseen occurance of a car accident, being at the wrong place at the wrong time, sickness, etc. If you are happy being who you are, then why even care? For the atheist, who cares what christians think, right? You are presently happy being who you are right now. For christians, big deal that atheist don't believe. You are doing what you feel is right in the eyes of God by preaching his word, rather people accept it or not. Just like You Choose said, salvation is extended to everyone and it is up to the individual to accept it or not. And if you do, great and if you don't, great. All we can do is live our lives each day. For myself, I will live my life for God, not man. |
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Date: 10/11/2003 5:04:00 AM
From Authorid: 10915
Let's see it this way. Christians, has it ever occurred to you that the reason for why adamant non-believers do not want to accept is because, the spiritual realm is not meant for them to comprehend? Atheist, has it ever occurred to you that no matter how convincing evolution and human philosophy is, that to those who have truely tasted and experienced the magnificent splendor and beauty of God, that they can not accept it? The reason why none of us can not making a convincing argument to each other is because it is not meant to be. IMHO |
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Date: 10/11/2003 5:42:00 AM
From Authorid: 10915
Forgive typos. lol |
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Date: 10/11/2003 6:07:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
Even if God somehow showed himself, does that mean everyone should worship him because he exists? Evil people exist, does everyone follow them? no, some know what they do is wrong. I'll live for myself over a sadistic God. |
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Date: 10/11/2003 6:19:00 AM
From Authorid: 10915
No. Even if he did show himself, his presence alone is not enough for why you should worship him and it is not his presence for why he wants your worship either. |
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Date: 10/11/2003 6:20:00 AM
From Authorid: 10915
But what I like to know is what is the wrong that you keep saying that he does? |
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Date: 10/11/2003 7:18:00 AM
From Authorid: 13297
So it would be safe to say then Deb that you believe in reincarnation? After your death here coming back to the world would be just that. Or if you're saying your spirit stays here then I disagree that is really the "fire and brimstone" hell and I also don't believe that the spirit feels sensory pain like the body. As for the sun theory - that would be an instantaneous end to the body but the sun would not destory the spirit. I guess I need more clarification to see where you are going with that. As it stands now, no I don't think it is punishment as it is not eternal damnation as I see it or as the bible describes it for that matter. |
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Date: 10/11/2003 7:46:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
Emaij (sorry can't quite get the name right), you are understanding me to an extent. I apologize for not going further into this right now due to time constrainst, but I will be back later. One more thought: Are you basing your ideas of hell as described in the Bible on what the Bible says or what has been taught to you that the Bible says by a religion? God Bless. |
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Date: 10/11/2003 7:54:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
What didn't he do? Curse every living creature with death, and suffering. All humans are destined to hell, unless they follow his rules. Then later kill his own son to save us from what he DID! How thoughtful of him. |
Date: 10/11/2003 9:59:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
Looking at it from a Atheist point of view, how can one be punished from something that does not exsist. Looking at it from a christian point of view, God does not punish for either believing in Him or not believeing in him. BEFORE man there was God and of course the other force, which yes God created him too, but where the other force has free will as well as the rest of us, he choose to rebel, God placed him on earth, kicked him out of heaven so all of earth belong now to this other force. So all born on this earth because by free will adam and eve ate from the tree, all born are born under the rule of this other power, in times past the people didn't have a choice to make as rather they wanted to have thier spirits stay with the other power when they died or go with God. BUT God made a way, spiritually, so they could have a choice of where they want to go. YES, he tells in his word what happens under the rule of this other power, then says CHOOSE ME. OR return to ME. So its our choice. The point is were all already PUNISHED, ** and yes that is a whole other post** but God gave the way out from that punishment.  |
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Date: 10/11/2003 10:13:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
ROLFLMAO@ BCAR AND ST. PETE. Athesist Knevil, lol lol lol. GIRLIE::"Atheist, has it ever occurred to you that no matter how convincing evolution and human philosophy is, that to those who have truely tasted and experienced the magnificent splendor and beauty of God, that they can not accept it? "" Very well said, as there is a difference between religion, bible, preachers, and TASTING the goodness of God. That is relationship. |
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Date: 10/11/2003 10:14:00 AM
From Authorid: 1225
Did BCAR just agree with me back there? Someone call the Devil and ask for a weather report! |
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Date: 10/11/2003 10:27:00 AM
From Authorid: 10915
"What didn't he do? Curse every living creature with death, and suffering. All humans are destined to hell, unless they follow his rules. Then later kill his own son to save us from what he DID! How thoughtful of him." Hmmm...and has it ever occurred to you that humans are responsible for their own actions that some of their own irresponsibility for their actions take on "warranted" consequences? |
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Date: 10/11/2003 10:52:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
Yes you're right humans are responsible for their OWN actions, not someone elses, their own. Although God doesn't seem to think so, the Bible makes clear he punishes you for things you haven't done. |
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Date: 10/11/2003 12:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 10915
But exactly who did he punish for no reason? And where in the bible did he punish someone for no reason? |
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Date: 10/11/2003 7:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
God is not "SADISTIC" man is. I can't understand why that's so hard for some to comprehend. |
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Date: 10/11/2003 8:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
RodTod...what gives you the idea that God cursed us with anything? God gave us just what we needed and wanted...."FREE WILL." This means, you have the ability to make your owns decisions and experience the consequences of them. It's SO funny how SO many people want God to give them their "cake and eat it too." I mean really....so God would only be fair and kind in your opinion, if he allowed humans to do what they wanted regardless of how disgusting and terrible, deny him as their creator and still have a ticket through the Pearly Gates??? Don't you see how rediculously hypocritical that thought process is? HE CREATED us, he gave us everything we need to live life. He loved us so much he sacrificed his own son to pay for what evils WE will do? Wow, yah...sounds like a terrible God to me, LOL. If you think that's the only way God could be "non-sadistic" than you may want to put yourself in the shoes of "the creator of all" as much as humanly possible...and see how you'd feel if treated this way. RESPECT and faith, that's what it's about. He still allows us to sin, even though it hurts him because he knows we will. All he asks of us to is ask HIS FORGIVENESS and accept Jesus as our savior. But that's too much of him to ask? The arrogance in those that think this way... is flaiming. I've argued this time and time again and for the life of me, I don't understand why this concept is so hard to comprehend. It's similar to how a child should treat their parents since generally, respect is deserved. The difference is that God is perfect and parents aren't therefore, respect is ALWAYS deserved toward him. God ALONE, created every living thing in this universe. He gave all things what they need to sustain themself. He gave them the ability to make choices and allows them to treat him worse than their worst enemy. I'm sorry but there is absolutely nothing sadistic, cruel, mean or unloving about a God that does all that and more. Satan is the king of this Earth, that's why we have evil and that's why terrible things happen. God doesn't always intervene since lessons do need to be learned and our because our Free will comes into play. People CONSTANTLY blame God for what man does and what man causes. It's just wrong. |
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Date: 10/11/2003 11:11:00 PM
From Authorid: 15319
You Choose, your jumping the gun (no surprise). I say Athiests are the sanest ones because, instead of going on blind faith (which is ALL Christianity, Islam, Wicca, etc) has, Athiests perfer to go on solid concrete good old FACT. THAT makes them saner in my opinion. |
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Date: 10/12/2003 2:36:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
I cant understand why you people can't read Genesis. Yes God did curse every living thing for something they DID NOT DO! Why try and tell me he didn't when he even says he did? God is flawed, he fails fair and justice, he is far from perfect. Children shouldn't be made to respect abusive parents, what makes you think they should? How do you find love in torment and blood sacrifices? |
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Date: 10/12/2003 5:45:00 AM
From Authorid: 52140
TDA, you are Wiccan, are you saying your converting to Atheism? |
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Date: 10/12/2003 7:04:00 AM
From Authorid: 10915
Well, if I can remember correctly in the account of Genesis, Adam and Eve eat from the forbidden tree, thus cursing themselves and their descendents. God didn't curse them. They cursed THEMSELVES!!! Re-read Genesis again for a more accurate account of who really cursed mankind. God told them the consequences, they disobeyed, they got what they deserved. Unfortunately, Adam and Eve wasn't bright enough to see that their actions would cause misery to all of mankind and the world in general. Again, humans are responsible for their own actions as was mentioned earlier. Children respect abusive parents? I would think that if someone knew that an adult or adults were abusing their kids that either they and/or the abused child themselves would call the proper authorities. Yes, kids are to respect their parents, but a scripture also says that parents shouldn't be exasperating their kids also. I would think anything that would cause the child discouragement and pain, like abuse, would fall in that category. God looks out for the best interest in every one. Blood sacrifices back during the biblical times were to atone for sins. They also foreshadowed the greatest sacrifice to benefit mankind. That of Jesus Christ who was to give his life for all mankind. Like the scriptures said, eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, etc. Adam, being perfect, lost perfection for us. Jesus, being perfect, is the means of gaining it back. Sorry, you are having a hard time comprehending it for your hatred of God. But hey, he said there will be some that will not serve him. Sad as it is, but true. |
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Date: 10/12/2003 7:27:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
Genesis 3:16 "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." I'll say it again God cursed them. Maybe you have a different definition of responsiblity, responsiblity is about your actions not someone elses as you are trying to have people believe. |
Date: 10/12/2003 7:40:00 AM
From Authorid: 160
Question? And I honestly do not know anything about atheisim other than the obvious so I hope this does not get me into trouble but.... What hope does a person have that has no belief in a creator? Does an atheist live and expect that when they die it is all over... I am only curious and not inteding to stir up a hornets nest.  |
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Date: 10/12/2003 7:49:00 AM
From Authorid: 10915
Ugh, I didn't mean to have all that included in my comment. lol |
Date: 10/12/2003 8:19:00 AM
From Authorid: 48809
No, I do not believe that God will punish anyone for being an Atheist... we punish ourselves by not obeying God's Natural laws and we do this everyday. If someone is a good caring person and helps to make life easier for those whom he meets along the earthly path, and does the best he can do for everyone... then he is sure to make it to a wonderful part of heaven... because this is why we are here... to learn and to help others! When we serve those who are in need , we serve God and He is not impressed by our own religious beliefs.  |
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Date: 10/12/2003 8:33:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
"Yes, they were cursed, but it was AFTER they performed their disobedient act of eating the forbidden fruit. They got what they deserved." - Billions of people and creatures deserved to die for what 2 people did? What logic and morality. "So no, it is not God who cursed people for nothing." - Again this doesn't hold, it was Adam and Eve that preformed the sin, so God DID curse people for nothing. "People curse themselves for their own actions and much like what Adam and Eve tried to do, shift the blame on others rather themselves, people of today (some right here at our very own USM) are doing no different. Rather than accept accountability for their own actions, they want to shift the blame on someone else." - I notice you keep saying it was the peoples own actions, when you're talking about an event that infact they didn't do. |
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Date: 10/12/2003 10:03:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
Emaji, I differentiate between the soul and the spirit. In my understanding, the soul is the emotional center which I prefer to just refer to as heart (not to be confused with the beating organ). The spirit is the intelligence center which I usually refer to as mind. The soul is soley from God. We feel because God breathed His Presence (a consciousness) into man at the beginning of "man"kind (not to be confused with the beginning of the earth since it is my belief that, as this world evolved from the momentum of Our Creator, other huminoid beings were existing during various time periods prior to God Breathing His Presence INTO who we call Adam). All of His Creatures prior to that also had some intelligence (spirit) -- a conscienceness -- an ability to think to the extent of being able to survive. So what happened to the huminoids that were on this earth to give them this advanced intelligence (spirit)? Firstborn addresses this in her comments: The spirit/mind/way of thinking of Lucifer. (It is here where I would suggest that "the missing link" as referred to in the evolutionary process be re-examined so that the possibility and plausibility of the fallen angels interacting with those aforementioned huminoids be given some thought. So here we are at this stage in time with a soul as given by God, and a spirit as interfaced with both God and what people commonly refer to as "Satan", or an adversarial way of thinking to God. This diachotomy is our minds gives rise to us humans THINKING we know better than God or even that God does not exist. The mind/spirit, being such a powerful thing, can trump your heart/soul in this life. But, you may be asking, if the soul is soley From God, how can it be trumped? Well, in my belief IT CAN'T. When your physical body dies, your soul, and everyone else's, as they are all a part of God, RETURN TO GOD. It is your spirit, though, that will give your soul a remembrance of being a human being on this earth. If your spirit is not in alignment with your soul at the time of your death, the soul does go back to God, but not with any remembrance, i.e., your spirit is not a part of God's Kingdom. So it is here that you are asking what happens to those spirits? Well, this is where I think the "spirit world" comes into play in that angels/ghosts/demons are the spirits of all those people that have lived. Until Judgment Day arrives, these spirits are suspended in the "spirit world" (and I make no pretense of knowing anything about any "spiritual advancement" within the spirit world, as, while I will acknowledge the existence of it, I also believe that it is not to be delved into by us as humans). O.K. so now I have made the assertion above, that spirits of those that do not believe in God when they die (and I will add here, the spirits of those that may believe in God, but whose faith -- belief, love, and obedience -- may be lacking, and their works -- physical doings -- here on earth could not counter that lack in faith, have their spirits returned to this world because that is what those spirits wanted, i.e., the mentality that this world is all there is. I don't believe that this (spirits being returned to earth) will occur UNTIL after we (humankind) experience Judgement Day. In my understanding of what that is, it is when "Christ" returns to judge the living and the dead and takes with him (to God's Kingdom) those who are alive and have lived God's Will for them in ALL aspects of FAITH (belief, love, and OBEDIENCE). That is what people refer to as the "rapture"; in other words there will be people who go to God's Kingdom at this point without having to experience a physical death, ALONG WITH those spirits (dead people) who fit this criteria. It is my understanding that the Bible numbers these people/spirits, and that number is relatively (in light of ALL the people that are alive and that have lived) small. Those spirits (dead people) that are Judged as worthy based on their belief and their works also get to God's Kingdom at this point. Now, after this rapturous (extremely delightful experience, there still will be living people here on this earth (He Has Already Told me that I will be one of them, because although I know I get to witness and "participate" in this rapturous event, I don't get to "go", and we all need to understand at that point, that when we die, both our belief in God and our WORKS will earn us a place in His Kingdom. O.K. Everyone still with me here? At the point of the rapture being over, there will be some spirits (dead people) not going to His Kingdom, and there will be humans who eventually die without the requisite faith and works that do not go to His Kingdom. THIS IS WHERE I SAY THESE SPIRITS GET WHAT THEY LIVED/BELIEVED/WANTED: This earth that eventually (though not for a thousand years, a number of those years to be extremely idyllic as the Bible tells us) burns into the sun, i.e., that process being "hell". So, Emaji has asked whether those spirits going to "hell" have some physical properties, and if so wouldn't that mean that I believe in reincarnation. What I believe is commonly referred to as "reincarnation" is what should actually be termed "incarnation" in that people who have experience of a past life do not have the same exact soul as a person who has died, but may have part of other people's (now dead) soul, as distributed by God, in them that they are able to relate to. In other words, I don't believe that "reincarnation" as the term is commonly used relates to the spirit/mind at all. Now while portions of God's Soul can be embodied in our physical bodies (incarnated), our spirits remain intact. So what I believe Emaji to be asking is if our spirits are then reincarnated (given a new body). And it is here where I will make a statment on religion (man's ATTEMPT to explain/understand God): I don't think any religion has the complete answer, ^^^ obviously ^^^, but I do believe most religions have some sort of truth to them, but that when the Bible speaks of "false religions" it is referring to those whose "object" of worship is false, i.e., a diety or dieties that is not God. I don't say this to p.o. anybody, I say it to be able to give these explanations. In my understanding of the Hindu religion, there is the belief that "reincarnation" can occur with the human "soul" embodying itself into animals. This is what I believe: That at this point we are talking about, the human spirit/mind that has not been deemed worthy of God's Kingdom gets embodies into the animal that best exemplified that person's actions on earth and that those animals live on this earth until and it burns WITH THE KNOWLEDGE that, had they just not been so strong-minded about themselves being such "hot****" they wouldn't be experiencing what I refer to as "hell". What animal does your life exemplify? Do you just stand around and chew on your cud all day like a cow? Do you slither around on your belly, flicking your tongue at anything that moves like a snake? Do you have such a stubborn streak that you exemplify a jackass? Hey, it's Sunday. What? You didn't expect a sermon? God Bless. |
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Date: 10/12/2003 10:05:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
ROTFLMAO. Yeah, Girlie, and by your decision to use that L O N G citation you cursed this post into being so wide! God Bless. |
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Date: 10/12/2003 10:11:00 AM
From Authorid: 10915
LOL@Deb. |
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Date: 10/12/2003 10:17:00 AM
From Authorid: 10915
Oh Rodtod this is God PUHLEEZE!!!! I guess it is easier for you to try to blame God for all the cruelty that is going on in this planet rather than to look at your own actions and that of humans. I feel that people who try to blame God on the injustices of the world do it so that can get out of personal accountability for their actions and to continue giving excuses for why service to God is vain. Just continue living their lives doing as they please. If I screw up, I screw up. Not God, not my neighbor, not my cat, etc. Me and me only! And I will continue to keep saying it because it is TRUTH!!! |
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Date: 10/12/2003 10:27:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
I take responsiblity for my own actions, but by the Bible I'm guilty of things I have not done! |
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Date: 10/12/2003 11:51:00 AM
From Authorid: 34487
TheDarkAngel... I didn't jump to conclusions... I went of what you said. So apparently, you didn't explain what you said appropriately by giving that one-liner statement which holds NO water. You're entitled to your opinion but to make a blanket statement like that is unfounded. In my opinion "blind faith" isn't from putting one's faith in God but in that of science and this world. |
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Date: 10/12/2003 11:57:00 AM
From Authorid: 34487
Now that the replies on this post are stretched out...it's annoying when reviewing replies. I did look for your previous comment TheDarkAngel....where you stated that Atheists are the sanests ones. Apparently, someone else disagrees with me or found it offensive also, since it was deleted. Interesting. |
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Date: 10/12/2003 11:59:00 AM
From Authorid: 10915
Yes folks, blame me for the stretching of the post. If an admin is present, is it possible to delete my comment quoting Genesis? Maybe that will help. |
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Date: 10/12/2003 12:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
RodTod... I NEVER said children should respect abusive parents....don't know where you got that from. I said children in general, should respect their parents. I also TOTALLY disagree with your views on God having any negative intentions on us, that's so far from the truth. How do I find love through torment? God saves me from it that's how. Satan is the creator of torment and sacrifice not God. It is sometimes necessary to have bad things happen though, how else would we learn. If this world was perfect, why be here? To just take up space and breath up the air? That seems pretty pointless. We are here for the learning and growth of our soul. |
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Date: 10/12/2003 12:04:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Girlie, I just wanted you to know I meant no offense with reference to my above comment about the replies being stretched. I was just explaining to RodTod that I had trouble finding his prior comment because of it. |
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Date: 10/12/2003 12:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Girlie, thanks for explaining the reference to Adam and Even being cursed...in Genesis. |
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Date: 10/12/2003 12:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
^^^^typo.... "Adam and EVE" meant for the above. |
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Date: 10/12/2003 12:20:00 PM
From Authorid: 10915
You're welcome. I know. No offense taken. I hate it when it stretches like that too. Just would never thought I would be the culprit. lol |
Date: 10/12/2003 12:36:00 PM
From Authorid: 62060
I haven't read all the replies on this post, so apologies if I'm repeating anything. I have to agree with the first few replies - judgement by deeds not beliefs is the most important thing. As for what will really happen? I dont think anyone living can lay claim to know.  |
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Date: 10/12/2003 4:40:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
I dont know why this post is drawn clear over the screen and then some, perhaps the author needs to repost it so it can reformat, as Im' not even going to try and read this now. |
Date: 10/12/2003 5:38:00 PM
From Authorid: 4883
" I see only with deep regret that God punishes so many of his children for their numerous stupidities, for which only He himself can be held responsible; in my opinion, only His nonexistence could excuse Him." (Albert Einstein, January 2, 1915 )  |
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Date: 10/12/2003 7:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Albert must have said that quote, on one of those days he was known to forget to wear all his clothes. Surprisingly stupid words from such an amazing genius. |
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Date: 10/12/2003 7:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 13297
I have just skimmed your reply Deb - I will have to go back and read it more carefully with time to really mull it over (it is rather lengthy lol) but after skimming it I would have to say that I'm not sure what animal type I am - I'm sure a lot are applicable - especially the stubborn jackass part LOL. And in answer to your other question: my ideas regarding hell as espoused here are in reference to the juxtaposition of what I learned during the time I spent in church as a youth, my own readings of the bible and subsequently my own interpretations of those readings. My own belief now vary from those teachings / interpretations. And as for the name it's *eimaj* George put the majic in it... cheers, |
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Date: 10/12/2003 7:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 13297
Actually you choose, those are brilliant words when you actually assess them at a deeper level. And most times he didn't forget his clothes - he chose not to wear them (especially socks) because he didn't like them - and he didn't have to. The man to date was never wrong - even the thing he apologized for being wrong about has been proven to be correct. Considering that, I would say that alone would lend enough credence to him that his words should be considered without judgement, close-mindedness or automatic bias. cheers, |
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Date: 10/12/2003 9:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 4883
"People flatter me so long as I don't get in their way. Otherwise they immediately turn to abuse and calumny in defense of their interests..." (Albert Einstein, 1934) |
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Date: 10/12/2003 9:21:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
The major problem in these discussions lies in the hair-splitting that goes on about whether or not an atheist simply does not acknowledge a god, or goes further and actually says there is no God. Atheists cannot make this claim. However, when we atheists emphatically state that we do not believe in a god we will sometimes say, "Oh, bull! There is no God!" But what we're talking about are the human creations such as Jupiter, Thor, Jehovah, Krishna, Jesus, Allah and so on, the gods we've been spoon fed since childhood but still find thoroughly unconvincing. So we lump them all together and pronounce them all nonexistent, and here is where the confusion comes in. When we claim nonexistence for a god we mean OF THOSE SO FAR OFFERED AS CANDIDATES. No one can claim a God absolutely does not exist unless he can claim infinite knowledge of the universe. I have never heard any atheist make this assertion. In fact, if any atheist reading this can make the certain claim that no God does or could exist, and can back it up, I would like to hear about it. It would be fun to meet someone who possesses infinite knowledge of the universe. This is not hyperbole. I mean it. Without infinite knowledge of the universe you cannot possibly know if there is a God or not. And, if you're planning to send just such a "proof" you must include exact knowledge of how the universe began and how or if it will end. Without that explanation your "proof" will prove nothing. Even my hero, the late Carl Sagan, spoke of atheism as a position that couldn't be justified because no one can provide any "compelling evidence," as he put it, that a god does not exist. Neither I nor any atheists I know make the claim of having "compelling evidence against the existence of God." Nor are we required to have such evidence! The burden of proof lies squarely with those who claim knowledge of the existence of God. |
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Date: 10/12/2003 9:58:00 PM
From Authorid: 4883
Very well said SG, especially the last couple of lines... Carl Sagan did more to advance the publics understanding of astronomy than any of his contemporaries. As an astronomer myself I will miss his contributions to the science...While I could take exception to the universe (time-space) being infinite...If it was indeed created, that in its self implies an exclusivity of which we may hypothesize, but is beyond and will remain beyond humankinds ability to define or experience...Given our present understanding, which is limited of course to the boundaries imposed by the human condition, I find I must concur... ~ Jay ~ |
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Date: 10/12/2003 10:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 4883
" The professor never wears socks. Even when he was invited by Mr. Roosevelt to the White House he didn't wear socks..." ..( Helen Dukas... Professor Einstein's secretary and trustee of his archives) |
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Date: 10/12/2003 10:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 4883
Its quite obvious that Professor Einstein didn't "forget" to wear clothing... He chose not to wear socks... As far as his appearance it to him was of little importance .... to quote " If I were to start taking care of my grooming, I would no longer be my own self...." and to further quote..." It would be a sad situation if the wrapper were better than the meat wrapped inside it" ( Albert Einstein as recalled by the New York Times regarding his notorious disregard for his outward appearance... April 19th 1955)......As far as stupid words from an admittedly amazing genius...I hardly think so, but then who's insight has proven to be the better and had and continues to have a profound effect on human kind ,,, yours or his... Hmmmm ... boy that's a tough one... Well I think I will take a chance and go with Albert... Socks or not... |
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Date: 10/12/2003 10:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 4883
Phydeux, my apologies for not only not staying on the subject of your debate but not even being on theme to start with... ~ Jay ~ |
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Date: 10/13/2003 3:08:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
"RodTod... I NEVER said children should respect abusive parents....don't know where you got that from." - God falls into the abusive parent category. "I also TOTALLY disagree with your views on God having any negative intentions on us, that's so far from the truth. How do I find love through torment? God saves me from it that's how. Satan is the creator of torment and sacrifice not God." - You just basically said most the Bible is wrong, not only you contradicted Genesis but other parts of the Bible which the sacifices are for God. "It is sometimes necessary to have bad things happen though, how else would we learn." - Unbelieveable, you're completely ignoring Genesis. You clearly have difficulty seperating you're own actions from someone elses. |
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Date: 10/13/2003 8:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 15319
"TDA, you are Wiccan, are you saying your converting to Atheism?" Yes Alisha, I surely am. And tonight, Jesus and Allah are coming over. We're going to get up with Satan and Buddah and have a Dance Dance Revolution party. |
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Date: 10/13/2003 11:31:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
eimaj....he was brilliant but he wasn't God I stand by my opinion on that quote and I feel it's correct. You're entitled to yours also but your opinion is no more correct than mine. As for my view being "close-minded and bias," that too is ONLY your opinion. So I hold as much credence to that, as I did to that quote. Albert was a genius but even geniuses make mistakes and in my opinion, that quote represents a VERY big one on his part. |
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Date: 10/13/2003 11:33:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Now that quote about flattery toward Albert is true....but doesn't apply to how I responded to the first one. |
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Date: 10/13/2003 11:38:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
SirPhae....no offense but I used that statement about his forgetfulness as an example that he too was imperfect. I don't think we need to have proof that he intentionally didn't wear certain articles of clothing. |
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Date: 10/13/2003 11:41:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
RodTod... I never said a word about any part of the Bible, Genesis to be specific. You're up some river in a boat without your paddles here. I don't think I need to even respond to that argument as it makes no sense. |
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Date: 10/14/2003 3:34:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
You Choose, I dont think you need to respond either, until you atleast read Genesis, obviously that is what I'm talking about. |
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Date: 10/14/2003 4:09:00 AM
From Authorid: 47296
When the topic goes to religion, it is always debated who is right and who is wrong. There is no right or wrong, only what we each believe. Of course, most will disagree with that. The way I see it, the discussion of religion has become one of control. Everyone wishes to change others to their views on religion, which is bsically trying to control the thoughts of others. One day people will learn, there is only one person they can control, and that is themselves. When they try to control others, then they obviously have problems with their own control. |
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Date: 10/14/2003 6:30:00 AM
From Authorid: 13297
You choose, here is how it breaks down: he was brilliant but he wasn't God I stand by my opinion on that quote and I feel it's correct. **** He wasn't God but to date he has been the most correct on the innerworkings of the universe. He is most likely the only person since Jesus to have that kind of insight. As far as the Human race is concerned and seeing the big picture - he was at the forefront.**** You're entitled to yours also but your opinion is no more correct than mine. As for my view being "close-minded and bias," that too is ONLY your opinion. **** You are closed-minded and biased and that is more than opinion. I can go through many of your comments on religious posts and debates and I can show you where you disagreed vehemently with almost anything that didn't have a Christian opinion or that didn't believe as you believe. The worst is that you can't just disagree you have to call names. I at least lend an ear to both sides and look at it objectively which means my opinion is at least less likely to be partial to one side or the other initally - it is formed after careful consideration. I also concede when I am wrong which I've yet to see you do.**** So I hold as much credence to that, as I did to that quote. **** Credence to what - my opinion? Ouch that hurts - I'm sorry worried about YOU agreeing with me. LOL **** Albert was a genius but even geniuses make mistakes and in my opinion, that quote represents a VERY big one on his part **** Not one of his scientific postulates have yet to be proven wrong. The man was a genius - most likely the smartest man to ever live on the planet. This may offend you but it is worth saying: It is rather pompous of someone such as yourself who most likely has an IQ of under 140 to call an admitted genius "suprisingly stupid". Even on his worst day he could run mental circles around you on your best. As it has been said, if I had to put my bets on your or Albert, my money would be on Albert. |
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Date: 10/14/2003 6:53:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
Way to go, Jamie! ^^^ **remembers one time when a christian on here referred to the Great Thomas Paine a "stupid drunk"** |
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Date: 10/14/2003 9:22:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
BTW, about Albert Einstein's quote, I TOTALLY agree with him. Give that a thought, all of you -- meaning, reread Sir Phae's comment and think about what this genius IS saying. YES, everything that happens IS in God's Hands. And, YES, the only thing that could not hold God responsible is His nonexistence. God Tells us to put EVERYTHING into His Hands. HE DOES ACCEPT THE RESPONSIBILITIES OF OUR STUPIDITIES. Isn't all He Asking of us is to ACKNOWLEDGE RESPONSIBILITY ALSO? How ironic the subject of "punishment" comes up again here. God HAS NEVER PROMISED that THIS LIFE here on earth was not going to be fraught with suffering and pain. It is what happens AFTER THIS LIFE wherein the "punishment" factor kicks in. And I ask once again: Is it a punishment for you to get what you believe in, want, or, yeah, I'll include this time, DESERVE? God Bless. |
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Date: 10/14/2003 9:57:00 AM
From Authorid: 13297
Deb I actually agree with you but not exactly as you put it. I think if you believe in nothing you go to nothing and if you believe in something you go there. Not because I think God gives it to you that way directly but because I think (and quantum mechanics seems to prove) that it is possible for us to create and shape our own realities. Even Jesus said if you have the faith of a mustard seed you can move a mountain. But again it is sheer belief and doesn't account for much imperically (i.e. I can't prove it and I don't want to or need to). I think that attitude and belief has a lot to do with the outcome of one's life and what happens to him or here in the next. The kicker of it is the only way to know is to die and I'm not ready for that yet. |
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Date: 10/14/2003 10:09:00 AM
From Authorid: 30742
"will God punish an Atheist" " And this is what God has testified: He has given us eternal life, and this life is in His son. So whoever does not have His son does not have life." 1 John 5:11-12 "Christians can't even agree amongst themselves what the Bible says or means". Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly in the last days there will be many false teachers , they pretend to be religious, but are false and speak not from the spirit of God, but from demons.... 1Tim 4:1-2 The questions you pose here, are all in the book. The Bible Back to the main question , if there is a God, will he punish a atheist? It is clear that if you have been told of Christ and the way of salvation and have rejected God's grace, you will not enter "eternal life". May you find answers if you are searching . " For as death and suffering came through one man , Adam, those in Christ will be made alive and will recieve eternal rewards"... Romans 5 " whoever believes and hear my words will have eternal life and will not be condemed, he has crossed over from death to life.. Eternal punishment awaits those who refuse the gift of salvation through Christ. Matt 25:46, Rev22  2, Rev 21 ...If a building were on fire and you wanted to go in, I would warn you, because I care, if you refuse God's gift of Salvation, I warn you, you will not inherit paradise, free of suffering. Please don't chose to go to a place of suffering. I don't want you to go, neither does God, thats why he sent Jesus, to bring us eterity with God. " He will wipe away our tears, there will be no more death or suffering, or crying or pain, a new earth, the old order of things will pass away.. Death and suffering will be no more... Rev 21:4 Blessings to you author...  |
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Date: 10/14/2003 11:31:00 AM
From Authorid: 54987
I saw someone wearing a t-shirt that said, "If there are no cigars in heaven, I will not go." I heaven is gonna be populated by fundamentalist christians... I wouldn't want to go. |
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Date: 10/14/2003 12:20:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13974
I do like how Deb says here that it IS ALL in God’s hands. Yet she tried to say in the free will debate we were punished for OUR decisions. Hmmmm.... I think you didn't understand what Dr. Einstein said. And here since it seems to have disappeared... my response to Deb on the question Deb said I was avoiding. "Is it a punishment for you to get what you believe in, want" It depends on Gods intentions, was he trying to punish the person. Still this is irrelevant, because I don't believe I ever saw anywhere in the scriptures that Gods judgment would be that we get in death what we believed in life, and while the scriptures are all we have to go on, I must have missed it somewhere. Or, I ask again Deb, as I did in another debate, do you just make this stuff up as you go along? |
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Date: 10/14/2003 12:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 13297
Phydeux you do have a point. The Bible speaks of a fire and brimstone hell and a lake of burning sulfur - nothing of getting to simply not exist as many believe happens to them. I don't believe in the *wink out* theory myself. |
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Date: 10/14/2003 1:36:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
No, I was not trying to say anything of the kind in that debate (all this post jumping gets things a little difused and with them perhaps your attention to detail? That's why on one of your earlier posts, I suggested one post that takes each of these issues one at a time. What I am saying with free will is that God is not going to make you believe in Him, EVEN THOUGH HE COULD. That is the only thing about free will that you get to choose: wether to believe in Him or not. And as Albert has said, (duh, yes I get what he is saying as I agreed with it and you even came here and said you liked the fact that I did is that unless you don't believe in him, then you need to put all our stupid things we do onto Him (which I exactly what I said in the other post). And then Shadow Ghost comes in here and says that no one can truly say that He does not exist. WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE YOU? STILL with the choice not to believe in Him, and the "afterlife" of that CHOICE! As I described hell as in the earth burning up, I still do not see where that differs from the scripture that have been quoted? Perhaps someone can tell me what exactly this world would smell like (sulphur?) and whether or not they'd be burning lakes of fire as it started orbiting closer and closer to the sun. (Hey, perhaps science can tell us God Bless. |
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Date: 10/14/2003 2:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 30742
"Because I don't believe I ever saw anywhere in the scriptures that Gods judgment would be that we get in death what we believed in life, and while the scriptures are all we have to go on, I must have missed it somewhere". "I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God's throne, And the books were opened including the book of life. And the dead were judged according to the things written in the books, according to what they had done. They were all judged according to their deeds. And death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death- the lake of fire. AND anyone whose name waas not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.." Rev20:12-15. No one has to go there, sometimes I don't listen to warnings given to me, I have learned the hard way...Adam and eve learned the hard way, when God told them not to eat from the tree of knowledge, they did not listen, but learned the hard way , sin and death entered the world, now we have suffering, death and disease. God didn't want us to choose to disobey, but he also, did not create robots, he wanted us to choose. So, in our choice, we reap the consquences. I know I have made bad choices and have reaped from them, I learned the hard way. but don't learn the hard way, when you don't have to go to the eternal place of suffering, at least here on earth it is temporay, God gave us a way out. Through Christ.. The sin of one man , Adam, caused death to rule over us, but all who recieve God's wonderful , gracious gift of righteousness will live in triumph over sin and death,through this one man, Jesus Christ.... Romans 5:17 Your choice, reject or accept. Rejection will be be forefiting the gift of paradise. Unless you are born again, you can not enter the Kingdom of God.. John 3:3 |
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Date: 10/14/2003 2:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 30742
Jesus said in the Gosple of John 12:48 " All who reject me and my message will be judged at the day of judement by the turth I have spoken." |
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Date: 10/14/2003 3:33:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
QUOTE (someone posted this on another post:>>>>>Rv1: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." EXCUSE ME, but I am NOT "abominable, a murderer or a whore monger; I am NOT a sorcerer or idolator or liar! I SIMPLY CANNOT BELIEVE such a preposterous story that (based upon all the evidence) is a mythical fable....and for THIS inability to accept and or believe, You claim this god wishes me to burn in eternal hell!?? Christians are forever fond of saying that "Atheists don't WANT to believe, and they CHOOSE not to believe". EXCUSE ME! Why would atheists NOT "Want" to believe in a heaven with streets of gold, flowing with milk and honey, and where there everyone gets to be reunited with their loved ones??? KEY word: "WANT". But you can't believe in something just BECAUSE you WANT to. If you think you can, then why can't you believe in The Big Invisible Pink Unicorn? Ah, I see, cuz I haven't given you sufficient REASON to believe? Because you don't WANT to? Well, Gosh dang it; believe it anyway!; because if you don't, you're gonna be sorry now, you watch and see! The wrath of The Invisible Pink Unicorn is not pretty. |
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Date: 10/14/2003 8:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
RodTod....Don't worry, I won't respond to you any longer, I'm done beating my head on the floor in frustration. Once again, good luck to you. |
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Date: 10/14/2003 9:00:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
emajic....Oh, so now you know everything about me huh? You say I "name call," where have I done that? By all means show me where I out-right called someone a name and didn't refer to a comment, action or reply to one of their rude comments. As for my disagreeing with anything that doesn't have a Christian opinion... I guess I should just start agreeing with everything that I don't believe or know to be the truth for me. Wow, wouldn't that be handy for you and so many others that refuse to admit their animosity toward Christians and their beliefs. Many of your comments to me have been out of line. We are all human here and I can't count how many times I've apologized to someone in either profile or on a post because I feel I may have offended them. YOU ARE ASSUMING a lot about me and know absolutely nothing when it all comes down to it. I don't know you as a person, I know you as a "tag" on USM just as you do me. I don't judge you or anyone else here for that matter. You did judge me though, by continuing to say that I am bias and close-minded. Your argument and your very weak attempt to validate that, holds no water. I GUARANTEE that everyone has said things in a heated discussion that were taken the wrong way by someone. You are the one pointing fingers here and giving subtle insults. Perhaps, you need to begin to be honest with yourself about your attitude before you start rattling off assumptions about others. Good luck to you. |
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Date: 10/14/2003 9:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
eimaj....Also wanted to mention that your comments about my IQ are very RUDE and SHALLOW. I can't believe you had the audacity to say something so crude. By mentioning that, you're insinuating that you are some genius yourself? That is what's pompus and arrogant in my opinion. I never said Albert was ignorant or that he wasn't a genius, I even called him "brilliant." Just because he said something, doesn't prove it to be the true though. Those quotes are opinions of his in areas where he nor anyone else, can provide solid proof either way. NO HUMAN says or does everything perfectly all of the time. Just because someone disagree with one of his quotes, doesn't mean that they're wrong since they weren't deamed a "genius" by YOU. I mean, what makes you an expert on anything or entitles you to decide where someone's IQ lies? I think your last comment to me, only made your IQ seem HIGHLY questionable. I sure hope you find some happiness in your life, instead of spreading the negativity and animosity that you seem to take so much pleasure in. Good luck to you. |
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Date: 10/14/2003 9:23:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Thinker.... I didn't even come close to referring to Albert as a "stupid drunk." I'm not that person on USM that your referring to and I know that for a fact. I realize you used that as an example but I'm surprise you would condone such behavior on USM. That's very sad. |
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Date: 10/14/2003 9:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
No one should have to defend their opinion, or be attacked for it. Of course, unless the rules here have changed. Not one of us has to justify to another why we believe or do not believe in WHATEVER. We can offer our thoughts, our opinions, our references, but without any justifiable proof, where do we get off attacking each other or trying to "take away" from another? Of course, the debate section would be lost based on my assumption. But again, offering a thought or opinion here should not be grounds for assumption that someone else is less knowledgeable, unless someone here has all the answers and proof of the universe. I'm open to that. |
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Date: 10/14/2003 9:40:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
It's amusing that I'm the one eimaj accused of being "bias and close-minded," when I'm the only one who found the title of this "bait and hook" post, offensive. See one of my ealier comments. So much for your judgment of me on that one, eimaj. |
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Date: 10/14/2003 10:12:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
WarriorSpirit, I agree with your comment you make some very good points there. |
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Date: 10/14/2003 10:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Brenda, great words there and I agree. |
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Date: 10/15/2003 6:28:00 AM
From Authorid: 13297
You choose, you said some things in your comment to me that I found insulting so I lashed back. That didn't make it right to do and I'm sorry for my behaviour. I said I concede when I'm wrong and I am - that doesn't mean I am negating everything I said but I think most of us here know what was uncalled for in BOTH OF OUR comments. However, you've said a few things and asked a few questions that I feel like I should at least clear up. I will try to do it in the most diplomatic way possible. Here is the conversation: You say I "name call," where have I done that? *** You called Einstein *suprisingly stupid* and said he couldn't remember to clothe himself which I took as an attempt attempt to discredit him*** As for my disagreeing with anything that doesn't have a Christian opinion... I guess I should just start agreeing with everything that I don't believe or know to be the truth for me. **** No you shouldn't. You are entitled to your beliefs and I especially am not asking you to change them. However, it doesn't APPEAR TO ME that you even *consider* what the other side has to say before you immediately begin attacking it. That was my point - at least allow the other side their viewpoint and simply say *I don't agree*. Wow, wouldn't that be handy for you and so many others that refuse to admit their animosity toward Christians and their beliefs. **** Whoa, back the truck up. I have ABSOLUTELY NO animosity towards Christians and their beliefs. I was raised a Christian and almost all of my family members are Christians. I still believe in God just not a personal God. I am a panthiest. I have no problem with my beliefs and I have NO PROBLEM letting you believe as you want to. What I don't like is people telling me I'm wrong or chastising me for my beliefs (and I'm not saying you have done that I'm just putting it out there so you understand where I am coming from). I find it offensive that you would say that considering that I often listen to all sides before making a decision and if you read what I write here you will see that I have many times had amiable conversations with Deb, Firstborn and many other notorious Christians here. I didn't always agree with them and vice versa but those conversations were at least productive and amiable. **** Many of your comments to me have been out of line. **** As were many of yours to me **** We are all human here and I can't count how many times I've apologized to someone in either profile or on a post because I feel I may have offended them. YOU ARE ASSUMING a lot about me and know absolutely nothing when it all comes down to it. I don't know you as a person, I know you as a "tag" on USM just as you do me. **** You're right all I have to go on is the personality *You choose* and it is how I addressed you because I don't know YOU personally. The things I said were based on what I see of *You choose* as that is all I have to go on **** I don't judge you or anyone else here for that matter. **** Neither do I **** You did judge me though, by continuing to say that I am bias and close-minded. **** I don't feel it was a judgement so much as an observation. I felt you were being biased by calling Einstein stupid. **** Your argument and your very weak attempt to validate that, holds no water. **** These types of comments are HONESTLY what initially put me on the defensive **** I GUARANTEE that everyone has said things in a heated discussion that were taken the wrong way by someone. You are the one pointing fingers here and giving subtle insults. **** As were you, I responded to the ones you put in your comment to me **** Perhaps, you need to begin to be honest with yourself about your attitude before you start rattling off assumptions about others. **** Likewise ******************** ....Also wanted to mention that your comments about my IQ are very RUDE and SHALLOW. I can't believe you had the audacity to say something so crude. **** I'm sorry that was out of line. It was a dig that was uncalled for. I was trying to illustrate a point and I took it too far. **** By mentioning that, you're insinuating that you are some genius yourself? **** Not hardly. I'm sorry if you read that into it **** That is what's pompus and arrogant in my opinion. **** It would be if that was what I implied **** I never said Albert was ignorant or that he wasn't a genius, I even called him "brilliant." **** Right before you called him *surprisingly stupid* **** Just because he said something, doesn't prove it to be the true though. Those quotes are opinions of his in areas where he nor anyone else, can provide solid proof either way. **** Name me one thing he postulated that has yet to be proven wrong **** NO HUMAN says or does everything perfectly all of the time. Just because someone disagree with one of his quotes, doesn't mean that they're wrong since they weren't deamed a "genius" by YOU. **** I am in no place to name anyone a genius. Only tests such as the standford bennet or the recognized accomplishments of a person can do that. I never made a claim to hold that authority **** I mean, what makes you an expert on anything or entitles you to decide where someone's IQ lies? **** I never claimed I was an expert or that I had that authority. However, I made my assessment based on the fact that on most tests the average IQ is somewhere around 100. Genius is 150 - so actually I gave you quite the benefit of the doubt. It wasn't as insulting as it looked. 140 is an admirable IQ. **** I think your last comment to me, only made your IQ seem HIGHLY questionable. **** I'm sorry but I fail to understand how you can logically deduce that my IQ has anything to do what that comment. **** I sure hope you find some happiness in your life, instead of spreading the negativity and animosity that you seem to take so much pleasure in. **** Another assumption. I don't take pleasure in spreading animosity or negativity. In fact I'm apologising because I don't need the negativity or the stress in my life - especially not from a message board and someone I don't even know personally. As I explained above I responded to your comments to me line by line and I took it personally and got defensive. I shouldn't have - what I should have done was ignore it but it's said and done. I don't apologise to you for defending my position nor do I apologise for everything I said but we both know there were a few things that were out of line and because I was incensed I admit they were intended to insult. For that I do apologise. **** |
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Date: 10/15/2003 8:58:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
Ah, THAT IS ALL GOD ASKS OF US: Acknowledge the TRUTH. ^^^^^ God Bless. |
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Date: 10/15/2003 9:33:00 AM
From Authorid: 54987
Which is what we're all trying to do! |
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Date: 10/15/2003 10:08:00 AM
From Authorid: 13297
That is right Deb we should sometimes tuck our tails and admit what is right or the truth. I only hope *you choose* can find it in her heart to forgive and to do the same... cheers, |
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Date: 10/15/2003 7:10:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
eimaj...WRONG again, I said those particular "WORDS of Einstein's were surprisingly stupid." I NEVER SAID HE WAS STUPID HIMSELF ANYWHERE...although you've said that I did numerous times. That's a real LONG-SHOT anyway, considering he's deceased and isn't a member of USM. On another note...you're WRONG AGAIN... I never even directed a comment to YOU until YOU FIRST addressed one of mine, that wasn't about or to you in any way. YOu started this little interaction, don't make it seem as if I did. You also say that I said offensive things to you? Where??? OR was something offensive to you when I was merely DEFENDING things you said to me with examples? THEN, you say your apologizing in one sentence and that YOU'RE NOT in another? In the big finale....you say, "I only hope *you choose* can find it in her heart to forgive and to do the same. Wow, that's amazing. Yes, I forgive you....did that yesterday, after I read those remarks. I won't ask for your forgiveness since I wasn't the in "attack mode." I don't enjoy being used as some "crazy experiment" or deluded voyage to express another person's views or arguments. You have your opinions, I have mine. I won't try to change your and you should have enough respect to do the same for me. I'm only SORRY that some people have such a hard time saying THEIR SORRY and not taking it back. If your sorry your sorry, you shouldn't have to break it up and disect it. I'm sorry for having even let this bother me to begin with. Good luck to you. |
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Date: 10/15/2003 7:15:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
eimaj....in summation here, I will hold no hard feelings toward you over this. This is one post and hppefully not an epidemic. Even though I don't know whether you apologized or not, I see an attempt. Like I said, no hard feeling and I consider this converation to be over. God bless |
Date: 10/16/2003 7:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 57225
dont assume u know everything about an atheists beliefs, or lack of. an atheist is someone who doesnt believe in a higher power, yes, but each person has their own interpretation of what religion is or isnt to them. i dont believe in god so i dont believe i will be punished for that, because to me he doesnt exist. if i am wrong and there is a 'superior being' s/he should not punish me for having my own thoughts and opinions as long as they are not hurtful to others. if your all-forgiving perfect 'god' is going to punish someone for allowing themself to believe as they see fit, then maybe s/he's not so perfect after all. good thing we dotn hafta worry about that though.  |
Date: 1/19/2004 11:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 37900
It seems to me that, if there is no God, atheists will not be punished, since there is no one to punish them. If there is a God, then, as Two Spirit has suggested, all will be judged by their deeds. Atheists then, will be judged by all behaviors that emanate from a disbelief in God. They will also be rewarded for behaviors that result from other beliefs. Good post!  |
Date: 5/10/2004 2:13:00 PM
From Authorid: 62624
It was said to me that "God doesn't punish the sinner. Sin punishes the sinner."  |
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