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Date: 9/27/2003 3:00:00 PM
From Authorid: 40979
I hate these posts....and all the stories about the middle east .  |
Date: 9/27/2003 3:43:00 PM
From Authorid: 1225
Then why read them?  |
Date: 9/27/2003 4:13:00 PM
From Authorid: 47162
ummm this is a weak argument against the war in iraq. I mean some isolated teddy bear transport story? Soliders who can't handle the fear. chances are if they can't handle the fear of combat they shouldn't have signed up. Now if you want to make a case against the war. Here is what you should mention. 1. The clear list of unknown reasons used to go in the first place. Usually when people want to do something no matter what, they come up with any and every reason to do it. Bush did that with Iraq. One minute it was WMD next minute it was because Saddam is a bad guy, now it's cuz we can fight the terrorists there. People hell bent on smething will say anything to get it done. 2. How about we haven't found any WMD's. 3.Saudi's attacked us, not Iraqi's. 4. We still haven't found Osama yet, how about 150,000 troups to go chase down the guy who actually did stuff to us?*shrug* I think the message the world gets is this. If you want america to come after you with less than it's best, then attack us. We haven't given our all like we did in Iraq. So those are some reasons to be against the war.  |
Date: 9/27/2003 6:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 22080
oh he's only airforce, he should try being a grunt, my friends dad is a truck driver over there and he was in the fallujah attack, we dont belong over there, we served whatever false purpose we have now lets get our men and women home to take care of their kids or live their lives  |
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Date: 9/27/2003 6:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 22080
r1 id like to see you be under mortar attacks every night, this goes on in iraq and afghanistan, my dad is in afghanistan, a former infantryman, he is in fear of his life, he said every night he gets a certain feeling, the kind he would get before an ambush when he was in the infantry, whats that tell ya? no matter how "prepared" you are for war it is still scary |
Date: 9/27/2003 7:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 54987
It worries me that some guys are going insane from fear and trying to commit suicide. We have to remember that a lot of these guys are young and inexperienced in life. I fear that a lot will come home scarred for life emotionally. There is no real training for facing death and seeing your friends die. Maybe the teddy bear was to comfort someone out there who knows?  |
Date: 9/27/2003 8:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 29532
I agree AND dissagree. I believe that if we can stop the terrorism where it BEGINS, we will win the fight. If we just bring them all home, we will loose. Look at 9/11 for exaple. NO ONE knew about it, NO ONE could have contorled it, NO ONE could do anything to stop it. This kind of thing will keep happening if we do not stay there and stop it before it hits our beautiful country. Look at how many times we have been damaged by these acts. Look at how many lives were lost because of this. Look at all the times our Government has failed us before. I think this time they made the right decision. Keep them there and have them fight for the good of our nation. For freedom. For the lack of fear. Bring them home, and they will not do their jobs effectively. They will be home and more comfortable. What do you do when you are comfortable? You let your guard down. Do we really want that to happen? Nope. But I DO agree that it is hurting our men and women over there. And I care about them, but I know they are fighting for A GREATER GOOD. And I am so proud of what they have done and are doing. This is a war for peace. It is neccecsary.  |
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Date: 9/27/2003 8:51:00 PM
From Authorid: 22080
since when was iraq flying planes into our buildings? oh yeah thats right it was the taliban that hated saddam! wierd aint it? i think we should let them rebuild their nation, the iraqi people hate our soldiers as it is, why keep them over there and endanger them, does somalia ring a bell yet? |
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Date: 9/27/2003 11:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
An important question about these protests is studiously avoided. That is, why must we choose either/or? We are told that we can either, support our troops or, protest the war. Says who? I can and do support every unfortunate soldier over there in the war and I wish them no harm and wish they were home. At the same time I vigorously oppose this war and all it stands for. I refuse to be forced into this "Have you stopped beating your wife?" kind of rhetoric. The war is obscene. The troops are as much victims as the unfortunate civilians in Iraq. Stop screaming about patriotism when people say they oppose the war, all right? It's BS and everyone guilty of the name calling, including our castrated media, knows it.  |
Date: 9/27/2003 11:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 61901
I dont believe a word of this.  |
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Date: 9/27/2003 11:21:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
Our soldiers continue to die on an average of two each day. What the hell kind of "victory" is that? The Iraqis, our dear friends, who are so grateful we liberated them, keep shooting. I must be missing something. |
Date: 9/28/2003 1:25:00 AM
From Authorid: 47296
I have talked with a few of the members of my old unit who were deployed to the Gulf region. Some of them just returned home in the past month or so. The look I have seen on some of their faces is a far cray from the people I knew several years ago. Many of them use to joke about the veterans in our unit, but their is no joking there anymore. They too are now veterans, and you can tell that some of them saw some things that they will always remember. R1, I would rather have a whole platoon of troops who live with fear than a company of gung-ho troops who fear nothing. Many of the troops may indeed be fearful, but when you are in a hostile land where the peace can quickly be shattered by weapons fire, rockets, or remote detonated mines, fear may just keep you cautious enough not to get yourself killed. And Jestr, the Air Force is not the only ones flying planes in the Gulf region. The Ary has some of their own cargo aircraft for short hauls.  |
Date: 9/28/2003 2:17:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
"Look at 9/11 for exaple. NO ONE knew about it, NO ONE could have contorled it, NO ONE could do anything to stop it." - Actually they could've lessen the death toll, its standard procedure to send up military jets when passenger jets go off course.  |
Date: 9/28/2003 3:21:00 AM
From Authorid: 48250
I Agree With Two Spirit......Which Brings me To Ask A Question I Have Been Curious About....If We All Wish To Support Our Troops...By Writing Letters Of Support And Encouragement...How Do We Find Out About Doing This??? Thanks...Have A Great Day!!!....Take/Care.....  |
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Date: 9/28/2003 6:48:00 AM
From Authorid: 22080
62118 they didnt know where the jet was going to, not to mention it was over urban areas, shooting a plane down in those conditions would do exactly what the terrorist wanted |
Date: 9/28/2003 7:27:00 AM
From Authorid: 48809
What a pity that we have once again stuck our nose into something that we had no right to. When will we ever learn to mind our own business?  |
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Date: 9/28/2003 8:05:00 AM
From Authorid: 29532
62118, Jestr is right, suck it up. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 8:09:00 AM
From Authorid: 29532
POSEY GET REAL! use some brain power. THESE PEOPLE ATTAKED US! Remember....THIS IS OUR BUISNESS, christ, what do you want to do, just sit at home in fromt of your PC while Osama keeps flying planes into large buildings in the US, or putting bombs into them? Maybe release a chemical warfare? This should have been done LONG ago BEFORE 9/11. We should have been there fighting this fight a long time ago! Maybe when the bomb went off in the trade centers a few years back. Geeze. I thought Americans knew the impornatnce of this war. I guess I was sadly mistaken by your comment. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 8:32:00 AM
From Authorid: 47296
Pink Bunny, I have been around a long time, and almost al my adult life involved in the military. Posey has been around longer than I have. In Posey's lifetime, she has seen us invovled in numerous conflicts, including ones that were justified and some that were not. I have also been in places that we had no business being in, because we were there for the wrong reasons. No one in Iraq attacked us, and as has been shown so far, there are no chemeical weapons or other WMDs to be used against us. Many Americans do know that this was not a war of importance, but a political war. It was supposed to insure Bush a reelection, but like his father and the first Gulf War, it will probably cost him the Presidency. You talk about "Getiing Real". Why don't you get real. I cannot stand young people who think they know more thatn the odler generation when it comes to situations like this, and especially those who think they know more than the veterans of this country who have been involved in more political morasses that our history tells us. Already our people over there have filled more body bags than they did during the actual shooting war. You know what? They ae going to fill more, a lot more. Unlike Vietnam, the media is showing the planes with caskets coming back into America. Maybe they should start doing that so that they people like you will begin to realize that we are fighting in a no-win situation in Iraq that is only go to cause more lives. |
Date: 9/28/2003 8:57:00 AM
From Authorid: 61977
Thank You Jean. Luckily I have not lost anyone I know over there so far. My husband will be going over there I am sure in a few months...yet again as he was there the first time. I forsee this war going on for many years and people being far away from their families and loved ones.....some will come home to nothing.....no spouse no furniture nothing. Soldier life is something that many do not know about and unless you have served your country or it has touched you due to a family member it is something that civilians that has never served their country will never understand. I see where people can feel certain ways about the war and their veiws they carry. I respect them too, I have seen too much in this past year as a Non Commissioned Officer that is a bite in the back here in garrrison......I will stop now. While I am ahead. Peace be to all of you and have a great day.  |
Date: 9/28/2003 9:16:00 AM
From Authorid: 36704
Yeah we should pull out today so that when we do the remnants of the Baath party can try to rise again and kill a few thousand people while they're at it. The Kurds can also rise up and try to turn their land into a sovereign state and kill a few thousand. Other parties will also rise up, the Shi'ites are goners. Iraq can have a civil war that goes on for years killing thousands of people a day. After all they're just Muslims who cares, two servicemen a day are dying, so what if Saddam killed an average of 160 people a day. Yes we should definitely pull out of Iraq just like Vietnam. When we pulled out of Vietnam there were deaths by the thousands and hundreds of thousands of refugees that fled and were homeless. Who cares about those people, two of our servicemen are the equivalent of at least a thousand muslims. We could pull out today and create a huge crisis for the world and the muslim population. Why only kill two people a day when you can kill thousands.  |
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Date: 9/28/2003 11:04:00 AM
From Authorid: 47296
Base, the Arab world will never know peace. The reason is there are too many religous factions that cannot agree on the most basic of precepts. Little is known about the Moslem religion, including the truths behind it's origins. There has even been research done that states that Islam was a creation of the Catholic church done in an effort to try and bring the word of God to teh nomadic Arabs, and try to bring peace to a troubled region that has existed for centuries. The thing that gets me is that it is known that some of the people in power positions in Saudi Arabia have been behind terrorism, including the 9-11 attacks. Why is nothing done about that? The answer is simple, we do not want to bite the hand that feeds us, or in this case, quenches our thirst for oil. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 12:27:00 PM
From Authorid: 48809
Pink Bunny, you tell me to "Get real" and use some "brain power"? Well, well, I might tell you that you try the same thing because your insulting remark shows that you are very far removed from anyone in the "brain dept"! Have you no pity for those people who are in Iraq and were/are involved in this terrible war that will no doubt end up being another Viet Nam ? I have great respect for those men and women who have been sent into this "hell on earth" just because some one wants to make a "statement" that he can do whatever he wants to and he does not need anyone's permission or approval to do so! I would NOT see ONE of our brave soldiers shot down like dogs for all the oil in the east! The men in my family have all responded to the "Call to Arms " when there was a legitiment reason for doing so and there were those that never came home again . When this happens to you then you may "have the floor" and we will all listen to you! Are you willing to send your own child or anyone else in your family that you love into this awful place to be slaughtered and with fanatics who will gun them down on sight? I think not. What a terrible waste! |
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Date: 9/28/2003 12:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 48809
Thank you for the support Two Spirit, I agree with you and I owe you!lol. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 3:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
They can know peace Two Spirit but they have nothing to show them that it's possible yet. The middle east is a mess and it threatens the world's safety. Never read anything about the Catholic Church creating the Muslem religion so can't comment on that. Saudi Arabia is not Iraq and each country is dealt with differently. The Saudi government has seized over five million dollars of terrorists money, announced two terrorist organizations within their country and have arrested individuals from those organizations. They set up a permanent committee to curb money laundering that goes to terrorists organizations. By the end of 2002 the Saudi government had questioned over 1000 terror suspects and had 100 of them that they were keeping detained. They also froze Al Qaeda assets in their country. It's not like the Saudi government has done nothing. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 3:27:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
Let's talk about Vietnman and the anti war protestors of it Posey. Ever read the memoirs of Col. Bui Tin, or Truong Nhu Tang who attribute the win of the war to the Vietnam protestors in America and how America was trying in vain to do the right thing. They wonder where those protestors were when America pulled out and they were slaughtering people by the thousands and hundreds of other thousands were fleeing. "Nowadays the aspiration of the vast majority of the Vietnamese people, both at home and abroad, is to see an early end to the politically conservative, despotic and authoritarian regime in Hanoi so that we can truly have a democratic government of the people, by the people, for the people." (Bui Tin, Following Ho Chi Minh, p. 192) Bui Tin was one of Ho Chi Minh most faithful comrades. We could have given the vietnamese people a democracy years ago but instead we pulled out due to the pressure from the anti war protestors. Pulling out sent a message that we could be defeated and since then everytime we sustain casualties anti war American's demand the troops to be pulled out. Terrorists know this, other governments know this and that's why other governments say the anti war protestors are their greatest allies. They target our soldiers because they know that when they do people here will demand we bring the troops home. Most Iraqis don't trust us because they wanted us to take Saddam out during the Gulf War and when we didn't they lost faith. They don't think we'll finish what we started here and if you guys have it your way, we won't. Whether anyone agrees with the war or not, we have to finish what we started. If not things will only get worse. The people who already don't trust us in Iraq to finish the job will hate us even more and possibly turn into terrorists themselves if we leave and their people are killed by the thousands or hundreds of thousands like Vietnam. The next war will be even worse for our servicemen because as the past has already dictated the way to win a war against America is by killing their soldiers because the American people are weak and will make their government pull out. There's a lot more at stake here then just this war but none of you seem to realize that. It's always so simple, just pull out. Must be nice to not have to ever think about the repercussions of just pulling out and bringing our troops home. What you don't realize is the more you protest the more likely they are to keep killing our soldiers. You are as much of a threat to our soldiers safety as the terrorists who feed off of you to try and win. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 5:31:00 PM
From Authorid: 22080
the bullying we started in iraq is over, we collapsed the baath party now we need to pull out and let them build back up their government, the funniest thing i saw on the news the other day "lower economy is making a bigger military", i wonder why bush isnt trying to get the economy up? |
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Date: 9/28/2003 6:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
The economy is going up http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030927/ap_on_bi_go_ec_fi/economy_28. The bullying we started lol, it doesn't really matter anymore how it started, the fact is we're there and there's a lot more riding on the outcome then you seem to understand. The Baath party is not all the way destroyed, if we left now they would try to rise again along with a bunch of other parties who are hoping we'll do exactly what you people want, which is exactly what the Iraqi civilians fear we'll do. We can't just pull out, wish it were that easy but unfortunately it's not. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 6:31:00 PM
From Authorid: 54987
Well that's funny! Just the other day the news had this item entitled: War on Terror Takes Toll on U.S. Economy'WASHINGTON - 'Two years into the war on terrorism, hopes that the struggle would be only a brief drag on the economy are fading. Businesses and consumers are facing a growing list of security-related burdens, the federal deficit is ballooning from increased military spending and Americans are jittery about the future.' Dated Thu Sep 25, 3:53 PM ET http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030925/ap_on_bi_ge/economy_terrorism_1 |
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Date: 9/28/2003 7:10:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
here's one from the BBC Growth boost for US economy http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3143106.stm what's your point Koolade there was an increase an increase means the economy is going up |
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Date: 9/28/2003 7:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
Base, your information on the economy is highly inaccurate. As a small business person, I have watched the economy decline since just before the war. As more units deploy overseas, the economy has gotten worse. Several people I know who had small businesses have shut down. In August, it took all month to make as much as I would in a single weekend. September has not been much better, running less than 50% of what it was before the war. As for the Middle East, have you ever been there? I can tell you that the only thing most of the Moslem world has in common is a dislike for America. They see us as arrogant and overbearing, wishing to place our whims on the world. As to Vietnam, it was not the protesters that lost that war, but the politicians in Washington. Our troops won battle after battle, but were never allowed to do what was necessary to win the war, and that was to invade North Vietnam and bring an end to hostilities. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 8:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
My information is accurate, your business is not the entire US and while you may not be doing well that does not mean that the rest of the people are not also. Some business have laid off or went under and others have expanded and new businesses have started. My family's businesses have done just fine. So have all of my friends families that own their own business. You do not constitute the entire country. Numbers are numbers this quarter our economy is up whether you want to accept that or not. As far as Vietnam yes Washington fell to the pressure of the protestors and hopefully they don't do it again. The Muslim countries hate us because they see us as weak and stupid. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 8:35:00 PM
From Authorid: 54987
Some say its up .. .some say its down... maybe we shouldn't listen to anyone huh? My point is that you show a news item (allbeit English) saying that the US economy is on the up. I show a news item saying its down! |
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Date: 9/28/2003 8:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
Or it could be that the article you posted was written on Thursday before the numbers were announced on Friday. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 9:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
When the Hussein brothers, Uday and Qusay, were killed the whole Western world, and part of the Middle East, celebrated. They were beasts, monsters, murderers, torturers. Grade-A Sons of you-know-what. There is only one problem with their deaths. They occurred three months after President George W. Bush announced that the war was over. Think about this one. Three long months after the president announced "victory" for the allied forces, and stated unambiguously that the "war with Iraq is over" US troops tracked down and assassinated the Hussein brothers. The point is not whether or not these were rotten men. There are a lot of rotten men in this world. The point is, what right did we have to murder them? We were no longer in a state of war. They were not "the enemy." There is no getting around the fact that, evil or not, the Hussein brothers were assassinated by soldiers of the United States of America, in violation of our own country's laws, not to mention what we supposedly stand for. We invaded a sovereign nation, initiating an unprovoked war, and proceeded to assassinate leaders of that nation long after the war was over, when Iraq and the United States were at peace, whether the Iraqi citizens like us or not. And you'll notice that at the outset of the this war the Administration would not tolerate the use of the word "occupation." We were going to liberate, not occupy. Well, today you can't pick up a newspaper that does not refer to us as "occupation forces." Because that's what we are. We now have our own West Bank. Those people do not want us there. Which is why they keep killing us. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 9:24:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
Base, small businesses, which are the backbone of this country, are hurting, while big business, which is the politicians bread and butter, are the ones growing. I work construction when I am not running my business, and the work we are doing is mainly for big corporations that are expanding. A year ago, it was primarily for smaller businesses. We have not had a small business contract since spring. The business I operate depends on the availibility of expendable income. That expendable income is dwindling, thus one reason small businesses are folding. Since the war began, my overhead cost, which includes travel, has increased considerably. Part of that is due to the fuel situation. You can believe what you want about the economy, but there are many of us in small business that will tell you different. In fact, try getting a small business loan right now. Because of the economy, it is very hard to do. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 9:30:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
Shadow Ghost, Hussein, his sons and the top leaders of his regime are supposed to stand trial for crimes against humanity. If we had a serial killer on the loose in the United States should the FBI or police walk up to their door and ask them to go with them and if they say no, just leave? That makes no sense. Some of Hussein's men have turned themselves in because they didn't want to die and they will stand trial, just because the war is over doesn't mean they're off the hook for murdering millions of people. We are occupying Iraq while we try to help them set up a government, just like we did in Japan which took years, are we still in Japan, no and we won't always be in Irag. I can't believe how you people just think that a country that has known nothing but dictators and has regimes inside of it who would love to become the next in power are supposed to set up a democracy just like that. How many years did it take to write our constitution when we didn't even have the internal power struggles they do? |
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Date: 9/28/2003 9:31:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
We are supposed to believe that even after we targeted 14,000, that's fourteen thousand sites, and have come up with zilch in the area of WMD, that Hussein managed to hide all of the above. The most gullible clodhopper imaginable would not buy that one. We are supposed to believe that those "thousands of tons of chemical agents" along with an entire nuclear weapons program, were buried somewhere in the desert, and no one, not one single Iraqi, will tell us anything about how that happened. We are being asked to believe that there is not one scientist or truck driver or clerical worker or backhoe operator or lab technician who hated Saddam enough to give us one iota of evidence that would lead to the elusive WMD. Not one Iraqi. How likely is that? We entered Baghdad on April 9. That famous city fell on that day. Check your calendar again. We have had free run of that country since then and have still not found one, single WMD. There never were any WMD; we went to war for oil and got it; we had no exit strategy which is why Iraq is such a chaotic, lawless mess; and that, as they say, is that. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 9:33:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
Also Base, I don't know how much you know about Vietnam, but if you ask the veterans, many of them will tell you that yes, the protesters did hurt what they were doing, but it was the politicians trying to run the war from Washington that cost us victory. We were supposed to be advisors, but Johnson caved in and expanded our role. There were several incidences where the war could have been won or shortened greatly, but the powers that be got cold feet and denied commanders the ability to do what they were best trained for. One reason was their fear of expanding the war, as happened in Korea. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 9:40:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
Our economy took a hard hit with 9/11. Things could be a lot worse, be thankful they're not. Growth in the economy is up, it will dwindle down to small businesses you just have to give it time, things don't happen overnight. The fact that two years later our economy is starting on the upswing again should be good news. If people keep up the pessimistic attitude that's not gonna help because they'll be afraid to spend. Our numbers released Friday are a good thing and hopefully soon the smaller businesses like yours will also start to pick up. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 9:43:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
Why do you assume that the Iraqi's haven't said anything, just because it's not front page news? Also, you blame it all on the US yet no other country refutes that Iraq had unaccounted for WMD and they couldn't prove if they destroyed them or not and you discount intelligence sources that are not American. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 9:52:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
We have the finest fighting force in the world, and in the history of the world. They have acted splendidly under horrible conditions. I take my hat off to them and wish they had never been sent in the first place. Our armed forces deserve better than to have to risk their lives, and kill thousands of innocent civilians, over a murky political, religious power struggle that is proving murkier by the day.I despise and hold in contempt all lying politicians who would risk the lives of our troops for their political aims, which is what all this is about. It is all about $$$$$$$$. I will say that as long as the US avoids any and all atrocities committed by any other country. Nigeria is an example and the women being beaten and publicly lashed for adulterous crimes comes to mind, as well as the poor conditions in hospitals in Iraq and the poor lack of medical care for Iraqi people. One final thought. Are you aware there is still chaos in Afghanistan? Refugees from the UK are being forced to move back into that rubble known as Afghanistan because we made no better arrangements after bombing that already devastated country. Our record in the Middle East is nothing short of dreadful, and I fear for the future. "Oil, oil, oil.", we'll see how the New & Improved Democratic Iraq is doing. Let's hope that they'll at least have running water. We have a country here that sorely lacks in medical care, many who must choose between eating or buying life saving drugs. And there is nothing on the agenda for our own. Nothing. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 9:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
The powers to be got cold feet because they were worried about elections which is what I hope doesn't happen here. Everyone's turning it political which isn't helping. We're there, we can't just turn our backs on the Iraqi civilians, and leave them to be killed by regimes trying to get power, their biggest fear is exactly what people here want to happen. The Iraqi's read whats written in our newspapers, see it on tv and see what's going on here with the anti war protestors as do terrorists and regimes in Iraq, it's helping nothing. Maybe cutting back on the negative for awhile would quit giving the opposition hope that their plan is working, save some of our servicemens lives and make it easier to get out of their a little faster. Rather then making a bad situation worse people can just not vote Dubya back in to office. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 9:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
This is not the country I grew up in. The USA I grew up in did not initiate preemptive wars. As bad as Vietnam was, there was at least a call for help from South Vietnam, and we were treaty partners. But Iraq? We just told the UN to stick it, invaded a country with our considerable full force, grabbed Iraq's oil wells and further devastated an already devastated nation. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 10:03:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
Some parts of Afghanistan are under control and some parts are atrocious. Pull out of Iraq now and Iraq would be far worse then Afghanistan and that's not fair to the people there. We should have had more troops and dealt with Afghanistan more aggressively that's our fault. I don't see whether people agreed with the war or not why they want innocent people to die by the thousands instead of finishing what we started. The worst thing we could do would be to pull out we owe it to them to at least clean up the mess we made of their country. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 10:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
So now we're going to "install" democracy in Iraq. Democracy is not a plant, like a petunia. You can't set it in a pot, water it, and watch it grow. After 200 years of practice we are still trying to perfect our democratic republic, though the presidential election of 2000 proves we aren't even close yet. But we keep talking about Democracy as if it were a commodity, easily acquired. It is no such thing, and Iraq is a most uninviting place to try to get it going anyway. That country has been divided by tribal and religious factions for its entire history, and to try to pat them on their collective heads and say, in effect, "Now you're a democracy! Please get along, children" is an insult to all. It ain't gonna happen!~ |
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Date: 9/28/2003 10:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
When Tanzania went in to Uganda they had no Security Council mandate. Vietnam had no UN mandate to go into Cambodia. France went into Africa many times without getting UN approval. Nato led by the US didn't have UN approval to go into Bosnia or Kosovo. This is not the first time a country has went into another country with the backing of the UN. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 10:10:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
So what you're saying is the Muslims are too stupid to understand democracy? That's not a racist statement or anything. Democracy has been installed in countries in Africa and in Japan and other countries who in their histories had never had it before and worked. I refuse to blanket statement all Muslims into religious zealots or terrorists who have no hope of ever finding peace. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 10:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
FACT: The only nation to date to drop nuclear bombs on another nation is the USA. And we did it to hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, not soldiers. And we did it twice. FACT: December 14, 2001, the United States of America announced its withdrawal from a 1972 arms control treaty in order to pursue development of a new missile defense system. Washington made the decision despite objections by Russia and concerns expressed by some close allies. FACT: The economy is not recovering, as we were told in the Union Speech. The economy has declined 20% since George Alfred Bush took office; during the same period, national government grew by 10%. FACT: WE armed both Iran and Iraq to keep them at each other's throats. Look at the price we're paying for that asininity. FACT: Nothing has happened (or is being reported) about those Corporate Bandits from Enron, WorldCom, Arthur Andersen and so on. Why? I feel like the Germans must have felt in 1938, when the press was effectively muzzled, controlled completely by The State. (All assertions in this column are from legitimate [if there is such a thing anymore] news sources such as MSNBC, CNN, The Washington Post and so on.) FACT: Over 50% of Americans think there were Iraqis aboard the hijacked airliners on 9/11. Isn't that frightening?? (REAL STORY: There were 15 Saudis and 4 Egyptians-you know, from those wonderful allies of ours, Saudi Arabia and Egypt.) How can we be so misinformed? Why isn't the White House making a serious effort to dispel that BS?? Oh, yeah, I forgot. We have to go bomb Iraq, so such disinformation helps justify it. FACT: After two years of intensive effort, there has not been one link yet discovered between Saddam Hussein and 9/11. But we're going to bomb Iraq anyway. And that is a fact. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 10:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
Imagine there is no oil anywhere in the Middle East. Or imagine the entire West is now beyond oil dependency. Or both. Can anyone say with a straight face that all of this madness would still be taking place? A sovereign nation that has not been proven to have committed any acts against us,any more than any other terror-sponsoring countries, which includes half of the Middle East. And once we have Iraq (and their oil), what then? There is no exit strategy. And look at the wonderful job we did in Afghanistan. Aren't they free and happy and prosperous now? |
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Date: 9/28/2003 10:33:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
We promised the Iraqi people that we were "liberating" them, not invading them, and that we would bring democracy and freedom to them in short order. Months after the invasion there are still places without power and water, there is no government in place, leaving a power vacuum that is being filled by Muslim fundamentalists. several Iraqi liquor store owners have been killed by fundamentalists, and almost all the liquor stores have now been forcibly closed. Islamists asked (unsuccessfully so far) for Basra University to separate the women from the men. (We all know where that road leads , eventually females will be barred altogether.) Shopkeepers are putting up signs asking women to "cover their hair" before entering. More and more females are wearing "hijab" to avoid harassment and possible attacks. Movie theaters in Basra closed down for two weeks to screen all of their films for pornography, such as showing a woman's knees. All theater owners are afraid of attacks. Good-bye Saddam, hello Theocracy. What happened? to our promises of freedom for all Iraqis? Nothing. So you know what I think I'll do next election? Nothing. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 10:41:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
You can't bring freedom to people in months, go back through history and see how long it took to install new governments and not just the ones by the US. Short is a few years not a few months. I'm gonna reply to your other comment but I'm just curious as to why you think that supplying arms to Iran and Iraq is such a big deal. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 10:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
And just how does Iraq threaten the security of the United States. How can that downtrodden nation, after 12 years of sanctions, with nothing but oil, sand dunes and a totally tanked economy, threaten us? We have them surrounded by non-stop circling jets....... |
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Date: 9/28/2003 10:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
If we're going to bomb every potentially dangerous country headed by a bloodthirsty fruitcake, we're going to have to bomb a huge part of the planet. And we would be at the head of that list. We definitely, not possibly, have nuclear weapons. We definitely, not possibly, have a president who WILL ACT. WE are the most dangerous nation on earth. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 10:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
Are we not? |
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Date: 9/28/2003 11:04:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
Fact: All permanent members of the UN Security Council, several East European states and Syria supplied arms and related materials to the Iraqi government. In December 2002, the Iraqi government submitted a 12,000-page dossier to the UN naming companies from the UK, France, Russia, the USA and China as suppliers of weapons technology to Iraq. Although most of the trade ended in 1991 at the outbreak of the Gulf War, Russia, China and reportedly Portugal traded arms with Iraq after 1991 in breach of UN resolutions. The UN investigators found evidence that parts for long-range missiles were supplied to Iraq via a Palestinian middleman. Rosoboronexport, the Russian state-controlled arms export agency, maintained Baghdad sales offices despite the UN arms embargo. Fact: According to the economic report given on Friday the economy is recovering. Fact: There's almost daily coverage of Enron and the rest, it's in the business section of most newspapers or on the net. The 50% is frightening but not shocking and I already stated in an earlier comment what Saudi was doing about terrorists in their country. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/16/iraq/main573517.shtml, http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/3/18/74151.shtml, Iraq does have ties to terrorists even though Saddam's regime did not and Saddam refused to do anything about it. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 11:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
If we have all this power and are so dangerous then why don't we control the world? Although it's only in times of war, actually every war including World War II that our own people think we're out to take over the world, even though time and time again after every war that's proven to not be true. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 11:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
Britain and Israel, though stable democracies at the moment, definitely have nukes. There is grave uncertainty about all the "-stan" countries, and no, I can't name them all without looking it up every time, but it seems likely that there are nukes lurking there somewhere, dribbled in by hungry unemployed ex-Soviet scientists. But there is no doubt about North Korea. North Korea has had nuclear weapons for a long time. That country also has 1 million members in their military forces. One million. North Korea is in violation of 99% of the U. N. resolutions and told the U. N. to go to hell years ago. North Korea is a cruel, aggressive, dangerous "rogue" nation; it wants to destroy South Korea, it's within spitting distance of Japan and a stone's throw from Hawaii. So let's go bomb Iraq. Supposedly nations that sponsor terrorism are our enemies. This is going to be a very long list indeed. Syria, Iran, Libya, Lebanon, Pakistan, Sudan, Saudi Arabia . . . .Do you suppose we have enough bombs? And why didn't Alfred Bush mention bin Laden? I thought he was "gonna git 'em"???? Bush's war against Iraq is simply a continuation of his father's war and it's a chilling thought. WE may become the world's largest rogue nation in history. The U. N. inspectors found nothing, and I've heard nothing about our satellites detecting heat plumes in Saddam's country, but, well, you never know. So let's go bomb Iraq. We are going to war with Iraq with or without U. N. approval. This is called a unilateral action, and it would also be in violation of U. N. resolutions. But the White House made it clear that United States policy does not depend on the thoughts of "other countries." Who needs allies when you've got big bombs? |
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Date: 9/28/2003 11:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
I don't like war or killing people. Call it a quirk. What is fascinating about all this is that the people who enthusiastically support this war are 90% True Believers, most of them. Well, I really want peace and no killing. I will never believe that peace could not be achieved without killing. But I guess the Really Big Boys with Their Toys just can't wait to try them out. And we can't wait to watch it. While we all sit back in our comfortable easy chairs, with our remote controls at the ready as we anticipate another television war, we would do well to remember what war really is. It is not a computer game or a video game, designed to sharpen your Dead-Eye-Dick shooting skills. It is not a blood-and-guts Hollywood movie with stuntmen and fake blood smears. War is real, with real screaming and real blood and real dead bodies. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 11:26:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
I know how lucky I am to have been born in this country and I know the vast potential this country has always had with its almost limitless natural resources. But it sickens me to see this great nation turning itself into an imperialistic, warmongering Evil Empire. Never in our history have we initiated a preemptive war. Till now. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 11:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
I already gave you a list of other countries who acted unilaterally we are not the first and we won't be the last. As for Nuclear weapons, The USA, the Start-3 treaty limits the nuclear stockpile to 2,500, Russia pledged to reduce its nuclear arsenal to 1,500, France has 482 nuclear warheads, China has 434, Britain has 200, Israel has 100, India has 60, North Korea does have a reactor that can produce plutonium for five nuclear warheads a year which they just activated and if they have any yet it's suspected it's only one or two and no they haven't had them for a long time. Pakistan claims to have 48. |
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Date: 9/28/2003 11:45:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
I can understand someone being against the war because of people dying even despite how many people Saddam killed. What I don't understand is the people who claim to not want to see people die who want our troops to pull out so thousands and maybe hundreds of thousands of people can be slaughtered. |
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Date: 9/29/2003 3:32:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
"62118 they didnt know where the jet was going to, not to mention it was over urban areas, shooting a plane down in those conditions would do exactly what the terrorist wanted" - Unbelievable. Thats why they are meant to send them up, instead they laid back and watched. Who says they had to shoot them down? They only would've known that at the time if they already knew terrorists were flying the planes. |
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Date: 9/29/2003 3:34:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
"62118, Jestr is right, suck it up." - They screwed up. Get used to it. |
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Date: 9/29/2003 7:05:00 AM
From Authorid: 48809
Base, why should we talk about Viet Nam... I was under the impression that the debate was about the Middle East? We all know what happened in Viet Nam ... it's past history... over and done with... and nothing any of us can say or do about it now will ever change one iota of what happened there. As far as your opinion goes about what is happening in Iraq well, the rest of us have our opinion too. I still say that Bush had no right to invade Iraq and as everyone knows he used "scare tactics" on the American people to gain support for the war there! It has always been my opinion that he wanted to go back there to "flex his muscles" to these people just to make "His Daddy" look better after the Gulf war . It is also true that our economy is on a downward slide and continues to get worse all the time . This is an Industrial area where I live and there are MANY small and large businesses that are going out of business that have been here for upwards of 50 /60 years... so business may be "booming" where you live , but that is certainly not the case here. I feel very sorry for the parents of those who are still fighting in Iraq who were led to believe that their sons and daughters were only going to be there for a limited time...promises , promises! |
Date: 9/29/2003 10:57:00 AM
From Authorid: 62060
I havn't had time to read all of these, so apologies if I'm repeating what everyone else has said... But I've got to say the co-alition can't just go into a country, bring about a complete govermental and social upheaval, then leave. The US and the UK each has a responsibility to repair the damage done to Iraq.  |
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Date: 9/29/2003 5:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 22080
62118 what are you talking about? get your facts straight before you come on here |
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Date: 9/30/2003 3:37:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
^^ Maybe you want to do some research in future. |
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Date: 9/30/2003 3:40:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
I'll repeat it AGAIN. Military jets are meant to be sent up when passenger jets go off course, shooting them down is last resort. Get your facts straight. |
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Date: 9/30/2003 5:36:00 AM
From Authorid: 54987
62118 is right. It has always been the case that as soon as a plane changes course without warning, jets are sent up to intercept. Wasn't there 4 planes that went off course? The time it took to go from the airport to the towers was plenty time to scramble. Considering that the wtc was the target of a bomb in 93 and the cia had warnings of hijacked planes, it is bizarre that they couldn't put 2 and 2 together and at least be on alert. |
Date: 9/30/2003 6:04:00 AM
From Authorid: 51530
that plan did not go into place till after sep 11th, the other aspect is cammand authority to shoot down a commercial airliner had been reserved for the president only, now however there are a few others that can make that call. The point people miss about the war on terrorism, is well it's been hear far longer than the media would lead you to believe, and under Clinton we did not fight back, he put out military men and civilians back home in greater danger by backing down and backing down to anyone who shot one of our soldiers in the street. Now that is why the war in Iraq is being fought the way it is, they believe these little nonsense attacks taking one our two soldiers will corupt the American populations opinoin on weather or not this war is winnable, and the second you doubt that the troops can get the job done, is the second their job is not worth while. It saddens me to see that 2 short years after the highlight of American Pride, instead of repeating the spread of the spirit like it did after Pearl Harbor, it became as faded as those American flags that people refuse to replace and are too lazy to take down. You all Sadden me, and that there is a soldiers perspective.  |
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Date: 9/30/2003 10:20:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
Thats untrue. FAA documents that are available to the public, prove that fighter jets routinely intercept commercial aircraft without requiring or asking for approval from the White House. |
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Date: 9/30/2003 5:12:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
62118, intercept and shoot down are two seperate things. Since the end of the Cold War, we do not have the strip alert aircraft we once had. That means it takes a little longer to put an interceptor into the air. Before an aircraft can be intercepted, the FAA has to make the call that an aircraft is off course and not responding. Then the call is made for a military intercept. From the time that call is made, it can be up to 5 minutes before the call is made to launch aircraft, if there is an aircraft on strip alert, and ready to fly. |
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Date: 9/30/2003 6:31:00 PM
From Authorid: 22080
emo its not that we're doubting the soldiers, we're doubting our president and his purpose for this war |
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Date: 9/30/2003 11:21:00 PM
From Authorid: 51530
Why is it Americans for the most part are more concerned with defending Saddam Hussain's regime, than they are to relize they sleepsafer knowing that that man will nover posses a leadership position or the means to ever carry out an attack on Americans and their intrests. The biggest problem with this war is the fact all you people who protest it are too think headed see what it was for. You complain Korea is a bigger threat, and why is that? Because Clinton let the off the hook and ignored everything they were doing. He even went as far as to have their flag flown above old Glory on his trip to n. korea. That is a discrace. We headed the tyrant off at the pass, like it or not, you will one day have relize it. |
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Date: 10/1/2003 5:29:00 PM
From Authorid: 22080
there is tons more tyrants than saddam, why did we go after him first? its interesting how suddenly the price of oil went down isnt it? |
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49150 Category:(Debate) Created:(9/27/2003 1:37:00 PM)