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Date: 9/16/2003 4:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 13283
You are very right Jesus Freak . In the 1980s the Supreme Court ruled that the USA practiced Secularism . They have chosen atheism as the religion , even though we should be a christian nation . I think the USA is like 90 percent christian . Why must we cater to the athiests ? Razzy aka  |
Date: 9/16/2003 5:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 40319
Being secular and being atheistic are not the same thing. A secular government merely means that religion is kept separate from the government. The government doesn't go around saying "there is no god". The idea is that god isn't mentioned. You don't have to be an atheist to be secular.  |
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Date: 9/16/2003 5:28:00 PM
From Authorid: 40319
Oh, I guess I could answer the question too. I think a government could survive without religion. I mean sure, religion is going to influence the individual politicians that run a government, but it doesn't mean that the ten commandents or the five pillars of islam or whatever should be posted in governmental buildings. The ancient Romans basically said worship who you want, just be a good citizen and pay your taxes (at least that's how my history professor relayed it to the class last week). |
Date: 9/16/2003 6:15:00 PM
From Authorid: 54987
The government has not refused to accept religion. They have accepted that it is a personal belief. A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP that so many christians insist they have. I can't believe that you don't understand Jesus Freak after all the time you've been on here. Wow! The members of the government can believe in whatever religion they want... and the population can... AND in order to ensure that the good people of America are free to practice their own religion... the constitution says we must not make a law giving one particular religion the national religion. Atheists are not trying to take over..... it's just BIGOTED people who are putting that out... and you should know better  |
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Date: 9/16/2003 6:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Christianity has been the majority belief in America for so long; it has gotten away with domination and intrusions for so long, and now that the tables are being turned; and there are more and more people speaking up and speaking out against that domination, they're running scared and cranking up the volume on putting out all sorts of lying propaganda to hold onto its followers and in desperate attempts to retain that majority status, and at ANY MEANS necessary. I prefer at atheism (the LACK of theism....LACK of religion) being the default human condition when it comes to religion. Do you drink? do you smoke? do you play pool? do you ride a bike? do you grind your teeth? do you read? None of these things are innate to the human condition, but are ADDED attractions. Are you a registered Republican? if you haven't, this does not necessarily automatically make you a Democrat. Can you imagine someone who is apolitical? someone who does not care about politics -- or who thinks the whole game of politics is just a game? a sham? Not the best analogy, but I want to point out that the words are the same as I use them: apolitical is to politics what atheist is to theism: an atheist is someone who is WITHOUT theism. Atheism does not necessarily assert "No gods." There has simply been NO argument FOR such belief that holds water and or makes sense.....thus, we SUSPEND judgement and or assent to belief. Theism (for better or worse) is added to the default human condition. The reason this is hard for a lot of people to see is because it's so popular. Another reason probably has to do with the fact that for most of us, theism (Christianity) has been with us for as long as we can remember. It's hard to see it as added when it's always been there. It's hard to see it as in addition to the default when its sheer popularity makes it the norm. Believers are programmed; hard-wired, to think that "everyone believes in something" and simply can't comprehend a LACK of belief in a god. Christian Fundamentalists because they are diametrically opposed to the furthering of civil rights in this country and are hell-bent on destroying the walls of separation between church and state. No matter how they voice it, they want this country to be under the laws of the 10 Commandments and their specific interpretation of "God's Word", the Bible. There are no compromises there! Under a total theocracy which they desire, Women will lose their civil rights. Homosexuals will lose their civil rights. Education in public schools will come under the domain of Bible-believing, creationist teaching, anti-science, anti-intellectual theists. And who knows what they have in mind for atheists?. Maybe the rack and stake?. Immigrants will be unwelcome. Courts would be dominated by Bible-believing theocrats, rewriting and trashing the Consitution at every turn. Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson or the equivalent would be in hog heaven and possibly even be President of the United States, fer gawd's sake.  |
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Date: 9/16/2003 8:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
If the USA lost its Wall Of Separation, would the Churches sit back down, say "That's a job well done", and retire from public life? Or would we suddenly see a surge in laws against blasphemy, heresy, abortion, euthanasia and non-Christianity in general? Would we see a Christian Utopia, where happy smiley people love their neighbours like unto themselves, or something resembling Europe in the Dark Ages, where neighbours spy on each other, monitor Church attendance and burn books in the street? If America loses the Wall, don't expect the relationship between church and state to be any different than centuries ago. Is this paranoia and scare mongering, or is it an attempt to learn from history? Keeping Church and State separate seems to be a hard, continuous struggle in America today, but it is necessary for the preservation of the rights of not only the non-religious, but the religious as well. If the Wall falls, liberties and lives will be lost - not just lawsuits.  |
Date: 9/16/2003 10:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
I agree.  |
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Date: 9/16/2003 10:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
I agree with your post that is... very insightful. |
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Date: 9/17/2003 8:54:00 AM
From Authorid: 54987
Absolutely Shadow Ghost... the voice of reason. We must guard against the loss of freedom to worship how we wish. Yes we would experience a new dark ages, full of Tammy Faye Bakkers. |
Date: 9/17/2003 11:30:00 AM
From Authorid: 51070
I read somewhere that Dubya made a comment against Wiccans. He said: "I don't think Witchcraft is a religion. I would hope the military officials would take a second look at the decision they made." He said this whilst governor of Texas in 1999 while being interviewed by ABC's Good Morning, America. He didn't approve of Wiccan soldiers being given the same religious rights as others in the miliary. I personally think that the government can have religious people in it just as long as they don't force it on people and oppress others. What Bush said was really bigoted.  |
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Date: 9/17/2003 5:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 13283
Wicca is a religion . I dont think Bush should be doing that , even though I like him . Razzy aka |
Date: 9/17/2003 6:02:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Jesus Freak good post, makes ya wonder huh? Razzy, I agree with you.  |
Date: 9/17/2003 6:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 41067
A government should cater to all or none.  |
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Date: 9/17/2003 6:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Thinker for someone that has supposedly suspended Judgment, ya sure cant tell it by what you write. You have not suspended judgement, you JUDGE religion every day, by saying its lies, hogwash, delusional and all those choice words you use everyday. So see you DO have a belief system, its a big HUGE belief that God does not exsist. If you suspended Judgement on it, Then you would have NO opinon. And of course we find that to NOT be the case.v. sus·pend·ed, sus·pend·ing, sus·pends To cause to stop for a period; interrupt,To render temporarily ineffective or to defer, To put off; postpone. *judgment also judgement*The capacity to form an opinion by distinguishing and evaluating.An assertion of something believed,A court act creating or affirming an obligation"" So given the dictionary meanings of these words. You have not suspended judgement. For you believe there is no God, you have said it many times. Atheism , Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods. The doctrine that there is no God or gods."" NOne of that looks like suspended judgement to me. Nor do your words on these posts for these past two years, sound like supended judgement. IT sounds more like a belief system that you have determined as truth. |
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Date: 9/17/2003 6:19:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
OR koolade, we could find our self with a leader that acts like hitler. Then not only would the jews be dead but the christians too. |
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Date: 9/17/2003 6:20:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Tandris that is true, it should cater to all under the constitution, but it does not. As I see more and more christian liberties, going out the back window. |
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Date: 9/17/2003 7:04:00 PM
From Authorid: 54987
FB give it time... give it time. As I said before ... the female dog that spawned Hitler is in heat again. Update... he's already here! |
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Date: 9/17/2003 7:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
FIRSTBORN....the whole thing has been fully explained to you so MANY MANY times; you can't understand it; so what is one to do? I am quite certain that many get sick of hearing the same things over and over again, you know. Here you go again now: I suspend judgement on the question of WHETHER THERE IS A GOD. Understand that? OK, now.....what I do not , have not, and will not suspend judgement on is: HYPOCRISY!! LIES and DECEIT by those who run around loudly telling everyone how they "love the Lord Jesus" at the same time! It makes no difference, really, WHAT anyone believes in; doesn't mean diddly to ME. What DOES matter is that they do not try to force, coerce, or change the laws so as to make ME or everyone believe THEIR way!! Do YOU understand , since I have tried to make it so simple and basic as I possibly can??? Deb, I know good and well I have made these same statements to you sooooooooooooooooo many times on USM!! You just make yourself look really......_________!! Please, please, let's stop boring the you-know-what out of people! OK?please?? |
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Date: 9/17/2003 7:33:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
and....Firstborn, YOU LIE! You lie when you say that I said that "atheism is denial of the existence" and YOU LIE when you say that I said "atheism is a doctrine that there is no god or gods". LIES! Again, you do not understand. You don't want to understand; so all one can do is try to run around and TRY to do damage control from all your slander and lies. |
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Date: 9/17/2003 7:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Koolade, I have no doubt. |
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Date: 9/17/2003 7:41:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Tell it to the dictionary thinker. Everything a christian says is lies according to you, LOOK IT UP> |
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Date: 9/17/2003 7:46:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Actually thinker, this is the whole thing, "" TYPE IN YOUR WORD & CLICK GO! Dictionary Now you can have our dictionary on your computer! Click Here for the Pronunciation Key a·the·ism (click to hear the word) (th-zm) n. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods. The doctrine that there is no God or gods. Godlessness; immorality. "" BUT I was trying to spare your feelings.http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/a/a0495200.html |
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Date: 9/17/2003 7:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Atheism is NOT denial of a god belief; but simply the absence of theism; a LACK of belief in gods SINCE THERE HAS BEEN NO ARGUMENT THAT HOLDS WATER OR MAKES SENSE. (For most of us,atheism is not the denial that gods exist, but simply the lack of a god belief; only a FEW GO so far as to say no gods exist.) In this sense, atheism is the way we distinguish ourselves from theists, and in every other respect we are just like anybody else. Most of us think it is the theists who are different, it is the theists who have added a belief to their outlook. If you can see the various beliefs that gods exist as something additional to the common human outlook, and then see atheism as the simple absence of that additional belief, you will have a pretty good idea why it is difficult to describe atheists as a group. People are trained, and indoctrinated; and flat-out brainwashed with regards to ANYONE who doesn't have a belief in gods (for many years I was included in that!); and many will cling to that FALSE teaching and thinking NO MATTER WHAT. So if any of you who HAVE got it; understand it; and are bored by those who DON'T get it...I'll just suggest you just skip all this. Heck, many times I sure wonder why I even bother.....(well,for a few seconds anyway) to continually try to get someone to at least UNDERSTAND and accept what someone thinks, believes and to above all, just be honest in all discussions, debates, but for some.....it is clearly an impossibility. I simply am compelled to make sure for the record, to present the facts. Truthfulness IS my NUMBER ONE priority; no matter WHAT. When one takes that stand; there are MANY who will harrass, harangue; slander and misquote; ANYTHING to bring you down...will do anything to portray their opponent as the "evil satan" but then turn right around and say "God Bless" or "Jesus Loves you".....and think nothing of it. |
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Date: 9/17/2003 8:03:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Deb! give it a rest, eh!??? THAT whole dictionary thing HAS ALSO BEEN explained to you!!!!!!!!!!! I would; I would go into a long explanation here, AGAIN, but like I said it has been done before; you either don't understand something; don't read it, or can't help yourself Deb, whatever. You bore me with your constant rehash of the same old statements , same arguments; and same old claims. |
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Date: 9/17/2003 8:03:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
The dictionary is not misquoted and I gave the url for all that wish to go look it up can look it up. OH and I forgot this part,""[French athéisme, from athée, atheist, from Greek atheos, godless : a-, without ; see a-1 + theos, god; see dhs- in Indo-European roots.] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by the Houghton Mifflin Company." So if your after TRUTH, then why not click on it and read it for your self. |
Date: 9/17/2003 8:04:00 PM
From Authorid: 22080
i dont mind religous politicians, i dont mind some religon in the government(as long as its not biased) but i do mind a the government claiming a religon over another  |
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Date: 9/17/2003 8:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
No thinker, its just that you are like some christians. YOU believe in athesiem the way YOU think it is, and it doesnt matter what another source says that it is. |
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Date: 9/17/2003 8:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Jestr I'm with you, the government can not nor should it proclaim a state religion. |
Date: 9/17/2003 8:09:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
no, the government can never be truly free from religion and it shouldn't  |
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Date: 9/17/2003 8:23:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
NO, Deb, YOU are like MANY of the hypocritical Christians who THINK .....THEY know better the atheists do; about what exactly it is that WE believe. And, you're right, it doesn't matter what lying, twisting, manipulating theists say about US, for it is always lies and slander and with nothing of any substance of their own to back anything up. You and your "friends" have clearly shown that you would dearly love to return to the stocks and the chains of the Inquisitions and the Crusades, the Middle Ages; and you show your desperation and frustration and fear, that your LONG HELD position of being the dominant majority in America might slip away and you hate it that there are those who are turning the tables on ; and refusing to take the theocracy minded garbage any more. You cannot stop education! You cannot stop SCIENCE! You cannot stop progress. Since the start of Christianity, the fundamentalists have tryed to hide; suppress, deny and obliterate the skeptic; the infidel; the unbeliever. |
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Date: 9/17/2003 9:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ wake me later. |
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Date: 9/17/2003 9:10:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Who wrote the Merriam-Webster's definition? A preacher wrote that definition! And you know why he wrote it that way? To make it easier to slander atheists -- because hardly any atheists have believed the way this preacher accuses us of believing, and particularly the way you the theists interpret it. A few here and there, but they're the exception rather than the rule. It hasn't been that long since the word "A-theist" was even used; as before it was referred to infidels; freethinkers; and not many people even knew HOW to define the word; as they didn't KNOW. They just accept the theists definition. And no atheist would define atheism from the standpoint of presupposing that a god exists and then saying that an atheist is someone who denies this "fact." A dictionary -- a reference book -- ought to simply report the theism-atheism discussion in an unbiased manner. No dictionary worth consulting would ever take sides in a controversial argument. Meanwhile, atheism, as most atheistic writers and philosophers have used the term (and we ought to know because it's OUR word), means "without theism." In other words, we are simply human and have not added to our humanity the belief that gods exist. That's all. Merriam-Webster's also says that wickedness is a synonym for atheism. Do you believe that garbage!? (of course you do!) If Merriam-Webster's is so authoritative, then let's see what they say under the word GOD: Ah! "god" (lowercase, not uppercase) "the supreme or ultimate reality" (everything else in reality is not quite as real?). M-W continues: "the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe" (so since He's the ruler, he has me under control, and I don't need you -- I'm doing exactly what He wants me to do because He is the ruler of the universe: do you believe that?) "the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit." Principle!? Is this what you think "God" -- er, "god" is? It's in the dictionary, I tell you! Merriam-Webster's said it, so it must be true! "God" is a principle, not a being! Truth is, Merriam-Webster's is published by the Christian Science Church, and is widely criticized even in Christian circles as being very biased in its definitions for theological terms. Microsoft Encarta World Dictionary (the hard-back, not the software) is much more fair in its definitions for all theological terms, including the word atheism. Microsoft's Encarta simply reports what the two sides in this argument have to say, and does not take sides at all (even though its publisher, Bill Gates, is an unabashed, out-of-the-closet atheist). |
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Date: 9/17/2003 9:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Deb, that "wake me later" is just another way of saying "I AM STUPID AND I LIKE IT; I WILL NOT READ, LISTEN, OR PAY ATTENTION TO ANYTHING FROM ANYONE IF IT IS IN DISAGREEMENT" |
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Date: 9/17/2003 9:27:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
oh yes, one more thing, Miss Deb....remember your insistence that YOU know all about what those symbols, the eye, the pyramid, etc, that is on the back of currency means? You said it was Pagan? WRONG!!! I got this straight from the State Department: The symbols on the backside of the dollar bill have inspired all sorts of conspiracy theories, but the official explanation is that: The partially built pyramid with an eye on top comes from the reverse side of the Great Seal. The pyramid is said to symbolize strength and durability. It is unfinished to indicate that the country will forever be a work in progress----growing, building, improving. The eye is all seeing, indicating DIVINE guidance. The words "annuit Coeptis", hovering above the pyramid, translates as: "God has favored our undertakings." Underneath the pyramid are the words "Novus Ordo Seclorum", meaning "A New order of the Ages." |
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Date: 9/17/2003 9:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
A new order or the ages, is purely, new age religon, which my dear is pagan. AND while I might not be able to stop science, YOU can not stop God.Definition atheist [Show phonetics] noun [C] someone who believes that God or gods do not exist http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?dict=CALD&key=4607&desc=atheism&ph=on 3 entries found for atheist. a·the·ist ( P ) Pronunciation Key (th-st) n. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.atheist \A"the*ist\, n. [Gr. ? without god; 'a priv. + ? god: cf. F. ath['e]iste.] 1. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God, or supreme intelligent Being. 2. A godless person. [Obs.] Syn: Infidel; unbeliever. Note: See Infidel. atheist adj : related to or characterized by or given to atheism; "atheist leanings" [syn: atheistic, atheistical] n : someone who denies the existence of god http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=atheist Sorry THINKER, but its doesnt seem to matter if the dictionary was written by a christian or not, they all seem to say the same thing. I doubt you read what I say, so basically your saying you will not read, will not listen or pay attention. Its sad. But hey I'm done here, so have fun. Its bed time for me. |
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Date: 9/17/2003 9:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Sorry, Deb, AGAIN: it is precisely BECAUSE I DO read; I DO pay attention, and I DO LISTEN, that led me to where I am and what I think or believe. Unlike YOU; who stubbornly clings to that which your religion and the theologians/clergy and your creed says. So go on back to sleep now.....and then come back another day, and start the whole thing all over again, eh? *wink* Good night! |
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Date: 9/18/2003 8:22:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
YEp, ok, right. BUT to answer the question, no government will never be free of religion. |
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Date: 9/18/2003 10:26:00 AM
From Authorid: 41067
Sure, its only the christians who are hard done by. Sorry, don't think so FB. |
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Date: 9/18/2003 12:02:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Correction, FB; Goverment CAN and SHOULD be NEUTRAL when it comes to religious matters; but it is the PEOPLE who must have and will always have; and will always NEED their religious beliefs. |
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Date: 9/18/2003 12:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Tandris, I guess we have our own opinion on that matter. Thinker, well so far it hasnt been neutral, nor will it be. Guess what? The government is made of , oh guess what?? PEOPLE |
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Date: 9/18/2003 4:33:00 PM
From Authorid: 22080
ok im coming into this debate neutral, the government as elitist as it is, is made up of the people, the government as a whole should be neutral but a single politician should be allowed by his/her rights as an american to say "god bless" and such |
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Date: 9/18/2003 5:38:00 PM
From Authorid: 41067
Very good point Jestr. Its the difference between having their own beliefs, and enoforcing those beliefs onto others through law that gives greater rights to some people than to others that should not be there. |
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Date: 9/19/2003 9:03:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
well if it were a wiccan president I dont think anyone would come unglued when he/she said, blessed be. We all have the right to free speech and NOTHING should be forced on anyone. But religion will never be far from government as the government consist of people and their opinion and they will vote the way their heart and or beliefs are. |
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Date: 9/19/2003 9:03:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
and I'm not just saying christians here, but any religouse sect. |
Date: 9/20/2003 6:41:00 AM
From Authorid: 28363
if you take what people say personally, then you swallow their poison. But personal attacks (like calling people liers) should not be tolerated by the admins of Usm. A nation is composed of its constitution, current demographic makeup, including its historical links (i.e religion, for example). Are the majority opinions expressed on this post, those of the overall population? Maybe.. maybe not.  |
Date: 9/22/2003 4:19:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 52140
Thanks for all your opinions! Its helped. Im learning more and more. Koolade, Im slowly absorbing. You have to remember, I've been so... 'cold' to learning anything new for so long, its like I have to have a lil 'heat' (knowledge) at a time. Thanks for your replies though.  |
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Date: 9/23/2003 9:22:00 PM
From Authorid: 41067
Sure, I wouldn't care if that was all he said, just as I don't care if a person says God Bless, or any other little thing like that. Its when they atart telling others that this is what they should be saying too that I get riled. |
Date: 9/28/2003 1:48:00 PM
From Authorid: 61188
I think it would be very very very hard for a government set up without any regard for religion. Think about some of the laws we have. In my opinion The Ten Commandments are the foundation the laws are made on. Moral values are often taken into consideration when making laws and common rules for our people, and moral values are often taken from the Bible. So much of what we believe now is dirived from the Bible, that if we threw all of our Laws that have anything to do with something from the Bible in it our Nation would probably be total chaos (in my opinion). .::.Rachel.::.  |
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