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Date: 8/2/2003 6:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 40979
I think of it like this. We try to make things happen when we do magic. So in other words we are trying to play God. There is only one God and we will never be like him. He is perfect. He died for us.  |
Date: 8/2/2003 6:19:00 PM
From Authorid: 58030
that's a very good question, and my answer is going to be because people were scared of it, think about it anything new or different was once "satan's" seizures were a sign of someone being possesed, anything even remotely witchy could get you tortured and burned, my answer is the church was scared, and that they wanted control  |
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Date: 8/2/2003 6:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 60052
I don't think using magic is a sin as long as you are not using it to hurt anyone. I don't know why some Christians think it is. Just to make things clear, I don't claim any religion, yet I am not an athiest. I believe there is a higher power, but am still at a point in my life where I am trying to figure this out for myself. So, let's look at this logically, and see where it takes us. In the dictionary, Magic is defined as 1. The art that purports to control or forecast natural events, effects, or forces by invoking the supernatural. 2. The practice of using charms, spells, or rituals to attempt to produce supernatural effects or control events in nature. 3. The exercise of sleight of hand or conjuring for entertainment. a miracle is defined as An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God: “Miracles are spontaneous, they cannot be summoned, but come of themselves” In other words, in order for it to be magic, a human has to do it, in order for it to be a miracle, we don't know who or what caused it, so it must be God. According the the "official" definitions concerning magic versus miracle, since non-Christians aren't sure who/what created the Earth, I guess it's creation cannot be considered either magic or miracle. What do you think?  |
Date: 8/2/2003 6:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 16705
to me magic is not a sin. it has nothing to do with GOD whom you should never question but you know yourself that anyone who has made it is only out for the money. tell you what i'll trade my monthly income with a famous magician and see how they live on $572.00 a month. Hamb918  |
Date: 8/2/2003 7:17:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
Thanks for the replies everyone. I just see it like this..anything in this world has a name that we ascribe to it..the definitions for these names were also brought about by humans..therefore things are only what we make of them right???  |
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Date: 8/2/2003 7:27:00 PM
From Authorid: 60052
I could agree with that. |
Date: 8/2/2003 7:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
LOL at Hamb. Author, we use language to communicate, i.e., in order to be understood. Now when someone comes here and defines "magic", as To Die For has, and it (the definition) possibily doesn't correspond to what it is that you, the poster of this debate, is describing, then you need to insert your own definition as to what you think magic is. How else do we understand each other? The definition of magic as so given by To Die For and the definition of miracle are not congruous. Magic is clearly defined as "the practice . . . used to ATTEMPT TO PRODUCE (my emphasis) supernatural events" while a miracle IS AN EVENT. That is not the same thing. O.K. you say, what if someone "does" a magic spell and the intended result occurs. I ask: Is that the "magic" of the person doing the spell that caused that to occur? God Bless.  |
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Date: 8/2/2003 7:48:00 PM
From Authorid: 60052
Ok Deb, so are you saying that it is considered Magic (the attempt to produce something supernatural) until the desired effect is accomplished, and then after it is accomplished, it becomes a Miracle (the Event)? |
Date: 8/2/2003 8:09:00 PM
From Authorid: 49101
Well, I see it this way. Christians see it as wrong or "Sinful" because in thier religion it is believed to be the work of the "Devil" but if you don't believe in God or the Devil, then it doesn't apply to you as being a "sin". Now lets take prayer groups for example, in direct response to your question. If a group of people are praying to the "Almighty" with all their might, and the prayers are answered, is that not also trying to influence the outcome of a situation? If a church group prays EVERY NIGHT for a woman to be cured of cancer is it not (allow me to borrow) """"the practice . . . used to ATTEMPT TO PRODUCE (my emphasis) supernatural events"""" ???  |
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Date: 8/2/2003 8:13:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
That was the point of my posting this debate Deb..the fact that everyone has a different opinion or definition as to what something is..so how can anyone classify it as right or wrong..that should be up to the individual, not the masses. |
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Date: 8/2/2003 8:19:00 PM
From Authorid: 60052
So, Miss C, the act of praying could be considered practicing magic (if we keep to the definition in the dictionary) because it attempts to produce a supernatural effect or change the course of nature? I just don't know what to think about that. |
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Date: 8/2/2003 8:22:00 PM
From Authorid: 49101
By Jove I think She's Got It! lol, yes, that is precisely what I believe. I also believe that miracles and magick are all produced from individual energy sources, not outside ones. Hence, they are the same. |
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Date: 8/2/2003 8:25:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
Exactly!! That is my understanding is that the energy to produce magic comes from within first..but also can be drawn from things like trees and the earth and everything around us.... |
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Date: 8/2/2003 8:35:00 PM
From Authorid: 60052
Okay, so here goes. I don't want to make anyone mad with this, but from what you guys are saying, it sounds "plausible" to me that Jesus was a magician. He did things that caused supernatural events (miracles). So magic shouldn't be a bad thing for Christians after all.... |
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Date: 8/2/2003 8:39:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
Thank you!! That is all that I'm saying..I mean, we see magicians like David Copperfield and the like perform illusions all of the time and to our eyes, they look absolutely real..yet they are not..so couldn't some things have been illusion and others been simple harmless magic drawn from the energy around him?? So why should it be considered a sin to perform magic?? |
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Date: 8/2/2003 8:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 60052
Geez, where are all the Christians when you need them? LOL |
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Date: 8/2/2003 8:46:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
LOL..you don't need them To Die For..you're doing fine!! |
Date: 8/2/2003 8:58:00 PM
From Authorid: 56990
hmm Im not Christian but Im a Muslim,,,But my relegion's point of view about this issue is quite similar.It is as a matter of fact considered a sin in Islam.Why? Because its seeking help from a supernatural power other than God.In other words we are saying that this creature is better than God and can prevent the fate that our creator have made. Get my point ?? Also Magic is rarely used for good causes.Mostly its used to harm others,and I've seen cases!One is my aunt who aborts whenever she gets pregnant,because her husband's X wife bewitcheD her or smth. This is soo absurd :S |
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Date: 8/2/2003 9:10:00 PM
From Authorid: 49101
Dreamz, magick can not harm you if you don't allow it to. And I am sorry to tell you this, (Ok I am not sorry) but No, MOST magick is done for Good. |
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Date: 8/2/2003 9:17:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
But, if we are to believe that God exists inside of everything..then ultimately we would be drawing the power from him right??? |
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Date: 8/2/2003 9:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 49101
I don't believe in God. I do believe something my grandfather once said when I was a little girl, "As You Believe, Shall Be". I think the soul is just a concious being, and our bodies is where they are for the Moment. When the body dies, the sould moves on to another state of conciousness. But again, that us My personal belief, not a religion. |
Date: 8/2/2003 10:21:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Magic is man's name and definition for performing the unbelievable or unthinkable. For Christians, magic is trying to control or manipulate things for your own desires and not Gods, which is wrong. Magic is man's way of trying to be God or do as only should do. It's one thing if a person is born with what seems to be a "magical gift," a healer or such because their gift is given from God for the purpose of allowing God to heal through them. If a healer uses their gift for selfish means, it's considered a sin even though their gift is naturally given by God. Christians believe that God must be given credit for all miraculous events, since he is the only true creator of miracles. God creates miracles and sometimes uses man as his vessel. Magic is something man creates in an attempt to be or control something or someone that he's not entitled to control.  |
Date: 8/2/2003 10:23:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
typo, my 3rd line down should say..... ^^^^^ "as only GOD should do.  |
Date: 8/2/2003 10:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 13897
You Choose- if I pick up a fork and throw it across the room, I manipulated energy to do what I want. If I mentally picked up a fork and threw it across the room, I manipulated energy as well. If I didn't hurt anyone in the process, why is it bad? If I put an ad in the Classifieds to get a date, is that bad because I'm doing something to better myself? If I magically helped myself get a date (not anyone in specific, just generally) by doing some spell, it's the same thing... It's just presenting myself to the world better. With or without magic, people do things to better themselves and there is nothing wrong with that, if it doesn't hurt anyone in the process. So why shouldn't people do anything for themselves? Why leave it all up to God to do? (If you believe in god) S/he gave men and women the ability to do things for themselves.. Why is that such a bad thing? Author- good post!  |
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Date: 8/2/2003 10:59:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
Thank you Magenta Blue..and You Choose for joining in!! |
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Date: 8/2/2003 11:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
MagentaBlue.... when I was referring to doing things for themselves, I was referring to selfishness. Selfishness in a Christian perspective, isn't considered a good thing. |
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Date: 8/2/2003 11:01:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
Miss C..thank you for your comments as well.. |
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Date: 8/2/2003 11:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 13897
Not all magic is selfish. and that is what i was trying to point out. |
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Date: 8/2/2003 11:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
MagentaBlue... To christians it is because "magic" is what humans do to try to gain control or to manipulate something for their own gain. To me, that equals selfishness therefore, it's sinful in my opinion. Christians believe that we should put our trust in God, not in works or magical prospects. |
Date: 8/3/2003 12:04:00 AM
From Authorid: 3125
I am wondering exactly what is meant when one claims they can do magic? What can anyone really do that can cause things to happen out of the ordinary? I have heard some talking about doing magic, but I haven't seen any examples. I have challenged a few people who claimed they could do magic to show me what they are talking about..but..no one has yet.  |
Date: 8/3/2003 12:16:00 AM
From Authorid: 35720
Since when was magic a sin?  |
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Date: 8/3/2003 1:06:00 AM
From Authorid: 13897
Umm.. but You Choose, doing something for one's own gain is not bad- it is not selfish. Let's say you're going to school to educate yourself just for your own purposes. Is that selfish? I'm just trying to point out that it's not always selfish to do things for one's self. Selfishness is ONLY thinking of yourself. How does magic make someone ONLY think of themselves? Especially if they're doing it for someone else? I'm sorry, but I really think your logic has a hole in it. |
Date: 8/3/2003 1:18:00 AM
From Authorid: 19092
Hocuss Pocuss, that's all it is...If it's not from God then it's from the opposition...You know what that is...  |
Date: 8/3/2003 2:10:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
19092 - No. It could be from a number of things, other beings if they exist. Not just God or Satan as not everyone shares your beliefs.  |
Date: 8/3/2003 7:45:00 AM
From Authorid: 54111
Magic is sin, in the christians eyes, it is not of god. LOL Rusure. I been wondering the same thing. I guess you have to believe in it, which means we won't ever see it. Only "magic" I really seen was on TV. But we all know that it ain't nothing but a bag of tricks.  |
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Date: 8/3/2003 11:12:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
O.K. I asked a question but didn't get it answered. No, To Die For, that is not what I was getting at. If you define magic as a person's attempt to produce supernatural events and those events occur, I am asking if you give credit to the "magic" that was performed to the one performing the magic? If your idea of magic is to go through some ritual while asking God (or whatever you refer to the Supreme Being as) to have this occur, I just want to know what it is that you are considering magic. So, then I see Magneta Blue come here and say she can "mentally" throw a fork across the room and RUSURE asks for a showing of this and there is no response to her. Author, if the purpose of this post was for you to define magic as you use it, we still haven't seen that. If you think the "word" that is used is going to make it "right" or "wrong", then I need to know what you are considering magic. Because from what I see and read, there are people who will use the word "magic" in place of the word "prayer" and have the intent of a prayer in their minds, but for whatever reason they have, they prefer to use the word "magic" to "prayer" as if "prayer" was something to be shunned due to the "Christian" connotations. God Bless. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 11:50:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
God said, 2 Chronicles 33:6 And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger. Malachi 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers. And he said, :Micah 5:12 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thine hand; and thou shalt have no more soothsayers:' This is where it comes to what God said about NOT having any other gods before him. When we tap into a power that is not from God, just as King Caspain said, that power if from the other side. I'm not saying there isnt any power from the other side, oh yes, I've seen it myself. Lots of times it is use for evil and not good but even when using it for good, its still tapping into something that is not God the creator. God says its a sin because we are going against one of His commandments, plus the fact is that while a person that is tapping into this other power THINKS they have control and that this power is working for them, eventually the giver of the power has them under control and God knows that this other power only comes to kill, steal and destroy, therefore he warns us about it. BUT there has never EVER been an instant when dealing with these that have tapped into this other power, that When the name of Jesus is used against it their power fails every time, because GOD is the highest power. I like sticking with the highest power. Amen  |
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Date: 8/3/2003 11:58:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
Yes Firstborn, based on YOUR BELIEFS. Other religions do not share them, because God is not the highest power nor does he even exist to them. It is faith, God is as powerful as you believe him to be. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 12:12:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
The author of this post asked why majic was a sin, then the author spoke of God and of Jesus. I explained according to my beliefs, so what is your problem today??? I'm trying to stick to the subject of the post and STILL you have some smart remark to say. Geeze talk about intolerance. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 4:40:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
MagentaBlue, I've already explained why Christians view magic or trust in that as a sin. Christians shouldn't put their faith into faulse promises or idols and in the Bible.... magic and anything that's associated with it that's not from God, falls into this category. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 4:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
RodTodd.. the Author asked why CHRISTIANS view magic as a sin so What KC said is exactly the issue and therefore our religious beliefs do apply here. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 4:46:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
FB and Deb... good explanations there, I agree. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 5:41:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
Yes..I was asking why Christians consider magic to be a sin..because the way they think of magic is obviously different from the way others of us think about it. For example..I would think that magic and miracles are basically the same thing..the words could be interchangeable according to how one views the act of magic. Like I said earlier..a word and the definitions for that word were ascribed by humankind when language began..therefore we assigned names and ascribed meanings..so to me either magic or miracle would be what the individual makes of it..just my opinion. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 5:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 13897
oh well i'm sorry I did not see Rusure's comment. and for the record, i was merely trying to demonstrate a point- I can not mentally throw a fork across the room. in fact, i do not practice magic at all. I was just trying to show that magic and doing things by hand can really be very similar, but i guess i did not get that across. oh well. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 6:02:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
The Bible is FILLED with all sorts of magic tricks; all over the place. For example, the following instance recorded in Genesis of the bargaining between Jacob and his father-in-law, Laban, as to the compensation Jacob should receive for his years of labor. It was decided that Laban give him cattle and goats. The division of the cattle was to be determined by the number of "brown among the sheep" and the "speckled and spotted among the goats." To increase one over the other, this was the method Jacob used. I quote Genesis, Chapter 30, verses 37 to 41: 37. And Jacob took him rods of green poplar, and of the hazel and chestnut tree; and pilled white streaks in them, and made the white appear which was in the rods. 38. And he set the rods which he had pilled before the flocks in the gutters in the watering troughs when the flocks came to drink, that they should conceive when they came to drink. 39. And the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought forth cattle ring-streaked, speckled, and spotted. 40. And Jacob did separate the lambs, and set the faces of the flocks toward the ring-streaked, and all the brown in the flock of Laban; and he put his own flocks by themselves, and put them not unto Laban's cattle. 41. And it came to pass, whensoever the stronger cattle did conceive, that Jacob laid the rods before the eyes of the cattle in the gutters, that they might conceive among the rods. All so simple! It is regrettable that Gregor Mendel, the geneticist, spent so many years in scientific research to determine the law of inherited characteristics, when all he had to do was to consult his Bible for this great biological secret! As a result of this Bible story which is based on the belief in sympathetic magic, there arose the superstition that if a child is born with a birthmark, it is because the mother, while pregnant, saw some object resembling the mark on the child. For instance, if a child is born with a long, discolored mark, it is explained that the mother was frightened by a mouse; if a small red mark appears on the child's body, it is explained that the mother had seen or eaten a strawberry. No matter what "mark" the child bore, the superstitious found an explanation for it in some object which a lively imagination considered it resembled, even though the mother might never have seen such an object during her period of gestation. What about the countless mothers who pass through frightful experiences, yet whose children are born without the slightest blemish? Also from this primitive belief has grown the superstition that a prospective mother who desires to have a beautiful child should look intently at a beautiful object! That this has been the cause of much mental agony is only too well known. Fortunately, however, educated people today no longer believe in the inerrancy of the Bible or in the influence of the mother's impressions on the unborn. "Magic is a sin"?? What a JOKE! Moses parting the waters, turning a staff into a snake; burning bushes, water into wine; walking on water, abba cadabbra! behold! The entire Bible was written by SUPERSTITITIOUS people who believed in MAGIC and the "miracle". People who could sit around and tell the most fabulous tales of magic and or miracle were considered a great storyteller, and held in high esteem, and many often feared the seers and soothsayers, and those who "SAW" such "visions"; witnessed such "Miracles" and "Magic". "Sin"? HA!  |
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Date: 8/3/2003 6:03:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
Don't apologize magenta blue..I completely understood what you were saying even if others do not. Your point was taken and understood and it made sense..regardless of the original question that I posed I appreciate ALL comments and examples used to strengthen your viewpoint..thanks for your response. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 6:08:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
Thinker..thank you so much for joining in and giving us those great examples..that is part of what I was speaking of in that the Bible is full of magical acts..does calling them miracles really change the fact that ordinary men performed tricks that today would be called magic?? Like I said..the terms are interchangeable in my opinion. |
Date: 8/3/2003 6:15:00 PM
From Authorid: 54532
People are just scared of it. Thats at least what I think.  |
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Date: 8/3/2003 6:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
I dont know why anyone calls it majic to begin with, both bible and the other force , its just supernatural spiritual power that makes it happen, we dont make it happen, but the powers that be use us as a vehicle. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 6:23:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
But is that necessarily true..I mean that powers that be use us as a vehicle?? Couldn't it just be that everything around us, and even our bodies themselves have untapped energy that we can learn to tap into and draw from..thus using that energy to make things happen?? |
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Date: 8/3/2003 6:27:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
Sorry hit submit a little soon there..that being said (my last comment) is it therefore a sin to use what is naturally there and available to achieve a desired result, so long as it is used for good?? I mean, some people may be born with a larger amount of that inherent energy which takes form in the ability to do things naturally without really trying..while others my have a latent ability that takes work and training to learn how to use effectively. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 6:30:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
To discuss this question rationally, we do well to first distinguish between the words: supernatural and paranormal and magic. The word supernatural implies that there may be entities who are somehow "above" or "beyond" nature (whatever that means). If you believe in the existence of angels or demons, if you attribute these things to a god, spirits, out-of-this-world entities, usually you call yourself a theist. Paranormal is something that occurs where there may or may not be a NATURAL explanation for such phenomena. MAGIC is the art of the ILLUSION. I've gone to many shows done by magicians; such as David Copperfield, and saw some far out stuff performed by Siegfried & Roy in Las Vegas. I remember jumping out of my skin when in a flash there appeared a HUGE Bengal tiger right before my eyes! That is SHOW BIZ! Very talented guys, and of coarse, everyone has their own guesses as to how the illusions or magic is achieved. And, don't forget the magic of Houdini. Why, if such magical tricks were available back in Biblical times, people would have thought these guys were gods! Magic=illusion=trickery. Even the Hypnotists use a lot of magic tricks. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 6:46:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
Exactly Thinker..and I personally believe that all of these things coexist, there is too much evidence of the paranormal and obviously magic and illusion exist as well..my only question would be as to the existence of gods and such, and I have another theory on that which is a whole other debate entirely..but I do believe in the paranormal.. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 6:51:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
The "magic" performed in the Bible wasn't performed by man but by God through man. Those aren't comparable to the "magic" performed by the average individual doing so for their own desires and through sources other than God. That is how many Christians differentiate these two scenarios. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 6:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Most Christians are well aware that the "paranormal" exists but it doesn't mean that it should be utilized in attempts to perform magic. That's what I was speaking about when referring to, "sources other than God." |
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Date: 8/3/2003 7:04:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Xylanthia, as to the "Miracle" question, here is a website that is very detailed; and the best I have read with regard to COMPLETE explanations. I highly recommend it. http://ohr.edu/special/books/gott/truth-6.htm |
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Date: 8/3/2003 7:13:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
So, if I am getting this straight author, you are asking why miracles are a sin. If you use the word magic and miracle interchangeably, then that appears to be your question. Because even though these words HAVE BEEN ASCRIBED MEANING as you have so stated, and those meanings have been shown to you to NOT mean the same, then are you saying you are entitled to come here and say they mean the same thing? What kind of confusion would that invoke? Who is going to UNDERSTAND you? That is your motivation for communication, isn't it? Or are you trying to confuse? If in your mind a miracle is the same as magic then what motivates you to use one word over the other? If your post had been entitled "Why Are Miracles a Sin??" would you have had these same responses? As far as the "powers that be" using the Biblical figures as HIS vehicle to have the supernatural happen (which, BTW, it is pretty well acknowledged by those figures in giving Him all the credit, regardless of whatever other type of rituals were present), and your response herewith, i.e., that "our bodies have untapped energy that we can learn to tap into and draw from", lead me to ask: Whenever you or Magenta Blue mentally get that fork flying across the room, will you give us all a look-see at that? God Bless. |
Date: 8/3/2003 7:23:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
LOL@ Deb's last line...  |
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Date: 8/3/2003 8:26:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
Sorry to disappoint Deb..but you haven't confused me and made me rethink anything here. My post is not with the intent to confuse or mislead..all that I AM saying is that to ME PERSONALLY, I feel that miracles and magic could be one and the same and thus the terms used interchangeably. I used the word "magic" because unlike other people, I recognize that others may not see it the same way and thus I wanted to get input regarding INDIVIDUAL feelings as to what each person's definition of magic is and WHY they would feel it is sinful. Then, I went on to elaborate about my definitions and feelings and why (again) I PERSONALLY feel the way I do. This was not meant to provoke nor cause any hostitlity..merely to debate the topic (hence why it is under the title DEBATE) anf have thoughtful discussions and to understand others views on the subject and possibly learn a little something in the process. Also..noone here claimed to be able to throw forks with their mind..it was given as an example to illustrate a point..it was a hypothetical alussion as to something that could THEORETICALLY be possible. I for one do think that it could be possible to do such things and much more..and I also don't believe that using magic or performing miracles is a sin or evil or makes anyone satanic or what have you. You don't believe the same way that I do and that is fine..but please don't come in here and pick apart pieces of what I say in order to lend yourself credibility..your honest opinion as to what you believe stated straightforward will be sufficient. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 8:47:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
BTW Deb..I do evry much appreciate you responding, just understand that I was posing a question and attempting to gain more understanding on the topic..what I don't appreciate is the sarcasm and scoffing nature of your post and the allusion that I am trying to confuse anyone..I have tried to be respectful to everyone within this post and take their viewpoints seriously and mull them over and possibly learn from them. I would appreciate respect being shown from others as well, I think that there was much mutual respect within this topic until your last comment. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 9:22:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
You forget, I didn't bring up the fork argument. It was presented along with another argument that looks sincere enough. Again, until or unless someone tells me that they don't seriously think that they can mentally throw a fork across a room, after giving it as an example of the subject matter being discussed, don't I have to go on with the supposition that they think they CAN mentally throw a fork across a room? God Bless. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 9:24:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
That's the point Deb..I really don't know how I would describe a miracle without using the word magic..I did answer that (albeit it may have seemed cryptic) by saying that I personally would judge them to being one and the same in essence. That could be because I have not done enough research on the matter..which I plan to do. I basically wanted to get others viewpoints in an attempt to maybe gain more understanding on the subject. I'm not saying that anyone is right or wrong..I'm just curious as to what others think. As far as the respect thing, I understand what you are saying and all..but I'm talking more in the sense of being respectful to others viewpoints..that is something that should be freely given, not earned. Respecting someone as a person and earning that is quite different from respecting their right to have viewpoints different from one's own. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 9:27:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
Sure..you have to go with that supposition..but she never said that she COULD do it, she merely stated that in her opinion it could be possible. There is nothing wrong with that or believing that it could be possible, it is an opinion. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 9:35:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
Also..as to your earlier question asking wheter I am entitled to come in here and say that they mean the same thing..as that is my personal understanding at this point in time and is just as valid as your interpretations of the two words. Are you any more entitled to give your understanding of the definitions as I am?? I think not..just because our definitions are not one and the same does not make each of our definitions any less valid..just different, and therefore open for debate. I am not getting all condescending and stating that my definition or understanding of the words or their meanings is correct, nor am I putting down anyone else for having a different opinion..I am merely being open to discussion. You on the other hand have come in and openly scoffed at others beliefs and poked fun at an innocent comment..I don't feel it is necessary. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 9:43:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
Sorry..one more thing, as I wanted to go back and find your original questions that you referred to that I didn't answer..I thought they were hypothetical and therefore didn't answer them earlier but I will now..I guess that my definition of magic would be the ability to draw from existing energy around and within ourselves and to manipulate that energy to perform an act. As to your second question: Is that the "magic" of the person doing the spell that caused that to occur? Answer: The magic would be the actual drawing of that energy to perform the desired act..the energy as I see it exists around and within us so yeah, I guess in a way it would be the magic of the person..but also the magic of the energy vessels around us. Hope this is a clear explanation of what I am trying to say..I think that the energy is caused by everyone and everything around us and is kind of like a "public pool" of energy that we all have access to..just that we all may not be privy of the knowledge to do so. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 10:26:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
Btw..Deb..regarding your comment about when Magenta Blue and I mentally throw a fork to let you have a look-see, cool I have no problem with that..but when you next have God and Jesus at your table as guests for dinner can I have an invite?? I've been waiting to see them for a long time.. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 11:23:00 PM
From Authorid: 13897
Deb- in response to your comment " Again, until or unless someone tells me that they don't seriously think that they can mentally throw a fork across a room, after giving it as an example of the subject matter being discussed, don't I have to go on with the supposition that they think they CAN mentally throw a fork across a room?" Will you PLEASE read over the comments again??? Before you stated that, i DID reply saying "oh well i'm sorry I did not see Rusure's comment. and for the record, i was merely trying to demonstrate a point- I can not mentally throw a fork across the room." So you can quit with your assumptions. Anyways.. don't you comprehend using somethig as a hypothetical example? Must you take everything so literally? |
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Date: 8/4/2003 1:55:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
Why must magic come from another source other than God or man? Psyhic abilities supposely come from humans, wouldn't some magic too be considered the case? |
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Date: 8/4/2003 2:47:00 AM
From Authorid: 13897
62118- i would like to know that as well. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 5:30:00 AM
From Authorid: 60052
I've become more confused than ever. Now don't get mad, I just want to straighten things out in my head here... I thought that in Christian religion, God created ALL things, so that being the case, wouldn't any magical spells/abilities also belong to God, and therefore be okay? Can anyone tell me some specific examples of how we are supposed to be able to tell if something was NOT created by God? Is there something in the Bible that tells us examples of how to tell. The reason I ask is because no one that I know has actually heard God speak to them, so how would we know if someone was performing miracles as God's vessel (like Firstborn said) or if they were acting on behalf of the devil? |
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Date: 8/4/2003 5:39:00 AM
From Authorid: 60052
Oh sorry, one more thing. I think it was You Choose that said the difference between magic and miracles is that God wills miracles and magic is willed by humans for selfish purposes? Here's what I got from that... it sounds like to me, tell me if I got this right, that Christians see magic spells/witchcraft as like a (forgive me for the terminology) a "cheat in the game of life". So you shouldn't try to acquire anything unless the game's creator gives it to you? |
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Date: 8/4/2003 10:48:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
Well! I was here for an hour this morning typing a response when my computer froze up and I lost it all. MIRACLE???? Or Magic??? (Just an aside, if it was "magic", then why am I back here?) Here it is in a nutshell: Magenta Blue, I did read all the comments. I know what was said and the order in which it was said. Now, perhaps, you should read the comments and see that this Author has stated that she thinks mentally throwing a fork across the room is something she can do with her magic. What she doesn't seem to understand is that if I saw a fork going across the room with no apparent natural occurence to have made it happen, I would call that a miracle. Author, I have no problem with anybody letting me know how they are using a word WITHIN ACCEPTABLE MEANINGS (e.g., as within the range given in a dictionary) and To Die For has given us the dictionary meanings, and yet you "personally" still want to make them mean the same things. In order to be understood, everyone has to be of the same understanding. I understand that you WANT to use these words interchangeably, but what you want isn't going to sway me when the acceptable meanings are not the same. Magic is defined (even by you in so many words) as THE PRACTICE of making something come about, while miracle is defined (NOT AS A PRACTICE/ATTEMPT/FOCUSING) as THE EVENT. What I basically hear you saying is that you prefer to use your terminology (i.e., "I perform miracles" vs. "I practice magic" because that is more palatable to you. Your post asks why magic is a sin. Why would you even care? If you are able to perform miracles/practice magic why don't YOU have God or Jesus at your dinner table since you are wanting to see them and surely you have the ability to focus on all this energy around you to get your desired result? And, To Die For, it is exactly the attributing of the miracle (the EVENT) to your own self vs. God which Christians point out is the crux of the sin by whatever name you give it. Yes, God does it ALL. If you need to attribute to Him the name "magician" in order to make sense that that type of event ("miracle" occurred by His Hand, then that is your own semantical exercise. For anyone to take the leap in logic into attributing a PERSON to having God-like abilities merely by the words they choose to use, all I can say is: GOD HAVE MERCY. God Bless. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 1:26:00 PM
From Authorid: 49101
Deb, if we had God Like Abilities I would have flooded this pathetic little planet Years ago. I think that those who continually bring up the "Fork" issue, nee to be a little more RATIONAL. Can't you see the point of a HYPOTHETICAL EXAMPLE? Now, IF I believed in the Fables Jesus Son Of God story, then SURE I would try to conjure him out to dinner. But in my mind he was but another prophet who practiced performing miracles/MAGICK. |
Date: 8/4/2003 1:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 62222
I think magic is considered a sin by some, not me of course, because I think it was forbidden knowledge given to humans by fallen angels. There are some angels who fell because they looked upon human women with desire and they took human women for wives and were judged and cast out. Their children were called the Nephilim, or something close to that.(at work without one specific resource I need to be sure) Each of these angels that fell taught specific things to men that they shouldn't have, like the working of metals, and the working of amulets and magic. Or rather I guess they taught humans how to use the ability that was already in them. I am assuming that this was knowledge that god had forbidden the angels to tell humans and so it classifys as sin. To some. This is what I have read. I will be more than happy to provide names of angels and site the sources tomorrow on the post. Oh, this is largely Jewish lore I think but the part about the angels falling is in the old testament. I will tell you where that is tomorrow too, or maybe another person can step in and tell you tonight. <regretfulhalo>  |
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Date: 8/4/2003 1:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 13897
Deb- the author claimed she could throw forks? I must be missing it, because i've read all of her comments and i do not see that anywhere. And see- you would call that event a miracle, but I know I would probably call it magic. We use two different words to explain one event, the same event. So i can see how the author views them to be very similar words. Also, To Die For has a good point there. how do you all know that "magic" is from someone other than god or man? |
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Date: 8/4/2003 2:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
The fork comment was in here, I too saw it but dont feel like going through all of the replies to find it again. However God tells us that there is a way to test the spirits and see if they are from God. Also I dont believe that Psyhic abilities come from humans. This stuff is basically called a word of knowledge and you have two sources that can give it to you. God the Father of Truth, or the other source. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 5:11:00 PM
From Authorid: 60052
regretfulhalo, I would definitely like to see your sources on the fallen angels and stuff to read up. I have heard people talk about this before but could never back it up with passages from the Bible. Deb, it is starting to sound like to me that it is okay to practice witchcraft, perform spells, ect. as long as you say God gave you the power, or that God did it. If you say that the source was anything other than God, then it is a sin, correct? Here is an example: If a relative of mine became terminally ill and I sought out a spell to perform to cure them, did exactly that, and they were "miraculously" cured because of the magic spell that I preformed, it would be sinful to say that I did it by myself. But if I said, "I performed a spell and called upon God to cure this person, and He did." it would not be considered sinful? |
Date: 8/4/2003 6:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
To Die For, I was quite adamant, wasn't I, in trying to get that same tidbit of information out of this author. I specifically asked that, and also stated that I have seen and heard some people say that magic is the equivalent to prayer. I was finally specifically told that that was NOT what she was referring to. Now you want to get into INTENT of the person claiming to be able to "cast spells" which is where I was from the very beginning. I do not know people's INTENT when they say "I performed a spell". Is it their intent that because they went through a certain ritual, that God cured their dying relative? Because that is total bunk in by book. God would cure the relative regardless of the "spell" being cast. ALL the doing/saying/chanting/praying to God ISN'T going to make an event occur if it isn't God's Will for that event to occur. THAT is what I am saying. Is that clear? I have also went through the whole arguement of language usage, and the connotations of "witchcraft" and "magic" and "spells" do tell me that anyone who prefers those words' INTENT is, and this author has verified it as such when speaking for herself, "personally". Now, Magenta Blue, (and Miss C for that matter), go CAREFULLY read this author's comment from 8/03/2003 at 8 6 P.M. Miss C your "rational" argument is geared toward the wrong person. Magenta Blue your comments about that being magic (i.e., the ability to mentally throw a fork across a room) then lead to the argument which RUSURE and I both put forth. If there ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE that perform magic, LET'S SEE THAT! Why, why doesn't this author put all her energies into mentally throwing a fork across the room I am sitting in right now! Heck, I'll even "focus all my energies" into her doing that. Hey, why don't we all pick a time where we can focus all our energies into this author mentally throwing a fork across the room, and see what happens. Game, anyone? God bless. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 7:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 13897
Deb- so what it seems like you're saying is that magic is not a sin because it doesn't really exist. it seems like you don't believe in anything magical, so why don't you just simply say that? |
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Date: 8/4/2003 7:48:00 PM
From Authorid: 60052
I'm sorry Deb, you did clear up the INTENT thing before, I just missed it. But I think I get it now. I can see both sides of it, and thinking about it now just makes my head hurt. It is hard for some one like me in a debate like this. I have never seen anyone perform a magic spell (ie: throw a fork across a room with their mind) and I have never seen a miracle. No one I know has ever been spared of a tragic event or serious illness or anything else I would consider a miracle. My life has been one catastrophe after another. If my life were to prove anything, it might prove that God (or whatever higher power there is) either has a personal vendetta against me, or doesn't exist at all. And then to make things worse, I see spirits and get visions of the future just to complicate matters more. Deb, you might say my gift/curse is from God, and the author of this post might say it was magic, whatever the case, it doesn't give me the power to change the outcome of my future or anyone else's. It doesn't allow me to change the past, it doesn't allow me to manipulate objects via telekenesis, it's just a pain in the butt. In most cases it leads to people telling me that I should be committed to a mental hospital. As I log this last entry in this debate, I leave you with the following: Whether you believe in God or not, just try to be the best person you can be. If there is ANY question in your mind that performing a spell is a sin, then DON'T DO IT! Try to make the best you can out of this life, it might be great, it might be crappy like mine, but it's the only one you got for now. Treasure the little things that bring you joy, learn from your mistakes, and try to not let the bad things run your life. Nothing in life is logical, the English language is just as faulty as we humans ourselves. No amount of definitions are going to clear up something like this. It's just what you believe, where you're faith takes you as to whether it is a sin or not. Everything you do in life has a consequence, be it good or bad. If you want to do magic spells, do them, but be prepared to take the consequence whatever it may be. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 7:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 49101
Because Magenta that would mean not believing in Miracles either. As for proof of people able to move things or break things with the power of thier minds, read up on Uri Gellar. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 8:10:00 PM
From Authorid: 13897
Miss C- that makes sense. it just sounded like Deb didn't believe in magic at all, so i brought it up. I'll have to look into what you suggested- sounds interesting. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 8:36:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
ToDieFor, I know you didn't direct your comments to me but I just wanted to say that you made some good points in your last comment. I can relate to some of the issues you brought up. As far as "your gift" you mentioned, that is a frustrating thing to deal with. You said you wonder why God would give you this gift since it can be more of a curse... I can tell you that I'm sensitive to certain things and have had some very unexplainable things happen to me also. I wonder why I have this "sensitivity" too but realize that it must have a purpose. God wouldn't give you a gift as punishment but I do believe we're all given different circumstances and traits for individual learning. Some of them may seem like a curse but may be necessary for individual lessons. I don't believe God causes bad things in our lives but I do believe that he allows them to happen in some cases. The reason for this is something only he can truly know. As a Christian, I believe that a gift should be used for God, to help others, not selfishly and that he receives all credit for the good deeds from it. I realize you don't have the same religious beliefs as me and I'm not trying to inforce them on you, just trying to tell you that you're not cursed. God doesn't curse people. The only true curses are from words and deeds that humans project onto each other through Satan. I wanted to tell you you're not alone. I've been through some very nasty stuff myself, as so many have. The one thing to remember is that things COULD ALWAYS be worse and we don't appreciate our lives until they take a further turn for the worse. God can only help you with your problems and with your gift, if he's in your life. He doesn't come barging into your heart, he simply knocks at the door, hoping you'll let him in. Sorry if I'm off the subject here. God bless |
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Date: 8/4/2003 9:27:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
Magic, being as we have been going through here ascertaining by both dictionary meanings and the meaning this author ascribes it, is the ATTEMPT TO PRODUCE a desired action, and I most wholeheartedly believe that exists. What I am saying here which you don't seem to be getting, Magenta Blue, is that I don't believe that any of these attempts do diddly squat in getting any result (desired or not) to occur. God Bless. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 11:00:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
What you seem to not be getting here Deb is that I never said that I personally could throw a fork or even perform any type of magic. As a matter of fact I have never even dabbled with it even a tiny bit. I had merely been reading posts throughout the course of the past few nights in which several Christians referred to magic as a sin. My mind started going and I merely posed the question in the course of this debate as to WHY it was considered a sin to them and posed a few examples and I did clearly ask in my initial posting of this debate what the difference between magic and a miracle was. I then went on throughout the course of this debate to say that I personally felt them to be one and the same BUT..I did not at any time say that just because I thought this way, that everyone else had to or that my definitions were the accepted ones. What I DID say in response to your question about being entitled to come in and say that they are one and the same was that I was just as entitled as anyone to state my personal opinion as to this being so. I clearly stated that you, among others, felt differentlyt and had another opinion and that you all as well were just as entitled as I to have your own definition that works for you. I said that this did not make anyone right nor wrong just showed that we have different opinions...what was so hard to comprehend about that that I needed to rehash it all?? It is all there to read for yourself..obviously you did not get what I was saying. Also..the comment that I made about having Jesus and God at dinner was a blatant jab back at you to show you how it feels to have someone take your personal belief and challenge you to show some proof of this...not very adult of me I know, and I usually try very hard not to resort to such tactics, so I apologize to the Christians here for having said something so disrespectful to you as it was not at all called for..borne out of frustration but still not very fair. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 11:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 49101
The Problem Deb with giving anyone proof that we or people are capeable if magick, is that works of Magick are a VERY private matter. And those who can get results understand the need for privacy. Therefore it can never be proven without a doubt because it is no ones business what a Witch or Pagan or Shaman do in thier Rites and ceremonies. |
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Date: 8/5/2003 12:05:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
Deb.. I also want to point out that I'm sure that it is very offensive to you when a non-Christian asks you to "prove" that God exists..this is something that you can not do..but you believe in him just the same..right?? Now, just because I believe that magic/miracles are possible does not mean that I can prove it either as I do not practice..yet I still believe it to be possible. The only reason that I have not tried it is because I am realistic enough to know that I can not guarantee what having this type of power at my disposal would be like. I am only human and although I would like to think that IF I had the ability to do such that I would use it in the right way..but I am only human and possess emotion, which as we all know is a wild card and can affect the way in which one reacts. The thought that I could possibly not use it in the correct manner is real enough to me that I would not attempt to practice magic. I AM only human after all.. The point of this debate was to find answers and honest opinions and possibly learn something, but now I am very much thinking that in light of the hostile air that you have brought to this debate and the way that you have treated myself and others, maybe I should have kept my questioning mind quiet and never posted the debate at all. I'm sorry now that I ever brought it up...thank you for the enlightening experience and the wisdom that you tossed my way. |
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Date: 8/5/2003 8:21:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
Like I said before, when people are all using different meanings for words and they have ascribed their own meanings to those words, then understandings are hard to come by, aren't they? And confusion is more prevalent, isn't it? Author, if it wasn't you you were speaking for in the "fork" scenerio, then who exactly were you speaking for? As far as me having Jesus and God at my dinnertable, I would invite the WHOLE WORLD to the banquet, so don't you worry about that. You see, evidence of my faith is not secret, is not private, is not just for myself. BTW, ToDieFor, I am someone, like You Choose, who can empathize with you. Keep your chin up. God Bless. |
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Date: 8/5/2003 9:44:00 AM
From Authorid: 62222
GENESIS 6:1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. . . . 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days -- and also afterward -- when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown. Okay that is the verse from Genesis that refers to the angels who fell because they desired human women. They have been called "grigori" by some texts, or "watchers". Their children were called the Nephilim. In the book of Jubliees they actually name the angels that fell. "The Book of Jubilees was written in Hebrew by a Pharisee between the year of the accession of Hyrcanus to the high priesthood in 135 and his breach with the Pharisees some years before his death in 105 B.C." (this is from a website that best described the book) Here are the names of the angels and the things that they "taught" to men after they fell, that they shouldn't have ever taught as sited from the book of Jubilees. Amaros: taught men the resolving of enchantments. Araqiel: taught men the signs of the earth. Azazel: taught men to work metal into weapons and jewelry. Baraqijal: taught men astrology. Ezekeel: taught men the knowledge of the clouds. (I knew it!! Meteorology is a sin!!) Gadreel: taught men how to use weapons of war that were forged by Azazel. KoKabel: taught men astronomy and the science of the constellations. Penemue: taught men to write, and this apparently unforgivable because men were never meant to know this. He also taught children the secrets of knowledge. Sariel: taught men the course of the moon. Semjaza: taught men enchantments and root cutting. Shamshiel: taught men the signs of the sun. These were apparently all things that men were not supposed to know or practices that men were not supposed to engage in, according to the Book of Jubilees, which I believe is an apocryphal book in Judaism..not real sure on that. But also in Luke it says to not turn to a wizard for any reason, as it will defile you but I can't remember which exact phrase it is. But this would be why Christians would consider magic evil (cause the bible says so) with a little Jewish lore (cause it is interesting) thrown in for support.<regretfulhalo> |
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Date: 8/5/2003 9:48:00 AM
From Authorid: 62222
Oh, Too Die For, there is a really good book out there called the "Dictionary of Angels: including the fallen ones" by Gustav Davidson. It is a VERY interesting book and it also has a HUGE bibliography to link you to other books reagrding the same material. You can get the book off amazon for a decent price. <rh> |
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Date: 8/5/2003 10:28:00 AM
From Authorid: 49101
Well if Pagans weren't chastized and run out of towns maybe thier religion wouldn't have to be a secret. |
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Date: 8/5/2003 3:45:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Right Miss C and the unbelievers use to dress christians up in a sheeps skin and then put them in the collisium to feed to the lions. Oh gee I feel like ya'll are such the persecuted ones. |
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Date: 8/5/2003 11:41:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
Deb..I have already gone over the fact that when magenta blue used the hypothetical example of the fork..I said that I believed it to be possible, I was not saying that I could do it. If you really NEED further clarification..when I said that I believe it is possible I am speaking in the terms that it could be done by someone who possesses the knowledeg and ability to do so. Now..if that is all cleared up can we PLEASE move on and just carry on with the discussion without all of these petty jabs??? The only reason that anything has been misunderstood in my opinion is because you take others words and pick certain phrases and turn them around in some attempt to make others look ridiculous. You asked for MY definition..I gave it and then you proceed to tell me that because my definition is not the "accepted" one that it does not count and that I am confusing people. I think that everyone BUT you is understanding me just fine as you are the only one not getting what I am saying. That being said..I am now willing to move on and continue this discussion in a rational manner..can we please agree to disagree?? regretfulhalo..thank you so much for finding that information on the fallen angels, it is quite interesting. |
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Date: 8/6/2003 4:36:00 AM
From Authorid: 49101
FB I am talking about things that go on today, everyday. Deb had mentioned how open and free Chritianity was, and how the religion is not private or secret. IF pagans could practice open and freely, without being chastized and amending my earlier comment, Without having Christianity rammed down our throats, MAYBE we could be more open about it. |
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Date: 8/6/2003 5:11:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
62222 - These practices and knowledge that the fallin angels taught men, why does the biblical God also tell men to do some of theses practices? If the knowledge is forbiden and unforgivable, why did God promote it? |
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Date: 8/6/2003 8:18:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
Listen, the subject of your post is "magic". I, once again, never brought up the example of the fork. It was brought into this post obstensibly to give an example of the "magic" we are discussing. I don't know what any person who practices magic THINKS they can do. You said you thought that and much more were possible. If this is NOT something a person that practices magic (again, using the word as it took us this long to define it, i.e., not talking about a "magician" who practices sleight of hand as that is another definition of the word magic), then why don't you give us some examples that, as some have brought up, are more RATIONAL. If you are REALLY attempting to discover other peoples' viewpoints on this topic "Why is magic a sin", then let's get some realistic examples up here to examine. God Bless. |
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Date: 8/6/2003 11:03:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
Actually..magenta blue used the fork example to illustrate that throwing it physically AND moving it through the air with ones mind are BOTH ways of manipulating energy..but that both have the same affect. I think that even though that particular example would be actually called telekinesis (since you want to be so specific), SOME people would still view it as a "form" of magic. That is why I initially asked people for their opinion as to what the difference between magic and a miracle is..because not all people think in the same way, we all see things differently. So although YOU would like it to be so simple and have us all conform to the "accepted" definitions it is quite frankly not that easy. We are all different and have diverse opinions and ascribe different meanings to things..that is the way "real" life is, hence why some see it as harmless and others view it as a sin (in certain situations). That is why you would define magic and miracle as two seperate things and others see it them as one and the same. Language is not as clear cut as you would like it to be, and that is because of the diversity of the human brain and individual thought. This is something you can not change.. |
Date: 8/7/2003 1:30:00 AM
From Authorid: 34814
The difference is a big black book full of a renamed and reworded fairy tale of garbage and that my friend is why they think that.  |
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Date: 8/7/2003 1:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
Language can be VERY CLEAR when used in a manner that is understandable. Since you cannot define "miracle" without using the word "magic", the manner in which you are using these words is unclear. Now, you have asked why magic is a sin, but not why miracles are not a sin. This is what I suggest you do. Put up another post asking why miracles are a sin, and see what kind of responses you get. See just how UNCLEAR that would be to most people, i.e., most people would respond with something to the effect of "why you would even ask that". You give no examples of what you think magic spells can accomplish, you do not put into your own words what you define as magic (I have seen the very definition you have given as far as the focusing of energy given in witchcraft books, meaning to me that you are merely parroting a definition without giving any of your own thoughts about that), you do not practice magic, and your idea that magic and miracle are the same thing just leads me to believe that you do not have a grasp of EITHER concept. Until and when you can even demonstrate that you know what you are talking about, how can you even ASK the above (i.e., the title of this post) question? God Bless. |
Date: 8/7/2003 2:46:00 PM
From Authorid: 12835
100....Its a miracle.....  |
Date: 8/7/2003 5:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 28363
I seem to recall Moses performing magic to best the Pharoah's magicians. Awesome question  |
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Date: 8/8/2003 12:25:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
See Deb..just when I thought we were getting somewhere you make a totally off the wall accusation and state that I am parroting a definition straight from a book on witchcraft!! I don't need to parrot anything thank you very much..I gave you a definition that came from my OWN thoughts, my brain is fully capable of functioning in the thought process and I am not some idiot..If it happens to be the same as you found in a book on witchcraft well then I guess I know more than you thought I did to have come up with it on my very own then don't I?? You're right..I DON'T have a good grasp on either magic or witchcraft and I have stated this fact myself numerous times throughout this debate. Ya know, when did YOU become some God yourself, I mean what gives you the right to suggest that I shouldn't have asked this question??? I never claimed to know what I was talking about that's WHY I ASKED THE QUESTION...Jeez Louise, talk about being on your high horse and thinking that you know it all. Well excuse the heck outta me..some of us haven't carried on a whole conversation with God and so aren't as enlightened as you are Oh Great One. |
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Date: 8/8/2003 1:18:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
Thank you Love Kitten, St. Pete, and Donno for your comments!! I apologize to you all for my outburst..I am attemting to keep this discussion rational and peaceful. At the time I was very upset..I will try to avoid further flareups. |
Date: 8/8/2003 1:42:00 AM
From Authorid: 57225
sins differ from people to people.whats wrong to one may not seem so wrong to another. which is why religion is so chaotic. nobody can agree on anything and it will always be like that. the whole point of religion is to have answers to questions that arent explainable, but why have it when all we're going to do is question everything it stands for? ...to me..magic and miracles are about the same, except some magic is considered bad and well that would be the difference. so in my opinion, i wouldnt consider magic to be a 'sin' but then again i dont consider god to be existant..so...yep.  |
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Date: 8/8/2003 2:00:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
Thank you for replying skoola..I appreciate your input. |
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Date: 8/8/2003 2:23:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
Okay..here is a snippet from an interesting transcript that I found regarding a discussion on the difference between magic and miracle that makes some sense to me. At any rate it is interesting: <TamarGeorge> Intent is the key to miracles and magic. The intent is how you determine the target as well as the ethics of a desired outcome. Ask whether you are attempting a miracle or a manipulation. <Susanrose> Yes; one country's freedom fighter and hero, may well be another country's terrorist. We can rationalize "goodness" to our desires. <TamarGeorge> You may condemn something before you ever even got to walk in it's shoes. You know that old saying, walk in anther's shoes for awhile and you won't be so quick to pass judgment. One of my friends watched the 30 million dollar made for TV production of "Merlin" and got so upset at the character named Mab. She was the powerful woman from Avalon. My friend was concerned that the miracles she was trying to create in her life would be associated with black magic. Wait a minute, I said back. Your telling me that you judged Merlin good magic and Mab bad sorcery? Yes, she replied, but I am also confused about it all. And that is the point I responded back. You don't trust yourself to use power. You are confused about what power is and it's correct and incorrect use. You need to trust that when you to ask for something in the highest intent and have as your partner the Universe, It will give it to you. You cannot for a moment believe that Merlin did not manipulate to have things go the way he wanted to. Every one of us, everyone of us, manipulates each other every day. It is the intent behind the manipulation that justifies what is going on. We manipulate our children to go to school, we manipulate our mates to give to us. We manipulate the gas company to give us gas by paying them money. Merlin believed when he manipulated he had a higher intent then Mab. That Christianity or newer ways would be a better choice. Mab's intent was not to be the last of her breed. She had self preservation in mind and believe it was for every one else's good to not to let the old ways die off. That is what I am talking about. Every one thinks their opinion and perspective is the most accurate. They are going to word things. They write things to influence you because they feel they have the most honest perspective. That is when you have to use your own ability to really sit down and think. What is your own perspective? Take the time to consider the intent. This intent needs to be for the highest good of the ALL. Your intent to harm no other and believing in yourself as a precious Spirit deserving of happiness will determine that outcome. So it is very much your intent that determines how you will judge you and the outcome! |
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Date: 8/8/2003 2:59:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
Okay..here is another article that I found relating to the definitions of magic and miracle..enjoy Deb!!Definitions Miracle a) an extraordinary event manifesting a supernatural work of God - Webster b) an unexplained event attributed to supernatural cause. Magic - use of means believed to have supernatural power over natural forces - Webster "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke Mystery 1. a religious truth that a man can know by revelation alone and cannot fully understand 2. something not understood - Webster Discussion The definitions above are subjective. They are not effective definitions. By the Church-Turing Thesis, an effective definition is one that is definable in terms of a Turing machine or its equivalent (at least until someone comes up with a more powerful definition). Lets try to develop an effective definition of miracle. We begin with definition b of miracle because it is the simpler and do the following: Miracle: an unexplained event attributed to supernatural cause. Start with the given definition Miracle: an event attributed to supernatural cause. Drop the word unexplained as we regard attribution as a type of explanation. Miracle: an event attributed to non-natural cause. Replace supernatural with the equivalent non-natural Miracle: an event attributed to a non-computable function. Replace non-natural with non-computable. Key assumption: If we assume that the description of natural causes is finite and effective (and therefore a computable function), then the non-natural causes are non-computable functions. Miracle: an event computed by a non-computable function. Replace "attributed" by "computed" to complete the transformation. Some facts (See any book on the theory of computation.): The set of computable functions is recognizable but not decidable. The set of non-computable functions is not recognizable. Since the set of non-computable functions is not recognizable, the set of miracles is not recognizable. On the other hand, non-miracles (events attributed to natural causes) are recognizable since they correspond to computable functions. Thus we have the following theorem. Theorem: Miracles are not recognizable and non-miracles are recognizable but not decidable. Not only is therre no general procedure for recognizing miracles, no miracle is recognizable since if it were, it would be a computable function. Further, while non-miracles are recognizable, there is no decision procedure that is able to determine whether a given a given event is a non-miracle. This latter situation will remain until there is a complete scientific theory. Now while miracles may be not recognizable, certainly extraordinary events are recognizable by their low statistical frequency and events which lack explanation will continue to be with us for the foreseeable future. Note: if in the second definition we replace unexplained with unexplainable, then it is reasonable to assume that unexplainable is equivalent to non-computable and the definition becomes circular. In the development of the theorem we moved from a definition which included the word `supernatural' which we equated to a non-computable function.. This leads to the following corollary. Corollary There is no effective definition of the supernatural |
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Date: 8/8/2003 8:29:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
You can take my "tone" as offensively as you need to, Xlanthia. I really am impressed with your research here, but what does it tell us? That "theoretically" we can't prove supernatural events to be either miracles or magic? I've read your theories, I've read the hypothetical, now I am asking once again: Can you give me a realistic example of what you think a magic spell can do, and what one practicing magic would do to achieve the desired result? As far as the whole "intent" discussion you've reproduced here, that was something I brought up waaay up there ^^^. And these two ladies doing the talking in that discussion, ask: "Ask whether you are attempting a miracle or a manipulation?" Shall we get started on your definition of "manipulation"? God Bless. |
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Date: 8/8/2003 8:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 62146
Sometimes I do not get christians I don't hate them though. Well in my opinyion it is only considered evil if you use it to harm others like with hexs and stuf. When witch burnings started christians failed to belive that witches can also do magic for good like healing and good luck but oh well they decided to be idots and burn them. Good Post. *Cosmic Freak*  |
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Date: 8/8/2003 11:32:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
Honestly I don't really know how to answer that Deb..I mean I could give you examples of what I think one practicing magic could hope to achieve, but who says that you would find them to be realistic?? I really don't know what any "realistic" examples would be, because like I said..I don't practice magic..so what seems realistic to me may not fit into your scope of realism. Then you have the argument that say for example (this is hypothetical and in the spirit of answering your question), a person wanted to use magic to make someone fall in love with them, they use incantations or make a potion or pary..whatever, and this desired person falls for them. Okay..even I can ask.."how do you know that this person wouldn't have fallen in love with you anyway?". I just don't know enough yet to even begin to guess at a realistic type of example to give you. I mean, according to the Bible Jesus walked on water right?? Whether we call that magic or a miracle..is it really realistic?? Have any of us actually seen an example of someone walking on water?? Moses turned his staff into a snake at the phaarohs feet right?? Whether we call that magic or a miracle, does it seem like a realistic example?? We could go on like this all day..Jesus turning water into wine, the parting of the Red Sea... |
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Date: 8/8/2003 11:39:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
I don't know the "accepted" definition of manipulation but here goes my shot at my own: in my opinion manipulation is using any means necessary to achieve a desired result. In fact, when Moses performed his magic for the pharaoh, wasn't he in fact trying to manipulate the pharaoh to free Moses people?? |
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Date: 8/9/2003 12:28:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
Xlanthia, this is EXACTLY why I jumped at your (and anyone elses') desire to lump as one thing magic and miracles. The definition I use of the word miracle, and really, to me, the only use of that word that makes any kind of sense is the FIRST one in your comment which gives the definition as: An extraordinary event manifesting a supernatural work of God. Let's dissect THIS definition, shall we? "An extraordinary event" means just that -- something has happened that is OUT OF THE ORDINARY such as Jesus walking on water and Moses' staff turning into a snake. "Manifesting" means to plainly show. "A supernatural work" denotes a production that is beyond the scope of the material world. Let's stop right there and put all that together: A miracle is something that has happened that is out of the ordinary which plainly shows a production that is beyond the scope of the material world. Is it within any human being's reality to be able to plainly show that they are able to produce something that is out of the ordinary and beyond the scope of the material world? I say NO. That is why the rest of this definition is what is needed to explain miracles, that being "OF GOD". Do you see why this person you quote, Arthur C. Clarke, is unable to attribute the supernatural to a miracle? Because in using the other definition of miracle, you are leaving out attributing the miracle to God. This is why I have such a problem with your claiming "in essence" that to perform magic is to produce miracles, for to say that using the definition of miracle that MAKES SENSE is to say that the person performing the magic is producing something which is beyond their scope in that a miracle can ONLY be OF GOD. Only if you are willing to claim to be God, can you claim to have produced a miracle. Is THAT realistic? O.K. let's get back to the word magic. The ladies you quote talk of intent. They say, and I am paraphrasing here, that if your intent is to produce a miracle and not merely to manipulate, then you are practicing "good magic". Well, now, do you still believe that a person is capable of producing a miracle? If your intent is that you want to produce a miracle and seemingly only God can produce miracles, then is it your intent to be God? Their whole conversation sure sounds like it to me. For example, the one lady states that your "intent needs to be of the highest good of the ALL"! REALISTICALLY, who in this world can even begin to think that they are able to determine what is best for us ALL and the whole world for that matter? George W. Bush? Osama bin Ladin? Michael Jackson? Barney? The only thing these ladies say that IS REALISTIC is that we all manipulate every day, people manipulate words to get across a meaning, and you, as a receptor of those words, need to THINK FOR YOURSELF. Does it make any sense to you to say that people can perform magic to produce a miracle, yet demonstrated miracles are beyond the realistic effort of any human beings? Do you see how much your language usage is shaping your thoughts? You use the language "when Moses used his magic". By your own admission, it is not realistic to claim that Moses COULD change a stff into a snake. Why? Because that is beyond the realm of human potential. Then how can a human do that which is beyond the realm of human potential? The most straightforward way I can say this is: Moses DID NOT change the rod into a snake, God did. Moses did not use magic, God performed a miracle. All your language usage is doing is attempting to ascrible God-like attributes to a human. WHY? Do you honestly believe that humans can do that which God Can? God Bless. |
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Date: 8/9/2003 12:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Miracles are just *CLAIMS* of some sort of supernatural events. They are all HEARSAY. MAGIC is an ILLUSIONARY *"trick"* performed to try to fool or give the appearance of something, even claim that it is a "miracle". The Biblical stories of Noah & the serpent; Jesus walking on water, turning water into wine, etc, were all CLAIMS of "miracles" and were only mythical TALL TALES of "magic" or "miracles". MAGIC is slight-of-hand, trick artistry, to give an ILLUSION of something. There is no such thing as a "miracle", for if it has NO natural explanation; then it is considered: PARANORMAL=that which just simply has no known explanation. If it has no natural explanation; MANY just ASSUME it is a "miracle". |
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Date: 8/10/2003 12:33:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
Okay..but my next question is this..if God really wanted his people free, then why did he have to perform a miracle through Moses?? Why didn't he just talk to the Pharoah straight up, as some of you say that you have personally experienced, and certainly as Moses experienced and tell the Pharoah that he was the Lord God and to free them?? Why go through all of the theatrics of having Moses be a middle man and perform this magic or be God's vessel through which to perform a miracle? That part just makes no sense to me..I still stand by my belief..I feel that these supposed miracles were witnessed by some really gullible people who had no concept of magic and illusion and I won't go so far as to say that they lied..but I think they were definitely lead to believe that what they saw was a miracle. I have seen magic and illusion performed on TV, so I know that this is possible. However, I have never witnessed a miracle, all I have to go on is stories in the Bible, which for all I know was nothing more than illusions blown out of proportion and the words "miracle and God" were attached. Thinker, I read the info at the link that you supplied..very thought provoking. It was a little hard to understand at first, but I caught on.. |
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Date: 8/10/2003 12:36:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
Oops, also meant to mention that Arthur C. Clarke wasn't the one to find the corollary for miracle..he is given credit for the quote right before the breakdown of the definition.. |
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Date: 8/10/2003 2:14:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
Okay some more researching found this site, it is very long but quite interesting..it very much pertains to the subject of this debate so I urge anyone interested to check it out..www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/0618Magic.html |
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Date: 8/10/2003 2:17:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
One more article that I found..and proper credit to the source is given at the end of this article..it further elaborates on Thinkers thoughts in her last reply..very long but again, worth the time taken to read.WHAT is a miracle when deeply considered? Do real miracles exist, or have they existed in human or superhuman history? To analyse it, let us consider the following definition:”Miracle: marvellous event, due to some super-natural agency.” As far as I can see, that dictionary definition is completely wrong. If the word “natural” means “pertaining to or constituted by nature,” and the word “nature” means “the essential qualities of things,” it is obvious that in any of the planes of manifested Life, nothing can be supernatural. Manifestation starts in Spirit-Matter, and both are the natural basis of all phenomena that we can perceive which are always relative. So, I propose the following definition for a miracle: “The inner and subtle work of natural, but not generally comprehended and studied, universal laws.” ...seriously considered, miracles have not, do not, and cannot exist. When we think of the fascinating word “miracle,” we have to remember, with our full reverence and love, the great Teachers of the past, such as Hermes, Sri Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha and Christ. Did they perform miracles? No, they did not. What they did, using the high knowledge acquired at their superior level of thought and experience, was to manipulate certain universal natural laws and certain hidden natural energies. They did it as easily as we drive a car, or use and dominate the force of a big waterfall for electrical purposes. So, the very word “miracle” was born from the astonished ignorance of the multitudes, from the childish admiration of the illiterates, incapable of understanding the basis and manipulation of such natural forces and powers. It is a truism which we should have in mind, that any fact may appear “miraculous” according to the knowledge and stage of evolution of a given person. For instance, if some of us could go back into the fifteenth century, carrying a radio or a television set with us, undoubtedly the people would be frightened to death, thinking that these devices are “born of Satan”; or, on the other hand, they may see in this a “marvellous miracle,” which may lead them to reverence and to propitiate us as “divine gods”. So, we must underline the fact: seriously considered, miracles have not, do not, and cannot exist. Certain cases of apparent miracles due to prayer, and carried on through prayer, are merely natural results of mental force. Prayer is a tremendous astro-mental healing and harmonizing power, more or less unconsciously used and put into action. For instance, a single mystic or a group may pray intensively, with their minds and hearts fixed in the direction of a certain objective. Afterwards, in accordance with the intensity of their vibrations, and the nature of their karma, this objective is sometimes reached and fulfilled. Then, they sincerely proclaim: “A miracle!” They do not observe that this apparent “miracle” is only the natural and progressive result of vibrations they themselves have generated acting as an electrical magneto. How many followers of religions and even how many priests would be extremely surprised, if we let them know that they are really, although unconsciously, acting daily as black magicians! Black magic, in one of its main aspects, is the use of our mental and astral force, in order to obtain some selfish and material results. This matter of magic mixed with prayer becomes extraordinarily interesting. Unsuspectingly, not only mystics but all people act constantly as black, grey or white magicians, being animated by selfish or unselfish, pure or impure, helpful or obstructive motives towards those around us, and humanity as a whole. In regard to this matter, we must remember Madame Blavatsky’s teachings: “Pure thoughts, pure feelings, pure words and pure actions. This is the ‘Yoga of yogas,’ that can be and must be practised always and for everybody, without any danger...” Do relics exist as a real fact? They do, because a so-called “miraculous” relic, belonging to a pure and spiritual, person is saturated with his vibrations; also, if the relic is in a temple or place of public adoration, it becomes strongly impregnated with the thousands and millions of thoughts and feelings of the worshippers, becoming a powerful force. It is said that once there was a very religious woman, who asked her husband to bring, from a remote temple, a special relic. When the man was coming home, he realized that he had forgotten to look for the relic, and knowing that his wife would be very angry, the man suddenly picked up from the sand a piece of a dog’s tooth. He went to the river, washed it carefully, and wrapped it in cotton and silk. His wife and family were anxiously awaiting the coming of the holy relic; so , as soon as he gave it to them, it was placed, with full reverence, on their alter, and day by day a long procession of neighbours came to worship the relic, with intense devotion and love. After some time, they began to observe at night a glorious resplendence coming forth from the relic, and reports of the so-called “miracle” travelled far and wide. One day, a great scientist arrived, attracted by accounts of the miracle, and started secret investigations. The first thing he did was to have a private interview with the man who brought the relic from the temple. He offered him a good sum of money and promised that he would not say anything of it to others, if he told the truth about the relic; in response the man confessed the whole trick. Afterwards the scientist, using his instruments, did a careful examination of the dog’s tooth supposed to be a saint’s tooth and found that the accumulated electro-magnetic vibrations of the religious worshippers were the real cause of the physically perceived reflections. We have to bear in mind, also, how, in our daily life, these accumulated devotional vibrations contribute to form and to augment the powerful atmosphere of certain temples and holy public and “miraculous” places of mystic adoration. In other cases, the apparently “miraculous” waters owe their power to some chemical substances, and individual faith and auto-suggestion do the rest. At other times, the main agent is Devic force or invisible disincarnated helpers’ force, acting in accordance with karma. “When the physical counterpart suffers, the soul smiles.” Let us consider another important aspect: astro-mental force mixed with healing prayer. It is obvious that prayer lifts consciousness to the infinitude, and of course, when in an unselfish way we pray for another’s health the intention is useful and pure. Contemplating things from our low and dark level of evolution, we feel it is important to keep the welfare and comfort of the physical body uppermost. However, we rarely feel the same with regard to the spiritual Self. I often remember a beautiful thought that says: “When the physical counterpart suffers, the soul smiles.” When some terrific physical catastrophe happens such as a deluge, a big earthquake, and so on, there is nothing wrong, nothing bad but on the contrary a necessary, beneficent and good circumstance, because it represents a collective karmic payment and a purifying agent for the future inner progress, evolution and liberation of thousands of human souls. In this case, though very many physical bodies may suffer hunger, cold, pain and starvation, the catastrophe contributes to and facilitates spiritual growth and expansion of consciousness. For example, old cities, linked with ancient traditions, at a certain time may have to be destroyed, because they have fulfilled their basic mission, and afterwards their accumulated, traditional vibrations become negative, and represent a very strong obstacle for future developments of evolutions. Tradition is useful and helpful while it keeps and protects racial characteristics and knowledge. But afterwards it becomes a serious obstacle, when converted, age by age, into rigidity, intolerance, prejudice and cruelty, working against the renovating and wider flowering of life and thought. All this shows us clearly how even wars will not exist in future purer civilizations, but at the beginning of our century they have been in a certain way constructive and useful as every historical and human circumstance is, when considered in the light of Theosophical teachings. The hidden paths of purification and spiritual flowering need our physical illnesses, discomforts, troubles and pain.... It is said that once the Lord Jesus, with a group of His disciples, stayed overnight in the house of a very old man. Next morning, when they left the house and started walking through the mountains, they saw the granary of the poor old man being destroyed by fire. Then one of the disciples said: “Oh, Lord, please stop that fire!” But the Lord Jesus, with a serene and divine smile, answered: “Use your inner Eyes of Light, and not your external and physical eyes: this old man has in the city a son, to whom he is sending, continually, a certain amount of money. The son does not spend it in studying, but in vices. So, occultly considered, “the best” for both of them would be the fire that destroys the granary. Then the old man will not be able to send more money to his son, and the son will have to come back to work and help his father; and by this action, his soul will be purified. So try to use always your inner Eyes of Light!...” The hidden paths of purification and spiritual flowering need our physical illnesses, discomforts, troubles and pain, as internally valuable karmic equilibrating forces and evolutionary collaborators to the main goal: the fulfilment of human consciousness and liberation. It being always our duty to help, to love and to act as instruments of the good karma of others, the practice of healing prayer becomes beautiful and wise, if we think or say always, before the use of that astro-mental power: “Within the karma of this soul. May we all learn our lessons as soon as possible and give of our higher service!” And although healing prayers and ceremonies are useful and valuable as channels and instruments for the fulfilment of good karma, we will sooner or later come to the conclusion that the highest and wisest prayer is merely an abstract and silent meditation in which nothing is asked for. To ask for proper inspiration, righteousness and enlightenment to comprehend and help others is always very good, but to go on asking and asking supposed “favours” or “miracles” from “God,” seriously considered, is an absurdity, because our small and earthly points of view will be in logical contradiction with the bitter and unavoidable karmic adjustments that will have to be made. Neither “God” nor the wise Lords of Karma need our childish claims, complaints, wrong petitions and desires to act in Their superior planes. To suppose the Great Ones may “forget” if we do not ask and remind Them, is to doubt Their perfection. We should not try vainly to avoid the results of karma but should face them with courage, serenity and wisdom. So we will achieve maturity. Karma cannot touch us, unless attracted by our action. There is no such thing as “bad karma” as in evolutionary paths everything is certainly and always good, necessary, useful and valuable. Therefore, it is much better to spend time in helpful and good deeds than to waste it in complaining and mistaken petitions. It is obvious that we should always keep in our mind and heart constructive and beneficent thoughts, hopes and feelings, and that we must do everything possible to sublimate and change our so-called “bad karma” and the so-called “bad karma” of humanity. But this must be done always harmoniously and wisely, and without trying to force or misunderstand any circumstance. For instance, there is a great moral and medical problem in what is called euthanasia, which is, whether we should bring about a gentle and easy death in cases of incurable and painful disease. From a Theosophical point of view, it must not be done, as long and painful, unavoidable agonies are very purificatory. On the other hand, if for instance a very old and incurable person feels and says he has already finished his mission and earthly experiences in this incarnation, it would be a great mistake for his family and friends to use through prayer their inner power of thought and feeling in order to attempt to retain this soul on earth any longer, only because they do not want to lose his physical company and presence. ...every prayer, in accordance with the inner evolution and liberated force of the one who prays is a magnetic and magic energy... Passing to another part of our subject, the etymological origin of the word “magic” is quite interesting: it comes from the Greek mag and agios which means “great action”. Various English words hold the same etymological root: mag-num, mag-nificent, mag-nate, mag-nanimos, mag-nitude, mag-netic. Really every prayer, in accordance with the inner evolution and liberated force of the one who prays is a magnetic and magic energy, directed straight to the purpose of the prayer. According to the following definition of magic “Occult control of Nature’s forces,” apparent miracles and magic always work together. But, is there any relation between apparent miracles, magic and science? Certainly! As science, whose definition is “systematic knowledge,” is the hidden basis of all apparently ‘miraculous” or “magic” facts. Really, as somebody wisely said, the so-called “magic” is not “magical” for the magician, who knows the natural, logical and scientific laws of its manipulation. Thus, as for the word “magic,” an elucidation similar to the above explanation can be given for the word “miracle”: deeply and scientifically considered, magic does not exist, and can only be called “magic” because of the ignorance and low grade of evolution of the person who observes and judges it. There are certain words such as “miracle”, “magic,” “luck” and “hazard” that must belong to and be used only by ignorant and superstitious people. “Good luck” and “bad luck” do not exist; only the karmic working out of the law. “Hazard” does not exist, because, as very wisely said by H.P. Blavatsky, “there is an uninterrupted concatenation of causes and effects in every life” in accordance with its proper karmic and vibrating atmosphere, which embraces even the apparently most insignificant facts. Universal mathematics cannot fail. Hence, the so-called “magic” is a sort of “esoteric chemistry,” while official and today’s external science is “exoteric’. But both will have to approach day by day, and finally meet, as happened in the golden centuries of the past, when religion, magic and science used to work together. The “happy dream” of the medieval alchemist-transmutation of copper into gold - had been reached by modern science. But why is it not performed? Because the whole process is more expensive than the price of gold. However, the main point to observe is this: Miracles, magic and science are really “one in three and three in one,” representing another interesting trinity of values on the philosophical human horizon. When the majority of people gradually become aware of the fact, prejudices, obstacles and struggles between scientist, magician and priest will tend to disappear, as all of them are working basically in complementary aspects of the same field; all of them are seeking the same truth through diverse angles; all of them manipulating the same energies, although at different levels of vibration. Their whole activity basically is science, manifesting and growing in different branches that may be called “concrete science,” “abstract science” and “mystic science”. As the general grade of human evolution approaches the sixth and seventh sub-races, the three paths towards the Supreme and the Highest, will have to mingle more and more with one another, as they are now beginning to do. Old, superstitious and degenerated religions will have to become friends of science, if they do not want to be laughed at by intellectual and cultured people. Magic (also nowadays degenerated into lower psychism, and mixed almost always with sinful and economic exploitation of the ignorant) will have to regenerate and vindicate itself, going back to its superior and proper footing of scientific dignity. Official science deplorably degraded in our century, as in the atomic bomb at Hiroshima and in the tremendous daily economic exploitation of human sorrow and pain, will have to spiritualize and purify itself, facing and remembering this sublime attitudes and aspirations of pure and fraternal mysticism. In fact, every one of them needs the approach and the complementary help of the others. It is logical and natural, as all of them integrate and constitute one of the great triangles of inner and outer force and inspiration, among the concrete-abstract keys of present human evolution. Only in this philosophical serenity is it possible to reach the ecstasy of the mystic, the magic work of the magician, and the scientific meditation and practice of the scientist. What is the position of philosophy in this regard? If we have observed religion, magic and science as three branches of the same tree, growing up to infinitude, and based on eternal truths given to humanity, this tree is the expanding tree of philosophy: the love of knowledge and wisdom which deals with ultimate reality and with the most general causes and principles of things. Moral philosophy studies the principles of human action and conduct; natural philosophy becomes the natural basis of religion, magic and science, considered as a whole. The philosopher is a lover of wisdom, natural and moral: one who shows philosophical calmness in trying circumstances. Only in this philosophical serenity is it possible to reach the ecstasy of the mystic, the magic work of the magician, and the scientific meditation and practice of the scientists. Frequently it has been asked: Is Theosophy a religion, or a magical practice, or a philosophy, or a science? Although opinions are divided in this regard, as far as I can see, Theosophy is not and cannot be any one of these aspects of Truth separately, but embraces them all in a higher, enriched, concrete-abstract and superior whole. To think that Theosophy can be described or defined only in one way or another, is to limit and mutilate its greatness. We must be, or at least must try to be, at the same time profound philosophers, skilful scientists, beneficent, white magicians and sweet and spiritual mystics. It is very difficult, but also very necessary, in the century whose realities and ideals we have to serve. A person can have a very tender and exquisite heart, full of love and spirituality, with compassion for all beings in the universe; but if this love and spirituality are not supported and helped by a strong, brilliant and cultivated mind such people will not be able to serve properly and to love intelligently. A person can have a very strong intellectual and remarkable mind; but his mind, without the abstract wisdom of tenderness and compassion, will become cruel and proud. Another person can have a very strong will, but this will, without the help and the necessary equilibrium of love and knowledge, will convert him into a forceful and inharmonious character. So, the great “formula” is to cultivate and blend ourselves in well-balanced proportions of love, will and knowledge, in order to reach wise, dynamic and helpful action. To achieve the serenity of the philosopher, the skilled brain of the scientist, the beneficent and attractive power of the white magician, and the always sweet and tender heart of the pure and universal mystic, is our goal, and it embraces the supreme art of living. The Theosophist 1961 www.theosophical.ca/MiraclesMagic.htm - |
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Date: 8/10/2003 1:33:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
Gee, I capitalized the "THINK FOR YOURSELF" part of the one article you reproduced here, but I guess it went unnoticed. So now I read this latest reproduced article in which this philosopher describes "magic" as LIFE, i.e., the cycles of nature and relationships and how we as individuals deal with them. So are we going on with this discussion with a NEW definition of "magic"? Your original question pertained to whether magic is a sin. I asked you to define from the get-go what definition of magic you are using. Once again: Do you have any concrete examples of magic as you are using the definition. Because all I keep seeing you refer to is magic as defined as illuionary tricks (which I would say are not a sin since the INTENT, as defined by the use of the word in that connotation is to trick) and your insistence on claiming that magic is another word for miracles (replete with a few articles that support this viewpoint). I totally understand that when you take the "of God" out of the definition of "miracle" that you get a non-sustainable theory! THAT is why one needs to use the definition that includes "of God" to even begin to understand what a miracle is. And, you, never having witnessed a miracle, take that and word definitions of a concept and conclude that only gullible, superstitious people could label something a miracle. I HAVE BEEN THE SUBJECT OF SEVERAL MIRACLES. I am not a gullible person (in case you are unaware, I grew up in an atheist/agnostic household). I am not an ignorant person, that word suggesting "unknowing". I have life experiences (the one you've apparently read about) which gives me a working definition of the word miracle. Without His Hand in my life on several instances I would not be here. There is no "magic" (trick, illusion, normal life occurences) or "science" to explain what has happened to me. Every one of these instances (save for the one I have written about on this site), had witnesses to them, so for all of the other instances, the old/tired "delusional argument" is invalid unless one is willing to call all these other people/witnesses (police officer, hospital lab tech, head of social services, small business owner, transportation department worker, etc.) delusional. I cannot MAKE anyone accept the definition of miracle that attributes same to God. But, for those of you who may be reading this and thinking on your own, do these other definitions of same EVEN MAKE SENSE? As far as why God doesn't do things YOUR WAY, it's because you're not God! I suppose if you were then you would UNDERSTNAD why He does what He does. There is not a human being in all of existence that can be everywhere all at once, throughout time and space, AND in each and everyone of your hearts, knowing every single thought/intent/feeling. Oh, well. God Bless. |
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Date: 8/10/2003 11:34:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
I just posted these articles Deb because I found them interesting and thought others would as well, I'm just sharing information. I already explained my stance in that I still feel that they are pretty much the same..the only difference being in that from what I have learned a miracle is only called that when someone attributes something extraordinary to God..and that when people use magic they attribute it to the forces of nature, an energy source, or even to the god/goddess/ or entity of their choosing. Take out the words "of God" and insert whatever source you choose and it's called magic..still the same concept though..extraordinary events or acts that are unexplainable or that seem unrealistic. You see, I do think for myself..I'm just compiling more information and sharing what I find..that's all. Yes, I did read your post about your conversation with God..and I am not doubting you..sorry if it seemed that way. I was not there and you have no reason to lie..you would define this as a miracle..but go to a psychiatrist and they may label it schizophrenia or paranoid ideation..doesn't mean that you didn't hear God speak to you..but a psychiatrist wouldn't see it as "rational" and would thereby ascribe a definition of mental illness or extreme stress. That's just another way of pointing out that we all see things differently according to our viewpoints. |
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Date: 8/11/2003 7:51:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
Wrong. They (the psychologists and psychiatrists who I HAVE seen) label me completely lucid. One (a PRIEST who I was talking to in THAT capacity who also is a doctor of psychology) felt I had been hallucinating since, according to him, "God wouldn't talk to someone like me." (Oh, now I am really LMAO at his piety.) But the rest found my account fascinating. Why, one of these psychologists even confessed to me that he had also heard God's voice on two different occasions. I see where you work in the medical field. Were you giving me your professional opinion there? I am not insisting people believe me, that is their own preogative. But neither am I going to lie and say "no miracle happened -- it was magic". For me to say that would insinuate that a HUMAN was involved in making these occurences happen. And by the way, I thought you were of the opinion that "magic" is when one focuses their energy they can achieve their desired result. How is that unexplainable? In the one example I have seen you use, i.e., make a "love potion" for somebody you want to have fall in love with you, would that magic be unexplainable? I thought the whole purpose of magic was to attain the desired result. How did the desired result coming about now become unexplainable if the "love potion" worked? Isn't the explanation the "love potion"? Didn't the person using the magic make the "love potion" in order to knowingly use it? How then does that person NOW attribute that to their diety? How did we go through this whole conversation about "magic" with this definition that you have given waaay up there (go take a look-see at your 8/03/2003 9:35P.M. comment), where you specifically said magic is done by HUMANS and now in this last comment of yours, you attribute the magic to "whatever" diety? Gotta go . . . God Bless. |
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Date: 8/11/2003 10:35:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
Simple..the definition that I initially gave you was "my" definition as I understood it at the time, since I had no other basis for information other than my own personal understanding, AND since you specifically asked how "I" defined magic..that is the definition that I gave. I have since done some research and reading on the topic and I have learned that some magic is performed by calling upon a deity/entity or what have you. That's the beauty of learning something new..that you can have the ability to change your viewpoint if given the information. I told you that it was my intent to learn..and although I don't know it "all" I am doing just that, learning. No, it wasn't my "professional" opinion that you are delusional LOL..I am surely not qualified to do that. I was merely pointing out to you that "some" psychiatrists could come to that conclusion based upon their individual viewpoint and the extent of their learning..it seems to me that you found some very open-minded and supportive psychologists/psychiatrists... I used that as just an example..nothing more, and I meant nothing derogatory at all. |
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Date: 8/11/2003 10:53:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
Oops..also..the love potion didn't "suddenly" become unexplainable based on my reading of the articles that I posted herein..I specifically remember stating when I used the love potion example..and I quote (gotta love copy/paste): "a person wanted to use magic to make someone fall in love with them, they use incantations or make a potion or pary..whatever, and this desired person falls for them. Okay..even I can ask.."how do you know that this person wouldn't have fallen in love with you anyway?". I just don't know enough yet to even begin to guess at a realistic type of example to give you." See, I said initially in that same reply that even that example could be seen as unrealistic to some. Just because I believe that something is possible doesn't mean that I'm necessarily going to believe that it happened right away..After weighing all of the "evidence" and the logistics I may or may not believe that magic or miracle is the only conclusion. Note that I never stated that I DIDN'T believe miracles were possible..what I said in so many words is that I have never WITNESSED a miracle and so that I found it harder to believe in than magic..what I said is that in the cases of miracles that I have read about (i.e. Moses and Jesus) is that it is PLAUSIBLE that there were other things that these "miracles" could be attributed to other things i.e. magic, illusion, mass hysteria, the gullibility of a nation of simpler-minded people..I am merely taking into account the other possibilities..we weren't there, there is no historical proof of these events except what is written in the Bible, no archaeological evidence..we can't say for 100% certainty that the Bibles account is 100% accurate..therefore, some people question..and there is nothing wrong with that. You say that you have been witness to miracles and I am not disputing that, I was not there..what you experienced is what you experienced, I can't and would not even try to take that from you. I kind of envy you in a way that your convictions about your belief are so solid..not being sure what to believe is very hard at times, but I discount nothing. Anything is possible.. |
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Date: 8/11/2003 7:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
Now that's what I like -- honesty. I commend you for trying to get a grasp on a concept without having any real life experience to give you any insight as to what it is you are trying to understand. Peace and God Bless. |
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Date: 8/12/2003 11:41:00 AM
From Authorid: 28363
Moses was raised in the house of Pharoah and knew the magic of those priests, I believe he encountered an entity of great perportions who intoned him to take on a task, maybe somehow his chakras were opened, or he became enlightened, however it needs to be said, and that gave him power and opened normally unused abilities. It is also recorded in the forbidden book of enoch that the angels were the ones who showed womankind magic, amongst other things. |
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Date: 8/13/2003 12:16:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 62100
Thanks Deb..like I said, I am trying to learn..I have a long way to go yet..but I'm getting there. This has been a great debate so far and really motivated me to learn more despite our misunderstandings..I hope that we can continue getting to know each other in future posts as well. And, I do apologize for my hotheaded outbursts at times..they are mainly borne of my frustrations when I'm not getting through to people in the way that I intend to or making myself clear, as well as possibly misinterpreting what others say at times..hope you don't hold it against me. |
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