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Date: 8/1/2003 5:11:00 PM
From Authorid: 59861
the meanings of chase and fight and pursue is meaning to save, and lead our enemies to the lord, not to litterally chase and fight them. i dont think there are any better christians than others, just christians who do more to save, or lead the unsaved to christ. some are doers, and some are watchers, but as the lord says, we should all be doers. so thats what i think. peace.  |
Date: 8/1/2003 5:15:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Shady lady thats are pretty good answer however all through the old testament God had an army to pursue the enemies of God. I"M not saying search them out and be rude , crude, ect, but I'm saying that WHEN they have professed for more than 1000 times their unbelief in the Lord Jesus and in God, yes, I will pursue their words and their posts and do as God says, PREACH, rebuke  |
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Date: 8/1/2003 5:17:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
I'm not doing it to be unkind, but doing it so that others can hear *the REST of the story* |
Date: 8/1/2003 5:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 53689
I agree with Shady Lady about it not being literal. And it is key to remember you are much less likely to get someone to understand or convert to Christianity by fighting and chasing them than you would by kind words and understanding of their beliefs.  |
Date: 8/1/2003 5:19:00 PM
From Authorid: 48689
Amen. I totally agree with you. *hugs*  |
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Date: 8/1/2003 5:22:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Most times Tar girl, you see me in debate or sometimes Discussion, however you dont see me and some of the others in other sections, ,OH were there, and we are being kind. But I'm not talking about converting someone, as some dont wish to be converted. I'm talking about those that have their minds made up, have a total hate for God and for Jesus, wouldnt change if you gave them gold, I'm talking about the true enemies of God, not someone that might be able to think about what your telling them and choose from there. Its just I've had so many people tell me and others, when we argue, debate, or what ever, WHEN we dont cow down to comments that were going against Gods word. So this post is not about how we should act, but IF were doing what God says, then why call us bad christians? I hope that made sense? |
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Date: 8/1/2003 5:24:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Most times Tar girl, you see me in debate or sometimes Discussion, however you dont see me and some of the others in other sections, ,OH were there, and we are being kind. But I'm not talking about converting someone, as some dont wish to be converted. I'm talking about those that have their minds made up, have a total hate for God and for Jesus, wouldnt change if you gave them gold, I'm talking about the true enemies of God, not someone that might be able to think about what your telling them and choose from there. Its just I've had so many people tell me and others, when we argue, debate, or what ever, WHEN we dont cow down to comments that were going against Gods word. So this post is not about how we should act, but IF were doing what God says, then why call us bad christians? I hope that made sense? |
Date: 8/1/2003 5:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 1225
The name of God has been the excuse for more bloodshed, more wars, more hatred, and more evil than any other concept in human history. How do you think God feels about that? Most of the Christians I know are morally upstanding, compassionate, kind, and generous poeple. I've only had the displeasure of meeting one or two which I would consider candidates for a one way trip to Neptune. Christians individually and in small groups are some of the most wonderful people in the world (hey, even I was raised as a devout Baptist!). It's only when politics get involved with the faith (i.e. organized international religious groups) that bad things happen. I don't believe God ever wanted his church to be run like a multinational corperation. Christians bad? No. Big, wealthy churches are bad.  |
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Date: 8/1/2003 5:29:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
thanks uban girl!! I really should change the head of this post as I dont really mean good or bad christian as much as I mean, doing Gods will or not? Guess I will fix it |
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Date: 8/1/2003 5:30:00 PM
From Authorid: 53689
It did, and I am understanding what you are saying. And I don't think you are a bad christian, just one that does things differently than I do. But I do wish you would consider one thing...when you "fight" and/or "persue" someone on their beliefs or hatred of God, how is that different than when those that have that hatred of God and Christians "fight" and/or persue you? (and I am sure this has happened being as many seem to love attacting Christians in an attempt to disprove the existance of God) See, in their minds, they are "preaching or rebukeing" your beliefs because they believe that you are wrong, just as you are doing the same with them because you believe they are wrong...does that make any sense..lol. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 5:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 53689
oh, and I do see you in other places...That's how I know you are a kind person. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 5:34:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Neptune Havent seen ya for awhile. I'm not talking blood shed dear. AND your right there has been lots of blood shed in the name of religion, all religions. AND I agree, if the big churches are going to have that much wealth they should not be pumping that money into gold fixtures for the bathrooms or fancy limos, they should be doing the will of God with that money and feeding the hungry, putting clothes on those that cant afford it and helping the homeless. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 5:36:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Tar girl, there is no difference as that is a personal battle as well as a spiritual one, but should we just as I say, cow down , ignore the posts? and IT will go on and on. But as I say mostly this post is to show some that just because a person rebukes someone, pursues their comments with your own comments or scripture, doesn't mean they are hatefull. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 5:37:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
But as you say, not your ordinary christian. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 5:37:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
I'm glad you can see that I'm a kind person. |
Date: 8/1/2003 5:41:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
It's only in the bible that you find words mean different things. In the English language the word fear means to be afraid of. Only when it is used in the Bible or in reference to God does it mean respect. Yet, fight chase and pursue don't change by definition when it comes to the Bible, go figure. Maybe because I am not considered to be Christian by the typical Christian standard, I am not qualified to say this, however I can't imagine a God condoning someone to purposely and intentionally provoke a fight, name call, hurt and insult other people ALL with the end result being to convert their way of thinking and turn them into a God fearing and good person such as themself. It just doesn't make sense to me.  |
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Date: 8/1/2003 5:50:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
AZ, God isnt saying that, its not about conversion, its about those that are hard core , made up their minds and will die with their minds made up, its not to pursue, fight name call, hurt and insult to win them to JESUS but knowing they are Gods enemies by their own words that one does have the right to pursue, rebuke, ect. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 6:13:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Firstborn, if it's not to convert, than what exactly is the purpose? |
Date: 8/1/2003 6:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 22852
BRB.. Going to get my boots because me thinks it may get deep in here... Hehehe  |
Date: 8/1/2003 6:26:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Well, there's noting for me to debate ABOUT this post, as I totally agree with it. We should stand up for the word of God, ourselves and fellow Christians. As most Christians know, our beliefs and opinions are rarely respected when we do though and that is when we're considered "bad Christians." If I'm a "bad Christian" because I believe and follow the Bible, Never deny God and defend him and others when I feel they're being unfairly ridiculed or persecuted... then I glady accept the title. Great post.  |
Date: 8/1/2003 6:27:00 PM
From Authorid: 34814
Contradiction comes to mind. I agree that more crap has happened in the name of God then any other cause.  |
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Date: 8/1/2003 6:28:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
typo^^^^^^^ I meant..... As most Christians know, our beliefs and opinions are rarely respected and when we defend them, that's when we're considered "bad Christians." |
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Date: 8/1/2003 6:30:00 PM
From Authorid: 22852
"if the big churches are going to have that much wealth they should not be pumping that money into gold fixtures for the bathrooms or fancy limos, they should be doing the will of God with that money and feeding the hungry, putting clothes on those that cant afford it and helping the homeless." AMEN to that FB.. I am a Catholic (non-practicing) and the money that is spent in the church to me is a sin. I myself believe that if one believes in God in his/her heart that is what is important, not Gold toilets. This is a most excellent post. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 6:31:00 PM
From Authorid: 53689
You Choose, I am going to ask you the same thing I asked Firstborn..what is the difference between what Firstborn has discribed and what some non-believers do to you? |
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Date: 8/1/2003 6:32:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
The purpose of what AZ? rebuking? Going on to a post and giving a differnt view? StormChaser, LOL, big ones hon. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 6:33:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
You choose, Amen sister. LET do a bless me club, LOL LOL Lovekitten, but were not talking about contridictions, were talking about being able with Gods blessing to stand up to those that would ridicule *sp* and mock. |
Date: 8/1/2003 6:33:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
Unless the Bible, God's word, tells us or instructs us otherwise, yes, it is to be taken literally. It is not the responsibility for christians to "change the world". Christians are instructed to be "obedient" unto God. God will change the world when He's ready. And yes, it is not rude or sinful when a christian calls BS on untruthful doctrine and beliefs. I see, repeatedly, what is false and against God called "truth". When I rebuke or state Gods truth, that is not rude.  |
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Date: 8/1/2003 6:34:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Thanks stormchaser, I too think that is the perfect will of God. ANd to see so much waste, makes me sick. |
Date: 8/1/2003 6:35:00 PM
From Authorid: 2030
I'm not the "Onward Christian Soldier Type" But I don't care for hypocrites, thieves, cheats, lazy, vindictive and Pompous types and fools. I suffer none of them gladly. You can be a good person, treat people civil and live your life with dignity and honor, which I personally consider living a Christian life. Except for my forementioned intolerance toward certain elements of my fellow man. Which is probably my downfall.  |
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Date: 8/1/2003 6:36:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
AMEN King Caspin, always the voice of reason and truth. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 6:49:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
No bcar its not a downfall. I dont care for hypocrites, theives, cheats , people that are too lazy to get up and try to make money to feed themselves or help anyone, and I cant say much about vindictive as oh geeze we know I can be, and although I've never thought of myself as Pompous, LOL and NOT saying your saying that I'm, LOL, but i've sure met some Pompous people that I dont care for. LOL Naw bcar, no downfall, just human feelings . |
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Date: 8/1/2003 6:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 22852
BCAR.. You said what I could not type. I Love you man... Here have a beer because I know you hate hugs. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 6:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 2030
Well thanks Storm, I'll take you up on that. Deb I guess you could say I'm not much for showing the other cheek, unless of course it's a but cheek. |
Date: 8/1/2003 7:03:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
Doing God's Will, I feel, is an individual thing which has to do with intrinsically knowing what it is that God expects of you and I think one can only be aware of this if one has a personal relationship with Him and His Son, Jesus. Following His Word, i.e., doing that which one feels He Has Proscribed by way of what the Bible says, does go in tandem with the doing of His Will. Meaning: If one just goes by what the Bible says but doesn't "feel" good about what they are doing, then perhaps they shoud be more in tune with Doing His Will with respect to themselves as individuals. "Good" Christians are those that feel that, within their individual relationship with God, they follow that which He HAS Willed them to do. To blindly follow the Bible without the "feeling" that what you are doing is right for you doesn't make sense to me. With all that said, I know that I figuratively "fight, chase, and pursue" on some posts, but choose my arguments to those with which I feel God is Willing me to respond to. I have typed far more comments than have been submitted here as I have has so-called "glitches" just wipe out my internet access (or whatever) when I try to submit something that, once I think back on, is not anything God has Willed me to say, but what my own sense of self-importance prompted me to type. Praise God! He is Far Smarter than I am! To anyone who wonders why any of us Christians come to "Debate", all I can say is: God made me with a slight touch of an argumentative nature and why would anyone who posts in "Debate" feel that someone with an opposing viewpoint (be it Biblically-based or not) should not be commenting??? God Bless.  |
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Date: 8/1/2003 7:03:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
LOL@BCAR... |
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Date: 8/1/2003 7:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
Deb, that is an excellent reply!!!!! |
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Date: 8/1/2003 7:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 22852
Thanks BCAR.. I just spit soda down my chest. You are too funny, just way too funny. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 7:22:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
I said "I can't imagine a God condoning someone to purposely and intentionally provoke a fight, name call, hurt and insult other people ALL with the end result being to convert their way of thinking and turn them into a God fearing and good person such as themself." You said "it's not about conversion." My Question: If the purpose in defending, fighting, and spreading the word is not a way to attempt to convert people or change people from not believing into believing, than what is the purpose of doing it at all? |
Date: 8/1/2003 7:23:00 PM
From Authorid: 48858
So you're admitting to Biblical contradictions then? "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you" but then, "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living...." Ps.69 2-28) or "yea, let them be put to shame, and perish"Ps.109:6-14). Well, those are a few of the examples at least.And, "So those that think some of us are hatefull christians I have to say, NOT so." Why would you say that? You think there are no Christians out there that hate? I can give you some examples: How about those who murder the doctors at abortion clinincs, or say gay men and woman should burn in hell, or harm those of different skin color, or fight blood wars in the name of their God? If that is not hate...I would like you to tell me exactly what is. Not believing in your God? I would say that is exactly what the Bible preaches...you do not believe in this God; therefore, you are condemned to an eternity of pain and suffering. I hate you because you do not love me (or believe in me). There's another one for you... love your neighbor, but keep in mind he is going to hell.  |
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Date: 8/1/2003 7:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
Those are hateful people, not hateful christians...Why does everybody blame the faith, or religion, but not the individual?? We all shall be responible for our "own" actions. Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. |
Date: 8/1/2003 7:52:00 PM
From Authorid: 21867
...don't see why anyone would say that its unChristian to rebuke and generally rage against those who attack or sin against you...heck, how many sinners have fallen to flaming swords, floods, famine and general nasty ends?? Seems to me I can indeed be all about wasting off your enemies with a smile...  |
Date: 8/1/2003 7:52:00 PM
From Authorid: 48858
So, King Caspian, you use Rev. 20:19 because it is nearest the end of the Bible or because it is in the New Testament so the Old Testament contradictions don't really matter? Well, what about Rom.4:5-6, Gal.2:16, Eph.2 -9 that say it is according to faith, NOT works that one is saved and judged. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 7:54:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
LOL bcar, thats me, I got four, count them four cheeks, and when they have turned, then its Katie bar the door. LOL |
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Date: 8/1/2003 7:55:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Storm Chaser, when they were filming the commerical yesterday the director brought some beer with her, and I KID you NOT, it was called polygamy porter beer, LOL. Tastes nasty. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 7:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
Faith saves, yes, but all must face judgment...according to both the "good and the bad" done in their life. Those who believe God, and in Jesus Christ, repent, and accept the gift of salvation will escape hell, but not judgment... |
Date: 8/1/2003 7:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 54987
Oh no not ANOTHER atheist bashing post.... when will it end. Remember this reply cos it will probably be deleted LOL. FB whoever you're aiming this post at does not find christians hateful. Some are full of hate and spite, but most are not.  |
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Date: 8/1/2003 7:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
TarHeelGirl.... I had a whole expanation typed out for you and then, we lost our power! UGH! Well, I'll try again.... The difference to me is in the approach, delivery and intention. Generally, Christians don't go looking for fights but they do defend God, the Bible or others that they feel are being unfairly mocked, scorned or criticized. We don't want to fight but know that if none of us did, we would be accpeting and condoning negativity toward God. Christians just as all others, are never innocent of handing out insults or hurtful comments but generally, we only give them back after receiving many dirogatory and personal attacks. Yes, there are those "Misguided and ridiculing Christians" out there that feel everyone who doesn't believe in God is worthless. Thankfully, this isn't the case with most Christians as they know that it isn't their job to condemn others. We should however, try to defend God, the Bible, our beliefs and the innocence of others when it is being persecuted. Of course in doing this, we must try to keep ourselves in check since it is much easier to fight than discuss. We should also remember that our intention is to inform and provide understanding of our beliefs. In most cases, I don't see that the intention of the other side is to do. It feels as if they are usually only trying to anger and dismiss us. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 7:58:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Deb, I will say a big amen to that. There are times when I want to say something sooooooooo bad, but its like God says NO, you have said enough. We must all follow the leading of the spirit, but I'm the first to admit, that there are times when I've cross the line, and while my comments have still stood, I've had to ask God to forgive me and change me from the inside out. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 8:02:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Koolade, there are quite a few posts as of late that are dirogatory toward Christians. Some were just posted yesterday and if you'll notice, very few Christians responded to those. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 8:03:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Im sorry all that I've been so slow to respond but every since moving here to utah for the season we have ONE, count them ONE internet server and it bumps me off about a dozen times an hour. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 8:06:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
AZ, there is a difference. In some post, I'm as well as others trying to comment on the post, therefore if we disagree were called all sorts of names, and this is where most of the fighting comes from. Apparently I'm not getting your point. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 8:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
I was thinking the same thing You Choose...Our God and belief are continually attacked and mocked. I think I could say safely, that it is "almost" daily. I try hard to stay out of those posts because my anger sometimes gets infront of my spirit and faith. I fail, often. I guess I am like Peter and pull a sword... |
Date: 8/1/2003 8:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
LOL@ BCAR.... tooo funny.  |
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Date: 8/1/2003 8:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 48858
My point exactly, Moe. Very few Christians DO respond. Why? |
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Date: 8/1/2003 8:10:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
The purpose is there are so many lies being spread out there, that EVEN some of the christians , unless shown the error as in the ten commandments post, start to believe them. LIVE OUT, no, i'm not admitting to bible contridictions, where would you get such a idea? Besides you are quoting things from the old testament that has nothing to do with the new covenant. I find this so funny as some things still DO have to do with the old covenant and some dont, but ya know until ya know the spirit of God, I guess its hard for some of you to discern. AND I'm not going to argue the ten points you have in your comment as each one of them is a post on its own. Please stick to the topic of this post. |
Date: 8/1/2003 8:11:00 PM
From Authorid: 47162
First of all your references from the OT are about literal battle. Of course they were to pursue and destroy. We're not in literal, physical battle today with people. Under Jesus our fight is spiritual. We pursue them with love and truth. Our enemies don't get smote down by swords, the enemy of their soul gets smote down when they get saved. As for your quotation of 1 Timothy. I don't even know if explaining this is worth the time. But I'll try. I'll preface this by saying, yes this scripture is for today. Keep in mind this was written to a Christian leader. This Christian leader was to rebuke, correct, etc to fellow Christians. Now the way we apply that today is to rebuke and correct fellow Christians.  |
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Date: 8/1/2003 8:12:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
KC... I know. It's frustrating it's like you really wanna say something but know you may say it the wrong way. I have so much fear of losing it, since well... I guess it's that italian blood in me! LOL! I know that I disappoint God in many of my replies but maybe, practice is the key? |
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Date: 8/1/2003 8:14:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Thank you KING Caspian, I agree. AGENT smith, HI buddy, good to see you. And I love your comment. KOOLADE, this is not a atheist bashing post hon.LOL I know most do not find christians hatefull, but some do, LOL as you say some are full of spite. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 8:17:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
You choose, that is right, nope we sometimes do fight, and after a long battle of post or in real life of being come against one gets battle weary and lashes out first. But we try not to, but when provoked so often its hard not to. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 8:24:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
yes, r1 and even if I rebuke a fellow christian, THEN according to some I'm not going with the will of God. However r1 can you show me the scriputre that shows that this was written to a christian leader and not all christians? LOL you choose, ,Italian blood in you and Indian and Danish in me. LOL |
Date: 8/1/2003 8:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
Those who advertise their godliness or goodness as opposed to living it, have always made me uneasy. I appreciate and relate to what Bcar said.  |
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Date: 8/1/2003 8:27:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
And Deb, that was not meant toward anyone, at all. I live my life without "enemies", at much as possible. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 8:34:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
I see what your saying shadow ghost and I know its not directed at anyone. One thing tho, what lots of us debate about on this posts can cause very heated comments, but that does not mean that we live our lives in that kind of stife daily or in the real world. I know some on usm to be viewed as the most hate filled, arrogant, Pompous, people they have ever met, yet in real life they are loving, kind and help full to their fellow person. YES, on here can give a bad clue as to what a person is really like, due to a few choice comments, but living for God and I dont say godliness as so many have a different view as what that is, I say living for God and His will can be a totally different thing that some of the ways we portrait ourselves on usm. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 8:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
You aren't understanding me because you are taking my question and thinking I am speaking about a USM issue or who and what you are on USM. I am asking a valid, outright overall question about the faith, not about you or your personal actions. You said that all the fight, chase, pursue is not about conversion. In other words that the purpose of doing that is not an attempt to convert someone who doesn't believe into believing. If that is not the focus, or the goal as the end result of the fighting, chasing and pursuing, then what is the focus or reason for doing it? |
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Date: 8/1/2003 8:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 21867
...well Debs my friend...I believe in the Lord...and that belief, while mellowing me out and giving me a sense of calmness of mind certainy doesn't neuter me or make me a chump. I won't start a fight...but if someone wants to get in my face and bring it, then I'm not stepping back either. And I would expect the same from anyone...Believer or not. Sometimes turning the other cheek merely means you get slapped in that one too. There comes a time when you have to put the Bible in your pocket and drawn out your sword...coz I'll tell ya this much, theres no love lost in the afterlife...its pick a side and go for it...believe that...Peace, |
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Date: 8/1/2003 8:46:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
hang in there all, I'll be right back, I'm talking to sixgun. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 8:48:00 PM
From Authorid: 47162
Firstborn read the first few verses of Timothy. Verse 2...To Timothy my true child in the faith... |
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Date: 8/1/2003 9:00:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
Tell Sixgun and Karma Killer HI!!!! for me.... |
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Date: 8/1/2003 9:02:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Agent Smith... Well said. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 9:25:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Ok AZ the focus in the old testament was to wipe out sin. Agent smith, I have sure missed your comments. I'm with you, LOL about turning the other cheek, LOL LOL, never heard it that way before, ,LOL, Hugs my buddy. R1, yes it says timothy my son in the faith, but hon we are all sons/daughters of the faith. Hi King I will tell them hello. I will be talking to them again tomorrow as IM TAKING the day OFF after 17 days. LOL I told them I wasnt cleaning the tents, the bathrooms, driving the shuttle bus, or answering the phones or doing faxes, and I told my daughter I WAS NOT baby sitting, I was taking the WHOLE day off for me. LOL. Thank God I got a good boss. LOL |
Date: 8/1/2003 9:27:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
I have to agree with Shadow Ghost. Many people talk the talk, but how many actually walk the walk. Anyone can boast of their works, but are we not warned against being boastful. As for respect, it is a two way street. One can only demand respect by their actions. If their actions are harsh or not favorable to others, then they cannot expect to recieve respect. One thing that I noticed, is that this post was opened with a New Testament (new convenant) verse, and immediately went back to Old Testament verses. Is not the Old Testament God's word to the children of Israel, while the New Testament his word to all men? Also, some people do take the Bible literally. The problem there is, that many words in our modern Bibles did not even exist back when the scrolls were written. Some words did not even exist 500-1000 years ago. How can one take the Bible literally when we use words today that there were no words for back then? I do know many good Christians. There is one thing that has always stood out in everyone of them. Seldom to they try to bring others into the flock by constantly speaking the word. They do so by their actions towards others. In other words, they do not just talk the talk, they do walk the walk.  |
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Date: 8/1/2003 9:30:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Ok AZ the focus in the old testament was to wipe out sin. Agent smith, I have sure missed your comments. I'm with you, LOL about turning the other cheek, LOL LOL, never heard it that way before, ,LOL, Hugs my buddy. R1, yes it says timothy my son in the faith, but hon we are all sons/daughters of the faith. Hi King I will tell them hello. I will be talking to them again tomorrow as IM TAKING the day OFF after 17 days. LOL I told them I wasnt cleaning the tents, the bathrooms, driving the shuttle bus, or answering the phones or doing faxes, and I told my daughter I WAS NOT baby sitting, I was taking the WHOLE day off for me. LOL. Thank God I got a good boss. LOL |
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Date: 8/1/2003 9:31:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Does that mean that today's objective is different? Or is the objective to still wipe out sin? What does wiping out entail? Does it mean wiping out as in ridding from the world, or converting, so that their past sins will be absolved? |
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Date: 8/1/2003 9:33:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
Anyone who "claims" to do God's will worries me, simply because, I can't even begin to name everything that has been done in "God's Name". It works both ways, those who do wonderful things because they feel "guided" and then those who bomb, kill or judge. God has never talked to anyone, at least not with proof positive. The third world countries have done much to demonstrate that thier "God" is not "our God", He is not. And we have our own homegrown nut cases right here, who "believe" they do God's will. There will always be those of us who question the ways men and women have "put forth" their God concepts. I believe, I really believe that, there are good and bad PEOPLE, those who DO good things and those who LIVE to do bad things. I have no expalnation for that, because some claim to be driven by God or Allah or some other god and some do evil just because it makes them feel good. Attributions of motive to the Almighty worry me when it comes to Religions, Opinions and Beliefs. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 9:34:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
When YOUCHOOSE said this, ,We should also remember that our intention is to inform and provide understanding of our beliefs. In most cases, I don't see that the intention of the other side is to do. It feels as if they are usually only trying to anger and dismiss us. " I want people to know that I agree with her, and this is one reason for taking the time to go to a non believers post, so we can inform over something that may have been written in error. I will be going to bed not too awful long from now and I ask here on this post that Youchoose take over for me as she knows me and basically what my answer may be. But I'm not going to bed for a few, I'll still be off and on for about forty five min, maybe an hour, but MUST have a snack. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 9:39:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Two spirits the whole bible is for our example, yes we have a new covenant with Jesus, and while yes God was talking to his people at the time which were the Jews, or Israel, its also for us as we have been grafted in. That is why some things apply and others under a different covenant do not. Even Jesus called some vipers and snakes, amoung other things. Ya know I would love to get a hold of the written word as it was written on the scrolls. Right now all we have is copies of the dead sea scrolls but when compared they seem to be word for word for some of the books in our modern bible. I'm glad you have found some good christians. FOR AUTHOR ONLY, I know what you mean but there are ways, if you still have my email addy, email me and I will tell you about it when I wake up for coffee. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 9:51:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Yes FB, go get a snack and a break or MABYE, even some sleep? This post will be here when you get back even if you actually do take the day off tomorrow... which I'd find hard to believe! LOL I'm sure everyone understands you need a break and that you'll address their questions when you get back. God bless |
Date: 8/1/2003 9:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 62100
What i want you to understand is that in any replies that I have made toward Christians..I am not bashing you or your faith..I greatly respect that you have this strong of a conviction in what you believe in, I really do. I may not come off as respectfully as I would like to at times and I apologize for that..BUT, I am not truly sure what I believe ( I am agnostic in other words)..I have this thirst for knowledge that has lead me to read alot and there is also some logical reasoning out there to sugggest that mankind amy have come into being in other ways..and my curious nature therfore questions what exactly is THE truth..without having seen anything yet to completely convince me, I prefer to remain open-minded. Therefore, when I feel like I am being attacked because I don't believe as others do, I react. I would like to believe completely in the notion of God, and sometimes the belief in him does stand out in my mind as being correct. That being said though..I believe that living my life as I do and trying my best to be a good person, treat people correctly, work hard to support my family, being honest and faithful to everyone around me and honestly caring for people is enough. I am a fair person, I don't intentionally hurt anyone and feel awful when it unintentionally happens that I do..in a nutshell, I am the best me that i can be..why isn't that enough??  |
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Date: 8/1/2003 9:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
You say it is your intention to inform and provide understanding of your beliefs, yet when someone else does the same, do you not tell them that their beleif is worng. In fact, did you not do that very thing to me, and tell me my beleifs were wrong? Is that providing understanding? I think not. That is where respect comes in. I do respect your beleifs, although they are not mine. Should you not have that same respect for my beleifs. It is our beliefs which make us into the person we are. Another's beliefs may not be the same as yours, but that person, by the way they live and act, could actually be more Christlike than most Christians. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 10:00:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
I agree with Two Spirit. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 10:29:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Xylanthia, You know you've made quite an impression on me the few times I've talked to you recently, as a very nice person. You are obviously looking for your path right now and there isn't anything wrong with that. No one can force you to believe in God and if they did, chances are you wouldn't remain a believer. That is the problem for so many, they had religion forced down their throats at some stage. You seem to sense that God exists, which means he's spoken to you in some way, hold onto to that. Don't feel that it's your imagination. Most Christians don't want to force you to convert to Christianity, they just want you to know where you are truly wanted and welcomed. You're right though, we all defend when we feel we're being attacked and we're all guilty of lashing back at times too. If you want to pursue a relationship with God, only you can decide that. Christians just want the chance to show you that you have that choice. I don't think very many people intentionally target others but unfortunately, there are some in every religion or belief-system. At least you make a conscious effort not to offend others or to mock their beliefs and that is respectable. Respect that is a large part of what so many people lack and that's why we have accussations and misunderstanding flying around today. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 10:34:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
TwoSpirit, actually, I think I first said that it is most Christian's intention to inform and provide understanding in our beliefs. FB did quote my comment in one of hers so maybe that's where the confusion came in. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 10:40:00 PM
From Authorid: 62100
Thank you, You Choose..That pretty much describes exactly what i am going through.. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 10:54:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
The fact remains, you both have told me that my beliefs are wrong, without ever trying to understand my beleifs. I KNOW your beleifs, having for years followed all the teachings of the Bible and the church. As I said, respect is a two way street. If you wish people to respect you for your beleifs, then respect them for their's, and stop saying their beleifs are wrong. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 10:54:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Xylanthia, No problem and I'm glad we understand each other. Believe it or not, I've had a certain belief-system shoved down my throat before. I also was discriminated against because I didn't want to join their denomination. In your case though, you will find where you want to be. Obviously, since I'm Christian, I'm hoping that your path leads you to God but if it doesn't, that's not for me to judge. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 10:58:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Please tell me when I said your personal beliefs were wrong? I don't recall ever saying that to you. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 11:00:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
I remember you saying something to me about how we are the ones that are lost and lack understanding. I believe my rebuttle was something to the effect of "Those are your beliefs and that is your understanding." Something along those lines if we're referring to the same conversation. |
Date: 8/1/2003 11:02:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
I don't understand your religion which is why I ask a lot of questions about it, to try to understand why you believe the way you do. But, one thing that I see over and over is that Christians demand that other people allow them to live their life by the standards of the Bible and by what they believe and are comfortable with but I very rarely see the tables turned. Christians are willing to deny another person their pursuit of happiness while demanding they be allowed theirs. They use passages from the Bible to justify the way they feel while forgetting that not everyone believes the same way. I can see how many people would see it as hateful, too me though it's just hypocritical and a total lack of empathy.  |
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Date: 8/1/2003 11:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
I guess the reality of it all is that since we all feel our beliefs are right, we obviously believe that those of others are wrong. To say we don't is kind of fooling ourselves really. The easiest way to deal with it though is to realize that what's right for one isn't going to be right for all. It can't be forced only offered. If we all had the same beliefs this world would be perfect and as we all know, it's far from it. The best we can do is like you said, respect each others. In all the debates I've been in, I've seen that everyone, including myself, has lacked respect toward someone at some point. We're all human and we just want to try and discuss issues rather than gang up on one another. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 11:10:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Base, you stated, "one thing that I see over and over is that Christians demand that other people allow them to live their life by the standards of the Bible and by what they believe and are comfortable with but I very rarely see the tables turned." I'm curious as to where you see this? Can you give me some examples? |
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Date: 8/1/2003 11:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 48858
Moe is right. We all think the opposer is wrong. But anyhow...The way I see it is, Christianity is the broken chair that many people still choose to sit on. One day, that faith will be shattered when the chair breaks...I hope I am around for that day so I can help people pick their hearts up off the floor (especially my family)-seeing that I was there not too long ago myself. Truthfully, Christians DO have many answers that could make a person very comfortable in this world, but have you ever taken the time to think about those answers or if they make any sense whatsoever? If someone sees the chair and knows it's broken and that you will eventually fall, wouldn't you want them to tell you? But you continue on, saying...Nope I do not accept that it's broken, it can't be, it "feels" fine, it feels strong...Well, that's chosing to be ignorant: when all the knowledge is there and you still refuse it because you are so darn comfortable. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 11:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 48858
BTW..."you" is in the general sense. No one, here, in particular. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 11:21:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
I can give a lot of examples. The under God in the pledge, Christians believe that it should stay even though many people don't believe in God. I don't care if it goes or stays it doesn't bother me, and so I don't see why Christians care if it goes or stays. Christians want to be allowed to pray and worship in school and to have clubs but when another religion say wicca wants to start a club you have mass hysteria from Christians complaining and writing letters to the schoolboard and going to court to deny the wiccans their right to a club. Same with gay clubs and many other clubs. Christians want to deny gay marriages simply because they don't believe in it because of the Bible. That's denying another human being the right to their pursuit of happiness. Abortions, a lot of Christians want to enforce their view of it on other people while not respecting the other side. I don't believe in abortion but I don't force my beliefs onto others. |
Date: 8/1/2003 11:38:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Livout, You are being very honest here with your feelings and I realize you're not trying to offend. Now that I think of it, I have heard someone else who was a non-believer, bring that same issue up. The problem comes in when you feel that, "the chair is unstable for all Christians and going to break." You're feeling this because of your personal experiences with Christianity or God that you perceived as negative. After these experiences you no longer believe that God or Christianity has the real truth. The one thing to remember is that not everyone has the same experiences as you. I've had many negative and terrible things happen in my life that shook my faith a bit I never totally lost my faith. Ultimately, I knew it wasn't God causing these problems, he isn't the one making bad things happen. He was the one that kept telling me to hold on, to not give up and to ask him for help. The only times that things really didn't turn out right, was when I let my very HUMAN ways and stubborness supercede my faith in God. After years and years of continuing this vicious cycle...I realized I was bringing this on myself. It wasn't that God didn't care or wasn't real, or was causing me pain, I was doing it to myself by not ALLOWING and trusting him to take over. One of the hardest things for most Christians to learn is to totally let go at times and trust God to catch you. Because they don't learn this, often this is what makes them turn from God. Then who turned in the end? God didn't, he was still there waiting for that person to let him help. I know this may seem of topic but where I'm going with this, is that true believers in God and real Christians, know that that chair will never give way. They kept that same chair, tattered, torn and weak and allowed God to fix it. When put their faith and trust into God, they didn't ever need someone to tell them that it was bound to break. We Christians aren't going to fall, our chairs aren't going to break, so long as we let God hold onto them. Hopefully, that makes sense in some way, since it is almost 3am here. LOL  |
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Date: 8/1/2003 11:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Base, thanks for those examples. I guess I'll start with the gay schools and wiccan clubs, I can personally say that I've never petitioned against the opening of these. As for other Christians, well yes I'm sure some have and that is their choice. As far as same-sex-marriages....I simply stated my opinion on a one particular post, by saying that I don't believe it's right but this is probably inevitable. Just because I don't condone something doesn't mean I'm depriving someone of rights. How am I doing that when I personally don't write the laws or pass them? Why is my belief on that not respected? If I were to say that I'm for same-sex-marriages....I'd be lying. Would that be better? I'm Christian, therefore I believe and follow the Bible and if the Bible says it's wrong and I were to say it's right....I would't be a true Christian, I'd be a hypocrit. Christians believe and try to live by the Bible, they didn't write it. They obey the word of God because they love and know that God is who they honor first. I'm not going to agree with society so I can be "part of the popular crowd." That's not the way I and many other Christians work. As far as other examples you gave for the removal of In God We Trust and such, no I am not for this. I don't understand why it's necessary and who it's causing harm to. Personally, I've never met anyone that had to be ran into emergency for lying eyes on those words. Even if I were a non-believer I wouldn't have an issue with that because I'd realize that God is representative of only good things and a reminder to all of upholding a moral standing in life. It's not saying "YOU MUST BECOME CHRISTIAN OR ELSE." That's how some perceive it though apparently. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 11:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Well guys.... I must say goodnight. This is FB's post and for the record, per her request, I was just helping out. She's having major computer issues and needs to sleep also. Anyway, some of the statements I made may not be in agreement with her. She will clarify when she gets back and probably give much better answers than I could. Have a great night everyone. God bless |
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Date: 8/2/2003 12:01:00 AM
From Authorid: 48858
Yeah, five min. to three here. I know what you are saying. I know exactly. I used to believe the same thing. I used to say the same thing to people like me. That is what I mean...all those answers that make someone feel very comfortable. Like saying, I will love you forever...or you'll get over it. |
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Date: 8/2/2003 12:05:00 AM
From Authorid: 48858
But, nothing happened to turn me away from Christianity...and I don't say turn away from "God" because it is a hollow word for me. I believe in something we cannot see, yes, but I do not believe it has any knowledge of us or itself really. Like a seed...does it know it will fall to the ground to produce a flower? No, it just does. I believe most of what we "feel" in terms of God and the comfort he gives us, really comes from ourselves. God is our excuse to believe in ourselves. And that's really all I want to get across. People are capable of growing, becoming better, evolving. And this I DO know. Look where we have come from. It's taking a lot from us to learn this. We may have to start over again, but it will happen. Not only the past, but the earth is predicting it. We are coming up to a great end, but it has nothing to do with an angry God or our inability to prove ourselves to him. It is from our inabitlity to prove ourselves to ourselves...and to except responsibility...and change. We should focus on that, instead of trying to save our souls that were never lost to begin with. |
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Date: 8/2/2003 12:09:00 AM
From Authorid: 48858
By the way...the Bible does not EVER mention the word Homosexuality (like some preverted versions state) and there is not ONE SINGLE PASSAGE about two consenting adults who want to enter into a monogomous homosexual realitionship with each other. And if anyone would like to dispute this...I have pages and pages of literal translation and proof I could give ya. |
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Date: 8/2/2003 12:17:00 AM
From Authorid: 36704
You don't have to believe in gay marriages it's your right not to, it's your opinion and you're entitled to it. You may not be petitioning against it but who is, who's the major opposers of it and why, Christians because of their beliefs. I've said in comments before there are good Christians out there, not every Christian is a hypocrit but many are, all they do is demand for things to be their way and everyone to follow their guidelines of morality and standards of living yet in this post it was said that it's not about converting people. If it's not about converting people then what's the problem with letting people live their lives as they choose if they allow you the right to live yours how you wish. |
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Date: 8/2/2003 12:23:00 AM
From Authorid: 34487
Okay, I really should be in bed....bad bad!! LOL On a serious note though, I understand what you've said here. Although you and I don't believe the same, we can discuss rationally, which I appreciate. My relationship with God isn't a lie or a comfort-zone. It's not a temporary thing either. I've been a Christian from the time I can remember. Actually, around 4 yrs old but I won't go into that long story. Anyway, there is no "other truth, real truth or anything else," that non-believers have to offer me. I know that God is real, I know his son Jesus died on the cross. It's not just some comfort I'm feeding myself, it's the truth. I have proof, personal proof. No, I can't give anyone a photo of he and myself in the Bahamas but he's always been in my life. Many countless things have happened to me by way of God. Things that have no other explanation but him. I'm not going to bore you with examples but only trying to tell you, that it's no one's job to "help us Christians not be deceived." We aren't being deceived, for we know that those that don't know God, are the ones that are deceiving themselves. God bless ya' sweetie, I truly need some zzz's. Chat with ya' later and sweet dreams. |
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Date: 8/2/2003 12:34:00 AM
From Authorid: 34487
Base, yes we do let them live their own lives. We can't control all Christians to make them not condemn others or treat people as less, we can only control ourselves. Same-sex-marriage is not in God's favor and I'm not going to go against God's favor. Not only is that wrong for anyone, it's worse for a Christian to do so. No, I'm not out petitioning against gays even though some Christians are. Does this make those Christians bad? Not in my eyes. They're supporting the word of God and that is the right thing for them to do so long as they don't harm anyone in doing so. Some Christians are quiet ones... I used to be. Those are the ones that everyone loves. Why? Because generally, they don't stand up against anything or argue with anyone in defense of God. That is why so many people have a problem with those of us that are vocal. We're all vocal in different ways. I'm vocal over the internet but you won't see me rallying on the streets. I'm not better, I'm just defending God in my own way. I'm really off to bed this time, as I don't know if what I'm saying it making sense any longer... LOL God bless you and sweetest dreams. |
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Date: 8/2/2003 12:34:00 AM
From Authorid: 48858
Jeez, and I wanted to major in Religion? Man oh man...my stomach couldn't handle it. |
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Date: 8/2/2003 12:35:00 AM
From Authorid: 34487
Alright Livout....What was that supposed to mean!? |
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Date: 8/2/2003 12:41:00 AM
From Authorid: 48858
Well, when I was a Christian and I got in Religious debates it was the same way. I don't know why I thought it would be any different now..your blood boils and you get all jittery. The good stuff to let you know you're alive, I guess. |
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Date: 8/2/2003 12:44:00 AM
From Authorid: 34487
LOL... actually, I think this debate is going good. I haven't seen anyone attacking each other. I hope you didn't interpret my comments that way. ALRIGHT, I SWEAR.... I'm really goin' to bed. Chat with you tomorrow, or the next day? |
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Date: 8/2/2003 12:51:00 AM
From Authorid: 36704
I was raised Christian You Choose and did go to church, I obviously didn't learn much while I was there lol. Even when I was Christian my definition of a good Christian was different from most people. My experience was the more someone was devoted to their faith and the one's people always said were the "good" Christians everyone should look up to and try to be like, treated their fellow human beings horribly. I never understood that and I never will, I really would rather burn in hell if there is one then have to spend eternity in heaven with the "good" Christians, just having to deal with them while on earth is bad enough. |
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Date: 8/2/2003 4:45:00 AM
From Authorid: 47296
I see many Chirstians say that although I do not agree with you, I do not sign petitions or go against you. Actually that is an impossibility. Although you may not sign a petition against gays, you also do not sign petitions supporting gays. By not accepting the lifestyles of others, you work against them, further giving those who do work against them more power. Since your convictions do not allow you to support those who you do not agree with, those same convictions actually place you against them. I also keep seeing the term "believers" and "non-believers". You call some "unbelievers", without knowing what they truly believe. In other words, you say to be a Christian, a person must beleive exactly the same as you. There are many who do not believe the same as you, who in fact may be beleivers. |
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Date: 8/2/2003 8:12:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Lordy ya'll have been busy since I went to bed, I'm now going to try to get to all of these. |
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Date: 8/2/2003 8:21:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
TwoSpirits you say, ""I may not come off as respectfully as I would like to at times and I apologize for that., """ That is just how I feel. I may now come off as respectfully as I would like and I too apologize for that. But you say that you have not seen anything yet that has completely convinced you. I've seen plenty that has completely convinced me and so I stand where I stand. I've never said that a unbeliever isnt a good person, isnt a thoughtfull,kind loving, moral person, Why isnt that enough you ask? It is for life on this earth but apparently being this way has nothing to do with our spiritual afterlife. I believe God when He told us how all this works spiritually and why Jesus came. It all our choice to take it a faith value or not. I did take in on faith. YES, I have at times told people they are wrong. I reqret doing that as that is NOT how or what I should have said. I've tried not to do that as much, and yes this is a hard one for me to do as while I do think they are wrong, I can in no way prove they are wrong as far as the spiritual aspect of things goes, and that is why I'm trying hard not to use that word *wrong* as much. Hey I'm only human. |
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Date: 8/2/2003 8:23:00 AM
From Authorid: 15394
ahhh how sad... to "And stay ye not, but pursue after your enemies, and smite the hindmost of them;"... to smite is to "1. to strike or hit hard, with or as with the hand, a stick, or other weapon: She smote him on the back with her umbrella. 2. to deliver or deal (a blow, hit, etc.) by striking hard. 3. to strike down, injure, or slay: His sword had smitten thousands. 4. to afflict or attack with deadly or disastrous effect: smitten by polio"... this is the way to deal with enemies... hmmmm ok so one is determined an enemy by say defiance of god by dis-belief... so you persue them like an enemy? Isn't deciding to rebuke them sinful, as you really don't know true hearts, or the big picture... isn't a better course of action, to pray to god for his will be done where these people are concerned, and let god do what will be, without your intervention??? just some thoughts... ty  |
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Date: 8/2/2003 8:25:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
I'm sorry two spirits I read the wrong reply, it was ,**Xylanthia "" that said that. So I guess the reply I made for you is actually for both of you. Sorry for the error. |
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Date: 8/2/2003 8:33:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
You choose, that was a very good reply to Xylanthia and I agree with what you said. Very good. *Xylanthia ** like you choose I had a belief system shoved down my throat too when I was a child, not by my parents or any relations but because I was a non mormon in a mormon community. Talk about feeling outcast and discriminated against. You cant believe the rude things said and did to me as a child and I thought then if THIS is what this so called GOD and his people are about, I dont want any part of it. I only got baptised in the mormon church as a child because my step grandmother, a mormon, insisted on it. Therefore I looked into other aspects such as witchcraft, new age and other things that convinced me for a time that I was ok as long as I was a good person. I figured I was. all was good. Then finally I discovered I was looking at the people, NOT God. Yep it took until I was 35 but I feel I have made the choice for me. |
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Date: 8/2/2003 8:40:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Two spirits, you choose is right, many times you have said we are the ones lost due to lack of understanding. That is just about the same as saying YOUR wrong. Same thing and as you say, it works both ways. BASE:::::I've never demanded that people live by the standard of the bible. I may have said what God says about what ever the situation is, but its not for me to demand anyone live a certain way, however that does not stop me from stateing my opinion on different subjects such as homosexuality or abortion. I still have the right to voice my beliefs. I dont think its hatefull or hypocritical, its a belief system. What Kind of child of God would I believe IF I did not believe what I consider to be the word of God? THAT is when I would be hypocritical. |
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Date: 8/2/2003 8:47:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
YOUCHOOSE, thank you hon, for taking care of this post for me, while I got some rest. LIEVOUT: See that once again is your opinion. You think that christianity is like sitting on a broken chair, and that it will shatter. But see I see it like this. You dont know for fact that this will happen. IF were wrong, there is no God system, Jesus isnt whom he says he is, ect ect, we have still lived according to our faith and beliefs and nothing in the after life will have really changed for us. BUT if chrisitains are right, God is real, Jesus is whom He says he is and there is a heaven to gain and a hell to shun then sister, your the one sitting on the broken chair. But see you wont be there to pick up hearts off the floor as we WONT know anything for proof postive, until we die. See I DO SEE the chair that is broken, and I"M trying to tell people to get off the broken chair, but as you say, they still choose to be ignornant when all that spiritual knowledge is there for the taking. See its remarks like that, your word IGNORNANT that starts christians making the same nasty little remarks. You speak of tolerance, you speak or respecting anothers faith, but in your comment alone, your not only NOT being tolerant, but you show extream lack of respect for anothers faith. |
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Date: 8/2/2003 8:52:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
But see BASE, you are making a blanket statement. NOT all christians rally around and try to stop other clubs, as really the time and effort involved usually is a waste of time that can be spent doing other things for God. So you cant lump christians all together like that. You say christians want to deny clubs, gay marriages, abortion ect ect because they dont believe in it, but on the other side, non believers want to take away what we have, our ten commandments, our momuments, not allow a bible into school but other books such as satanism or witchcraft is fine, even the teachers READ to our children from some of these books. So see I could say the same thing, NON believers want US to live by their code, forcing it down our throats their view, not respecting the other side, our side and going into hysteria when a prayer is said at a school function, writing letters to the congress to get In God we trust taken off from the money. See hon, it works both ways. |
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Date: 8/2/2003 9:09:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Lievout,Both Old and New Testaments clearly declare homosexual acts and "lusts" sinful, "unnatural" 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."" You keep saying that christianity is a broken chair, but after some of your comments about what the bible says and does not say, HOW can you call something a broken chair that you have not apparently studied or know nothing about? |
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Date: 8/2/2003 9:16:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
BASE you say::My experience was the more someone was devoted to their faith and the one's people always said were the "good" Christians everyone should look up to and try to be like, treated their fellow human beings horribly"" This can be true, but one cant base their personal relationship with God on how someone else acts. Personally because of this kind of actions I dont go to church. I'm still a beleiver, I still have a relationship with God and try to do what I know to do. But you need to stop LOOKING at people. God says work out your salvation YOUR own salvation, as you cant ride there on someones shirt tail, but you will be responsible for yourself. ITS not dealing with people, I use to think that way too, and I thank God I stopped looking at what the so called good christians were like in church, but hatefull toward people outside of church. Dont base your spiritual life on them. |
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Date: 8/2/2003 9:21:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Two spirits you say that by not accepting the lifestyle of others you work against them and while we dont sign petitions against them, we also dont sign things for them. How is this different from our point of view. When people sign petitions to take away our momuments, to take away In God we trust on the money or what ever it is that that has to do with God that they are trying to take away. You may not be making the petition or signing it, but are YOU signing one so that it can stay? If not your not supporting our lifestyle either, your working against us because its something You dont beleive in. And as far as calling people believers or non believers, this is referring to the Lord Jesus and whom HE is according to the word of God the Bible. If one does not believe in Jesus the God said, to believe that He died for our sins and the rest of it, even the bible calls them unbelivers. |
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Date: 8/2/2003 9:25:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Jungabel , we do pray for them. BUT when one has totally made their belief system knows and continues to degrade, humiliate, ,insult the christian for their belief, and THIER GOD, are we NOT to rebuke them back? Just some thoughts. |
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Date: 8/2/2003 10:33:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
Whoa. So much to respond to after this all-nighter by a few of you. I am going to say some things here that some of you may see as coming from a "Bad Christian" but I don't care what label is put on me. INTENT: n. design, plan, thing intended. Is anybody's "intent" ever known? We are under God's Plan so anything and everything ever done by a human being has got to be seen as God's Intent if you believe He is All. That includes murder, rape, kidnapping etc. For those people that say God is All Loving I am not arguing with that. It is the definition of LOVE that I see as the problem. We use that term in our human understanding of it, which to us conjures up the image of puppies and babies and a couple growing old together. The love of God for us does include those things, but it also includes that which goes so far beyond our human understanding in that we do not know GOD'S INTENT to such a degree of completeness that allows us to JUDGE the intent of others. Of course we do judge their intent based on our human laws and individual experiences, but we have no idea how anyone's actions are related to His Whole Scheme of things. Does God Will some people to murder? How do we know unless we ourselves are a murderer and are able to determine within our relationship with God that this was His Will for us? Sure, if we murder and are caught, our human relationship with each other is going to lead us to prison or execution, but then again, how do we know or not know if that is God's Will for us? In my understanding of Him, HE IS IN CONTROL. Believe me, I was not always a believer, and that was one of the biggest obstacles I had to overcome when I became a believer, i.e., to know that He Had His Hand in All Things. I, too, have had awful things happen to me, I have had people die way too young for my liking. It is a MAJOR shift to get my displeasure at the way things have gone (and still do go on!) to dissapate into putting All Things in His Hand, but I have come to be able to do this with Jesus' help. His message, love God and each other, is not a one-way ticket into heaven, but a philosophy to LIVE this HUMAN LIFE. If I treat people the way I want to be treated and they respond in kind, life is far more tolerable . . . but my eternal life has already been determined. It has already been determined by Him according to His Plan, and lil' ole' me doesn't have a say-so. THAT. THAT surrender to Him is so hard for our human spirit. We have so much intelligence that to just say I surrender all to Him is seen as demeaning our own intelligence and almost impossible for some strong willed people to do. I speak from my own experience. God Bless. |
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Date: 8/2/2003 10:40:00 AM
From Authorid: 36704
In the bible belt where most of the denying of other religions their right to school clubs etc, those Christians state that they are not denying the people their right to practice their religion or lifestyle by denying them the right to practice it at school. The Christians don't want their children subjected to the beliefs of others and don't want others imposing their lifestyles onto their children. That people still have the right to practice their faith or lifestyle at their church and in their home. If that works for other religions the same standard should be applied right back to Christians. By asking that you remove your religious doctrine from a courthouse wall, or asking to have under God removed from the pledge or to not have bibles in schools by the standards set by Christians it's not denying you anything. If Christians are going to tell people that they have the right to live their life any way they choose as long as their beliefs are not being imposed on Christians, then what applies to others should also apply to Christians and Christians should not complain and feel that their religion is being threatened when all people are asking is that Christians go by the same set of standards that they demand everyone else go by. |
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Date: 8/2/2003 12:30:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Deb, I love how you explained God and Gods love. AND his plan and intent, wonderful job my friend. He is in control, LOL, rather we like it or not. For me and my house, we like it. Yes BASE, it is to deny us,how do you figure that its not? The kkk can have a rally right on the court house steps yet a momument that has the ten commandments written on it has no place? To me by removing these things is having our life style imposed upon by those of different or no faith. The gay community can hold a parade, kissing each other, fondling each other right in public view in san franciso, yet this is acceptable? AND the ten commandements are not? I dont think so. I think if allowing this behavior to go on in our public streets and allowing children to witness this behavior, and yes, I've seen footage of it and it certainly hasnt been kept clean, if this is acceptable to today society but something with a few words on it isnt, something that one doesn't have to read and certainly it hasnt stopped any one from spending money because it says in God we trust, then I really feel sorry for todays society and thier priorities. God said that in the end times they would call what is good *bad* and what is bad * good* and I guess this just proves what God has said. |
Date: 8/2/2003 1:40:00 PM
From Authorid: 54111
I agree with the post. I think Some people find a reason not to believe in God. Sometimes its how some christians act. I guess as Deb said you have to feel what you are doing is right. Great comment. What I as christian is saying don't look at me and decide whether or not you want to be a follower of Jesus. We all have our faults. Look to Jesus Anybody can claim to be a christian. Everybody has their opinions. I think you have to develop your relationship with Jesus youself. You have to make the decision to believe in him.  |
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Date: 8/2/2003 2:44:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Very well said big daddi, look to Jesus not his people as we will fail them everytime. Thank you so much for coming by. |
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Date: 8/2/2003 8:38:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
TwoSpirit, In reference to your comment... "I see many Chirstians say that although I do not agree with you, I do not sign petitions or go against you. Actually that is an impossibility. Although you may not sign a petition against gays, you also do not sign petitions supporting gays. By not accepting the lifestyles of others, you work against them, further giving those who do work against them more power. Since your convictions do not allow you to support those who you do not agree with, those same convictions actually place you against them." No offense but that is a total contradiction. If this were true than the same could be said about you and everyone else. Since you don't agree with me that God shouldn't be removed from money and the walls of the court, you are going against me. If everyone did as you stated, we'd live in a perfect world and that is the impossibility. I don't have to agree with you or fight your battles, that I personally don't agree with, to be respectful of you and not infringing on your rights. I wouldn't expect you to fight battles for me that go against your personal beliefs so why would you ask that of me? |
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Date: 8/2/2003 8:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
The last two comments from BigDaddi and FB are SO true and can apply to every Christian. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 6:21:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Thank you YOUCHOOSE and thank you for taking care of the post the other night. BIG HUGS and your wisdom as far as bible matters is right on!! |
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Date: 8/3/2003 7:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
No problem FB anytime. I just feel a bit insecure about doing so when dealing with quoting or explaining Biblical scripture. At least I know where I need to study-up on things, right? Great post though. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 8:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
First off, I have never said the word God should be removed from either money or the pledge. I have though stated that the Ten Commandments should be removed from the Alabama Judicial Building. Why? One, because of the way they were placed there, and two, because the judge who placed them there is trying to impose biblical law on the people of the state, and is using that rock to prove his point. There is a place for religous icons. They should not be forced upon others though, and people should not have to enter a court knowing that the only law that will be enforced is the law that the Bible speaks of. Base is right, Christians do not want their children exposed to things they disagree with, but it is alright for them to expose other children to their beleifs. Equality? Not hardly. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 9:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
TwoSpirits....it goes both ways but you seem to only acknowledge one side. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 9:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
No, You Choose, I do not force my beleifs on anyone. As for the way I live, that is up to me, and no one has the right to tell me that I cannot live my life the way I want just because they are afraid their children will see me. If people wish to practice their religion, regardless of what it is, so be it. Leave it out of our government though. Many of those who support religous involvement in our government, are the same ones who were yelling for Bush to stop the Taliban in Afghanistan. Kind of like, "Do as I say, not as I do". |
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Date: 8/3/2003 9:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
No offense TwoSpirit, but by telling me that I should to be supportive of things that are against my personal beliefs and because I don't petition for things I don't believe in, "I'm against them"... that is very one-sided. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 10:12:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
FB does it really matter if it's all Christians that go around rallying to stop people from forming clubs or stopping gay marriages. Not all people who are non Christian are going around rallying to have the ten commandments taken down or under God removed from the pledge. Some Christians for years and years have been having books banned from school and public libraries. They've denied people of other faiths and religions their right to school clubs and to their own prayers at school. There are Christians who rally against the Harry Potter series which are works of fiction. No one claims them as the truth, but because they talk about witchcraft they're somehow evil. If Christians are going to have books banned from libraries people have every right to demand that the Bible then be removed also. I could care less about under God being in the pledge or not, just as I could care less if two gays want to be able to marry legally, neither one really has an impact on my life so I don't worry about it. I just see the Christians as getting back what they dished out for so many years. The equivalent of the little people finally standing up to the bully. Treat others how you want to be treated. Even if it's just some Christians who speak out against the way others live it doesn't matter, the small faction they speak out against has every right to demand back that the Christians play by the same rules. Seems to me many Christians don't want equal treatment, they want preferential treatment. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 10:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Base... I know you didn't direct that comment to me but you are forgetting that the Christians aren't the only ones "who dish things out on a regular basis." There are two sides and BOTH have done equal discriminations and atrocities toward one another. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 10:28:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
Yep You Choose they both do things back and forth but the Christians cornered the market on it in the 20th century in the US and now they're just getting back what they dished out. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 10:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Base, I totally disagree with you and feel you're only feeding the fire with that attitude. Off to bed, Have a good night. |
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Date: 8/3/2003 11:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
Feeding the fire with that attitude lol that's amusing. Just because I see it as the Christians are having done to them what they've been doing to people for years that's fueling the fire. Go back and look through lawsuits filed by Christians in courts in the 50's 60's and 70's. Look at the all the things they denied other people and all the books they had banned. Now people ask that the Christian God be removed from the pledge and from money and you all somehow become this great big persecuted group. You still have the same rights everyone else has. You can still worship your God, attend your Church, practice your faith in your home and have rallies and gatherings. You're still allowed to have your bumper stickers and wear your shirts and have your bookstores. No ones asking anything of you other then to not have your God forced upon them by having it on money, in the pledge or in government buildings. No other religion has their beliefs on anything that has to do with the government so why should Christians be allowed. In many schools nowadays you can't even hang a santa on the wall at Christmas time. It was the Jehovah Witnesses who took that to court. They are a branch of Christianity correct? That was in the last five years. Christians are still rallying agaisnt gay marriages, and still rallying to have books removed from libraries among other things to this day. In one breath they claim persecution while in the next they're doing the persecuting. Treat others how you want to be treated. If you want people to show you tolerance and respect then be tolerant and respectful of other people's lifestyles and beliefs. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 2:17:00 AM
From Authorid: 47296
Base, those lawsuits and efforts to change laws to reflect their beliefs goes well beyond the 70s, and is still ever present even today. They justify discrimination by using Bible verses, regardless of what the law may say. You Choose, as for you last comment towards me, it is the truth, regardless of how one sided it may seem. "In Germany, they first came for the communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Catholic. Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up." |
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Date: 8/4/2003 7:00:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
no need to feel insecure YOU CHOOSE, I've found that usm and the debate section for the past soon to be three years for me as been the best learning experience as far as bible study goes. Not that I didnt study it before, but oh lordy especially when JT and Karma were on here, you need to give them explanations and one best give them right cause they would catch it every time if you just threw some old scripture at them or something, LOL, we all need to learn all the time, no one knows it all and cant ever, so your doing great. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 7:13:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Two Spirits, I wont argue with you on the ten commandments and the Alabama Judical Building as I dont have or know all the facts on it. But YouChoose is right, it goes both ways. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 7:14:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Base: Ok, I do conceed to that point, not all unbelivers are on a agenda either. AND while I have voiced my opinion on the Harry potter books here at usm, I have not did anything to get it banned. Parents need to teach their kids and take care of all that. I dont believe in having books banned, so I dont think its fair that the bible is a no no for the kids to bring to school, in MOST schools, I'm not saying all. Well in all fairness to that statement about *getting back what is dished out* *standing up to the bully* 1. you cant blame christians today in how things were handled hundreds of years ago. Like so many blame Christians that are NOT catholic for the Inquistion and all that murder and death in the name of God. Shoot, so many are on death row for murder that claim, *God told me to do it* So should all christians take the rap with them? No, each christian is a seperate person. You could be right, some christians do want Preferential treatment and I've found that amoung the mormon church big time. But then they dont figure the rest of us that believe in the Lord Jesus to even be saved, as WERE not of their church. AND here I go doing the same thing so many do, I'm lumping all MORMONS together when I'm sure some don't feel that way. But I have noticed here in Utah, its * Dont pass out your other religiouse books near the mormon grounds, they didnt even want anyone to do it, on the public access sidewalk. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 7:22:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
"In Germany, they first came for the communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Catholic"" I love that quote two spirits, And I believe that we should speak up when an injustice is being served to any part of mankind. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 7:28:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Base, you talk about the JW,being a part of christians, one thing you do have to understand, there are many that say they are christians and I" not saying this about the JW church, but I'll compare things like this. There are many that say they are satanist, yet get offended if one accuses them of infant sacrafice or pledging aliance with satan. They say, were NOT of THOSE satanist. I ask ff666 on here he will tell you that, yet he claims to be satanist. NOW for centeries the satanist were the kind that had the covans, killed the infants, the virgin, ect ect. What I'm saying is just because a group claims the name of Christian does not mean they really believe in the bible, or that Jesus is our salvation. This is what is wrong with the church, to many MEN/Women that were in authority took stuff, ran with it and actually have caused another doctrin, something besides the gospel of Jesus to come into play. Christian, the word came because of the belief in Christ. Christ-ians, yet many of todays so called christian churches dont even believe in Christ. Personally I wish some of these would go by another name as they do a dis-service not only to the bible but to the Lord Jesus. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 10:40:00 AM
From Authorid: 36704
Warrior Spirit I know that Christians are still presently going to court and rallying to deny people rights, I just used those decades as an example. FB I didn't even bring up what Christians did to people hundreds of years ago, I purposely left those examples out even though they're far worse. I stuck to the 20th century and to the present. If you conceed to the fact that Christians do have books banned, even if you don't believe in banning books you should be able to understand why people ask that the bible be kept out of libraries and not view it as a personal attack on you or your religion. Same goes with Christians denying people clubs and fighting to deny people's lifestyles. If you step back and look at it from an unattached viewpoint, people are only asking that Christians play by the same rules as everyone else. But, if it upsets you that people go to court to try to deny you your rights as you put it, then you should be just as upset when Christians try to deny non believers and people of other faiths and lifestyles their rights. If I thought your rights were being taken away, if people tried to pass laws saying Christians could no longer worship in Church or could not own a Bible etc I would stand up for Christians even though I'm not one. I really just don't see that with the taking under God out of the pledge, or the ten commandments off the wall, it's not denying you the right to practice your faith. Is it right that Christians should be allowed things that other faiths aren't or is it right that Christians should have to follow the same rules as everyone else? |
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Date: 8/4/2003 2:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Base, I AM very respectful of other's lifestyles and beliefs... just because I don't condone something or change my beliefs to fit your desires, doesn't mean I disrespectful. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 2:42:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
No base I cant, book banning is wrong and yes I view it as an attack to Christians. We do follow the same rules, and both sides seem to be taking things too far sometimes. YOUCHOOSE that is right. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 2:48:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
TwoSpirit how I act and believe is in now way comparable to those terrible atrocities you chose to mention. Obviously, you don't respect my beliefs, since you're telling me that the only way I can respect yours or not be against them, is to go against my own. I'm sorry but if you cannot see the hypocrisy in that than I have nothing more to say to you on the issue. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 3:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
TwoSpirit.... I forgot to add that I do defend and will continue to defend anyone that is being persecuted for race, gender and personal attributes. If I were to say that I will defend ACTS that go against my personal religious beliefs I would be lying. Past atrocities in history boil my blood and if I had been alive during those times or able to help, I would've done what I could to help. There is a difference in asking someone to defend another person's right to be alive, work, be a certain race, gender, dress how they want, go where they want and be who they want and asking them to defend ACTS that go against their personal and religious beliefs. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 3:09:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
FB... Thanks. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 3:55:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Welcome. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 5:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
You Choose please show me where I said you have to change your beliefs or condone someting to fit my desires or it makes you disrespectful. I went back through the comments and I see where I said "You don't have to believe in gay marriages it's your right not to, it's your opinion and you're entitled to it." The only point I was trying to make was that there are Christians who do to other people exactly what they turn around and complain about people doing to them. If you can't look back at history or even the present and see that, I don't know what to tell you. I never asked you to change your beliefs. Yes FB, both sides take it way too far. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 7:58:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Base I do know that God tells us to pray one for another, He tells us to fight the good fight of faith. There are many things that God tells us to do, personally I dont think things like bombing abortion clincs are one of them. I dont think banning books is one of them , and if gays wish to get married well I'm sure eventually the law will allow it. In the mean time, I can tell people what God says is wrong, what he thinks about things, and while some may not agree, or believe in God and his word, thats good and fine, but in the end of my life when I go on to be with the Lord, I will honestly be able to say, I preached the gospel of Jesus Christ to a lost a dying world. I did the will of God by doing as he asks. I personally dont see whom it is hurting if the ten comandments are left on walls, or a momument or a nativity scene. I dont see what it is hurting to have the saying in God we trust on the money, it still spends the same as it did before. Now I'm not saying that I'm beyond a cuss word or I would be lying but our children are subject every day to things that we don't consider holy, yet we cant be with them 24 hours a day, there is school, there are so many things out there. How differnt is it to have these things of God around next to say the teacher that openly reads witchcraft books in school, and for the most part doesnt even tell the parent about the book that is being read? WE all have different sides of things, things that we stand up for, things we dont stand up for, all any of us can do is the best that we can do without physical harm to another. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 8:13:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Amen to that FB. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 8:41:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
:P |
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Date: 8/4/2003 9:12:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
If a teacher openly reads witchcraft books that teach religion that would be wrong, if it is a work of fiction such as Harry Potter that is not wrong. It's a pretty simple concept here. You say I don't see how having the ten commandments on a wall or a nativity scene is hurting anyone or having in God we trust on money, it still spends the same. I say to the Christians that say that, that I don't see how gay marriages are going to affect you, there will still be opposite sex marriages or how clubs of other religions will harm you, you can still have your Christian clubs. You say because it goes against my beliefs and what God says, right back at you people don't want your beliefs imposed on them simply because it goes against their beliefs. Is it harming them, no not really, the same as the things Christians fight against aren't really harming them either. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 10:19:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
How is something that says words..."In God We Trust" going against someone's religion? There is no act there. ACTS (one's actions) are what people should define as offensive in most cases. Or... when something personally hurts or harms them. There are tons of things that I visually find offensive but do nothing about since I realize I have some control over what I look at and acknowledge and that it doing me no physical harm. As for the issue of same-sex marriages...I'm not for the ACT of same-sex relationships because of my belief in the Bible, which warns against it. Therefore I'm obviously not for same-sex marriages because I believe a MARRIAGE is a sacred act, peformed before God, where a man and a woman, devote their lives to one another. Even with all of this said, can I change the fact that same-sex marriages will probably be a reality in the future, no... I'm not naive enough to believe that. Does that mean I should embrace the inevitable and endorse it, even though it's against my personal beliefs... Obviously not. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 11:22:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
"How is something that says words..."In God We Trust" going against someone's religion?" I just have to sit back and laugh at that. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 11:27:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
I was speaking in regard to how I had defined what was "offensive to my religion." Maybe you should be laughing at your own prior comments? |
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Date: 8/4/2003 11:29:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
lol ok You Choose I'll go ahead and do that just for you |
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Date: 8/4/2003 11:30:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
I guess it must pain them SO immensely both physically and mentally, to see the word God and that's why it's against their religion. OKAY? Then basically, they're saying that something that represents only GOOD is against their religion. Well, that's not a religion I would want any part of then. If they don't believe in God, fine but to say the word GOD is offensive, that's just odd. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 11:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Base, I think it's safe to say that you and I will never agree on this issue and just leave it at that. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 11:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
How is that odd if many people believe the bible to be an offensive book and that the Christian God is hateful, if someone views it as such then God does have a negative connotation. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 11:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
No You Choose we probably will never agree on this issue. I do understand that you love God and that to you he represents everything good and that your faith in him is very strong so you would have a hard time understanding why people would be offended by it because you love and place all your faith in him and I have no problem with that. I also understand though that not everyone views God the same way you do so they don't get the same feeling from seeing the word God as you or other Christians do so I can also see how it can be offensive to a person who is not the same faith as you. I simply see both sides where as you only see your side. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 11:41:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
The Bible is an offensive book?? I don't see that but I'm sure you're right, that people would perceive something so strange. It's funny that they would think the Bible to be hateful but so many other things in our society to be acceptable. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 11:48:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
No, I do see both sides... I just think the reasoning for the other side is very strange. I try to find reasoning for what I believe or how I view things, before calling something offensive. I think that a better explanation is that some people are so THREATENED by God that they'd what ever they can to make sure he and those that believe in him, are hushed and not seen. It's times like these that I reaize how human I am. I couldn't handle how unappreciate humans are for everything they're given to be slapped in the face and denied daily, as God is. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 11:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Since it is 3am here... I say goodnight to you Base.... sweet dreams. |
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Date: 8/4/2003 11:50:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
I don't know why they find it offensive, you could be right maybe they are threatened by it, I don't claim to know why they find it offensive just that they do. |
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Date: 8/5/2003 12:29:00 AM
From Authorid: 62100
I'm no expert on that as I don't care if money reads "in God We Trust" one way or another BUT, my guess would be that people who have a different religion and worship another god would be offended because by having that phrase stamped on every piece of money in the United States it is saying to THEM that the Christian God has more importance than their particular god..just a guess. |
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Date: 8/5/2003 3:35:00 AM
From Authorid: 47296
I will make this comment, and I am done with this post, since it is obvious that some people just do not get it. Yes, you do not agree with the ACTS. The fact is, if laws are put up for vote that follow the Bible only, you will vote for those laws, with total disregard for the effect they will have on others. If gay marriage is put on the ballot, you would vote against it, because you do not believe in it. Plain and simple, you would dicriminate against "non-believers" if given the opportunity to do so legally. |
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Date: 8/5/2003 8:20:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Base what do you mean if its harry potter its not wrong? It still deals with witchcraft, fiction or not, besides many people have said the bible is a book of fiction so what is the difference? But see, many christian dont do anything legally to oppose the gay marriage as they know its fruitless, God says these things will happen, so why try to fight against God? So because of the ones that ARE doing it, everything that has already been put into place about God should be taken away? I dont think so. And as YOUCHOOSE said, just because I'm not fighting against it in a court of law does not mean I have to embrace it, BUT is it going to go away? No, we have to put up with this stuff, and so there is no difference in everyone else putting up with a few words on a wall, or money. Base I think your using the old double standard here as you say,"How is that odd if many people believe the bible to be an offensive book and that the Christian God is hateful, if someone views it as such then God does have a negative connotation. "" Now lets turn that around, "How is that odd if many people believe the harry potter to be an offensive book and that the message of witchcraft in it is harmfull, if someone views it as such then harry potter does have a negative connotation." |
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Date: 8/5/2003 9:12:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Xylanthia, ya know the christians as far as I know didnt put in God we trust on the money? I'm I'm clueless as to how it got there. BUT i'm thinking if the government didn't approve of it then It wouldnt be there? I'll have to check on that when I get home from work. TwoSpirits, just as if on the voting day, they had a bill to make the bible the ONLY religiouse book to read, that you would vote against it. I mean dont say you wouldnt, as would so many others. NOT that I'm for the bible being the only religiouse book to read, because God wants his people to choose HIM because they want to, not because its forced on them. So what difference is it if I vote against gay marriages? I don't believe in it, I think its wrong, so why would I actively vote for it? Just as you would NOT activly vote for the bible to be the only book, or christianity to be a one world religion. sorry, but you can see your side of it and apparently your side only. Got to go to work, be back later. |
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Date: 8/5/2003 9:23:00 AM
From Authorid: 36704
lol oh man, I have no double standard here, it's you that has the double standard you just don't understand that. If you or other Christians find Harry Potter offensive that is your right, although most people at least the sane ones don't claim that Harry Potter is anything but a work of fiction. You say that you don't do anything to legally oppose gay marriages and you don't believe in banning books. But, that you do view it as a personal attack when people try to remove Christian things from the public view. How Firstborn is it not then a personal attack on non believers or people of other faiths when some Christians (not saying you personally) go to court to have Harry Potter and other books removed for being offensive to Christians because they teach other religions that Christians believe have a "negative connotation" or are from Satan. There is absolutely no difference, if it's an attack on you, it's an attack on the other side. I've said this many times in this post. Many Christians have been going to court and denying people rights for centuries, now people are fighting back and doing the same thing to Christians, is it petty, yes, just as petty as the Christians who started it. If you can't take it, don't dish it. Maybe if Christians would have left people alone to begin with people would not have felt the need to defend themselves and their rights or ask that anything that has to do with God be removed. |
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Date: 8/5/2003 9:30:00 AM
From Authorid: 36704
and just so there's no misunderstanding I was applying the if you can't take it don't dish it to the Christians who file the lawsuits not to Firstborn. |
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Date: 8/5/2003 9:50:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
hi base, have a few more minutes until the people come from vegas and I have to shuttle them. anyway, I'm sure they view it as a personal attack the same as I do when they try to take things away that are already established. Sure lots dont find harry potter offensive, but some do. Some dont find the bible offensive but some do. LOL base, I know you was applying it to Christians that file the lawsuit. The thing is the battle will rage and nothing we can do to stop it. Oh we can post these posts and comment our views, but life is going to go on no matter what. Could you however please explain to me your reasoning behind why you think the christians started it? |
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Date: 8/5/2003 9:57:00 AM
From Authorid: 36704
I will in a few FB, I have to go do some stuff before I leave for Vegas tonight. |
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Date: 8/5/2003 10:30:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
well base it seems like everyone is going to vegas when I'm here in Utah, LOL, most times I live about half hour out of vegas. Sure would have been nice to be closer, I'd like to meet you. |
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Date: 8/5/2003 12:46:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
Well, in my opinion the reason I say Christians started it is because Christians for centuries have been banning books and denying people of other faiths their right to form clubs and pray in schools even though Christians were allowed to do so. Long before gay rights was even an issue other religions tried to from clubs and they were denied by school boards the right because the school board members were Christian and didn't want other religions around their children. So they had to take it to court just to be allowed what they should have been allowed from the very beginning. The Christians fought it the whole way. Court cases show many lawsuits filed by Christians in an attempt to deny others their rights, did they always win. no, but the suit was filed. It wasn't until the latter part of the 20th century that people really started taking things to court to fight back. I can see how Christians think that first it's the Bible out of school, then under God out of the pledge, take out the ten commandments, get rid of in God we trust on money and it will keep going and going until all your rights are gone because it probably does feel that way, I just don't think that's going to happen. There's only going to be so many things they can find to ask to be removed, they can't take away your right to go to Church, practice your faith. or believe in your God. |
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Date: 8/5/2003 4:01:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Ya know base, I'm not denying that what you are saying is true, I've only been christian for 15 years so I dont really know what they did or did not do as far as that goes. I believe in the bible base, ,and the statement you said is, ""they can't take away your right to go to Church, practice your faith. or believe in your God. " Now out of those things, no they cant take away our belief, but God tells us in the end times, that there will be a one world religion, *not ours* and that if we dont bow down and worship this new religion that we will be basically hunted down and killed. Now lots of people say that wont or cant ever happen. Maybe not now, maybe not even in my time, but so much of what God has said, has come to pass and I think that it will come to pass also. I mean right now there are plenty of places out side the usa where they have to hide to practice christianity. Church? Nope, against he law. My faith I will always have, and my belief in God. Its just a crazy world we live in and I come to usm just to pass the time until its my time to be gone from this world. Have fun in vegas. I love to go there. Are you driving or flying? I'll bet you go with in an hour of where I'm now. LOL |
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Date: 8/5/2003 5:11:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
TwoSpirit... No offense but I don't think you're choosing to understand my position even though I've stated it numerous times on numerous posts. What is the difference between your voting for same-sex marriages to be passed and me, if I chose to which I haven't, vote against them. You say that by voting I'm disregarding their rights? Well, many of your beliefs go against the beliefs and therefore the rights of others also. Everyone would love for all others to agree with their beliefs and side with them but that is impossible. The best anyone can hope and try for is respect toward each other's beliefs. I respect your choices, beliefs and right to do as you please with your body, mind, soul and what ever. I don't however, have to believe or vote as you do to be respectful of you. That's all I have been asking for too. I'm not doing anyone any bodily harm and I don't try to hurt others and believe it or not, I'm not this person whose out to get people, as some seem to think. God bless and I wish you the best. |
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Date: 8/5/2003 6:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
If my last question was answered here I need someone to point it out for me...LOL |
Date: 8/5/2003 6:29:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
In regards to the talk about Harry Potter, there is a big difference in a teacher opening up the Bible in a classroom and reading it, than there is between opening up Harry Potter and reading it. We are taught from a young age that the Bible is by no doubt a serious religious matter and was provided by the Lord, an entity, for all of mankind. People BELIEVE that this is truth and when it is presented it is presented as if it were the truth. Now when opening and presenting a Harry Potter book, there is no one that is going to say that this is truth. The teacher will not be discussing the reasons why Harry Potter can fly on a broomstick like they would be explaining walking on water. One is ALWAYS going to be taken literally as truth because people believe that it is truth. There is no one that is going to say that Harry Potter represents truth of the Wicca, or Pagan religions. Sure they use spells but they don't carry around magic wands and fly on broomsticks..(well except LSG, but she is the only one with flying monkey's and sister that was killed when a house fell on her..:P~~~ *winks*.. ) Did the author research these religions and practices in writing her books. Yes she did, would you write a book about a traveling salesmen and not study up on geography? |
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Date: 8/5/2003 8:28:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
I'll have to get to this later, I have an emergency at home and have to keep the phone lines free. |
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Date: 8/6/2003 12:06:00 AM
From Authorid: 62100
FB..I get what you are saying..I don't know why it is on the money either and personally don't care..I don't even look at the money long enough to notice it as most of it goes out on bills as fast as I get it LOL..I was just wondering if maybe my theory was correct on why some would be offended by the words being there. Hope it was nothing serious at home.. |
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Date: 8/6/2003 7:22:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
For author ONLY. That is pretty interestng about the dream. I do know the bible says.Acts:16: But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; Acts :17: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: Right now its a secret more or less underground society and it has lots of members. Thanks for stopping by. |
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Date: 8/6/2003 7:26:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
AZ, but see that is just it, they dont view it seriouse as so many dont believe in the supernatural forces that be. But then thats another debate, LOL about your comment about the wiccan witch of the east, LOL |
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Date: 8/6/2003 7:38:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Xylanthia , on the other side of the dollar bill is a Pryamid. Inside that pyramid is a capstone having the all seeing eye, an ancient symbol for divinity.For those of us who know the occult and the Illuminati very well, the feature that stands out above all others is the All-Seeing Eye. This symbol is the single most important symbol of the Illuminati, for it exemplifies the supernatural power they wield from Lord Lucifer, from Satan himself. As you can see from this symbol on the back of our One Dollar Bill, the typical All-Seeing Eye is depicted in the form of a pyramid, shown here, hovering over the unfinished pyramid representative of the unfinished project of moving the world into the New World Order and staging their Masonic Christ. I mean if they are going to take in God we trust off then then need to take this symbol off. We know its there, but guess what? The money still spends the same. So actually the dollar bill does represent more than one religion, pagan and christian alike. Yes it was seriouse emergency, but not something I want to talk about as Im still upset over it. But thanks for asking. |
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Date: 8/6/2003 1:09:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
I don't know whether the question of the "purpose" of this type of behavior as described by FB in her post has been answered directly or not. I will give my purpose: I am not trying to get anyone to believe the way I do, I am trying to get them to UNDERSTAND why I believe the way I do. Understanding does not equal agreement. As Christians, I feel we all have a basic set of beliefs as to why we believe the way we do, but I don't think that, once we break into subset of beliefs, that any single person's beliefs are going to be 100% shared by another. Pursuing someone who mades such statments as the author in the "Blind Faith" post in order that I am understood is not trying to make him agree with me. Fighting over words such as I am doing with Xlanthia in her "Is Magic a Sin" post isn't trying to make her agree with me, but to understand what she is talking about. To chase LSG through her posts isn't trying to convert her, it is trying to understand what information it is exactly that she is trying to put forth. I am not even willing to try to convert someone to my beliefs in that while I have certain knowledge of which I am sure of, I also know that certain beliefs I hold are not due to my knowledge but to my gut instincts, and I am certainly not afraid to say that I could be wrong with certain beliefs I have. God Bless. |
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Date: 8/6/2003 5:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Fb, for the record here, I was poking fun at LSG, not insulting or trying to hurt her. |
Date: 8/6/2003 8:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
LOL...I knew that AZ. I can even poke fun at myself.  |
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Date: 8/6/2003 11:11:00 PM
From Authorid: 62100
Deb..thank you for clarifying here what I have been trying for DAYS to figure out...I can appreciate that you are trying to figure out what I am saying and I will attempt to be more clear in that debate. Understand that I am not myself well educated in certain areas and I just shoot from the hip and say what I am thinking..it may not be as clear as I would like it to be however. |
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Date: 8/6/2003 11:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 62100
FB thanks for pointing that piece of info out to me..that was something of which I was not aware..wow, I have sooo much to learn. That is partly why I am trying to explore and learn and I have so much reading and soul searching to do. I have so many questions..but I don't even know where to start..I will just keep my reading up and ask when I am puzzled..hope you all will bear with me. |
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Date: 8/9/2003 8:00:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Thanks all, Sorry to have abandoned my post but I had a family emergency. Thanks for all the replies. Xanth,,,,,,,,,,, We all have lots to learn, most of all me. |
| Date: 8/15/2003 6:09:00 PM From Authorid: 62324 I don't really think there's "BAD" Christians.We all fall short in the eyes of God.That's why he tells us to die out daily(ask for forgiveness daily).I think that if your to the point to be labeled as a "BAD" Christian the question should be,Are they a "CHRISTIAN" at all?I mean I've heard alot say "GODS" name but their actions are far from their talk.Just my opinion. |
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Date: 8/16/2003 12:59:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
BlackCloud YEP we all fall short. And praise be to God that we have an advocate the Lord Jesus for when we mess up. I know I have to ask to be forgiven daily. For if we say we do not sin, we lie and the truth is not in us. Oh by the way, welcome to usm. |
| Date: 8/16/2003 1:24:00 PM From Authorid: 62324 Thank you FirstBorn for catching my meaning there,And thank you for your welcome also.It's nice to be here,Take care. |
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Date: 8/16/2003 1:42:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Looking forward to knowing more about you and seeing you on usm. Have a good day. |
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