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Date: 7/29/2003 8:10:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Not all Christians fit the criteria you repeatedly gave. Just wanted to clarify that. As for the "Last Crusade" I've never heard of the until you mentioned it. Christians believe in the End Times and it won't be any fun for us either.  |
Date: 7/29/2003 8:12:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47296
Please stick to the topic for once.  |
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Date: 7/29/2003 8:34:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
I don't see where I didn't stick to the topic.... |
Date: 7/29/2003 8:35:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
This is just my opinion, but I believe the Christian Church in it's higher ranks is nothing more then big business. It's in it for the money and they get people to follow, believe, and donate by instilling fear and hate in them. With all that's been going on with Priests in the Catholic Church and Ministers accused of adultery and pedophilia and the courts ruling against what the right wing fundamentalist Christians believe they're becoming desperate,and desperate people are almost always dangerous. I would hope that the difference now is that people are educated enough and intelligent enough to not be brainwashed into believing the propaganda that the Church spreads and they don't turn revelations into a self fulfilling prophecy. There are still many good Christian people out there who aren't bigoted and hypocritical, you just never hear from them because the zealots with their irrational behavior and thinking overshadow them.  |
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Date: 7/29/2003 8:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
If you'd prefer me to address you question directly.... the last crusade? No, I don't think we're heading for a last crusade. |
Date: 7/29/2003 8:38:00 PM
From Authorid: 53900
I belive we are coming to the end of time...Armageddon I think it is called. I dont read the bible much so i dont know about this last crusade as it was not taught where I went to church. I suppose it could be the same thing though but yes I belive the Earth is coming to an end for many reasons not just those you mentioned.  |
Date: 7/29/2003 8:48:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
Yes, I do....I see the correlation of the "Fear Factor" being used to cause Religious upheaval. History has never fully recovered from the Crusades. I see where Natural disasters are being advertised as the "Wrath of God", for rebellion. 9/11 was blamed on "God witholding his blessings-because of abortion". Ancient fears, of a "wrathful" God, are being used to control the masses & get the $$$ to "fight the good fight". Good, thought-provoking post, Two-Spirits.  |
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Date: 7/29/2003 8:54:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47296
Base, some very good points. I know of many good Christians that fear the church has become too powerful, and that it is only a matter of time before a religous putsch is attempted on a governmental level. For those that are wondering about the title, The Last Crusade is a name that was thrown around in some religous and political circles to describe the efforts of some churches to become more involved in world political affairs. It was in repsonse to the Great Jihad of the Moslem world. I first came across the term in the mid 90s, and originally wrote this debate as an editorial in the summer of 2001. |
Date: 7/29/2003 8:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
The Earth is not coming to an end. The old worn out, out dated and tyranical methods of the Christian church is coming to an end. The answers are not contained in the theistic god concept of yesterday. With increased knowledge; education and increasing Globalization and communication, people no longer rely upon their pastor or local parish for their needs. They are being exposed to other nations, other cultures, and other beliefs, and in an instant; they are learning the truth about history and all religions.  |
Date: 7/29/2003 9:00:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Excellent Post here! Base excellent thoughts and you put it together a whole heck of a lot better than I would have...I will now await Cat's reply as I am sure that I will agree with her point of view as well.  |
Date: 7/29/2003 9:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Yep I figured as much.. |
Date: 7/29/2003 9:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
I THINK very similar to what Base said, I've seen it, lived it, through the Catholic Church, which I no longer attend or follow. I basically support my grandchildren, and care for them and the other ste of grandparents give me constant grief because "you don't go to church", but have they ever offered a dime to help out? Buy any extra clothes, food, anything??? No,,, they go to church two or three times a week, but the pastor a new SUV every year, HONESTLY, brag about THAT, and expect me to be impressed while the pastor is has been charged with pulling his pants down at various parks in this area. I don't really want to get started, I've seen too much, I'm too old to impress. But what do I think? No, No we are, at least in my area of the country very diverse, we have many cultures, many races, many people of different backgrounds. I have grown from THAT, learned from THAT, everyone does not think like me, believe like me, or even like me, so what? Who cares? Bottom line I DO not Believe the world will end or The Last Crusade will happen because of that. The earth will go on and on, while we fade away.  |
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Date: 7/29/2003 9:03:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47296
Catherine, although many are now seeing the truth, some are still refusing to accept it. |
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Date: 7/29/2003 9:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
Yes, ~Thinker~ & Two-Spirits, the Church treatened that when the world "fell away", it would be the End Times. The only thing ending, is the real faces behind the masks. |
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Date: 7/29/2003 9:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
I mean "threatened".... |
Date: 7/29/2003 9:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 58030
i remember once i went to vacation bible school at a friends church, I was maybe 6, looking back now they reminded me too much of a cult for my liking.... glad it was only vacation bible school... and that my parents never made me go to church, they were saying stuff like "in the year 2000 a great space ship with jesus in it will come and take us all to heaven" on a certain date (don't remember which) in 2000 jesus himself will come on channel 6 and talk to us...." wonder what they said to make up for that not happening... but i believe something is happening, do i believe i will see the end, not really something might happen but i dunno.... maybe maybe not... but my mother she said something that made me soooo mad, "hmm well the bible says all these floods and stuff and fires and freaky weather maybe we should start going to church..." ooo that made me mad.... this was after the time i really started reading into wicca and stuff so i doubt i would've gone even if i had.. but i do volunteer in my community and i haven't learned to say no around here in my small town... and i couldn't think of a good way to turn the pastor down when he called to wrangle me into helping with vacation bible school out here... presbyterian not really my style... the pastor tries to put us to sleep i think... not sure.... but i did like my cousins church okay, it was baptist, went with them.... okay... they didn't really meet me much... got a phone call met the preacher other than that i got left alone... and i was fine.... other wise... i dunno how i would've reacted had they started swarming me or something....  |
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Date: 7/29/2003 9:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
If anything, I believe we are involved in THIS Crusade in the Middle East which is futile, very futile, but peace? When and where can that happen when we cannot even here on USM find common ground or respect. What is respect? And how cheap and nasty does it get before people realize that everyone doesn't have to believe the same, live the same or ascribe to the same. Is it worth killing for, being nasty and hateful? Maybe that is the Last Crusade, the one where people finally learn to be decent. Why is that so difficult? |
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Date: 7/29/2003 9:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
oh, man.....Moon Storm, that is a scary thing for a child |
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Date: 7/29/2003 9:11:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47296
Shadow Ghost, I too have lived in communities that were very diverse, and where all got along. I have had neighbors that were Pole, German, Irish, Mexican, Peurto Rican, and of various skin colors. We all got along, and respected one another, although we may not have all spoke the same language, or believed the same way. Today though, I see signs of our impending doom. The push for dominance in the world, and trying to take the moral high ground in the wars we wage, are just a few of the signs. There is a sentence from the song "Silent Running" that I take to heart, "Don't believe the church and state And everything they tell you". |
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Date: 7/29/2003 9:11:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
LOL... this is funny. Have a great night all. |
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Date: 7/29/2003 9:16:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47296
Shadow Ghost, have you ever been to a Unitarian Church? I have been to one, and found people from all walks of life, and various beleifs in attendance. All were there for worship, but it did not matter to them that the person next to them believed differently than they did. They all got along, and enjoyed fellowship. A lot could be learned from a group such as that. |
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Date: 7/29/2003 9:18:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47296
You Choose, I see nothing funny when mature adults discuss topics in a decent and professional manner. |
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Date: 7/29/2003 9:19:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47296
Maybe I should rephrase that to include mature teens also. |
Date: 7/29/2003 9:19:00 PM
From Authorid: 3125
TS..I haven't heard anything about the last Crusade either unless you are referring to the times when Jesus is said to supposedly return and take some with Him and some will be left behind. Regardless, I don't think things will get to the point where a great religious revolt will happen. Some people are simply over zealous religious zealots who do not know when to stop. They overstep many boundaries and do many terrible things in the name of the very God who prohibits such things.  |
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Date: 7/29/2003 9:22:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
Two Spirit, I hear you, but I won't give up, I won't. I do everything I can to contribute to making my community better, I do. I spend lots of time, using my creditials to help those with little or no resources find drugs at no cost or affordable cost, to educate others. I really think the roots are our children and grandchildren. My own are multi-cultured, I can't ever give up, or let go that world, or at least my small part of it cannot let go and come together. That and that alone will be our greatest salvation. Each and eevery religion comes back to "that dead end", whether it be "The Last Crusade", "Armageddon" whatever, in the end, it all comes back to hatefulness and predjudice. It does. I just does, no respect for our fellow man, or his or her space here on earth. |
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Date: 7/29/2003 9:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
TwoSpirit, it is pure fear; all sorts of fears; fear of the unknown; fear of what-would-I-do-if-I-didn't-have-my-god-to-turn-to; fear of losing control; fear that all those "godless" people and their "immorality" will do all those horrible things that one was taught from the cradle. FEAR makes people angry; hysterical and dangerous. Throughout the history of Christianity, that anger has been right there behind the facade; smoldering, and seething. It will control; it will be; and it MUST prevail (to the fanatics) and the fangs are bared whenever it is questioned or criticised. They see no correlation whatsoever between the zealotry of the radical Muslim terrorists and their own wishes to dominate , evangelize, and control the world. Heck, the Catholic church, if they were to liquidate all their real estate holdings and posh, lavish cathedrals, and the billions released from their coffers, they could wipe out the national debt, and certainly wipe out most of the poverty and famine stricken and dying children all over the world. |
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Date: 7/29/2003 9:40:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47296
Catherine, fear can be a great motivator if one learns to use it wisely. Unfortunately, many succumb to fear, and allow it to control their actions. |
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Date: 7/29/2003 9:53:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47296
The hour is late, and I must get some sleep before morn. I will check in on this post in the morning, but will more than likely reserve any comments until after work tomorrow. May the spirits watch over you travels, and may you always have peace in your heart. Peace be to all. |
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Date: 7/29/2003 10:02:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
Catherine is absoltely right, what right does any church have to build huge buildings and hold vast wealth while others starve. How can we look upon those who like the Catholic Church with any but riducule. WHAT are they preserving the wealth for when others starve? If they ask for and RECIEVE money then let them show HOW they help others. Who cares how big their pocketbooks and buildings are? Why don't we ever see some REAL efforts? |
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Date: 7/29/2003 10:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
Yikes! Excuse those typos! I do and will continue to ask these questions. Lets Give the money where it should go. |
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Date: 7/29/2003 10:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
My best friend is here and would like to add her comment to the post, so I am going to make it for her. To all believers and non: First I would like to say does any God ask us to pursue anything evil, for the love of his son Jesus Christ, Allah, whatever? Did he ask us to persecute people or turn their backs on Non-believers, or as some refer to as sinners? No, he said love thy neighbor. Did he ask us to go out and criticize, persecute, dehumanize, gays, lesbians, abortionists, etc? No, he said love and treat others as you would treat yourself. Did he ask us to kill each other, human in any kind in the name of God. No, he said love thy enemy, turn the other cheek. Did Jesus use a supernatural power to kill off those who killed, persecuted, tortured, etc? No, he left it to man to make the right decision. He never used a weapon to physically harm someone, or used his tongue to verbally scold the sinners, infact in the Bible, Veronica a known sinner, was allowed by Christ himself to wipe the lord's bloody face. Jesus used word of mouth to preach to WILLING followers (mainly due to lack of technology aka, pens, paper, mini-vans, or the expensive car you drive..:P) and to those in the Bible who clearly were sinners, oddly enough he spoke fewer words. Personally I believe regardless of the Bible stranglers, that there are many chosen people and just because some claim religious titles other than Christianity, doesn't make us unworthy or unchosen. Christ in my opinion walked humbly and did not participate in such infantile and time consuming nonsense, like gaining acceptance from USM Christian members to do Un-Christian like works against non-Christian title barers like us. Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. If you truly are a Christian then who are you trying to convince, yourself or Jesus Christ? He's listening so thou shouldn't lie. God Bless, A Good Catholic. |
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Date: 7/29/2003 10:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
thank yolu, Az.... |
Date: 7/30/2003 12:09:00 AM
From Authorid: 48858
Actually, I like the term...the Last Great Crusade. It foreshadows the end of this priest run business. Though, I am sure it is not in the Bible nor will it be very great at all. It is sad that so many have been duped though. I look forward to the time this scriptual tyranny is broken and we can devote our time to man instead of God and to civilizing ourselves instead of saving our souls that were never lost.  |
Date: 7/30/2003 12:18:00 AM
From Authorid: 22080
we are experiencing a crusade, dont know if its the last, probably gonna be americas last with how thin bush is spreading the army  |
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Date: 7/30/2003 6:10:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
Shadowghost says "I won't give up; I do my part.." and that is what we ALL must do. THE WILL TO TRUTH IS THE WILL TO ACCEPT REALITY. Our long term survival as a species depends on us accepting truth, and that makes us stronger. Jessica (love for 2Pac) send me a message last night, wherein she ask me a question and that was why I said that the Earth is not coming to an end. She went on to mention things that are happening such as ozone depletion, global warming, wars, etc. I promised her I would answer her on this post. |
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Date: 7/30/2003 6:36:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
We have a civilization based on SCIENCE and technology, but many people do not even have even a basic knowledge of or understand science and technology. That is a clear prescription for disaster. And when ignorance forms an alliance with power, sooner or later that volatile mixture blows up in our faces. With science, the scientist doesn't react to criticism with anger and denial; they don't try to ban or suppress, or even kill those who oppose and or reject their ideas and theories. They don't say things like "Now, hold on a minute, my idea ain't doing you no harm, so why are you bashing my beliefs; why don't you just shut up and go away; besides who are you to criticize ME?" That isn't how it works. The hard but just rule is that if it does not work, you gotta throw it away and devote time and energy to new ideas that better explain the data and get to the facts of the matter. We ALL have to understand and know that VALID CRITICISM IS DOING US A FAVOR. On the other hand, on the flip side, you have the doomsday people, the pushers and purveyors of falsehoods; those people who don't know; don't care and don't want to know's. They run everything through the metaphysical, mystical, religious mindset screen, and if it doesn't jive with their comfortable 'already-mind-made-up-biblical-creed', then it is not even considered. SCIENCE and technology....education, is the key. It is the way out of poverty for developing countries. More than half of the students in American graduate schools are from other countries. Here in our country, there has been a steep decline in critical thinking faculties, and a lazy, lethargic populace that has become awash in a sea of complacency and reliance upon junk science, pseudoscience, and bad science which drives out the good ,so much that there isn't room for the findings of Science. |
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Date: 7/30/2003 7:05:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
Grinding poverty, famine, diseases are not the manifestations of divine anger and punishment for "sins" against a god!! IT IS THE RESULT OF IGNORANCE. ALL those things are a direct result of IGNORANCE. for example: In many African countries, superstition rules. Some tribal leaders ban the use of condoms because it is believed that it is a "waste of the seed" or something, and that a man is not really a man if he does use those things. Rape is not punished, but the female is! All sorts of crazy things like this reign; thus you have the horrific spread of diseases. In fundamentalist Muslim countries, the religious practices are positively a hindrance to education and progress. Bands of religious police ,armed and on the look out for anyone who does anything that is against their religion, and the barring of education and working by girls and women. Take a look at any of the countries that have civil wars, tremendous bloodshed, oppressive and supressive regimes, and you will find EDUCATION is of little or no value, but religion DOES. |
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Date: 7/30/2003 9:20:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
Sadly some do think that it will effect their salvation if they dont send money to evangalist, but this is just not true. Granted it takes money to buy air time, radio time, ect to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ and for us that wish to spread the gospel or hear the gospel on tv if we cant make church or dont go to church, when we have some money we will send some, but its not a requirement. AND sadly people think we believe its OUR way or NO way, which is not what were trying to get across. We try to get across the options that were given, and some choose to not believe God. And thats OK, thats their right but for every person that wont believe God their are those that when they DO hear, they do believe. We can't make people make a choice, but we have the freedom to tell them of the options that we believe in. You say a sudden surge in religion and I've noticed just the oppisite. *sp* Forgive my spelling its not that great so I Praise God for spell checker when I'm writing my books. But back to the topic, I've seemed to notice a surge in things that are occult. On tv, internet, movies that are being made, its this one can tell your future, or about all kinds of majic, and demons ect ect. I don't think the churchs were content with just teaching the word of the Bible to the church or the people in the town as God has always said, "Go into the world and preach the gospel of Jesus" Its just now in the past fifty or so years that we have had the media at our disposal for wide spread teaching and preaching. I dont agree with how some christian are handling the abortion clinics or gays ect, and one can NOT judge all christians on their behavior. Yes God did fight many holy wars with His people to wipe out the sin of those nations, as some of those nations thought nothing of burning their babies to keep their gods happy. Sure Jesus was sacraficed for us, but it was HIS choice to do so, unlike babies that had no choice. People of their nations had no thought at all or compassion for human life. The fact of the matter is we cant make the prophecy happen, it will happen in Gods time and not ours. The other fact is that yes we may gain in numbers but it will be the christian that is taken out and not the unbeliever. The end times will happen when God says so, as far as this being the last crusade, some think yes, some think no. I'm not God so I cant say.  |
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Date: 7/30/2003 9:26:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
I will have to get back to this post later as I should have been to work ten minutes ago but I did notice a couple of replies that I want to address before I go. Thinker is right the earth is not coming to a end and even if Jesus did come back for his people this very mintue the earth still would not come to a end for 1,000 more years so those that are living now, have nothing to worry about. OH and contrary to popular belief, fear is not an issue. See my post. I do conceed however that there are LOTS of preachers and people that use the fear tactic and I think that is wrong. Oh my God, I'm getting as bad as some others here for my long replies. Guess I need to change that. |
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Date: 7/30/2003 10:13:00 AM
From Authorid: 58030
LSG actually i was a pretty smart kid, i'm like balogna and went back to my books, i did make a pretty cool little space ship out of foam with 2000 on it.... lol, and it stayed in my mind long enough that i tried to get channel 6... |
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Date: 7/30/2003 10:14:00 AM
From Authorid: 58030
but really we're not gonna no it's the end until the end comes up and bites our noses off, |
Date: 7/30/2003 2:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 36967
I agree that this nation has problems, the problems you pointed out, why are you blaming the Conservatives/Christians for the problems, I am sure that not only the Conservative/Christians are involved(I believe that some of them call themselves Christians, and maybe some of them are) I am sure that Many Muslims, Liberals, Athiests, Enviromentalists, Wiccans, Buddists, Jews, Feminists, Satanists, Native Americans, etc. are involved in the problems you mention, but why are you only pointing the finger at the Christians.  |
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Date: 7/30/2003 3:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Drkptrs, The MAJORITY religion is Christianity. Plus, I don't see Wiccans, Buddhists, Native Americans, atheists, etc. evangelizing, sending off missionaries to convert; or as they have humongous HISTORIES of such things mentioned as the Christians. You've ask that question so many times before, and it has been answered. Just like a number of other questions which keep being ask, but no one seems to remember the answers; perhaps because you don't understand it or wish to accept it....I don't know. |
Date: 7/30/2003 3:24:00 PM
From Authorid: 47162
I don't think there has ever been a cessation in the Christian cause to win people to Christ. This is a cause that will never stop. It can't be stopped. Christianity in it's truest forms, answer every problem to the human condition. Maybe this will be the end to those who use Christianity in the wrong way.  |
Date: 7/30/2003 5:12:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
If you don't see it, it's because you have blocked it from your sight. You yourself have tried to "convert" and have preached "your" truth. You are the Jerry Falwell or Pat Robinson of Atheism.  |
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Date: 7/30/2003 5:22:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
There is no "blocking from sight" of anything on MY end, KC. Quite the opposite. MY eyes are WIDE OPEN. They USED to be. To bad it took so long to UN-BLOCK them after a whole lot of years. As for your slanderous referal to me being like Falwell or Robinson; that is a cheap shot and instead of you offering anything of any import and substance to the topic of this post, you only feel the need to slam and slander. Whatever.., KC, I have no doubts as to who is the one within the realm of reality here. |
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Date: 7/30/2003 5:23:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
There is no "blocking from sight" of anything on MY end, KC. Quite the opposite. MY eyes are WIDE OPEN. They USED to be. To bad it took so long to UN-BLOCK them after a whole lot of years. As for your slanderous referal to me being like Falwell or Robinson; that is a cheap shot and instead of you offering anything of any import and substance to the topic of this post, you only feel the need to slam and slander. Whatever.., KC, I have no doubts as to who is the one within the realm of reality here. |
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Date: 7/30/2003 5:30:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
It was a comparision. The two I mentioned are as "zealous" or "passionate" about their "belief" as are you. Anyway, if the shoe fits, lace it up.... |
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Date: 7/30/2003 5:36:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
No lacing to be done here, KC. In no way does it fit; as I don't even need to try it on. I can tell just by sight alone that it doesn't fit. So stop trying to force the shoe sell on me, k? |
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Date: 7/30/2003 5:38:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
I never was a good salesman anyway...too honest...forget the laces, how about some slip ons??? |
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Date: 7/30/2003 5:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
If there is an Admin paying attention to this post, it would be nice if they would delete all the posts started with KC's slander on down and including this one, since it is KC's intent to trash post's such as this. Apologies to Two Spirit, if the deletion isn't done. |
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Date: 7/30/2003 6:37:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47296
KC, please keep to the original topic. We are not here to discuss how people veiw each other, but whether or not we are on the verge of what has been penned as the last great crusade. |
Date: 7/30/2003 7:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 61977
I do not veiw things as you have stated in your post, about my beliefs as a Christian. I do not beleive in the last crusade, I believe in the end times and I do believe it is upon us. I do believe in tithes as the body will take care of each other when the end is at hand. While the people of the world will continue to feed on society and adapt to the ways of the world our faith and spriritual understanding will grow. This was a good post. We all have choices in the path we choose to take, I have chosen mine just as all man kind has, I respect their veiws I am not one to judge another. I enjoyed reading everyone's veiws here. Thanks and peace be with you all. See ya.  |
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Date: 7/30/2003 8:03:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
The last I checked, I was still free to reply to replies. But maybe that has been changed as well...freedom, something very much in jeapordy these days.... |
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Date: 7/30/2003 8:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 58030
kc i don't think TS wants his debate deleted because 2 people couldn't stay on topic and keep they're slander, and personal attacks where they belong.... and nobody else really wants to read this junk... |
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Date: 7/30/2003 8:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
Try to picture what this world might be like today if all of the energy, time, intelligence and billions of dollars that have been poured into religions over the centuries, right up to and including today, had instead been devoted to agriculture, medicine, science and engineering. Take the thousand human hours per year per person devoted to bowing, kneeling and praying to invisible gods, redirect them toward improving the human condition, and the possibilities are mind boggling, almost limitless. We might have found a vaccine for smallpox and perfected birth control centuries ago. Today cancer and viruses might be conquered, poverty and hunger eliminated, the world population stable, drug addictions unknown; birth defects and congenital illnesses eliminated, the environment healthy and pure. These are not impossibilities. We are a clever species. Given the time, such accomplishments are within our grasp. We don't lack the talent. These are accomplishments and realizations that I DO believe in. I believe that any Last Crusade must be humans coming together, are we learning nothing from the turmoil in the Middle East. Like Base said,"desperate people become dangerous". Why IS that ignored? In addition to our unfortunately frequent inclinations toward violence, we humans also have impressively frequent inclinations toward love and compassion. Imagine if we developed that human compassion to its fullest-again, the focus of secular humanism. Imagine a world where every baby that is born is wanted…….where no children are frightened with tales of hellfire and devils…….where there are no "holy" books espousing sexism and religious bigotry…….where individual self-esteem, not a sense of sin and guilt, is valued and encouraged in all the world's children……. where "holy" wars are nonexistent……. Try to imagine…….Peace on Earth. |
Date: 7/30/2003 8:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 54987
Good post Two Spirits! Remember Tammy Faye Backer?  |
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Date: 7/30/2003 8:46:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47296
Imagine there's no heaven, It's easy if you try, No hell below us, Above us only sky, Imagine all the people living for today... Imagine there's no countries, It isnt hard to do, Nothing to kill or die for, No religion too, Imagine all the people living life in peace... Imagine no possesions, I wonder if you can, No need for greed or hunger, A brotherhood of man, Imagine all the people Sharing all the world... You may say Im a dreamer, but Im not the only one, I hope some day you'll join us, And the world will live as one. |
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Date: 7/30/2003 8:47:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47296
Brenda, your response made me think of that song by John Lennon. |
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Date: 7/30/2003 9:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 58030
man i wouldn't mind puttin that on my profile on aim.... such a good quote thingy... |
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Date: 7/30/2003 9:26:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
Two Spirit, John Lennon will always live in my heart, and Imagine will always be the most beautiful words I've ever read. Thanks for understanding, you always, know exactly the meaning. I do tend to ramble, but John Lennon, he was MY hero! He loved you, and me, and everyone. I just believe that he did. His writing came from the heart. See what I mean? I'm drifting away from your post, but IF there IS a Last Crusade, let it be for Peace, ON EARTH among man. Why is that so hard? |
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Date: 7/31/2003 5:39:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
Imagine....a society....where individuals grow freely.......; and where hate and greed and envy ...die because there is nothing to nourish them. *I think this is from a Bertrand Russell quote* Ilove that John Lennon song as well, Two Spirit. When those towers were burning, the words and the music came to me and this song , the words ..no heaven.........no hell below us....nothing to kill or die for............no religion too; all these replayed and echoed over and over. Two Spirit, I re-read your words in your post "the more they are persuaded to *MAKE* the prophecy happen..."; and a profound chill runs down my spine. |
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Date: 7/31/2003 12:20:00 PM
From Authorid: 3125
Problem is..The words in "Imagine" are the words of a dreamer. The words are all about a fantasy world. We cannot wish away reality. |
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Date: 7/31/2003 12:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
The fantasy world of the religious fanatic IS "reality" in their minds. Thus, I'd much prefer John Lennon's version of a 'fantasy world' any day. |
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Date: 7/31/2003 2:09:00 PM
From Authorid: 3125
"The fantasy world of the religious fanatic IS "reality" in their minds." I agree to some of what you say..Those who go out and demonstrate against anything they don't agree with, be it homosexuality, abortion, sex education in schools, etc. Those who commit such crimes as killing doctors who perform abortions, bombs or burns clinics, harasses nurses who work these facilities, beat homosexuals, threaten and harass school board members for allowing sex education or diversity classes to be taught are all living in a fanatical fanasty world and they do these things all in the name of God who strongly teaches against such things. To them this is reality because they do not truly know the teachings of God. Many follow the teachings of man in which God tells them that in doing so this often times will lead man to the destruction of themselves. Unfortunately man thinks he has all the answers, but in reality..he knows nothing. |
Date: 7/31/2003 2:52:00 PM
From Authorid: 54111
The Last Crusade Yeah yeah, people are doing stupid things like making a big protest of the sins of the world. But are those people christians?? Really true christians, to be so upset with a cause that they bomb shelters and fight other people KILL? Of course they are says the unbelievers, they are afraid. Jesus will determine the Last Crusade\end times. Some people do use fear but if you are true christian you have no fear. Fear of what Hell? Not me.  |
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Date: 7/31/2003 5:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
tonight I went to my son's orientation. He is going into Middle School. At the end of the orientation they were covering after school clubs-sports clubs-honor society clubs-art club-christian club.....???? CHRISTIAN CLUB???? Yeppers, Christian Club. The only religion represented. Am I gonna complain? No. Am I going to form a Pagan/Witch/Wicca club? Nope. Because I do no believe in teaching people under the age of 18 years, Wicca. That is my personal call. But trust me, Christianity is in no danger here in the Bible Belt..... |
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Date: 7/31/2003 6:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 36967
LSG, Why don't you believe in teaching Wicca to anyone under 18. If that is your religion, why not teach those so that they will be more tolerant to those of your religion. That response, surprise me. Answer me either open or private. |
Date: 7/31/2003 7:21:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
Simple...I respect the wishes & rights of people living in their Parent's home. I would never teach anything that would contradict what a parent believes. See, parents are responsible for their children's Religious education. And, even with my own children, who are Christians, I make sure they are taught the Bible. Actually my daughters are adults. My 11-year old son, prays every night, and I make sure he is taught about the Bible & who Christian's believe Jesus is. I also teach him, what I believe. And, what other's believe. I told him to talk to "God", the way he would me, or his Grandparents, or an Adult he loves. But. see, he is my son. I believe that when you are in your parents home, they should be your teachers. Just my opinion....thanks for asking  |
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Date: 7/31/2003 7:23:00 PM
From Authorid: 58030
younger people often get a bad view of what they "think" wicca is and they can misuse it, i remember when we were in 4th grade "the craft" came out and we all watched it and so a bunch of girls started trying to form a group... i was like the 5th chosen.. cus the people weren't talking clearly so one girl invited a 4th and another did and one other.... lol in fact one of us became gothic another, and then myself and another girl are into like wicca and meditation and stuff |
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Date: 7/31/2003 7:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
actually, Derek, the way I "teach" my religion to anyone, is by example. Unless they are in one of my classes...... |
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Date: 7/31/2003 7:26:00 PM
From Authorid: 58030
yeah see it's also harder for kids to deal with people who want to like i dunno shun them or whatever because they're different... although i kinda wish there had of been a wiccan group at my middle school, i might see about something like that at my highschool... hmm dunno.... |
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Date: 7/31/2003 7:27:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
Moon Storm, I own the movie on DVD. The funny part is, the one girl (who played Nancy) really IS a Witch & owns an occult bookshop. But, I thought the movie gave the wrong impression about a lot of things. But, that's me. |
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Date: 7/31/2003 7:31:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
I think all groups SHOULD have a club, if they wish. The Goths, the Wiccans, the Christians. I am NOT saying, take Christianity out. I am saying, "be fair", and "stop singleing people out". you know? It's not fair. I could actually start trouble about public school property (& tax dollars) supporting a religious club, by why bother? All I would do is alienate the people I am trying to reach> |
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Date: 7/31/2003 7:31:00 PM
From Authorid: 58030
after i started finding stuff out... i thought the same thing... |
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Date: 7/31/2003 7:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 58030
well no we could, i could have last year, i actually know about 4-5 people that would have attended |
Date: 7/31/2003 8:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 59876
i can't even begin to imagine a last great crusade, nor do i think we are in the end times. i guess i'm not sure exactly what you mean. a crusade as in christians rising against the world or the battle at the end times? or something more? as for after school religious clubs, no problem i think as long as a parent is aware. it is a parent's job to guide their child and i don't think other adults should be influencing a child in religious, moral, or sexual matters without their parents knowledge. never have seen any thing other than a christian club though. i would think with as diverse as religion has become that there would be other clubs besides christian clubs.  |
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Date: 8/1/2003 2:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 36967
LadySpirit Guide, I do agree with you on many of the points. |
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Date: 8/1/2003 2:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 36967
LadySpirit Guide, I do agree with you on many of the points. |
Date: 8/2/2003 8:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 62100
If we are on the path to a last great crusade it has been brought about by two things..greed and the quest for power..these two things are at the root of all of the hate and fighting. Everything revolves around money and power..even religion sadly..  |
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Date: 8/2/2003 8:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
Our potential is not unlimited but it is vast. There is so much we can do, so very much, to make this world, if not perfect, at least safer, healthier, cleaner and a hell of a lot more fun. John Lennon may have been expressing a melancholy, illusory dream. But we have it in us to live that way. We do. We have as many kind thoughts as ugly ones, and the more kindness that fills the world the more lopsided that lovely ratio would become. Love begets love. Just imagine if we truly lived like that. Imagine. And I confess that I am a dreamer, and hope for the reality of mankind to come together, sometimes by simply "letting go" of "religion" and "belief", where does it start? We all know where it ends. |
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