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Date: 7/27/2003 7:26:00 PM
From Authorid: 28848
I don't have any faith in our government. and if anyone were to put their faith in the gov before their own religion then I truly feel sorry for them. I think most people have a problem with the prayer and commandments being taking from public places because it's presence helps to influence others, at least that's what I believe.  |
Date: 7/27/2003 7:30:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
Release..ya exactly. They want the gov't to influence people. It's the CHristians job to influence this world. Christians don't need the heavy hand of gov't doing our work for us.  |
Date: 7/27/2003 7:30:00 PM
From Authorid: 48689
I hope that I don't sound a little too defensive, but OMG. I don't know who you've been talkin' to, and what kind of christians you meet, but whoo-eeeeee. GOD is SO SO SO SO SO much more powerful that some stupid government! And NOT all christians 'throw a fit' about things like the pledge and the ten commandments. Here's something to think about- all the athiests are throwing a fit becuase God IS in the pledge. So what? If our kids have to deal with cussing in schools (which the schools don't do diddly about) then their kids can deal with God being said in the pledge!  |
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Date: 7/27/2003 7:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 48689
Yeah, but those are THEM! |
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Date: 7/27/2003 7:32:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
Urban girl watch the followers of Jerry Falwell, James Dobson, Pat Robertson, sometime. They are in a literal panic over this stuff. |
Date: 7/27/2003 7:34:00 PM
From Authorid: 22080
r1, may i bare your children? oh crap its not possible, i agree with you 100% if you didnt catch that  |
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Date: 7/27/2003 7:36:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
jestr..lol..ummm let me check out your profile...ummm...lol |
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Date: 7/27/2003 7:38:00 PM
From Authorid: 48689
Now, ok, my school has never prayed for any reason, so that's not really the issue I am addressing...but why do the athiests have to fight to get God out of the pledge? Why can't their kids just NOT say it? There are more christians in the US than athiests...how do they feel about the pledge? God in it is not necessary, but it's already in there. Why make such a big deal to get it taken out? I hope you can see my side of the arguement. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 7:41:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
Why is it the govt's job to make any statement about God? It's the job of the people to live for God. The gov't doesn't need to say anything. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 7:43:00 PM
From Authorid: 48689
No, but didn't they choose to? Did we MAKE them do it? |
Date: 7/27/2003 7:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Urban cow girl, YOU don't know what you're talking about! Badly misinformed at best. The "Under God" part is AGAINST the Sepration of church and state which is in the CONSTITUTION. The pledge of allegience was god -FREE until 1954. The original words were "One nation, INDIVISIBLE, with Liberty and Justice for all". FOR ALL......that means ALL people, of ALL beliefs!  |
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Date: 7/27/2003 7:56:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
One of the main objectives of our founding fathers was to protect the minority from the majority. They saw that under a democracy that the minority could be harmed. So just because the majority votes it's religion in, doesn't mean the minority has to endure it. |
Date: 7/27/2003 7:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 13897
Urban Cow Girl- you know what? religion is a personal thing. it should be kept in the home. it does not need to be in any gov't document or statement. the reason is because since we have freedom of religion, favoring one kind of religion would be unfair. i don't care if there are a lot of christians in America- it is not a theocracy. it should not be treated as such.  |
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Date: 7/27/2003 7:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
R1, just the other day, the huge plaque containing the Ten Commandments which stood outside the entrance of the Wyandotte County Courthouse (for 41 years), Kansas City, Kansas, was REMOVED. Just a month ago, it was removed from the one in Judge Roy Moore's Courthouse in Alabama. Mythical gods have no place in any public arena, schools or Goverment buildings. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 8:02:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
Thinker, I agree. I can be a follower of God and an influencer of my culture, without my gov't doing it for me. |
Date: 7/27/2003 8:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 16849
In case anyone was wondering, the original pledge written by Francis Bellamy was like this: "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."  |
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Date: 7/27/2003 8:10:00 PM
From Authorid: 16849
Lol, I probably should have read the replies first.... I see Thinker beat me to the point. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 8:12:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
R1, THAT is precisely what genuine, kind, loving and HONEST christians practice. They do believe that "Let your light so shine..." and "By your fruits ye shall be known..." kind of living. *sigh* THOSE ARE RARE, my dear, but they do exists. I would give my life protecting them and their beliefs. It is the liars and twisters and abusers, and users....the hypocrites, and dangerous fanatic and fundamentalists, that gets MY dander up. It is also the same ones who DO "Throw a fit" whenever ANYTHING they are doing is criticized and questioned. I wish I had a quarter for every downright nasty and vitriolic Christian that has screamed and ranted that I should go live in Afghanistan or anywhere else if I don't believe in the "Under God" part or whatever in the pledge; and they even tell me I am not Patriotic; tell me I am not a "real" citizen, etc. etc. Wooooo boy! I'd have a fat bank account for sure. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 8:14:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
THinker..ya..it's like the whole point of America is that we are free to express, believe what we want without having to be influenced by the gov't. |
Date: 7/27/2003 8:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 4614
I have faith in our government...When my paychecks start coming to me with the signature "god" on it, then maybe I'll change my mind...  |
Date: 7/27/2003 8:34:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
I do not put faith in the government because I have witnessed first hand how it abuses that faith. I also do not put faith in the church, because I have seen how the church abuses the beliefs and rights of others. This morning, I watched a preacher on televison talking about how our government is falling prey to those who wish to do away with Christianity. I listened to him for about 10 minutes, and then turned away. No one wishes to do away with Christianity. Some of us just do not want it shoved down our throats, or as a part of out government.  |
Date: 7/27/2003 8:46:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
As a Christian, these issues do bother me and it's not because my faith is solely or mainly in our government but because my faith is in God first. I care that our government is losing it's respect for God when it owes God everything it has. We are the great country that we are because of God not because of a lack of him. No, removing elements of God from government won't remove his being but it does make others lose sight of who they owe their allegiance to. Like the old saying says... "if it's not broke don't fix it!" I don't think that removing God from elements of government and society serves any good purpose or cause. God represents everything that is good and moral, how can that ever be bad. I can see why this is upsetting to many people, especially parents. As a parent, I want my child to be reminded of God and know that by doing so, it doesn't do ANYONE any harm.  |
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Date: 7/27/2003 8:52:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
You choose, but it's not the governments job to make people aware of who people should acknowledge. That job belongs to us! We're passing the buck when we rely on gov't to do it for us. We shouldn't rely on uncle sam to preach about God, we should take up that task as individuals. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 8:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
R1: One thing you forgot to mention in your post is that regardless of whether Christians want this "removal process" to happen or not, it will. Its prophesized.... that our government will turn it's back on God. Removing him is a part of this process. For most Christians, it's no surprise that this is happening and we also know that it's basically inevitable. That doesn't however, mean we have to like it or endorse it. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 8:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
No, we shouldn't pass the buck but personally, I don't know any Christians that are. It is possible to teach your children about God, guide them in the right direction and still RESPECT God with regard to what he has given our country. If your post was more about not fighting the inevitable, I'd probably be more agreeable. I will stand up for God and never deny him for anyone. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:04:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
you choose..in a way i do support removing all the references to God in the government. Having in God we trust on money does not change hearts to actually trust him. Having the ten commandments up does not change hearts to follow them. Making kids pray in school does not change kid's hearts to make them want to talk with God. Unfortunately we think the presence of these things changes peoples hearts. Maybe once they are removed, we will quit relying on these false means of trying to change people's hearts. |
Date: 7/27/2003 9:04:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
Neither, I have faith in neither one. Both are questionable, IMO. I live by my own morals and standards. I am human and accountable simply by my own heartfelt standards. Having decent morals and feeling right and wrong comes from INSIDE first, having doctrine is secondary. If you do not, DO NOT have basic human human compassion, then trying to follow DOCTRINE is useless. And that is my own thought and opinion.  |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
While we're at it why don't we remove anything and everything that offends anyone? Then, we'll have no rules, no references, no morals, reminders of right and wrong, no conscience. That is a world I hope I'm not around to see but unfortunately, we're on our way to seeing it. |
Date: 7/27/2003 9:09:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Its not panic, contrary to what some would think here at usm, this country was brought forth on christian principals. Everytime a country has honored God, the country has prospered, but God is not being honored anymore, the things of God that have been taken away, just shows this plain as day. I dont give a flip what so many unbelievers think but since prayer was taken out of schools, since God has been all but banned from so many place, our children have become more immoral than before. Its like they have no respect for adults, they have no conscience rather they hurt anyone, babies, adults, brothers sister. So many are for themselves and no one else. IT WAS our government that projected the truths of the ten commandments, it was our government that allowed us to have as much say in what our children were being taught as the unbeliever did. I don't think the government should FORCE prayer, or require reading the bible as a school activity, although it was part of the school activites many many years ago. No were not passing the buck, were just concerned for our rights that are slowly being taken away. AND it will always amaze me when christians dont seem to give a flip about God being IN this country. In our lives.  |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:11:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
you choose..woe there..there is a difference between maintaining justice and stating religious beliefs. We can maintain justice and laws, but we can't rely on the gov't to advance the name of God. That is our job. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:12:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
NOW after reading some of the replies RI, NO ITS NOT that we want the government to influence people. BUT we dont want the unbeliever doing it either. URBAN GIRL, well said! |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:13:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Thinker that is a load of hogwash. IT IS NOT seperation of church and state, honey read up on it, your the one that is wrong, I laugh when people that are suppose to KNOW better, always misquote that and try to make it sound like something its not. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:13:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Support for the removal of God from all references in government is supporting others denial of him. That's the beginning of the domino's effect that will happen. God will be removed from little things at first and then, it will be an all out cause to remove him from anything and everything. Unfortunately, some will never be satisfied until they don't have to read the words God anywhere and that is what's scary. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:15:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
firstborn i really don't think it's a solid coralation between no prayer in school and kids lacking respect. I mean when we had prayer in schools we allowed slavery and the oppression of minorities. We were in a civil war when we had prayer in school. I mean the presence or the abscence of these things doesn't equate to anything. We've had tough times as a nation with and without these things. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
WE each think we have been around a while, that our 20/30/40/50 years on this planet is quite a long time, that we have seen a lot of changes? On our time-scale, you're probably quite right. On the time scale of this planet, in geological time, you might as well have never existed. I think one of the reasons that many people turn to religion is the human mind cannot easily comprehend the vast scales of time and space in the universe. To us, two-thousand years (since the birth of one J.Christ) is a huge amount of time. Look at what we've done since then, discovered America and Australia (although the Indians and Aborignes might dispute that claim); discovered how to refine crude oil, allowing us to build cars, planes, spacecraft; we've been to the moon and the bottom of the sea. What accomplishments! The universe is estimated to be about 15 - 20 thousand million years old. This planet has existed for about four thousand million years. The last two thousand years are approximately 0.00001% of the planet's age. Mount Everest, the highest point on the planet, is composed of marine limestone. It used to be under the sea, but slowly, millimetre by millimetre, it has been pushed upwards (and continues to do so, as India collides with Asia). You might think a year is a long time, but can you even begin to comprehend the lifespan of Everest? Our planet is one tiny insignificant rock orbitting one average, ordinary star in the outskirts of the Milky Way, itself just one ordinary galaxy among billions. When you look up into the night sky on a clear night, you can hardly see any stars at all. If you could see all of them, if our eyes were better and there was less dirt in the universe, the sky would be completely white. There would not be the smallest gap between the stars that you see. (in theory, anyway, see the footnote for more details). For every star that you can see, there are thousands of galaxies, each containing thousands of millions of stars. The Milky Way itself is an insignificant speck. Our solar system is an insignificant speck within that. The image at the top of this page is from the NASA archives. It was taken with the Hubble Space Telescope, and the area of sky that is represents is approximately 1/30th the apparent diameter of the full moon. As you can see for yourself, it is packed with galaxies. Galaxies, not stars. People think that we are somehow blessed or special, so of course the Creator Of The Universe must have set aside this little corner of the universe just for us. Religion used to teach that the Earth was the center of the universe, the single most important place that God created. Now, we know better. Or think differently. If the Earth was destroyed tomorrow, the universe would neither miss us nor mourn our passing. Would you notice one grain of sand missing from the beach? We think we are special, and that supremely powerful beings look after us. We are not special, we are simply the result of a (probably very common) chemical accident billions of years ago, in a place where the conditions are right for life to flourish. The same thing probably happens all over the universe, and in many places there will be life. Some will be more advanced than us, others less advanced. In many places, the conditions will not be right for life. There are probably entire galaxies or clusters of galaxies where life will never arise, because the conditions there are too extreme. Galaxies with supermassive black holes, areas of stellar genesis (such as the Orion Nebula), maybe regions close to quasars may never produce life due to intense radiation or gravitational disturbances. We are certainly lucky, yes, but special? No. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
R1: Disrespect for God, is the removal of him from our doctrine, laws and other tributes. There isn't a nice way of removing God.... it will be all or nothing see. No, I don't believe justice and laws will be maintained once God is removed, that's a wish not a reality. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:19:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
you choose..so what if he is removed from all that stuff..so WHAT! Our faith stands! His law is written in my heart, not on the dollar bill, or on the court walls or the school walls. We whose law is written on our hearts are supposed to influence the kids and the culture. God through us...not through slogans on moeny and on walls. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:19:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Mythical Gods thinker. LOL LOL, honey sorry but that is one thing YOU cant EVER prove.PYRO, yes LIBERTY and justice for all, so taking down anything that is christian is NOT giving us liberty or jusice is it? RI actually what thinker is saying, is not, ""They do believe that "Let your light so shine..." and "By your fruits ye shall be known..." kind of living. *sigh* THOSE ARE RARE" its more like OH GOOD another quiet christian. You have won her favor *dearie* because of your lack of concern about what God would have for this country. Let me ask you Thinker, HOW is a copy of the ten commandents on a wall influencing you? Do you have to read it? Do you have to adhere to it? Do you have to live your life by it? I think that half the garbage that we have to see , hear and put up with everyday should be taken down as well, but GUESS what, its called LIBERTY FOR ALL. Not just you. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:22:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
Firstborn if we stinking put Jesus in our pledge and national anthem and everything, it would not change hearts. Why must he be on those things? Because you want to rely on those means to advance the name of God. If those things advance the name of God, that is less work for you. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:23:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
And yes, some of that was copied, I we are star stuff, we cannot discount Science. Without science we are blind and followers of ancient belief. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:24:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
I'm very vocal in my faith. But I do not expect the government to expand the influence of my faith. Uncle Sam doesn't have to preach the gospel for me. I'm called to preach it not uncle sam. Us, the church are to boldly live and proclaim the truths of God. The government is not the church. We are the church! And it's our job to do it! |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
I guess I'm strange, I just cant see a christian supporting the removal of all references to God in the Government, when it was our government that allowed God in. I don't think its the government job to preach the gospel but I dont think its the governments job to remove all that we hold dear just for those few that dont believe in God. But see R1 THOSE times, the slavery and such were laws of the land. You cant possibly tell me that things were as bad then as they are now. Sure there may have been a little bit of back street abortions, but they didnt have like a million a day as they do now, and no hon, its not because the population has grown so the numbers have grown, its because of the pure and simple disreguard for LIFE. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:27:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
firstborn the fact is that things were bad back then and they are bad now. In the past we enslaved people and oppressed them. In the present time we kill babies. Both are blemishes on society. The fact is that society is always evil. It's just at this time we are practicing a different kind of evil. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:29:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
No r1 that is where your wrong, its NOT the need to put things on walls or in song ect ect, its to HONOR God. Gee maybe that is a concept your not aware of.Dt:6:5: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. Dt:6:6: And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: Dt:6  : And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. Dt:6  : And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. Dt:6  : And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates."" I choose to HONOR God in the way that he asked. I have to leave for a few mintues but I will be back. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:29:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Relying on man to set our laws, create our moral code and excecute justice... is a very terrible thought. Why do you think our court still embraces the practice of swearing a witness in? It hits the heart of most people with a conscience or knowledge of God to speak the truth. No man will ever be able to stike a cord in man's heart like God. Many people feel that they don't need God or they outright deny him, that can be due to nievity and arrogance. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:32:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
firstborn so if our gov't doesn't do these things we can't still honor him? See what I mean? You equate the ability to honor God with the presence of these things in the gov't. Who did God write those things to? His people or to some gov't? He wrote them to his people of course. It's our job! He commanded US! He didn't command our gov't to do it. He commanded us, His people to honor him. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:34:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
No offense meant R1 but by embracing the removal of God, you're unknowingly endorsing the removal of him altogether. Trust me, you may think your faith is so strong that you can stand alone without the government backing you up... but you're wrong. If we are alive to see the end as a Christian you will be persecuted and scorned... and those are the nice things. You won't be able to run about the streets praising God and singing hymns. You'll be lucky to own an Bible because you're country forbids it. Now do you see where I'm going with why you shouldn't allow the removal of God? |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:35:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
firstborn i think you proved my point. You posted commands God wrote to his people! His people were to do these things. Failure to have our gov't do these things, doesn't mean that we his people are not loving him or are not honoring him. Frankly the gov't could have his commands everywhere and that wouldn't mean we his people would be honoring him. Our 100% honoring of him does ot depend on the gov't having these things up. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:36:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
It is really futile to even try to engage in a conversation/discussion or debate with someone who does not know anything about the topic. Furthermore, they don't even WANT to learn anything. ALL they can see, through their blind rage , is that it is in opposition to THEIR rigid dogma. With this firmly established, one has to just INVOKE the laws; and leave them to their delusions; keep an eye on them and call it a day. Firstborn....we've been down that road so many times. I have no interest in your rehashing the same ole worn out twisted and delusional "facts" of YOURS. So go pound your chest, jump up and down, rant and rant....you only are preaching to the choir. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:37:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
You choose. So what if I die for my faith. So what if I get killed and oppressed and can't legally praise God. So what! The early church did all those thing without concent of the roman empire. They were persecuted, killed and on and on. The roman empire at that time didn't honor God one bit, but the people of God honored him well. See my point? The people of God can honor him even if the gov't doesn't do it. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:39:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
You choose...keep in mind the christian church existed for over 300 years before the gov't backed them up! God was fully honored in that environment too. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
R1....WE are representative of our government and therefore that is why we want his presence to remain a reflection of that. WE are responsible to honor him yes and we do that in many way. One way is to show tribute to him and respect through his NAME. His name is GOD and removing "In God We Trust" is removing the honor and respect we've bestowed upon him. It's symbolic, it's not an excuse for us to "pass the buck." |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Yes, the people of God can represent him even if the government doesn't but I tell you, it makes it almost impossible. What happened to the Christians during the Roman Empire is minor compared to what will happen to us in the future. Why promote it? Why help it along if you're a Christian. A Christian should be fighting for God, not against him. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:45:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
Thinker, I'm way too tired, and dont't care enough, LOL. But if someone lives a decent life what other reasurrance should they need? I have passed it on, I don't need schools to do that. I paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for that in that past. Christian or Catholic, too many obstacles and "passing the buck", there is nothing WRONG with living with basic HUMAN MORALS. Anything less is "passing" the "buck" and not accepting responsibility. Anyone, everyone, who NEEDS to be driven by fear, or retribution needs to rethink their own values. Their own common sense, we don't need much to survive in the REAL world, but human decency DOES goes a long way. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:45:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
I fight for God in real tangible ways. Keeping this stuff up will not change anyone's heart. I think by expending so much effort on maintaining these things, we end up neglecting the real tangible ways we can truly honor and expand His name and change hearts. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:46:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Don't think that we don't need God seeded in our country. Once God is totally removed the garden will have even more weeds and be so unkept that it will be unlivable for anyone, especially Christians. Don't promote a cause that will be working against you in the end. The Bible prophesizes all of this and the removal of God's name is part of that. I'm sure you're familiar with this right? |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:49:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
You choose there you go again. If the gov't doesn't have and promote God, then the kingdom will wither. That's the kind of thinking this post is about. The kingdom of God is actually known to expand in the midst of persecution. Maybe if you want to expand the kingdom you should support things that will cause persecution. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
R1: I think you had good intentions with this post even though I don't agree with it. I think you're a good person but I think you're being influenced by resources that may seem harmless but are not. I understand that your main point is to focus on the "bigger picture" of honoring God in our personal lives. Yes, that I would agree with but I will NEVER agree with the total removal of God. To do so,is allowing God to be dishonored and that isn't something a Christian should promote. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 9:59:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
As Christians we are called to promote and advance the glory of God. I think the method to do this is not through gov't. I think the method to do this is through us individuall and corporately through the church. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 10:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
The Church needs to have the right to do so....remember. If those rights are taken away, we will not be allowed or able to honor and praise God. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 10:03:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
you choose actually if those rights are taken away we will not be able to do it legally. We'll still be able to do it, but we'll probably get jailed for it. But hey the early church did and the faith grew greatly. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 10:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
A reflection of 9-11 can say a lot. So MANY people that didn't believe in God or have religious beliefs shared in prayer for our country. What does this tell you? WE as a people, country do need to honor and show respect toward God. Everyone of us needs him, even those that don't know they do and deny him. 9-11 showed that as a country we go to God when we need but neglect him much of the other time. A country that turns it's back on God, is a damned one. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 10:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Oh yes, we can still honor God, BUT what about our right in the way we honor God? You say, " who did God write those thing to? His people or the government? As you will notice in the old testament HIS people were the government and those that honored him not only in private but in public, had good sucess and prospered. You also seem to forget that this united states, this government WAS founded on Christian prinicpals, so why should we have to pull out from honoring God the way we have for such a long time, just to appease a few that THINK and go into a PANIC because of something written about God on a wall, or a pledge or a song. |
Date: 7/27/2003 10:12:00 PM
From Authorid: 53052
great post!!  |
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Date: 7/27/2003 10:13:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
No, I havent proved your point. My point is that PEOPLE put these things up, Rather it is a nativity scene or a statue, or the bible that was in court rooms, or being able to pray at the beginning of a school function, I DONT give a flip about the government, YOU seem to keep saying the government, my main concern is NOT what the government should do to honor God, but what they are allowing others to do to not only take away our personal religiouse freedoms, but our rights away. I mean good God, ,people are coming unglued because some people put up a nativity scene in the park. So my friend its not the panic of christians, its not the governments job to preach but it IS their JOB to uphold our rights as well as the nonbelievers rights. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 10:15:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
It is really futile to even try to engage in a conversation/discussion or debate with someone who does not know anything about the topic. Furthermore, they don't even WANT to learn anything. ALL they can see, through their blind rage , is that it is in opposition to THEIR rigid dogma. With this firmly established, one has to just INVOKE the laws; and leave them to their delusions; keep an eye on them and call it a day. THINKER....we've been down that road so many times. I have no interest in your rehashing the same ole worn out twisted and delusional "facts" of YOURS. So go pound your chest, jump up and down, rant and rant....you only are preaching to yourself. YEP down that road and you know I"m right about the seperation of church and state. So no lets not go there. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 10:15:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
Everyone has to find their own salvation, their own meaning. In life and if it makes sense to you, brings you meaning, then that is great. Anything less is never good enough. I will always look further and deeper inside myself. Anything less is never enough or never another person's perception not always my own. Considering all the cultures and beliefs I live and work with, anything less would be desceptive. And considering the vast differences, why should I not continue to quest and seek for truth? Until something besides being absolutly moral and decent makes sense, I will abide by what stays and remains constant. Being a decent human being with consideration and feeling for others. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 10:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
r1 you said you fight for God in tangible ways? Could you please explain some of them? |
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Date: 7/27/2003 10:19:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
Firstborn GOd isn't honored by the gov't because they put up in God we trust or because they put up the commandments. God is honored when the gov't does the things. We have a false sense of honoring if we think merely by putting these things up, God is being honored. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 10:21:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
Firstborn well these tangible ways include verbally witness on my own. Praying for people. Giving to those in need. Attempting to love people. Doing good works. God gets honored when his people actually do stuff and not just when they post his stuff up a wall or on a dollar bill. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 10:23:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
No r1 you apparently have a false sense of something when you are setting here and agreeing that the removal of all things about God should be taken out of the government. ONCE AGAIN incase you didnt understand it the first , second or third time, I"M NOT saying that its the governments place to preach, BUT you keep avoiding the issue or OUR rights, our religiouse freedoms and the fact that IF God is not in this land, judgement will come on this land and its already started. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 10:24:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
R1: Are you wishing for persecution or something? Remember, you're only human. You aren't as stong as God and God knows that we as humans have endless limitations. No Christian will be happy about living in a world that dismisses and disallows their beliefs and practices. Please, don't wish that upon us....it wasn't beneficial before and it will be even less beneficial in the end. Are you familiar with Revelations? I'm just curious because if you were you would recognize that the removal of God and the rights of Christians to worship are not something we should be welcoming. Ultimately, we shouldn't worry with fear but have faith in God but we definitely shouldn't promote this distruction. By welcoming the removal of God and his name you are doing so. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 10:26:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
In the very end, we have to each, be accountable to ourselves. In the very end. What we are and who are. What we believe in and hold dear make no difference to another, but I believe that respecting the opinions and beliefs of one another, knowing that each of us are different, and have different life experiences, just through our work or our cultures, bring different acceptance. Sometimes an understanding that life is not always ours to define or bring meaning to others. How vast is understanding and to limit ourselves to simply our own conception of what makes sense is self limiting, and futile. We cannot change the thinking of another and we should never want to. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 10:26:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
FIrstborn interesting thought I just had. We have a believer in office. A strong Christian! Yet his judgement has already started. Just goes to show we can have all the Christianity in leadership we want, it won't change hearts. It's our job to do it. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 10:36:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
you choose. History shows that God's kingdom actually grows when their is persecution. When the people of God are in comfort his kingdom is usually not growing as good as it could. Remember in Acts, it took them being persecuted for them to evangelize outside of their zone. So think about this. If lack of persecution doesn't expand God's kinggom as much as times of persecution, shouldn't we be wanting persecution? I mean if the expanding of the kingdom is what we desire then we must choose the thing that expands it the most. |
Date: 7/27/2003 10:38:00 PM
From Authorid: 55967
I'd say you have a good point, but I disagree with your own answer. It's true that real Christians do not have to worry about social reform if they have God in their hearts because God works individually on inner experience, but I don't think that these other people put God and the government on the same level when they oppose these rulings. I believe that since this country was partly founded on the separation of church and state leading people to practice the religion of their choice freely, these people today, for whatever reason, see this right being tightened and made smaller, and are afraid of once again living in a country where their practices may be oppressed.  |
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Date: 7/27/2003 10:43:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Shadow ghost, I agree that we can not change the thinking of another, but that is just what is happening when they take away the thinking and thoughts and rights of a person because they happen to be christian. I'm not saying take out any of the rest of the stuff, AS its always going to be there, but to take ours and leave the rest of the junk? Nope no just. R1: Maybe your just not getting it, our leader can be a christian, BUT as a nation, a nation that is going down the tubes as God gets further away from it, isnt a good thing. Why do you think God has allowed the united states of america to prosper like it had done? Because it was a praying nation, a nation that believed in the Lord, that even, yes even the government went by rules and laws of God for the most part, that is why this nation isnt scared of anyone and were such a tiny nation next to so many big giants, YET we have prevailed. ""Dt :19: And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the Lord thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish. Dt  0: As the nations which the Lord destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the Lord your God. "" See God destroyed the ungodly nations , ,they perished, and now that this nation is going ungodly we too will perish. It started with 911 and it will continue. This nation is NOT immune to having things done to it like is going on in Iraq and other places. Because christians KNOW what can happen YES its our own personal responsiblity to pray, but its also our responsiblity as a nation. IF the unbelievers dont want to pray for this country, then let them remain silent. NO one is forcing them to pray. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 10:46:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
R1.... No, I definitely will not hope for further persecution of Christians. This is inevitable but I will not try to promote it or endorse it in anyway. If I did, I'd be endorsing disrespect toward God, his people and his name and should then wonder if I was truly Christian by doing so. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 10:47:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
firstborn chances are unbelievers don't pray anway. we can have all the religious statemens we want on everything..it won't convert the unbeliever and make them pray. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 10:51:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
firstborn that's been my point all along..what you said...."R1: Maybe your just not getting it, our leader can be a christian, BUT as a nation, a nation that is going down the tubes as God gets further away from it, isnt a good thing. " We can have all the christian things we want in gov't but we the people must change...ahhhh... |
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Date: 7/27/2003 10:54:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
well then r1 if we can have all the religouse statements we want on everything, then why do you advocate the removal of God anywhere in this nation? You seem to forget that the eye is the gateway to the soul. That seeds that are planted may take root and grow, ,but IF they EYE cant see the seed that is planted how can it grow? You forget that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, so if that WORD is taken away then how can one have faith to find God? I was an unbeliever at one time, but I'm praying now. WHO are you to say that perhaps something that catches ones eye, or a word they hear or a prayer offered up at a school or any other function may not be JUST the message at the time that is needed? I find it funny that everyone says take God out of government, YET when each president is sworn into office there is a preacher there giving a prayer in the name of the father the son and the holy spirit. |
Date: 7/27/2003 11:03:00 PM
From Authorid: 3321
I think this is an excellent point and debate, R1.  |
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Date: 7/27/2003 11:04:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
I would say it is true then. Many Christians in America do trust the gov't more than God. We've seen a couple right in here that have argued passionately in favor of having the gov't be the means of advancing God. They seem to think that if gov't doesn't do this then God isn't honored. They are putting their faith in gov't to this. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 11:07:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
The thinking of some in here seems to be if Gov't doesn't acknowledge God then his cause can't be advanced. Their faith is clearly in gov't! The marks of your faith being in God would be if you believed his cause could be advanced without any gov't involvement at all. The passion you use to say gov't should be the means of advancing God, shows the amount of faith you put in gov't |
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Date: 7/27/2003 11:15:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
You said in your post, Jesus freaks,""Christianity isn't just about verbal evangelization. It's about a life style that matches a life of love lived by Jesus."" Yes Jesus was love, but he was also intolerant of the religiouse leaders that spoke in word but not in deed. He also didnt stop preaching or trying to reach the masses because the roman government told him to stop. No, r1 your WRONG WRONG WRONG, our faith is not in the government, its in God , and by GOD our rights should not be taken away from us by the government. So if YOU wish to lay down and let the government take everything that we believe in away, well you just do that. You keep making false assumptions even tho I've told you ten times about this goverment issue thing, YET you cant seem to answer a question, YOU said you fight for God in tangible ways, I want to know how? What do you do? Besides make many posts against Christians, their rights, and their beliefs. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 11:20:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
Firstborn well these tangible ways include verbally witness on my own. Praying for people. Giving to those in need. Attempting to love people. Doing good works. God gets honored when his people actually do stuff and not just when they post his stuff up a wall or on a dollar bill. ---the same tangibly ways the early church used..before they had the gov't on their side. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 11:23:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
R1, YOUR ASSUMPTION that YOU know I'm placing my faith in the government over God, is VERY wrong. My faith is in God first and the proof of that is in my determination to fight for him and his honor no matter what. I'm not trying to be rude here but you seem to be placing your faith and honor in the government over God, since you seem to care more about the removal of him than the importance of his presence. I think you're unknowingly fighting for the opposition. |
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Date: 7/27/2003 11:24:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
wow even Jesus honored God when the roman gov't of his time didn't honor God..interesting thought there..*shrug* |
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Date: 7/27/2003 11:28:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
As Christians, we should stand together, not apart and hold one another up....as a nation. Your point of showing honor in other ways and areas is fine but showing honor as a nation is extremely important too. Once again, the Bible speaks about the importance of us doing so.... AS A NATION. FB is correct...nations are blessed and protected when they honor, respect and worship God. That too is very obvious historically. |
Date: 7/27/2003 11:31:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Have a great night everyone.... I need some zzz's. ~ God Bless  |
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Date: 7/27/2003 11:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Yes r1 , I witness to, I pray for people, I give to the needy and at many times have taken in people into my home, not one at a time, but like twenty three at a time, I minister to many here on usm. AND yes, all that is good. But you seem to forget about Gods plans for this nation, what this nation was founded on and our basic human as well as religiouse right that we have. You wish to just throw away everything that Gods people have worked so hard for, so that masses can know, not just a few we talk to. Actually the government isnt the highest priorty here, its WHAT the government wants to do, and that is take away what steps have been made, for a few like thinker that think God is all hogwash. ""Mt4:14: And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations"" In the high tech world that we have today, this preaching of the gospel of the kingdom of Jesus Christ, has many ways to be preached, by the ten commandments on a wall somewhere, by having God in our pledge of alligence, by emails, web sites, a nativity scene in a park, one the dollar bill, WHY go backward to the way the early church HAD to do it cause it didnt have this high technology? WHY take away the preaching of this gospel in the manner that so many men/women fought for and yes some died for? I'm sorry hon, but your playing devils advocate everytime you diss a christian for wanting their rights to remain established. I think you need to do a little more reading on HOW this nation was founded, what this nation believed in and why they prospered, it was GOD plain and simple by people that honored HIM with their lips, their ways and their nation. NOW I'm going to bed as talking to you about this is like talking to a brick wall. Its been real and its been fun but it hasn't been real fun. Goodnight. |
Date: 7/27/2003 11:40:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
R1-this is without question, one of the finest debates I have ever read on USM about Religion. Your points are so clearheaded, and healthy....I am deeply impressed.  |
Date: 7/27/2003 11:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 34814
Man this is one of the best posts I have ever heard. Good job!  |
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Date: 7/28/2003 4:23:00 AM
From Authorid: 47296
I am reminded of a sign I saw on a church last week. "The Lord Jesus blesses those countries that win souls". When I read it, I had to shake my head. Countries do not win souls. In fact, America was not built as a country to win Christian souls, but as a country where anyone could come and live in peace without fear of persecution whether they believed or not. While many of the men who framed the first laws of this country may have indeed been God fearing men, they knew that no man should have to live under the rules and laws of the church if that was teh way he felt. For many years now, the church has tried to force it's way into the politics of this country. First, by running candidates for office, and now, by trying to force laws through our government that will set and establish a Christian way of life in this country. Yet, Christians get mad when other groups try to get laws that favor their personal beliefs. Again last week, I read something in the paper that made me stop and think for a minute. Sen. Jeff Sessions, from my very own state, made a comment concerning Pryor's bid for a federal judgeship. When the topic was raised of Pryor's beliefs, Sessions stated that there are millions of people that believe the same way. Well Mr. Sessions, there are also millions of people in this country who donot believe the same way as Pryor. In fact, Mr Sessions goes as far as refusing to respond to letters from those who believe different than him. He has proven that he does not represent all people, but only those who believe his way, the Christian way. I have seen preachers on television come very close to crossing the line where the 501c3 (non-profit organization) status is concerned. Some actually have, yet the law looks past it as a minor faux pas. Yet, let any other group in this country stumble across that fine line, and their status is withdrawn. As a veteran, I support anyone's desire to believe the way they wish to believe, pray when and where they want, and live the way they wish to live. Do not however try to get laws passed that dictate your faith to others. That is not what government is about. This country was not founded on "In God We Trust". If memeory serves me, that was added during the Civil War. "Under God" was not added to the pledge until the 1950s. The 10 Commandments did not first appear in a courthouse until about 75 years ago. Today, we are being force fed all these things. Has anyone looked at other countries to see what happens when religous beliefs are forced on those who do not want them? We recently fought a war in a country where the beliefs of some were forced on the whole, yet we have people in this country who believe it is right for our government to force the will of some in the religous community on others. The darkest days of history are filled with the will of the church being forced on the people. For some reson though, few feel the need to study history deep enough to see that. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 4:29:00 AM
From Authorid: 13897
wow.. this morning, there were only maybe 20 replies, and i come back to what now.. 90 something?? gah! anyways... what i've read, it's all been very interesting. and i really think that it is in everyone's best interest to keep gov't and religious matters seperate, because they are very seperate things! and i think that christians just get very afraid when ANYTHING about their religion might have some opposition. I think it is important to remember that this country is supposed to be for all people.. all kinds of people with all kinds of beliefs.. and the gov't should stay out of personal beliefs because it has nothing to do with it. =) |
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Date: 7/28/2003 4:57:00 AM
From Authorid: 47296
FB, do you know how this country prospered? It was not by faith in God, but done on the backs of slaves, and at the barrel of a gun. Even where there were no slaves, people prospered because of the toil of slaves elsewhere. Our countries history is full of stories where the gun rules the day, and other people were made to bow down to the will of those traversing this country. The bloddiest war in our history was fought because the government wished to force it's will on the people where it was not welcome. Because the people lost, today we must all suffer the will of the government, and today, the church is trying to do the same thing the government did in 1861. Read the history of the founding fathers, and you quickly find that not all were upstanding Christians. There beleifs were varied, and there ability to follow the tenets of their belief also varied. They all understood one thing though, and that is that their beleifs should not be forced on any man in this country. In many of the cities and towns that cropped up as people traversed westward, there were no churches for years. If people wished to worship, they did it at their homes, or in the homes of neighbors. When churches did come, in some towns, they met with ridicule. Today though, we have churches everywhere. In a one mile circle, there may be as many as 15 different beliefs represented. I also have seen many churches go under, because they have been unable to force their will on the people in their neighborhoods. Yes indeed, study the history of this country, what it was founded on, and how it prospered, because it is a far different history than some believe. |
Date: 7/28/2003 5:27:00 AM
From Authorid: 18527
GEORGE WASHINGTON, 1783: [End of the war, to all state governors] "I now make it my earnest prayer, that God would have you, and the State over which you preside, in his holy protection . . . that he would most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of mind, which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy nation."  |
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Date: 7/28/2003 6:21:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
TwoSpirit, you are always such an inspiration; always a Champion for Human Rights and truthfulness. *I always have to chuckle at Firstborn's pot-calling-the-kettle-black "brick wall" statement* |
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Date: 7/28/2003 6:40:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
REASON & COMMON sense needs to rule nations, instead of blind obedience to god that few can even agree on just who or what this god really is or even exists. Down through the centuries, many selfish interests have organized to promote religion and suppress any opposition to it. Christianity has fought bloody hard AGAINST all Science and progress, Free thought, Free enterprise, breakthrough's in Science, Space Exploration, and Medical research and advances/discoveries, and the Great defenders of our freedoms of speech, religion....The very people who fought hard to protect ALL from tyranny of rule by the Majority....and abolish all forms of slavery; Christianity has slandered, oppressed and did their best to squelch and suppress those who dared to question and expose the truth. The Priests, the preachers, want us all to believe what they tell us. They do not want us to inguire into the truth of their stories, lies and deceitfulness, because they FEAR investigation; FEAR disclosure and exposure. They want you to believe in order to have power over you, to control you, collect tithes, dues and contributions; and influence the minds of their ignorant, unreasoning followers. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 8:04:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
I'm amazed at some of the beliefs on the role of gov't and religion. Some believe that gov't should be the means of expressing religious beliefs. They will only believe this of course until the gov't expresses a belief opposed to theirs. *shrug* On the other hand we have people who say that those in gov't can not possess belief in anything or use God's name at a public ceremony. I think both sides really miss it. A person holding office, such as Bush or Lieberman should be allowed to say the name of their God in any ceremony. They are only expressing their faith to us. Where it becomes a problem is when that leader starts using the gov't to advance their own religious dogma. There is no problem with having a right wing pro-life judge, but there is a problem if that right wing-pro life judge starts using their office to advance their religious belief. They should be allowed to "express" their beliefs while in office or doing any duties of the office, but they should be allowed to "advance" and "impose" their beliefs. Some had a problem with GWB using in Jesus name at the inauguration address. I see nothing wrong with that. He was merely expressing his own personal faith. If he had demanded that the name of Jesus be said by all Americans, then that would be a problem. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 8:06:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
ooooops...error " but they should not be allowed to "advance" and "impose" their beliefs |
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Date: 7/28/2003 8:10:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
Kethria..great statement by George Washington. Again he was "expressing" his belief. he wasn't demanding that they be followed or using the heavy hand of gov't to advance them. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 8:18:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
Just to put some American history and our times of suffering in perspective. Before prayer was taken out of schools we had 1. The bloody wild wild west of the gold rush ages 2.Oppression of slaves 3. Civil war 4.War with the spanish 5.legalization of drinking 5. The cold war 6. World war 1 and 2 that took thousands of American lives 7.The Assassination of American presidents. After prayer taken out of schools 1. Vietnam war 2. Legalization of Abortion 3. The Cold war 4.Water Gate. 5. The attempted assasination of Regan 6.The Gulf War 7.The oppression of minorities 7.Terrorism 8.Kids getting pregnant.I think you get the point. Whether the gov't is advancing God or not advancing God, our nation has had times of extreme suffering, times where we've been brutes toward one another. This link between God being taken out of gov't and the times of suffering we now have, is a pretty weak link/coralation.*SP* The kinds of evil/suffering may have changed, but it remains a constant regardless of our gov'ts advancement or lack of advancement of religion. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 8:25:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
And some have even said God took his hand of protection off of America and that's why 9-11 happened. Keep in mind Pearl Harbor happened and that was when we had everything my fellow Christians are calling for. Now I know I may be viewed as being against my faith, but all I'm doing is stating the truth. If you're against the truth then umm you have a problem. |
Date: 7/28/2003 8:30:00 AM
From Authorid: 54111
Do Christians put their faith in God or the government. Well I put my faith in Jesus. I don't put my faith in the gov't. But Its been a tradition, well when I was in school that we said prayers in school and said the pledge of allegiance, and now its changed because people disprove of God? And it if this country wasn't founded on Christianity, why was this allowed in the first place? LOL, now that is common sense......Thinker so Christians conspire to install fear into people to deter them from finding the "truth". If that is the case why are so many laws are being passed that are a abonination against christianity. Oh I know the answer!! Because we are coming out the ways. Its that it?? LOL Yeah right  |
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Date: 7/28/2003 9:09:00 AM
From Authorid: 27950
Ok, help me out here, before I post I would like to add that in no way am I posting to injure, upset,insult anyone in any shape or form. Now for those in favor of keeping god within the pledge, would it be fair to include the many different names for god or goddess from the many other faiths? Would it be fair to have prayer in school not just within the Christian faith but the other faiths as well? And I agree that your faith should be your faith and not made to be imposed upon people who do not believe as you believe. *****KL*****  |
Date: 7/28/2003 9:30:00 AM
From Authorid: 52140
Maybe not in the government, but I definately think that some people react stupidly. So the government does allow prayer in school. We pray at the flagpole EVERY morning, rain or shine, hot or cold. there were people who tried to stop us, but we still pray. There are even teachers who pray with us. We have several religious clubs, BUT the school does not control it, it is simply a regular club. You can pray in your hearts to God, you don't have to have a designated "Pray now time".  |
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Date: 7/28/2003 9:32:00 AM
From Authorid: 52140
Jestr "r1, may i bare your children" OMG!!!!!! Do you watch Inuyasha?!?!? You reminded me of Miroku when you said that!!! |
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Date: 7/28/2003 9:35:00 AM
From Authorid: 52140
MagentaBlue, Religion should not stay at home. Depending on the religion anyway. Im not saying you have to go out and kill or beat unbelievers to your religion up. A perons beliefs go with them, reguardless if they want them to or not. In the way you live your life tells what you believe. |
Date: 7/28/2003 10:20:00 AM
From Authorid: 58030
hmm i coulda sworn i replyed to this..... *shrugs.....  |
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Date: 7/28/2003 10:54:00 AM
From Authorid: 58030
the reason that people flip out because of the word god in all those things, is because this country is supposed to have separation of church and state, I could care less, just because it says god somewhere it doesn't make my goddess and god any less real does it? no it doesn't, if i really want to i can sit down and not say the pledge or i can not use the u.s's money, but i do both of those things, because i feel strongly about my homeland, born in va, not too far from washinton and will live in this area for a long time probably, i gtg it's stormin, but i'll reply more later, this is only a segment of what i was to reply earlier, but i don't know if it got deleted or if i got disconnected or if i just messed up, i dunno, |
Date: 7/28/2003 11:52:00 AM
From Authorid: 56840
Hmm, strong arguement here. As for me, no matter what, my faith is in God. I am not going to argue techinicalities, because I believe the central issue is purely faith. If I have faith that through my actions and I'm shining God's light, I don't need the ten commandments posted on a wall. I'm living them out already. I really get tired of reading squabbling that happens.. I don't need the pledge with the word God in it to express my faith. I don't even need to say the word God. As long as I live it. Whether the gov't supports Christian principles or not, I don't think it matters. Yes, Christians would be subject to what the gov't puts forth, regardless. But what point is there to believe in something if you have no oppertunity to fight for it? And not necessarily by trying to change the gov't. But by doing what you know in your heart is just and good and right. If laws cam out about not allowing people to have their bible with them in school, why should that in any way affect Christians? Though the bible is the Word of God, it is not God. simply because we may not be allowed to do something or say something that professes our faith, does not mean we have LOST the faith. I do hope I am not mistaken about this, though these are simply my thoughts. Excellent post.  |
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Date: 7/28/2003 12:45:00 PM
From Authorid: 48689
I KNOW that, but it is in there now! Why take it out? |
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Date: 7/28/2003 1:24:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
*pats little Cow Girl on the head* BECAUSE, M'dere, it is AGAINST the Constitution!!! *sigh* |
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Date: 7/28/2003 1:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
The first permanent English colony in North America was founded at Jamestown, Virginia, in May of 1607. Two Spirits,: The first permanent English colony in North America was founded at Jamestown, Virginia, in May of 1607. Twelve years later, in 1619, a Dutch ship sailed into the harbor at Jamestown and sold twenty African slaves to the Virginia colonists. The African slaves provided a cheap and reliable source of agricultural and household labor for the emerging southern economy. North of Virginia, where there were more hills and a harsher climate, the use of human slaves was not as successful. This part of the American colonies, the North, harnessed the labor of yeoman farmers and men and women working for wages. This created one of the great sectional differences of United States history - a group of southern states which relied heavily on slave labor and a group of northern states emphasizing the work and industry of free citizens.1776 there were almost half-a-million black persons in the colonies. NOW that is almost 150 years later that they had this half million slaves, but in the beginning there were few of them, and not all the of united states dealt with having them as more than half the nation was opposed to this. Others worked for wages. In 1863 they , the slaves were freed. So for 244 years there were slaves. out of 396 years, 152 years were without slaves. So perhaps during the first ten years there were maybe a few thousand as we dont have the numbers for each year. From around 1776 until 1863 which is only 87 years difference from the time there were half a million until what ever the numbers were in 1863, that worked this land as slaves. NOW if you will look at the Census for 1860 you will see that there were over 425 million people in the united states. So even if the slaves were up to one million by that time, that is only what? 1 % of the population? So no, that old BUILT on the backs of slaves thing doesn't wash with me. AND the funny thing is, the BLACK people at that time honored God most of all. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 1:58:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
The point is two spirits, that were not trying to force anyone to have anything to do with 'God" but those that dont believe are trying to FORCE us not to have, show or talk about God. Sorry But this nation was founded on Christian beliefs, rather some of them actually believed or not, they still supported the agenda with their words and their actions. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 2:03:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Yep thinker I get such a tickle out of you and LSG, its a good *christian* that believes in taking God out of things, its a person of Inspiration that says God is not responsible for anything, LOL, your all for tolerance as LONG as its according to your agenda and your non beliefs. LOL LOL AND you still know that Im right about the seperation of church and state that it is NOT what you professed it to be or gee I think we would be getting ten or twelve URLS to go look at that support your theory. LOL YEP Good post, cause its about a christian that wants nothing to do with God and takes the side of infidels. LOL |
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Date: 7/28/2003 2:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Thinker you say, "The Priests, the preachers, want us all to believe what they tell us. They do not want us to inguire into the truth of their stories, lies and deceitfulness, because they FEAR investigation; FEAR disclosure and exposure. They want you to believe in order to have power over you, to control you, collect tithes, dues and contributions; and influence the minds of their ignorant, unreasoning followers. "" What does this say about your self, as you followed this for 40 years, what ?? It takes that long to pull out or ignorance? IF that be the case you need to let the rest of us alone until we have put in our forty years and then can get smart like you. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 2:15:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
r1, pearl harbor, LOL LOL, ONE event, oh wow, your going for the long shots now, LOL LOL and your right, IF your against the truth then ummmmmmmm YOU my friend have the problem. MOONSTORM, perhaps you too need to read about seperation of church and state, Learn it for yourself honey, what it really means as your just following a myth about it. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 2:23:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 2:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 13897
JesusFreak- perhaps you took my statement wrong. Yes i understand that a person's religion stays with them, BUT it should be taught and practiced at HOME or at CHURCH. it should not be the job of the gov't to give people religious morals. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 3:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Firstborn, please; you're just blowing smoke. ANYONE who has gotten to know me through my many posts and replies in all this time I have been on here, knows that I research and give a lot of thought to what I write. I'm very careful to check out sources; and research the reliability and credibility of the material I cite and or recommend. I also will just say (Again) that you are wrong with your assertions with regard to my personal life, and I ask you please not to bring them up again. Please? Thank you. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 3:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
I'm sorry Deb, but when I WAS a christian, I rarely ever even heard anyone criticise Christianity. I never even gave it any thought; for I just accepted in my mind; I THOUGHT everyone believed in God. So there was no confrontation, no conflict; thus, no need for anything of a debate or "name calling" nature. No one ever questioned me either. I DO recall that every time I even heard the word "atheist" I would shudder, and cringe and say the kinds of things that I had been taught or heard. I know now that I didn't have one tiny clue as to what it meant and basically didn't care. I am not proud of all those years spent in abject ignorance; and I wish it could have been different; I think of what life might have turned out to be, had I been armed with all the knowledge that I have now; plus all that is STILL available to learn. I might have become a leader in Goverment; a great teacher; and or writer, or even a scientist doing research in the medical field.... *sigh* Ah, but I'm just happy that I did learn the truth, even if it had to happen at 50. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 4:20:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Ok, no more family things thinker, I'm glad you were not hatefull to non christians. I guess growing up around christians it would be hard to believe that ALL were not christians. Just as your happy in your truth, I"m happy in my truth. I dont expect you to change your thinking and you should not expect me to change my thinking as God makes me happy. Just as NO God makes you happy. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 4:20:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
"Yep thinker I get such a tickle out of you and LSG"<----???? My only comment "R1-this is without question, one of the finest debates I have ever read on USM about Religion. Your points are so clearheaded, and healthy....I am deeply impressed. " Debbie-you are coming across as hateful & spitful. First of all, how dare you bring up my name into your rant? Have I become some an obesession for you, that I instantly represent all that you hate? Must fight against? Let me tell you what has my panties in a bunch, who are YOU to call R1 an "infidel" ??? NEWS FLASH & REALITY CHECK-you have really been pushing the boundries of USM's guidelines for acceptable behavior, there is NOT a "satanic"-plot to take over USM, you are showing the worst intolerance for other Christian's who believe differently than you do. YOU do NOT even belong to a church, by your own admission, ~Thinker~ & I both spent the majority of our lives IN the Christian faith, you CANNOT speak for the mind of God, You CANNOT know another's heart & you have NO buisness telling someone who believes differently than you do, they are an "infidel". SHAME ON YOU! "Judge Not...Lest Ye Be Judged", and don't try that "I am not perfect, just saved" crap, THAT is a cop-out. Now, stop turning DEBATE into personal attacks. Debate the topic..if you cannot debate with an intelligent answer, than conceed & LEAVE the discussion. Jesus, talk about banging your head on the wall.....*exasperated* |
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Date: 7/28/2003 4:43:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
FB, you asked Thinker to prove there is no God. Put the shoe on the other foot. Prove there is a God. Solid, evident proof. It cannot be done. That is why it is called faith. As for the number of slaves in 1860, if I can find the research I did about 12 years ago, I will tell you how many there were in each state. In the southern states, many had more slaves than they did free men. This country did not prosper because of God. It prospered because of the men who built it, and yes, slaves did help to build much of this nation. I lived the Christian life for many years, doing all that the church and the Bible said I was supposed to do. One day though, I began to see the lies. I do believe there is a higher power. I also believe that many of the religions in this world are wrong. Religion is nothing more than organized thought. Take away the organization, and most are lost. Find true spiritualism though, and you quickly see the lies that religion forces on people. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 4:45:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
thank you-Two Spirits. .... |
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Date: 7/28/2003 4:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 58030
first born honey, im sorry but you ARE toeing the line quite badly.., you say i need to "study" separation of church and state, maybe you too should take your own advice, my udnerstanding of separation of church and state is that the government IS separate of religion, religion stays in the church or at home, the united states is full of people of different beliefs, be it christian, wiccan, islam, buddist, hindu, shamanism, stanic, whatever, but the U.S. government is NOT any of those things, it is the governing body of this country, the people who make up the U.S. government may be all of the above or they may be none, they may worship the great big pink unicorn, BUT THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT TO ENDORSE ONE PARTICULAR RELIGION, Somewhere around here there is a posting about how one court or town council or something had a clergymen/women, open they're meetings with a prayer or whatnot, well i believe someone brought it to light that this government organization was turning down her offers, because she was of a different religion, does an opening prayer of ANY sort belong there? NO it does NOT, but that's another battle, will i be fighting it NO because i really could care less if i have to say a word in the morning or see it when i buy my tarot cards or candles, but first born i would appreciate you respecting my right to follow a myth if i wanted to even though i am not, i DID study U.S. civics last year, and separation of church and state DID take up two-three whole classes of history, so don't doubt my intelligence, no hard feelings, |
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Date: 7/28/2003 5:10:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
A Note on the Religious Affiliations of Some American Founders. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Daniel of St. Thomas Jennifer - Episcopalianism can be inferred from his prominence in the Propietary Government before the Revolution, when he served as Lord Baltimore's fiscal agent. William Blount - was brought up an Episcopalian, but died a Presbyterian; however, he probably did not make the change before 1790, when he moved to Transappalachian country, where the Episcopal church was slow to penetrate. Richard Dobbs Spaight - His funeral oration was delivered by "his rector and long life friend," the Rev. Thomas Pitt Irving of New Bern, accordind to John H Wheeler's "Sketch of the Life of R.D. Spaight" (Baltimore, W. K. Boyle, 1880, p. 21). Jonathon Dayton - originally a Presbyterian, eventually became an Episcopalian, but Edwin F. Hatfield's "History of Elizabeth, N.J. (N.Y., Carleton and Lanahan, 1868) contains some evidence that he was still active as a Presbyterian layman as late as 1789. James Wilson - was born in Scotland, and originally destined for Kirk. After coming to Pennsylvania most of his associations were Episcopalian, but his lates biographer, Charles Page Smith, says that he never abandoned the forms and doctrines of his parent's church. Hugh Williamson - began his career as a Presbyterian clergyman. He soon abandoned the ministry, but nothing indicates he left the church. Abraham Baldwin - A native of Connecticut, is usually taken to be a Congregationalist. But there were as yet no Congregationalist churches outside of New England, and emigrating Congregationalists usually joined the Presbyterian churches. George Clymer - Was buried in a Quaker churchyard, and other Philadelphia Clymers are known to be Quakers. Gouverneur Morris - Associated himself with no church group during his lifetime. He is buried in an Episcopal churchyard because his devout son, the second Gouverneur, gave both land and building for St. Anne's, The Bronx, New York. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 5:40:00 PM
From Authorid: 54111
LOL@this entire post. Let me go on by saying this. Personal attacks have not stemmed just from one side. I have been subject to them. Sometimes memory gets blurry on that one. I spent my entire life in the christian faith.....And a christian doesn't need the government or church to get to heaven. A preacher is someone who studies the bible and teaches it to his congregation. Who is to say someone can't read and study the bible and become a teacher\preacher to themself or their family, much like the preacher do? You don't need to be certified for that. I do go to church but its up to me to interpret God's meaning, sometimes I agree with a preacher sometimes I don't. Its the same with the government. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 5:52:00 PM
From Authorid: 54111
R1 in answer to your question. No it doesn't have a impact on our faith or God's place in our life if they take away prayer in school. As a christian we always pray. Remember that there are a LOT of churches in this country Meaning a lot of christians in America. Do you think we as Christians, are not going to go down w/o fighting a decision especially when it comes to God? But I do understand what you are saying. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 6:40:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
BigDaddi, there may be a lot of churches in America. A church though does not make a Christian. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 7:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
As I said once before-"Going to church does NOT make a person a Christian, anymore than parking in a garage makes a person a car." It is too sad, how people will be defended because they "claim" to be of the same faith. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 7:34:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
BigDaddi-how do you feel about R1 being called an "infidel"? After all, that's what the Paricees called Jesus, remember? And weren't they WAY wrong? |
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Date: 7/28/2003 8:29:00 PM
From Authorid: 54111
Two Spirits that is very true just because you go to church doesn't make you a christian. I understand what he is trying to prove but as FB said non-believers want us Christians to stop doing "Forcing their belief" so we are to stop saying the pledge of allegiance because "one nation under God" You forget that you want rights but Christians are not allowed to have the rights either? |
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Date: 7/28/2003 8:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 54111
LSG, another smart comment, I could have said something smart back but will hold on that. And How do I feel about Firstborn calling R1 a infidel. Remember this O know there have been times, here in debate, when despite myself, I get so emotional & unhappy with the PERSON asking the question (not the question itself), that I reply with anger on the Willing to Burn post. Sometimes I feel the same exact way. But somehow that same concern is not shared with a Christian. So on that post I could have threw the same line you threw at me. It is sad. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 9:22:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
All I can say is YOU shall see...... All the non-believers out there that feel their poor little rights are being infringed upon by the presence of the name God, will unfortunately get their way. We Christians will be left with few if any rights at all. R1 you say you want to suffer and be persecuted for your beliefs.... don't worry, it's coming honey. It amazes me that this is even a debate. What's the debate? It's not a debate, it's just a pure outrage that any Christian would promote and be accepting toward the removal of God from society. As for the non-believers patting you on the back....it may feel good now but it won't some day when you can't worship unless your doing it in some dark cellar underground. FB and Big Daddi obviously get the "big picture" and know what's going on here. It's very obvious to most people that those that desire the removal of God are the ones who are overreacting and pushing their beliefs onto others. Anyone who has a problems with seeing the name of God some where is the one with panic and the one trying to infringe upon the rights of believers. It's funny how this massive case of reverse psychology works in our society. In this day and age, what's wrong is right and what's bad is good. Everything is turned around. Those trying to simply keep the rights they currently have are the ones losing their rights. All I know is that I will do as I please as long as I please. If I want to say or write "God bless" every where to everyone, I will. If I want to pray in a public place and it causes an outrage, I couldn't care less. If my child feel the need to say a prayer while in school and is punished, I'll be there the next day to punish the punisher. I will not be a "silent and accepting of what ever you want" Christian. I don't think that is the answer. No, I don't want everyone to have to pray when I do, I don't feel others should be forced to believe as I do, but I sure as heck won't sit back and let them take these things away from me. I'll go down fighting. Christians are supposed to support God and all that he is and by supporting the removal of him, your saying that he's representing something bad. How can that ever be? I've heard a ridiculous argument from someone that what if our money said Satan instead of "In God We Trust" and how would I like that? I said, please how can you even try to use that as a rational argument. Satan should be offensive to anyone with brain cells since he is evil and everything bad. Everyone should be against having that written anywhere. God on the other hand, shouldn't be offensive to anyone since God represents and is everything pure and good in existance. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 9:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
Big Daddi, I took and oath over 20 years ago to defend the Constitution of this land. In taking that oath, I also agreed to defend the rights of ALL people. What many do not understand about rights, is that we are each free to exercise those rights, as long as we do not abuse the rights of others. Today, our government is taking away more of our rights than any single group of people will ever take away. People do not see it though, because they are too busy arguing with each other about rights. If a person wishes to stop and pray, so be it. Have enough courtesy though to do it in a manner that it does not distract others. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 9:30:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Two Spirits, that just it, she keeps saying she has proof there IS not God, so I think she should put up or shut up. Sorry God is not just faith, HE is a real enity. I didnt say slaves didn't help build the nation, but not in the grandure that you were proclaiming. To you they are lies. Makes me wonder what gets into a person head to suddenly feel that God is nothing but a lie. I'm sorry but I feel for you. Moonstorm, can you prove its not a myth? I mean I say God is not a myth and you people think he is, and NOW you say because I believe your following a myth, but because YOU believe it its not a myth. OH and On the first admendment rights, yes your still wrong. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 9:36:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
LOL. "I will go down fighting" Those famous last words. Most here do not even know what it is to fight for your rights. The rights that you have were given to you by the blood of those who were brave enough to fight. They were defended by people like myself who were not afraid to die. Religion, and I mean all religion, is man made. It is not inspired by and god, but only by the imagination of man. I do believe there is a supreme being, but I do not believe it is the one spoken of in the varous books on religion. There is one fact that does bother me though. That is the fact the many Christians today are starting to sound just like the Moslems they despise. I did a post long ago on the last great Crusade. I stated plain and simple, that it would be christianity that would initiate this crusade. Well, it appears the crusade has begun. I just hope the christians are happy when they realize it is them that caused the end of man's reign on this Earth. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 9:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Firstborn stands up and applaudes YOUCHOOSE!! Very well said my dear, very well said!!! |
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Date: 7/28/2003 9:41:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
Two Spirits, they are circling the wagons now...goodnight all. LOL.... |
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Date: 7/28/2003 9:41:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
Deb, do not feel for me. The story of the Bible, as well as those of other religions, were made up by man after the Ice Age. The meteor strike that pormpted our Ice Age destoyed most all that was on the Earth. Of those that did survive, many turned to some sort of religion to try and seek comfort. From those early beginnings, we have the morass that we know today. No, do not feel for me, as it is I who should feel for you. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 9:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
yes, there are many Christians today, who sound like the Musilms they claim to despise. They cannot see it, either. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 9:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
LSG, they can circle the wagons all they want. Just as the settlers of old who circled the wagons, it is done out of fear. I do not stand in fear though, for I have seen a truth which they do not understand. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 9:46:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
this has been interesting, but I have to go....LOL. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 10:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 16849
I know not why man must say something at the expense of another, for he is only ruining his own name.... As a mere bystander in this, I must say, harsh words have been tossed around and I am very disappointed in some people today. Firstborn, the more I read your replies, the more my respect for you lessens. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 10:09:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
Deb, I can support what I have written, and have done so in the past on these boards. No, I am not biased towards religion. As far as I'm concerned, anyone can believe whatever they wish. Just don;t force it on those who do not wish to believe the same as you. You talk of personal attacks, yet tonight, I have seen you very close on the line, if not actually over it. Maybe you should get a good nights sleep, since much of what I have read tonight is not the FB that I once knew. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 10:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
"Yep thinker I get such a tickle out of you and LSG"<----???? My only comment "R1-this is without question, one of the finest debates I have ever read on USM about Religion. Your points are so clearheaded, and healthy....I am deeply impressed. " I repeat, until I came back tonight, this was my only contribution to this post. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 10:22:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
My bias is not against Christianity, it is against those who USE "God" to excuse racism, hatred, lies, and slander against others. Yes, their has been bad behavior here tonight. But in the morning light, it will be ovious to everyone, what happened. If posting questions aboput doctrine is going to cause such...malice, maybe I need to remember, not everyone is as free to question, as I am....and I can laugh at myself. Now, I am taking my flying Monkeys & going to bed. <--see? a joke guys..... |
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Date: 7/28/2003 10:29:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
"Have enough courtesy to pray in a manner that doesn't distract others"? Okay...in other words, make sure you only pray in some secluded area where no one can hear or see you!!! Is that better? That statement totally proves the one I made above about how Christians rights will be removed because of non-believers wishes for our rights to disappear. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 10:34:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Wow....my statement of "I'll go down fighting for my religious rights" was criticized by someone who has stated that they will fight for theirs and then say that WE don't know what fighting for our rights is about??? Don't cha think that's a bit hypocritical. I mean really.... your ancestors fought for their rights but none of ours did? Who are you to assume to know that... OH, PLEASE! |
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Date: 7/28/2003 10:38:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
LSG....I don't know any true Christians that despise any muslims, especially on this post. |
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Date: 7/28/2003 10:40:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
LOL..."I do not stand in fear though, for I have seen a truth which they do not understand." You understand YOUR truth... you only THINK that it is the real truth. Don't ASSUME to know that YOUR truth should be anyone else's otherwise you are pushing your belief onto those that you claim are pushing them onto you. |
Date: 7/29/2003 12:31:00 AM
From Authorid: 37900
R1, I believe your opinion about many Christians equating America with the kingdom of God is correct. Many early Christians had the same idea about the city of Rome. When barbarians sacked it, many had a crisis of faith because they couldn't understand how God could allow such a thing to happen. I think I understand some of the issues here. It is certainly easier for Christians to express their faith when the government is neutral or friendly toward the ideology; naturally, they would desire a cooperative situation. Those who disagree are correctly persuaded that every American has the right to believe as he or she wishes, even if beliefs are contrary to traditional ideas, without preference shown by the government. My faith will not be destroyed if "under God" is removed from the Pledge of Allegiance; my faith will not be shaken if "In God We Trust" is removed from our currency. However, I see these efforts as part of a national trend away from a God consciousness that seemed evident earlier in our history. Some are convinced this means we finally casting aside the shackles of religious oppression forged over the past several centuries: I'm not. Good post, R1.  |
Date: 7/29/2003 12:57:00 AM
From Authorid: 27046
I believe the comments like "we will be oppressed", "we will be praying in underground tunnels" and those of the like are the exact reason why the consensus sees this as "flipping out". It would seem to me that Muslims, Wiccans, Pagans, and every single other religion that is not Christian seem to thrive just fine and dandy and are even able to maintain and hold onto their beliefs and moral values without being forced into the basement to do so and without having to have it plastered ALL OVER EVERYTHING either. That is becoming a little overly pathetic about the situation. Also for the record you do not have to swear on the Bible or so help me God in a court of a law. By law and in regards to our consitituation it cannot be forced and is not forced in order to be a credible witness in a court of law. Marlon Brando, live on court Tv during his sons trial, refused to swear on the Bible or end his oath with so help me God.  |
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Date: 7/29/2003 1:08:00 AM
From Authorid: 34487
I think it's funny how people here try and quote me without directing things to me in their message. Personally, I wish they could stick to the real issue instead of always trying to side-track to make themselves look good. |
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Date: 7/29/2003 1:46:00 AM
From Authorid: 34487
This isn't a debate it's one of those.... I'm right and you're wrong posts and let's gang up on the minority. So I must say so long and farewell. Have a great night everyone. |
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Date: 7/29/2003 2:23:00 AM
From Authorid: 27046
That's funny You Choose, I don't remember directingly speaking to you at all on this post. I believe I made a comment directly to one person and that would be Cat. So you look no more or less the true culprit than I, quoting you in your own form of English of course "When a person points out throws nasty remarks and insinuations out like that it only makes them look like the true culprit." I give you 5 points for the attempt, but seriously I think mine rated at about a 7...LOL..:P~ |
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Date: 7/29/2003 4:20:00 AM
From Authorid: 34814
Well I have to admit I'm glad I saw the lies when I was about 3 and was able to tell my parents to go to church and leave me alone pretty early and didn't waste my time like many others here who didn't know. Good post and even better as it goes on. |
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Date: 7/29/2003 4:48:00 AM
From Authorid: 47296
You Choose, you changed the topic so live with it. As for fighting for rights, I was not talking about my ancestors, I was talking about all the veterans in this country that have fought for your rights, as well as evryone else's rights. Now, I will ask you directly, "Did not Christ state that prayer should be a private matter between man and his God"? Yet you do not wish to follow the Bible, only those parts that suit your end game. You tell me my truth is not the real truth. How do you know? You do not know me, nor do you know the things I have learned in my life. Every time you come into a debate, you wish to make it a personal battle, yet you get mad when someone addresses a remark you made. Well, I am going to address your "Chicken Little, the sky is falling" remarks. Revelations is a self fulfilling prophecy. Why, because those who believe it are making it such. Look around you at the real events that happen every day around the world. Man himself, in the name of religion, is making Revelations happen, because he believes it is supposed to happen. Some day people will reliaze that we all control our own destinies. They are not predetermined in some book. When people do realize that truth, then maybe they will be willing to do something to change destiny so that we can all live together in peace. |
| Date: 7/29/2003 4:53:00 AM ( Lin-Admin ) This is the Topic of this Debate "Do American Christians put their faith in God or in the gov't?--"...Please keep Personal Attacks and Insults to yourselves and address the Topic at hand...In the Famous Words of the Creator of USM "Have a Clean Debate Or Have A Clean Exit"...I Remain In Spirit, |
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Date: 7/29/2003 7:31:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
Pyro, that just breaks my heart, NOT. Besides pyro if people that dont believe in God hate me, for speaking the truth and trying to speak back when personally attacked, so be it, just means I'm doing something right. Gee, LSG must love what I write as she quotes me often enough. LOL AZ of course all false religion thrive and I pray they enjoy it while it last. YEP christians may be forced under ground simply because the god of this earth does NOT want anyone to know the truth about the end or of the Lord Jesus. Thats fine. We know the end and I'm just sorry so many are so blind to it. AND if marlon brando refused to have anything to do with God during the court session or anytime in his life, its HIS loss. Poor thing. |
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Date: 7/29/2003 7:48:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
TWo Spirits, when praying sometimes we do it by ourselves, But God has told us many time to be in unity and in prayer. Acts:44: And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:Acts:1:14: These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication.Acts:4:31: And when they had prayed* THEY prayed.2Cor:1:11: Ye also helping together by prayer for us, *they prayed together*Is:45:18: For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else. Is:45:19: I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the Lord speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. Is:45 0: Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. ""Perhaps if so many things had not already come true, and NO, I'm not going into them all there are many posts on usm about this, read it, but the Bible has things that have come to pass, and so shall the book of revelations. But as this post has got off the whole subject, I will DECLARE RIGHT NOW THAT I PLACE MY FAITH IN GOD, Enjoy the rest of the post people I think all that can be said, has been said. |
Date: 7/29/2003 7:59:00 AM
From Authorid: 12835
Nothing like a cup of coffee and the comic section to make my morning....  |
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Date: 7/29/2003 8:41:00 AM
From Authorid: 58030
lol st. pete, just wish this was still the debate it was in the beggining..... but I REFUSE to watch these malacious insults and attacks, If i wanted to see all this i think Jerry Springer is on somewhere, so this'll probably be the last you hear of me on this post any way |
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Date: 7/29/2003 8:42:00 AM
From Authorid: 58030
i say probably so.... i have the curiosity of a dead cat... |
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Date: 7/29/2003 8:45:00 AM
From Authorid: 12835
Moon, you didn't last long...LOL |
Date: 7/29/2003 8:47:00 AM
From Authorid: 10915
My faith is in God. I only respect this and any other government because God made it clear that we are to give to Caesar what's his because they stand in relative position to God's sovereignty.  |
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Date: 7/29/2003 8:58:00 AM
From Authorid: 10915
This is a wonderful post R1 and one that I whole-heartedly agree. |
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Date: 7/29/2003 9:12:00 AM
From Authorid: 34487
LOL.... this is so funny. It's amazing how they turn the tables to make me look like the instigator. Believe it or not, I don't enjoy fighting with people but unfortunately too many others do. I guess I'm supposed to sit back and let you quote my words and twist them. HMMM... that's really a debate? NOT. That's called the attack and don't look back syndrome. Anyway, my comments from the beginning were all addressed to R1 regarding the topic at hand and that is what it will be from this point on. I won't bother with replying to inudendo and silly words that sound like nursery rhymes. |
Date: 7/29/2003 9:18:00 AM
From Authorid: 34487
FB.... we're not supposed to have an opinion on this issue, even though it's about and mainly for Christians...LOL!  I agree with what you've said here dear, whole heartedly! |
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Date: 7/29/2003 9:19:00 AM
From Authorid: 10915
LOL@St. Pete. What did you expect from USM? Something serious? LOL!!!! |
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Date: 7/29/2003 9:57:00 AM
From Authorid: 12835
Nope Girlie....and how come whenever there is controversie there is Girlie!!!LOL What amazes me is how unGodly people become when discussing God...To thine own Self Be True, and who cares what the rest of the world thinks.... |
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Date: 7/29/2003 11:08:00 AM
From Authorid: 10915
Nah Ah! Ain't so. LOL. I agree with you Pete. It amazes me too how people who claim to be christian get so out of hand not only with unbelievers, but even with believers. Let's call every debate post on here what it really is: "If it doesn't agree with me, then it is not true." |
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Date: 7/29/2003 11:15:00 AM
From Authorid: 10915
Actually, if I don't agree with it, then it is not true. LOL. I need to think before I type sometimes. |
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Date: 7/29/2003 11:19:00 AM
From Authorid: 15070
*R1*, if you call people "Meany", I am NEVER going to let my Flying Monkey's back into debate! Such rough language is simply NOT acceptable! *Geeze...some people say "Witch" like it's a BAD thing.* (St. Pete, pass me a Danish to go with that coffee, will ya?) |
Date: 7/29/2003 12:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 62095
I dont worry about the government, I put all my faith in God. I leave it in His hands. He has planned all of this and knows what will happen, he will only let it go so far before he steps in and takes over.  |
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Date: 7/29/2003 1:40:00 PM
From Authorid: 34814
Pass me a latte and a sweet bun. LMAO I am in on this morning thing even though I am late. Any left? |
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Date: 7/29/2003 2:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
???Hmmm, interesting and strange... and on that note I say goodbye and have a nice nite all. |
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Date: 7/29/2003 3:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
By the way that was in reply to R1's last comment, just wanted to clarify. |
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Date: 7/29/2003 4:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
As I stated in the beginning, I do not put faith in either the government or the church, for both will do all within their power to abuse the rights of others. I put my faith in those things I know to be true, and also in myself. |
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Date: 7/30/2003 8:32:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
You choose, yep your right and it will never cease to amaze me when those that claim to know God, align themselves against him. Oh well, I'm out of here now too as there is nothing left to say. Oh and by the way *ungodly* is NOT standing up for the word of God, even Jesus called them vipers and snakes. |
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Date: 7/30/2003 10:34:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
Saying gov't shouldn't force God down people's throats is now a form of standing against God? Wow! I'm in awe. I'm in shock! Ok so lets get this straight here. If I don't think the government should be allowed to make religious statements for me, and if I don't believe the gov't should be allowed to proclaim itself as being a certain religion, then I am opposed to God? Interesting! Interesting indeed. Yes way indeed. So if I want to be on God's side, then I should demand that our gov't advance God on all people? Dang. That's a tough one. |
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Date: 7/30/2003 10:42:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
hehehe...yep, R1, ye ole "you're not with us, you're against us" regurgitation, eh? Makes you kinda wonder just who really is the "vipers and snakes". *howls* |
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Date: 7/30/2003 10:54:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
Thinker I guess. I mean wow...Like if muslims were the majority in this country, then like..umm...they could say in Allah we trust. And basically I couldn't oppose that, because I'd be going against God. Or something. I don't know. Amazes me how we reach conclusions on something. I'll type it again. Maybe it will make more sense. I oppose the gov't advancing religion and stating religious beliefs for me, therefore I am against God. *shrug* |
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Date: 7/30/2003 2:22:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
I can think of at least two people thinker. Yes, r1 your either for God and HIs will and HIS plan or your against Him and you know fully well I'm not talking about forcing anything, YOU know full well I'm talking about taking away what we already have so please trying to act stupid when I've stated my comment on this subject to you many times. |
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Date: 7/30/2003 2:28:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
You know what, Firstborn, Keep on going in the same way you are presenting yourself, and you most certainly will DE-CONVERT; you will drive away anyone from your faith; I guarantee it. Take a look in your mirrow, and ask yourself just what kind of person YOU are REALLY projecting. |
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Date: 7/30/2003 2:30:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
hmmm and what about what I've said is against His will?*shrug* |
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Date: 7/30/2003 2:32:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
I know God is about building his Church, but is he all about building America? What makes America so special? |
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Date: 7/30/2003 3:51:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Oh because I dont cow down to your smart remarks, then I'm a bad christian? Nope dont think so. AND hon, I've got a big list of people that have come to the Lord here on usm BECAUSE of me fighting for the right of God to be included in this united states as well as all the other garbage that is here. I find it funny that while you dont believe in God thinker, you do NOT rally against any other religion that believes in God, JUST Christianity. But ya know for as many as you think I will de-convert, you actually help convert because of your remarks, you have actually strengthened many of the chrisitians here because they have had to do more study to prove your theories wrong and I think they have did that most successfully. Thanks thinker, your a Godsend to Christianity. |
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Date: 7/30/2003 3:54:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
R1, you said "in a way i do support removing all the references to God" NOW yes you said God in government. BUT taking the ten commandments off walls or removing monuments should not be a government issue in the first place as like I said, by them removing these things, THEY are are going against their own first admendment right for not allowing us freedom of our religion. So by you going against God when he says, Dt:6: And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates."" ANd you are against our freedom to do this, then yes hon, your going against God and HIS will. |
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Date: 7/30/2003 4:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Actually, I think FB projects a very nice image but when she stands up for what she believes.... all of the sudden she's deconverting? I don't think so and I know many others don't also. |
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Date: 7/30/2003 5:34:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
firstborn I have to ask..do you have God's scriptures written on the posts of your actual house and on any actual gates on your house? |
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Date: 7/30/2003 5:37:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
Firstborn it also says in Deut 8 You should bind them on your hands....do you have these things written on your hands? Notice this was written to individuals to do to their own homes and to their own selves...*shrug* |
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Date: 7/30/2003 7:02:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
FB, are you a Jew fleeing from Egypt? Deuteronomy contains the law given to those involved in the exodus that they had to follow before they could cross over to the promised land. |
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Date: 7/30/2003 7:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 58030
oh my lord, these posts are gettin ridiculous, i've been sitting in the background, FB how in the HECK can you sit there and claim that you KNOW your god's will? did he SPEAK to you, how do you KNOW that it ISN'T his will for america to not have those things on they're money or on they're walls? How do you know he isn't one of those people protesting, in a human form? the answer is YOU DON'T, |
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Date: 7/30/2003 7:52:00 PM
From Authorid: 58030
and you choose i STILL haven't figured out where someone has twisted your words, unless your bringing other POSTS into this? what are you talking about? |
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Date: 7/30/2003 7:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Moon Storm what ARE you talking about? Either you're confusing me with someone else or seeing things. Please don't try to start an argument with me, I don't have time for it. |
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Date: 7/30/2003 7:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
You neglected to state what part of the conversation you're referring to with regard to me...it made no sense. |
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Date: 7/30/2003 8:45:00 PM
From Authorid: 58030
the thing where you said "LOL.... this is so funny. It's amazing how they turn the tables to make me look like the instigator. Believe it or not, I don't enjoy fighting with people but unfortunately too many others do. I guess I'm supposed to sit back and let you quote my words and twist them. HMMM... that's really a debate? NOT. That's called the attack and don't look back syndrome. Anyway, my comments from the beginning were all addressed to R1 regarding the topic at hand and that is what it will be from this point on. I won't bother with replying to inudendo and silly words that sound like nursery rhymes." i'm really not sure what you mean by where that is and like i said i'm way too curious, i read a thing that said "why isn't gullible in the dictionary" and almost had to look it up... |
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Date: 7/30/2003 8:52:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
MoonStorm, if you haven't noticed, I reply to people's comments to me and they're not always the nicest. Many comments have been deleted from this post so you don't know why I was saying what I say. Please try and remember that and don't attack me in the future please. Thanks |
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Date: 7/30/2003 8:54:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
typos...^^^^ What I meant was I was replying to other people's comments to me and their comments weren't the nicest either. Many comments I replied to or about are no longer here so that may tell you something. |
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Date: 7/30/2003 8:58:00 PM
From Authorid: 58030
i mean i'm sorry if that's what you took it as but.... |
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Date: 7/30/2003 8:58:00 PM
From Authorid: 58030
I DIDN'T attack you i asked you what you were talking about.... and i've been here from the begining pretty much cus i like ts's debate style and stuff, i read this debate when there were only about 5 replys to it.. and i've kept up since then... |
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Date: 7/30/2003 9:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 58030
does this tell ya something it's way too late for me, i thought ts made this debate instead of the other one good sweet goddess, i need sleep.. |
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Date: 7/30/2003 9:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Thanks for the apology but you did single me out, that isn't a fair perspective. Many are guilty of the same here and like I said tons of comments are gone and I'm sure you don't remember every single one word for word. It's water under the bridge to me now anyway. |
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Date: 7/30/2003 9:03:00 PM
From Authorid: 58030
no it's cus ur comments are stickin out lately, and there are a lot of em that are the same.... |
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Date: 7/30/2003 9:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
MoonStorm, I think my comments are sticking out because I've only just recently gotten into a few debates. And yes, you did single me out here and very unfairly I might say. I guess once you're here a bit longer you'll understand that I don't go around trying to fight with people but I DO defend myself and there's nothing wrong with that. |
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Date: 7/30/2003 9:12:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
No hard feeling though, Have a good night. |
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Date: 7/30/2003 9:41:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
****Two Spirits****, same thing,because I'm part of the body of Christ and Jesus was a jew, and as for flee egypt, I flee it everyday, from the words of the non believers here at usm and those of the world. AND YES I too will enter the promised land. The bible was written for an example to us. However if you all choose to not go by anything the old testament says, thats good and fine. God tells us even today to go into all the world and preach his gospel,Mt:10 : And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand." Mt:107: What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.*oh could that mean to the public?Mt4:14: And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations |
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Date: 7/30/2003 9:41:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
r1, Yes, I have a leg bracelet with a cross on it, I have my Bible right by the door, I have stickers on my truck and my puter and other things that say I"M A CHILD OF GOD, and if I liked needles I would get a nice tatoo saying, JESUS IS LORD across my hand. I often find that someone that feels condemned for their actions their ways, will always try to make the other person look bad, hon, what has the lord been convicting you of lately? But you dont have to answer that, as that is between YOU and the LORD. |
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Date: 7/30/2003 9:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
MoonStorm, yes he speaks to me and HE has spoken to the whole world, just some of you are not listening. You know not as you are none of his. Just because your goddess doesnt talk to you does NOT mean that My God does not talk to me. God said,1Cor :12: Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.1Cor :13: Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; 1Cor:14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.1Cor :15: But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.1Cor :16: For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.""IN short, God talks to his people today just as HE has always did. AND if you need me to explain the rest of the scriputre to you, feel free to ask. Now I too am going to bed. |
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Date: 7/30/2003 9:50:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
fb..umm you need to actually have them written on your door posts and on your hands. This bible by the door and ankle bracelet thing isn't doing it sister...... |
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Date: 7/30/2003 10:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
Our Founders' clearly created a secular government that was carefully separated from religion. We can probe and dissect to our heart's content, but you will never find Christ or Christianity referred to in our founding documents. It is because of those documents that Christians are free to worship as they please, a priceless freedom enjoyed in precious few countries throughout history. We should be grateful for that freedom and stop trying to force our beliefs, on others. We the People are truly a diverse group, and this has always been one of our greatest strengths. We never were, were never intended to be, and hopefully never will be, a ONE nation, we are many. Many nationalities, many cultures, many races, many beliefs, and we are all human beings with thoughts and common sense in this year 2003. |
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Date: 7/30/2003 10:12:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 47162
shadow well said. |
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Date: 7/30/2003 10:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
Our religiously fanatical remote ancestors had only the most primitive weapons at their disposal. Today, as people strive to kill each other in the name of religion, they have plastic explosives, nerve gas and…nuclear weapons. It must end. If there is God,why would anyone in his right mind think that killing people is a way to serve him?! When will our power of reason catch up to our testosterone levels? Peace on Earth? I would love to know WHY this cannot happen. |
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Date: 7/30/2003 11:23:00 PM
From Authorid: 62095
in biblical times it is often spoke that thos who were under a nations rule were to follow that nations rules and laws, for God had placed them in that nation, under those laws, and allowed those in charge to take throne, nothing has changed since then we are still to "give ceaser what is ceasers" but in no way are we told to put our faith in that governing nation. are faith rests in our hearts as christians, not in our country. In God we trust may be the slogan on our currency, but that doesnt mean god trusts our country |
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Date: 7/31/2003 8:12:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
r1 I did answer you and two spirits I did answer you and no the comments were not worthy of deletion, but apparently they got deleted. And moonstorm, YES as I said in my rely to you, I do hear from God just as anyone that is a child of God can do. |
Date: 7/31/2003 5:51:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
o.k.....I am seeing a bit of unfairness in the comments that are disappearing & the ones that remain. And, I am NOT talking about MY comments. R1 had some good ones, that are gone here.... |
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