Date: 6/29/2003 8:27:00 PM
From Authorid: 38095
How's this? Let them find their own way. It may seem hard for you (and them, at first), but it'll work out better in the end. They don't HAVE to believe the same way you do, ya know.  |
Date: 6/29/2003 8:30:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12341
It isn't about "finding their way". Should a four year old think or be taught he will burn in fire if he's naughty?  |
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Date: 6/29/2003 8:32:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12341
And no they don't have to believe what I believe, but NEITHER shouyld they believe what others believe. Can that belief be supported without instilling fear and terror? |
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Date: 6/29/2003 8:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 38095
Well, personally I've always believed in an "age of accountability". For me, the cap's always been around 8 or 9, when they're able to really tell right from wrong. Religion isn't really the question; tolerance and understanding (on the other child and her family's part)... |
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Date: 6/29/2003 8:34:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12341
Should their religion or belief be more believable? And why? |
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Date: 6/29/2003 8:36:00 PM
From Authorid: 38095
Most, if not all religions have their fanatics. Just make your grandkids understand that point, and tell them to ignore the nuts. (I know the feeling, having been sniped at all my life for my beliefs...) |
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Date: 6/29/2003 8:40:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12341
I'm taking your answers very seriously, so tell me, and I'm being very open, how do I do this with a child who is almost six and one who will only be four tomorrow. They are a huge part of my live, they learn from me. They have never known terror or fear before. I am very protective of them. Perhaps to a fault. |
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Date: 6/29/2003 8:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 38095
Mainly through love, understanding, and a VERY strong will. Try talking to the other child's parents, as well. It may turn ugly, so be prepared. I hope you do find some way to resolve this. |
Date: 6/29/2003 8:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 20750
This is just my opinion! Just let them find their way! Kids are very smart! They will ask you questions when the time comes. Answer honestly as you believe! Yet it is up to them to form a religious opinion when they need it! I hope this made sense!  |
Date: 6/29/2003 8:50:00 PM
From Authorid: 15228
That is a tough one. I think all you can do is talk to the child's parents. Tell them that it really upset your Grandson to be told he is going to the fire. Don't get into a religous discussion..Don't even make it about religion. Treat it like anything else you would have a concern over...like hitting or bad words. They will probably be embarrassed. If they aren't embarrassed, than they are probably a little bit nutty.  |
Date: 6/29/2003 8:50:00 PM
From Authorid: 57830
oh that is terrible! Poor guy!  like in THE WATERBOY-girls are the devil! hahaha! NO!! just kidding, sorry *honestly, i dont think kids should be brought into religions until they are older. They are too young to know any better when they are young and they will believe what they are told. Then most likely, just follow what they've always known and believed.  |
Date: 6/29/2003 8:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 42568
Hey Brenda.  I actually had a premonition about you making this post. This is what I think: Kids try to make other little kids scared. I think it is very important to make sure what kind of children your own children hang out with. My nephew plays with a lot of little kids around his age that live on the same street. Anthony (supposedly my nephew's best friend) told him something just like that and my nephew too cried. I know that as parents and grandparents, you want to "protect" the little ones you love from any harm... but that's actually something that can be healthy for kids, ya know? If a child grows up in a big supportive bubble, without any problems... they have a rough life ahead of them. I'm not saying you shouldn't do anything about this though; just that I hope you can stay relaxed. My advice is to have a good-lengthed talk with Christopher, and try to make him understand that even though someone says something, that doesn't make it true. I don't think it really matters what religion one child is and whether the devil really is coming to get you. All that matters is that kids learn at a young age that a person can hold a belief with pride, and it is okay if you disagree. Tell Christopher that Steven was just being a kid, trying to scare him. If Steven says it again, tell Christopher to say something back to him. Even though your family may not be religious... you can get around this issue without dealing with beliefs. It is fact that we are all very far from perfect and are all "sinners." It's a classic case of a bully... I used to be one of them. Steven is using his age to make him feel "superior" to little Christopher. I don't think you should talk to her mother... hopefully if you talk to Christopher, everything will be OK. My nephew is also four so I'm familiar with the age. He may be young but kids are a lot smarter than most think.  |
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Date: 6/29/2003 8:59:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12341
I won't ever let it turn ugly. I held Christopher and told him, "No way, you are not going in the fire". Sure, I WANT them, more than anything, above all else to become, educated thinking men, develop their own understanding of conseqences in the world, and still be compassionate and caring, without fear, without threat. But at this young age, I'm learning that others have, specifically youngsters, do have, through the power of their parents to instill thoughts and beliefs that we do not have. They do not wear bathing suits and the mother has said to me, even though she is American, "She may as well get used to it, 'cause that's what her Dad believes in. He is Muslim. The other mother is also American born, wears the full hajib, and is American. Are we subject to what they believe, simple because we live close by, AND since we have no proof of hell, why should we, or why would we believe it, or "let the little ones come to their own conclusion"? |
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Date: 6/29/2003 9:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 38095
SG, there's a good deal of pride here that needs to be done away with on ALL SIDES before this issue can be dealt with. Whether you believe one way or another doesn't matter. What matters is not the same for everyone; you must first establish soe common ground, then work from there (talking on the part of the other family). And, as has been stated, the kids are ALOT smarter than we give 'em credit for. I still say let them find their own ways when the time comes. Protection is all well and good, but not everything can be guarded against. It is these things that must be prepared for. As per the whole religion thing, if they are extreme Muslim, negotiations probably won't get off the ground. This may or may not apply in your case; some people are just more adamant in their beliefs... (tell me if that made no sense, I'm nearly out of it as it is...) |
Date: 6/29/2003 9:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 54987
None in my view  |
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Date: 6/29/2003 9:07:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12341
Kelly, Thank you! I like your advice. Bethann, you, somehow you always hit the nail right on Girl! When I say we aren't religious, please don't think we are not believing in anything or have no concerns for the children as far as religion. We do, I really do worry more about just instilling in them to be kind, decent responsible human beings. They each are little men, I know, so well, the responsibility of being a Grandparent, mine instilled many strong feelings, and I think a spirit of compassion and love, but yet I do not, will not, can not, percieve of little ones being frightened, or scared. |
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Date: 6/29/2003 9:10:00 PM
From Authorid: 42568
I think that's wonderful Brenda. Your grandchildren are VERY lucky. |
Date: 6/29/2003 9:12:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
I Think you should have periodic teaching sessions (geared to the age of course) wherein you explain that the whole world is made up of so many people, and many different cultures and beliefs, and tell them there are many reasons for why people believe what they do. It can be very simple, and basic, at first, and then you can add more as they get older and as they have more questions, and or as you deem necessary (that another lesson is needed). You can explain what you feel, and always always explain why. I know that you are openminded, and if, in the name of open-mindedness, you are allowing them to be exposed to various religious indoctrinations, then I want to ask you to think about something. What would you do if YOU had been raised a racist, and you had spent years overcoming this upbringing. Would you then turn around and allow the children to be exposed to a racist upbringing and atmosphere just for the sake of being open minded and unbiased? You know it is impossible to shield children from EVERY thing harmful. The very best you can do is SHOW them by example (and, Brenda, I know YOU are a good example!) and teach them to THINK; to ask questions, and teach them to be aware, and WHAT to be aware of. The most effective technique organized religion has going for it is to begin indoctrinating young children BEFORE they have developed skills at critical thinking. You can arm them with what to expect; tell them what the various techniques of recruitment/indoctrination are; what brainwashing MEANS, what the scientific method is; what the tactics of the charlatans are; etc, and then adjust the time and amount as they get older; and always with honesty and sincerety. It is an AWESOME TASK; very hard, but at the same time, you know that you are raising future leaders who will have much to contribute to our world as honest, value-based adults.  |
Date: 6/29/2003 9:13:00 PM
From Authorid: 14464
You should take them and sit them down and tell them about religion. You should explain to them what heaven and hell is and that if they are bad doesn't mean that they will end up in hell. I think children should be taught about every religion and then that way they can choose what they want to believe.  |
Date: 6/29/2003 9:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 38095
I say the same, Bethann. Very lucky, indeed. SG, you're a good person, kind and compassionate; perhaps a bit on the fanatic side (concerning your grandkids, but who isn't  ) One thing you must consider about me: I'm only 19, people! I may give serious enough advice, and it's usually rather applicable, but I'm not infallible. My best advice, barring nothing, to you, Shadow: Listen to whatever your heart tells you. The heart is never wrong. |
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Date: 6/29/2003 9:15:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12341
Koolaid, what age should religion be instilled and DO parents have that right to make theirs the one that will be righ, all inclusive. Our world is becoming more diverse, our children more exposed. How do we separate our beliefs and those of others and yet instill the common good of each one? |
Date: 6/29/2003 9:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 53052
explain to the child that what she said she only said becuase of her religious faith... maybe subject the children to different types of religions and the basics so they learn the divrsity.. learn the positive aspects of them not just the negitive ones... i personally think it's good for children to be introduced to the diversity of different religions and beliefs they tend to be more rounded then 1 sided and more understanding to cultural differences...  |
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Date: 6/29/2003 9:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 38095
Children should NEVER be forced to follow ANY religion. As Ghost said, teach them about all religions (helps to have a good collection of books handy), then let them decide. It helps to start them around 7 or 8 years old, but 10 is a good age, providing they're not already too far gone. I still hold to 8, myself. |
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Date: 6/29/2003 9:20:00 PM
From Authorid: 53052
i do agree with people sayung let them find thier own way.... but they need to know what ways there are what the options are they need to know there is no right or wrong religion and whatever ANYONE says there is no right or wrong when it comes to making the personal choice.... but they need to learn and find out what's out there.... introduced to different diversities to become open minded |
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Date: 6/29/2003 9:22:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12341
Thinker, I thank you for that advice, I'm still reeling. MW, LOL, yes, yes, I am a fanatic when it comes to my grandkids, I realize that. I do lots that other grandparents JUST don't do, I'm very much THERE for them, for their Mommy, so this post is very honest, very open, it represents our life. I want to be fair, and yet I don't want my babies to learn something that is unacceptable to me, based on another's belief. that very concept scares me. They ARE growing up! And others are TOUCHING their lives. It does scare me. |
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Date: 6/29/2003 9:24:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12341
Midnightly, the father is Arabic, the mother is American, the child is being raised as a very strict Muslim. At first, I thoght the friendship was harmless, now I'm having second thoughts? |
Date: 6/29/2003 9:26:00 PM
From Authorid: 38095
lol Shadow, you're just like my mother; She's the same way about her grandkids (the same way I am about my niece and nephews, though I may be a bit mean to them on occasion  Very protective, and rightly so. I can't really say anything else, as I've racked my brain for the last few replies. (maybe tomorrow...) I'll see what else I can come up with then. |
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Date: 6/29/2003 9:27:00 PM
From Authorid: 53052
you might want to bring this incident up with the child's parents they might not even know about this... you can't really repremend their child against something she might not have known was wrong to say.... but her parents should know what she said and be talked to about why what she said was inapropriate |
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Date: 6/29/2003 9:38:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12341
Midnightly, Thinker, MW, I appreciate all of you, and Bethann so much. This was very real, Christopher was in the other room when he started screaming, and I'm asking him. "Baby, (and yes he is my baby)what is wrong? And he said, "I'm going to burn in the fire", took awhle to get the whole story out of both boys. The mother of the little girl lives according to the father's belief's and doesn't work outside the home, she is very much, even though she has had a different background, accepting of all that he believes in. I really hate to separate the children, and yet, I worry what will come next. |
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Date: 6/29/2003 9:41:00 PM
From Authorid: 38095
If it comes right down to it, you may have to seperate them. Simple as that. |
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Date: 6/29/2003 9:47:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12341
They are all closely age related. |
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Date: 6/29/2003 9:47:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12341
MW, that is what I've hoped to avoid. I have come to the conclusion, I HAVE to let her mother know that we do not follow that belief, and that we respect them, and what they belive in and yet, they must also teach their children, (same here) that others do THINK and BELIEVE differently. I actually have two Muslim families and their children are the only neighborhood children that my grandchildren play with. |
Date: 6/29/2003 9:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 31765
You make me mis my own grandparents, ShadowGhost I don't have any answers for you, but I think those two boys are way ahead of the curve having such a concerned Grandma. I know you'll find your answers to these tough questions.  |
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Date: 6/29/2003 9:50:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12341
Bethann, I KNOW how right you are, I can't protect them and yet I still hate to deprive them of playmates. Arrrhhh!!! |
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Date: 6/29/2003 9:59:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12341
Thanks LP. I just want to to what's best, and yet I want them to be okay. When my baby Christopher cried, it hurt. I don't want him worrying about going in the fire yet. Sure, I want him to learn right and wrong, I want him to learn to accept others and what they believe, but he's only just four. |
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Date: 6/29/2003 10:04:00 PM
From Authorid: 53052
i'm sure there will be a middle ground and hopefully the mother is fialry understanding and open minded when you talk to her... children can be great friends with no notice of a religion guiding them.... lets hope a simple talk can make all the difference |
Date: 6/29/2003 10:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
I must say that the replies I've read to your post are amazing. You have been given some wonderful ideas with a sense of diversity. I do believe that the religious teaching and the responsibility for a childs spiritual education falls on the parent or gaurdian. They are always going to be exposed to other children with different beliefs. Tough to avoid that. I think it's all just part of growing up. I used to believe in the "boogie man" but finally out grew it, LOL. Be open and honest and I think everything will be just fine...  |
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Date: 6/29/2003 10:09:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12341
Midnightly, that is what I hope for, I really hope she will understand, and the children can go on with thier friendship. I don't know, but I'm hoping that Amneea will have to also understand that not everyone should be told, or should be told that what her family believes in is right, or should even be shared. She is a sweet little girl and I do not want her hurt either. |
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Date: 6/29/2003 10:23:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12341
KC, I appreciate your thoughts, very much. I know they will grow out of the "boogie man", I did, but a touch stayed with me, just a touch. I still ponder and think and I don't want to leave the same. All that I am and all that I believe in will touch and affect my grandchildren forever. I must make good descisions and choices. I have a huge imput in their lives. |
Date: 6/30/2003 4:04:00 AM
From Authorid: 15157
I think children learn by their parents...simply by if they pray before meals...or if they go to church. Some children are born into religion and go on from there. Me?....I was born in religion. I didn`t have a choice....I renaged and went off to another denomination...and guess what? I am back where I started!...  |
Date: 6/30/2003 5:42:00 AM
From Authorid: 44960
ShadowGhost, as a child I forced to go to church, against my will. My suggestion is to Ask your child if they want to go to church, if they say no, then dont force the issue. I know how disasterous church can be, remember, when a child goes to church, they are hearing what the whole congregation is hearing and that is 1 mans conception of his god, and as a child, they carry that conception with them throughout their life. The end result can be disasterous. I know, thats what happened to me.  |
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Date: 6/30/2003 7:39:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
Yep, Miss Priss, same here; and if you want a good example of what religion does to a child, go on over and read all the posts of this young man, Author #54461 . |
Date: 6/30/2003 8:30:00 AM
From Authorid: 47296
Shadow Ghost, I have found you to be a very open minded and honest person. You know well the differences of religion and culture, and the effects, both good and bad, that they have on people. It is often hard with young children to sit them down and explain things to them in a manner that they can fully understand it. When it comes to religion at such a young age, fear is the biggest motivator behind belief. Whether parents or the church do it intentionaly or not, fear is instilled into young children that if that they do not do or live according to a certain code, they are destined to an eternity of Hellfire. Find a way to talk to the children in a way that they will understand that different people believe different things, and that not all things are true for all people. Children that young should be innocent to the ways of the adult world. They should be innocent to the fears and motivations that drive older children and adults. The greatest wisdom that can be achieved is not always by those who are old and gray, but by the innocence of a child that veiws things different from what we do. It may be hard to do, but pick out different kids or families in the neighborhood, and try to explain to your kids the different ways that each believe and live. Keep it simple, and do not use anything negative. Explain that it takes all these people, who each believe different things to make a neighborhood. Sit with them at night, and ask them what they did that day, and ask them if they learned anything. If they say they learned something from another child that you do not agree with, then put it into a perspective that helps them understand that what they learned is not true for all children. As they get older, then you can discuss more openly the differences of religion, and why people believe the way they do. By then, they will understand that not all things are meant for all people. In a diverse community, children are exposed to many different ideas, and will often believe the ideas that they fear the most. Let them know that they should not fear what others do, and that if they are afraid because of what someone else says, that they should talk to you about it. Peace be to you.  |
Date: 6/30/2003 8:41:00 AM
From Authorid: 18527
Alycia went to Daycare at a house where the family was Muslim and one of the little boys told her the same thing. I just told her we all have different beliefs...and that it wasn't very nice for him to say that to you.  |
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Date: 6/30/2003 8:44:00 AM
From Authorid: 18527
And as far as raising the kids, I asked Aly if she wanted to go to VBS. She loved it and would have gone this year if things worked out:P However it is her choice whether she wants to go or not. |
Date: 6/30/2003 10:15:00 PM
From Authorid: 42945
a very good post Sis, and with the little ones being exposed to all different views of everything, not only religion, I think all we can do is to explain that everyone can have different ideas and lets face it, those children are expressing their families views as well, if these comments are frightening or mean, its just like anything in life...they have to learn to cope and deal with it, sad as it is...unfortunately they are going to come across this type of situation all their lives and while you give those younguns all the love and kindness that you do give them, I'm sure they will learn to do just this as they grow up...  |
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Date: 7/1/2003 10:03:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12341
THAT Zema is what gives me the most energy, and keeps me going. I want to think, and see people, not for what they may seem to be, but their essence. To become men with compassion, principles, but an understanding that we each are different, we think, we see life differently, but how we REACT to it, what we give back, is MORE important than our own perception. I want them to be decent and moral, not because of fear but because of human kindness and to develop an understanding of good and bad based on THE person, not because of religious affilliation or church going. |
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Date: 7/1/2003 10:33:00 PM
From Authorid: 54987
Shadow Ghost, sorry for taking ages to respond.. I just say your reply. As I said I don't think chidren should be exposed to religion. As Thinker pointed out... you wouldn't want to expose a child to racist bigotry would you? At the age of adulthood a person can choose whatever belief they want and feel comfortable with. It is not right to fill a child with dogman and myth and pass it off as truth. So many lives have been ruined or at least hampered by childhood indoctrination. Some will take it onboard... but it is unfair to force it on a child until they are ready to make their own decisions. |
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Date: 7/1/2003 10:53:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12341
Good point Koolaid! I said something similar to Thinker earlier. How the heck does a four year "find his way"? The very audacity that some would think "their way" is better than, or is needed. This same child, by the way is a good child, but her brother is eleven, and despite their beliefs, talks to the mother like she is dirt. I have seen him hit and kick the younger children. He is ten years old. So much for respect. The boy is being raised contrary to my beliefs, MEN do not have power over women. This woman is an American born woman, but she believes, ACCORDING to her new faith, that Men have a greater standing. Hey, its all based on religion, which one is the right one though? Two doors down I have another one, lived all her life as a Catholic, raised in catholic church and schools, she marries a Muslim and his beliefs are hers now. She never goes outside without her head covered or long skirts. But she will admit being anal about her children respecting her, although they run wild, even the two year old. I sit outside just to watch this child because the mother won't, she believes "God will protect her". I need to move! |
