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Date: 6/19/2003 4:51:00 PM
From Authorid: 18527
amen!!!  |
Date: 6/19/2003 4:51:00 PM
From Authorid: 45948
Very good point!!!  |
Date: 6/19/2003 4:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 15675
Sorry I really dont agree...we are a LAND OF THE FREE not LAND OF THE CHRISTIANS. There is a difference  |
Date: 6/19/2003 5:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 47699
Amen! I agree wholeheartedly. Very, very well-done.  |
Date: 6/19/2003 5:15:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
I have to agree with Kaja. I did not fight for the right of Christians to say prayers or worship God. I fought for the right of all people to be free to either worship as they see fit, or to be free from those who do worship. If you wish to pray, that is fine, but our government can make no law that gives only Christians that right to pray. The first ammendment is not about seperation of church and state as many believe. The first ammenmdment is about freedom of speech, but it explicitly states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;". What that statement means is if you want to pray, that is your right, but, do not expect any laws to be passed that will give you explicit rights as a Christians to pray.  |
Date: 6/19/2003 5:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 44960
Sounds like someone preaching a sermon with a church, much less a congregation. I disagree with this post and everything it promotes.  |
Date: 6/19/2003 5:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
"silent majority"!?? LMAO! Dearie, if the Most popular brand of Religion in this country were EVER silent; if they just simply kept their beliefs at home, in the churches and in silent prayers; IF they didn't insist on THEIR songs; THEIR prayers; THEIR God; THEIR under-god this and in-god-we that; if they weren't so pushy and insistent that EVERYONE pledge to THEIR God; if they didn't look down upon anyone who doesn't believe THEIR way as though they are second class or not even citizens at all!....well, I wouldn't have a blooming thing to say about it! Now, honey, you wanna talk about a "silent" MINORITY.....that is what I USED to belong to. NOT ANY MORE! So, go on, give it your best shot. Tell me again, tell me the LIES about how "This country was founded on Christian principles"!! "Christian principles" is an oxymoron.  |
Date: 6/19/2003 5:20:00 PM
From Authorid: 56410
I agree with Kaja. It bothers me (though I am Catholic) to see all this Christian mumbo jumbo all around, and no Jewish, no Muslim, no Buddhist mumbo jumbo as well. I don't care if the country was founded with Christian beliefs, it exists with the faith of everyone nowadays..  |
Date: 6/19/2003 5:22:00 PM
From Authorid: 10245
disagree.  |
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Date: 6/19/2003 5:23:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
I do have to laugh when I see people say "God is on our side". With the crime rates, the number of homeless, and every other problem facing us today, how can anyone faithfully say, "God is on our side."? This country is going to Hades in a handbasket, not because people have forsaken religion, but because people have decided they need judges to tell them what is right and wrong, and because there is no longer enough backbone in people to stand up to the things that are wrong. |
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Date: 6/19/2003 5:26:00 PM
From Authorid: 18527
Free to do as we please as long as it doesn't hurt others, and if someone is hurt by a prayer, I feel really sorry for them! |
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Date: 6/19/2003 5:36:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Kethria, YOU do not have any idea what FREEDOM means! When someone say they are free; it means they are free FROM something, what do they mean? Did they just escape from a jail? Did they break away from an abusive spouse? What? When the founding fathers came here, it was to be FREE from the domination of the church! They wanted to worship as THEY wanted and or NOT AT ALL if they chose! I do not care one teeny tiny bit that you pray; pray your little heads off! but I will not be forced to do the same and or even listen to your religious rituals!! No, I am not "hurt" by any prayers; I am just annoyed by them; bored by them; and do not need them. One night recently I went to a huge banquet put on by a local bank. It was huge; lotsa people from all over the city and of every race and belief. Everything was going great, but then this guy gets up to say a prayer before dinner.....and, well, that wasn't so bad *wince* but uh boy....I swear to you, I've never heard such a LONG....LONG....LONG drawn out prayer in my whole life! It never was going to end. People started nudging each other, giving each other weird , wide eyed, "What the...!!??. Many people got up and left....and so did I. |
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Date: 6/19/2003 5:43:00 PM
From Authorid: 47699
I'm with you here, Keth. |
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Date: 6/19/2003 5:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 10245
I agree with that point, Keth. No one should be hurt by a prayer, but I do believe that Christian prayers only beolong in Christian settings... our country is a melting pot, no one set of beliefs should be "the norm". |
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Date: 6/19/2003 5:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
It is not so simple as a "leetle prayer". Oh that it were! The Far religious Right is never satisfied. They want it all! Did you know how the pledge was ORIGINALLY read? Do you KNOW how that "under god" part was SNUCK in there during the McCarthy Era; the Cold War, and everyone was put into this "commie scare"? Do you know that it originally read "One nation, indivisible, with Liberty and justice for ALL"? THAT is what the founding fathers wrote; and they meant it to be Liberty for ALL people, all races, ALL religions; not just Christian! "E pluribus Unum" AS ONE....United. Each and everyone, if they are HONEST, will admit that if the pledge said "Under Mohammed or Under Vishnu" or "in Buddha we trust", that they would be screaming just as loud and citing the Constitution! Count on it! There was a dumb Senator from one of the Bible belt states on the 700 club the other night....LYING THROUGH HIS TEETH and promoting some kind of legislation he wanted to pass that favors the christian religion...hehehe...well, i dashed off a letter to this numbskull and told him what a liar he was and how it was a darn shame that HE, of all people, did not know (or seem to care!) exactly what the Constitution was all about! Guess what? Yep, he sent me back a form letter; a nice neat little re-hash of the same that he was saying on the 700 club! |
Date: 6/19/2003 7:43:00 PM
From Authorid: 28190
I believe in God, but I also agree that others should have their rights to believe or Not to believe in whatever they choose. I don't consider myself being pushed around by anyone, and I pray whenever I choose to, as well. I dont push my belief system on anyone, and I think thats why we get the "bad" outlook, because a lot of the organized christian religions push it on others, even after they say,"no thank you". Where is the line drawn? I dont know, But I will respect people for WHO they are before I ever judge them on what they arent. If that makes sense. I can always pray and be heard by my God, thats something nobody can take away from me. I am secure in that, so I dont really see why its a big deal if they do take it away from public places. But then again, this is just me, like it or not  *hugs*  |
Date: 6/19/2003 7:58:00 PM
From Authorid: 62100
I think that if someone wants to have a prayer before a game or what not that they have the right to do so..but do it privately or in their own little group or whatever..they have the right, yet the masses of people who came to merely watch a game should not be force into participating or even bowing their head in respect to the prayer..it is a CHOICE..noone has the right to FORCE it upon spectators, other teams, etc.  |
Date: 6/19/2003 8:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 6860
Very good post, it's very well thought-out and presented in a good manner. And I do agree with you to an extent. Yes, religious peoples are being forced to not be able to practice in public. I agree, if you don't like a prayer at a soccer game, go to the concession stand, or simply do not part take in the prayer. However, if we as atheists or agnostics have to respect you, your believes, and your practices, then you as Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddists, etc. must respect the practices and views of athiests and agnostics. It's a two way street, and if you (as a group) want respect and acceptance from us, you have to show us respect and acceptance as well.  |
Date: 6/20/2003 12:26:00 AM
From Authorid: 53900
I agree with you I believe that pryer and faith is what is missing in many kids lives today and having prayer back in school or school event or even sporting events for that matter is not a bad thing. It is not going to "hurt" anyone. And whoever said that when we pray to god that those people have to pray to the same god or for that matter have to partake in the prayer at all? As for the pledge what exactly is so wrong in saying In God We Trust??? I do not understand the big deal there...This country by the way was founded a long time before the constitution was ever written and if I remember correctly were the pilgrims not coming here to establish their freedom to have their own choice in religion? I mean that is what I was taught since I was about 6 years old...but hey maybe I am wrong there.  |
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Date: 6/20/2003 12:48:00 AM
From Authorid: 53900
oh by the way that comment was about the first ammendment and the argument that I have seen used on here so many times that this country was not founded on christian beliefs. Our forefather came here to escape religious persecution in their own country. That has nothing to do with the bible or the constitution...I did want to add one more thing what exactly is it that makes people think that hearing God bless us or protect us or anything like that is going to harm them? So many people who do not want to accept that as part of events like you mentioned would expect us to accept things we do not believe in.... |
Date: 6/20/2003 1:25:00 AM
From Authorid: 6867
I agree w/you 100%. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech etc.....Ppl have a right to say a prayer, recite the pledge, whatever...before a sporting event or others. The first amendment is in place to protect ppl's freedom to do so. I may not agree w/white supremicists, some musicians lyrics, other religions, BUT it is their RIGHT to believe the way they want to, and voice their opinions publicly if they choose to. The 1st amendment protects them.<-(this is to the opposing side)->W/out it you wouldn't be able to protest it right? I always thought the first amendment protected the "speech" of that you didn't agree with. Don't know if that made any sense, and I don't debate very well...but I just wanted to add that...LOVE YOURSELF,  |
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Date: 6/20/2003 1:54:00 AM
From Authorid: 47296
Everyone likes to quote the Bill of Rights, which is the first ten ammendments to the Constitution. How many though know why we had ten ammendments to the original Constitution before the Constituion was ever signed and adopted? It was because our original Constitution outlined all the rules covering our form of government, but gave no rights to individuals. Many delegates refused to even present the Constitution to their states unless ammendments were added that would give certain rights to the individual. It had nothing to do with being fine upstanding Christian men, but because the memories were still fresh of both the religous and government persecution of the British Crown, and the framers wanted to insure that no American would ever again have to face that same persecution. Yet today, there are people who want their religous views brought to the forefront in government, and want laws that will protect their religous practices. Remember, Congress can make no laws respecting the establishment of a religion. For Congress to pass a law guaranteeing Christian prayer before any event, is a direct and gross violation of the first ammenment of the Constitution. I remember in school when we were told we could no longer hold public prayer. A lot of people were angry about it, but up until that point it was rarely realized that there were others in the classroom who were not Christian, and that our prayers did fit in with their beliefs. Once this was realized, rather than saying a public prayer, the school system I attended adopted a moment of silence in which all students could say a silent prayer to whatever God they worshiped, or say no prayer at all, and only refelct. There is a big push on in this country to get certain laws put in effect that support the Christian belief. That is not what this country is about. If such laws are adopted, then it will effect people who are not Christian. This is a free country where you do have a right to pray to God if you so wish, but understand, others also have a right even if they do not worship the same way you do. It does not matter if Chrstianity is the main religion in this country. The Constitution, and especially the Bill of Rights, applies to all people, regardless of their personal beliefs. |
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Date: 6/20/2003 6:08:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
Matthew, Chapter 6 Verses 5-6 "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not do as the hypocrites; for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in street corners on the streets, that they may be seen of men....but thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy father which is in secret, and thy father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly". |
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Date: 6/20/2003 6:42:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
The Liberties guaranteed by the Bill of Rights are not subject to majority vote. In fact, they are "counter majoritarian" established for the purpose of defending minorities against the tyranny of majority actions. The Framers of OUR Republic saw that majority rule can be as oppressive as that of a powerful dictator. The use of public schools to endorse and promote the religion of the majority rides roughshod over the rights of those of minority persuasions, or those who desire no exposure to religious practices at all. Some of you say "Why not just leave the room when a prayer is being said, or look the other way".....THINK about it! Kids in a classroom are a captive audience. Would YOU want to stand out; looked upon as inferior, be harrassed or face isolation when you DO leave the class room? Children should not feel pressure to conform. If prayers and religious practices of a single religion were re-introduced into the public classroom, it would provide one more criteria by which the majority could use to discriminate against minorities. This would only result in more school violence, not less. Beginning in 1933, Nazi Germany required daily prayers in ALL public and private schools. Just how much effect do you think that had on the Wehrmacht and SS troops who overran and occupied most of Europe? Those two kids who were arrested in the Jonesboro murders back in '98? were active church members. There are so many examples which clearly indicates that prayer and religion in public schools have no effect with regard to violence and morals. MY take on the whole thing is: HYPOCRISY does!! Many kids notice their parents or the Religious Right screaming on one hand "Freedom of speech!" when it comes to their wanting to stuff Christianity down everyone's throat, but ...just let the kids want to read Harry Potter books, or start a Gay Rights support club, or an Atheist support group; or wear a T-shirt or necklace with a pentagram on it....and ohhhh noooooo! THAT must not be; and to heck with "freedom of speech" for THOSE guys!! Whoever was the original author of this e-mail that was sent to Sassy, was one of the hard-core Christians who THINK the Constitution's guarantee of freedom of religion applies to no one else except Christians! Simply because they want the majority religion to be ABOVE THE LAW! It's not a matter of ignorance anymore; for they have heard the truth about the LAWS many times; it is a matter of stubbornness and arrogance; and they will not settle for anything less than pushing their religion on to everyone and by any means necessary to accomplish that goal. Free Speech? Yeah, right! |
Date: 6/20/2003 6:51:00 AM
From Authorid: 2030
Freedom of religion means just that. Freedom to or not to practice religion. personally some guy saying a long drawn out prayer before a banquet (in any religion) is annoying but I'm not going to stomp out. If faith makes people happy then fine, leave them alone with it. There are hypocrites of every stripe, in every religion or lifestyle. Let em pray- they're no threat to me or anyone else.  |
Date: 6/20/2003 7:57:00 AM
From Authorid: 47162
Honestly, if a lil 30 second prayer is not said before an event, I don't think that strips us of our religious freedoms. We're so paranoid about our rights being taken away, that we will do anything to look like a victim. Thus we spout off about these little things that don't really matter. This is such a moot point it doesn't matter. The people who argue about not saying a prayer before an event, are they really praying at home at all? That's the big issue. If you're praying at home and in your personal life.  |
Date: 6/20/2003 9:58:00 AM
From Authorid: 59163
people dont pray to buddha openly in china first off. and this is america. america has a seperation of church and state. if you dont like it, feel free to move to isreal or some other religous state. i like my freedom thank you very much  |
Date: 6/20/2003 10:15:00 AM
From Authorid: 57404
I kinda agree with both sides. We are a melting pot, with all types of religions. So instead of saying God's prayer before an event, maybe make it a silent moment, so that you can pray to whomever you believe in. If you believe in nothing, then it gives you time to do whatever. But I'm sure someone would complain about that too. People complain about everything, even if there is no reason to complain. People sue over the smallest things. Nothing will change, we could change our religions to nothing, but people would go and find something else to attack. That is just how it is. I believe in God, and until Our President stops saying "God Bless American" And goverment building no longer have something in them that has the word God in them... And the word God is completely removed from every single thing in America. I am not going to worry about it. lol it will always be a debate, there will always be heated tempers. Heck maybe I can sue the Jahova (?) witnesses just because they preach what they believe. LOL God Bless  |
Date: 6/20/2003 10:21:00 AM
From Authorid: 12835
I'm with Mercury on this one. I agree to a point. Actually, I believe if a prayer is offered, it could be in any form, doesn't have to be a Christian prayer, it could be any. As long as no one is injured, then no reason to not let them offer a prayer. Equal time for all I guess...  |
Date: 6/20/2003 10:32:00 AM
From Authorid: 19092
I agree Sassy, things sure have changed. Let the gay's out of the closet and now that it's empty, let's stick the christians in it....  |
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Date: 6/20/2003 10:37:00 AM
From Authorid: 12835
LOL @ King |
Date: 6/20/2003 10:46:00 AM
From Authorid: 52140
Christians have a right to pray anywhere htey want. I pray before I eat, whether Im at home, school (among friends who are atheist, wiccan, christian, etc). I don't care what anyone thinks. I think America would be worse off if we said that people had to be Christians. It would be just like the Soviet Union "Christian" style. Ok yeah, it would be great to have a nation where everyone loves and worships God. Unfortunately, it'll never happen. Too many people are concerned with their own pleasure and making sure that they get what they want. There are others who do not want Christianity. And others simply do not have the faith (or reject it) to believe. Its a sad thing. I think that now with all the freedoms she has in America, the church is too spoiled. We whine (sp) and cry when our friends make fun of us or our beliefs are "downed" by a Wiccan or Atheist, but in all truth, Christians in America do NOT know the MEANING of persecution. If you think some of the things to face is bad, look at Africa where ex-Muslims are killed for converting to Christianity, or in Russia where Atheist communists killed christians for not shutting up. There are alot of worse places than America. You can pray in a public play w/o getting sued!! You have just as much right to religion and prayer as the next person. So, I agree with what your saying, but to make America a Christian nation would be a mistake. We have the biggest mission field here! America need Christ just as much as the voodoo witch doctor in Africa. If America was a Christian nation, we would become bored and lazy. Its other people's rights to believe what they want, as long as they don't TRAMPLE on someone else's.  |
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Date: 6/20/2003 10:57:00 AM
From Authorid: 52140
*Christian prayers only beolong in Christian settings* Mercury, just as someone has the right to talk to their friend, business partner, or grandmother, religious people have the right to talk to their deity. Im not going to talk to my God ONLY in church or ONLY at church or ONLY at the flagpole. I'm gonna talk to Him whenever I want, where ever I want. If I want to get down on my knees in the middle of a lunch, thats my choice to do so. No one has the right to tell me to stop or get up. Its people's rights. If someone doesn't like it, they can talk to me about it. I usually pray quietly unless Im by myself. If I saw a Muslim, or a Buddist (sp), or someone else praying to their God, I'd have no problem with it. I think its awesome for someone to have the guts to be able to stand up for their religion; to be able to brave being made fun of or stared at for praying! |
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Date: 6/20/2003 11:05:00 AM
From Authorid: 52140
AHH! That was sent twice! Im sry |
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Date: 6/20/2003 11:05:00 AM
From Authorid: 52140
*Christian prayers only beolong in Christian settings* Mercury, just as someone has the right to talk to their friend, business partner, or grandmother, religious people have the right to talk to their deity. Im not going to talk to my God ONLY in church or ONLY at church or ONLY at the flagpole. I'm gonna talk to Him whenever I want, where ever I want. If I want to get down on my knees in the middle of a lunch, thats my choice to do so. No one has the right to tell me to stop or get up. Its people's rights. If someone doesn't like it, they can talk to me about it. I usually pray quietly unless Im by myself. If I saw a Muslim, or a Buddist (sp), or someone else praying to their God, I'd have no problem with it. I think its awesome for someone to have the guts to be able to stand up for their religion; to be able to brave being made fun of or stared at for praying! |
Date: 6/20/2003 12:35:00 PM
From Authorid: 13974
There are a lot of posts I have not read, so forgive me if I am repeating. The issue isn't over your right to pray. It is about the seperation of church and state. Freedom of AND from religion. Pray all you want to, spend all day and pray. Pray at work, in a school, before a game, afterward, during. Nobody cares. The issue is that the school cannot sanction it. When we create a law, it doesn't just aply to some, it has to apply to all, or what is the point of having it?  |
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Date: 6/20/2003 12:40:00 PM
From Authorid: 59163
christians should have just as much right as muslims. the thing is christians "right" to prayer is their right to prayer. its not the sports right to pray for a mixed crowd. if it was "christ football day" then yea, knock your socks off. but if its a public affair, and you are in america. suck it up and keep your beliefs to yourself. this idea of seperation between church and public affairs is what helped make this country great. i'm not about to change it because the christians feel that THEY are being persecuted. and by the way, i'm not an atheist |
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Date: 6/20/2003 12:46:00 PM
From Authorid: 13974
Your statment that you didn't call a lawyer about evelution, and relating it to prayer is invalid. Prayer has nothing to do with the class. It has to do with the individual. Evelution, on the other hand, is a valid scientific theory, thus a SCIENCE class is the appropriate place for one, and not the other. |
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Date: 6/20/2003 9:34:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Rather a very telling statement; wouldn't anyone agree; that anyone putting a topic in DEBATE, but not participating at all....really tells the truth about the whole thing? What happened to the "We're fighting back" statement in this copy and pasted e-mail post? |
Date: 6/21/2003 1:28:00 AM
From Authorid: 62085
^^^5 yesss. I see posts where people say they dont approve of special laws for Christians, but i bet they do for gay rights laws etc, which is simply sexual preference, not free speech.  |
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Date: 6/21/2003 1:33:00 AM
From Authorid: 62085
Warrior spirit, yes God is on our side, however being that people have thrown Bibles out of schools, taken prayer out of schools, etc.. we have raised a generation of lawlessness. This is the result of absence of God in our lives. Since darwinism, prayer restrictions, our culture has steadily corrupted. Check crime rates etc,,, before banning Bibles, and after. |
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Date: 6/21/2003 1:40:00 AM
From Authorid: 62085
LOL, our country was established and founded by people (pilgrims) trying to escape persecution from Worshipping God, Messiah, Jesus. Isnt it ironic that many are trying to shut him out of this country? |
Date: 6/21/2003 9:17:00 AM
From Authorid: 51463
I agree with Kethria =-bootz-=  |
Date: 6/21/2003 9:33:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
"we have raised a generation of lawlessness. This is the result of absence of God in our lives. Since darwinism, prayer restrictions, our culture has steadily corrupted. Check crime rates etc,,, before banning Bibles, and after. " - The Bible doesn't make the laws, well not anymore thankfully. Many of the laws are more humane than what the Bible would have you do. Do you really want it back to the Church being in power and killing any free thinkers, no wonder there were little crimes not because of the Bible but because of fear.  |
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Date: 6/21/2003 9:54:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
Someone needs to go back up there and read my reply at 6:00 a.m yesterday morning. "God is on our side" person #62085, needs to get rid of that old tired, worn out and FALSE premise of "since prayer was removed from schools blah blah blah blah...", THAT is so lame. Christianity still holds the trophy for the greatest amount of persecution and bloodshed in World History! Christianity is so devious, so insidious, that the bloodbath reigned unchecked for hundreds and hundreds of years, whereas, for example, Stalinism and Nazism reigned for more than a few decades before they were overthrown. Go check it out; do a survey, poll the millions of prisoners in our penal system. The vast majority are of some religious background and profess a particular God belief. Last time I took a look at some statistics, it was predominately Catholic, followed by Christianity, and then a few others, with atheists being a very small per cent. |
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Date: 6/21/2003 12:55:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12862
First off, THANK YOU for the replies! Second, no I didn't write this. Someone sent this to me and I wanted to get other peoples opinions! There is nothing wrong about that!!!  |
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Date: 6/21/2003 1:03:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12862
Oh yeah and third, I agree with this wholeheartedly!!! |
Date: 6/21/2003 7:38:00 PM
From Authorid: 22080
hey wanna know something funny, you pray to god even though he has this devine plan that i seriously doubt he's gonna change for a simple prayer from a simple person, also if a prayer is unanswered "god wills it" well that just puzzles me, if god wills it then why do it in the first place and if he is so all powerful he could have seen this coming forever-ago and had everything planned out already, see my point? but anyway onto the debate, when christians stop dictating our lives we'll stop dictating yours. oh and 1 more thing, china's national religon is atheism last time i checked  |
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Date: 6/21/2003 7:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 62085
Thinker, your rebuttal to my post made absolutely no sense. Christian bloodbaths? Where do u get your facts- the Satanic Bible? lol, the attacks i got for just posting my opinion shows hatred towards christians in these last days. What you fail to uncover is that i have been on both sides of the issue, and there is only 1 truth. Open up your eyes, humble yourself, and you will see who the true God is.. btw-- what does nazi's and commies have to do with my post? Lay off the Iron Madien cd's while posting bro' |
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Date: 6/21/2003 8:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 62085
Jester, u seem cool and we haved posted in the same forums before, but the last thing i would do is dictate your life. Its hard enough trying to live my own. All i can do is post what i know, have seen, heard, and experienced. Eternal life or death is the choice we will all make by ourselves, no one will dictate it... |
Date: 6/21/2003 9:46:00 PM
From Authorid: 3125
Jestr, So what you are saying then is that atheists are fighting against religious movements in China and an atheist goverment is taking away the citizens freedom of religion rights? In other words, "You do it my way or no way!" Where's the fairness in this? Religious groups are not welcome in China. The current government (atheists) there does not wish to share power with those who has any religious beliefs. That is so downright unfair and ridiculous and should not be permitted. This is a good way to cause a war and rightfully so. The Times was correct when they reported that the current regime knows full well that religious movements have power and they will not allow any movement in which they may have to compete with. Regardless, Despite the label of "official atheism," Beijing is willing to do business with certain religious groups. It allows Pat Robertson to broadcast his television programming throughout China. Pat Robertson is a co-investor, along with the Riady family of Indonesia, in China Entertainment Broadcast Ltd. The current government is also dealing with the Vatican as well. The Chinese government will do business with the churches when it is advantageous to do so, and the churches must either support or fit in with the plans of the state. It is really sad what an atheist communist government can get away with.  |
Date: 6/21/2003 9:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 57105
Very good post, thank you for sharing! -fantasy/reality  |
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Date: 6/21/2003 10:38:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
AGAIN, Rusure, you simply do not know what you are talking about; you're only parrotting that which you've always heard from the pulpit or other christians who also do not really know. Thw way you guys think and the way you present it, it gives the impression that Atheism = Communism. Please, let me try to explain. Although Communism teaches the non existence of God, that does NOT mean Communism is theistic in its practices and ways of thought. Communism, as practiced in China and Russia were VERY fundamentalistic in its approach to Communism as well as atheism, and it is this fundamentalistic thinking which prompts irrational behavior. Communism taught that it had ALL the answers; had an exclusive "truth" and that ALL others, all non-communists were wrong, and squashed all dissenters and opposing viewpoints. (Sound like Christianity?) This is traditionally the theistic way of thinking, if you ask me, acting as if loyal to a higher absolute; and was big on teaching a slave mentality, which is also usually within theistic systems....NOT atheistic thinking. Communism is a form of theism. I just want to make it very clear that Communism and its theistic beliefs and practices is NOT what atheism is all about. Just because a communist doesn't have a god belief, does not mean that they are the way they are BECAUSE of a non-god belief. Just like certain Christian sects or organizations that do some pretty horrible stuff, and you would scream out "That is NOT true christianity!" Does this help you to understand more about atheism versus COMMUNISTS who just happen to be atheists?? |
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Date: 6/21/2003 10:43:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
*typo: should be "That does not mean that Communism is NOT theistic in its practices..." |
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Date: 6/21/2003 11:00:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Author 62085 , It may make no sense to YOU, but I was trying to reply to your statement "This is a result of absense of God in our lives", and I was trying to explain that the teaching religion and prayers in schools and all around, as has been demonstrated throughout history (mentioning some examples) but you cannot understand it. What ever. I can explain it to you but I cannot understand it for you. Also, you are very arrogant and ASSUMING a whole lot by saying you've "been on both sides". What the sam hill do YOU know about ME?? Do you know that I have been on both sides!?? NO, you don't. You haven't a freaking clue how long, how many years, and how much it took to get to where I am. Knock it off with that tired old "Humble yourself and you will blah blah blah"!! I DO KNOW !!! And the smart aleck "Iron Maiden" crack, what's up with that!?? I am not a "bro" either; I am a woman old enough to probably be your grandmother. And, ONE more thing, sweetie.....Go to a search engine on the net....type in "Inquisitions" or "Christian Crusades" "Crusades" or Go take some history courses, anything....Learn! You'll maybe see what I meant by the "bloodbath" usage of the word!, but please do me a favor and do not try to insinuate that I don't know what I am talking about when it is very evident it is the other way around! LEARN what the history of Christianity really IS! |
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Date: 6/21/2003 11:40:00 PM
From Authorid: 3125
Again Thinker..You only think you know where I get my information. Here is just ONE site I have been reading. Maybe you should try it. (http://www.americanatheist.org/columns/ontar7-25-99.html) I have told you time and time again that I do not base my opinions on simply what I hear in the pulpit or what I read in God's Word. Believe it or not girl, I do have a mind of my own. You know, I do have interests in other subjects and I do enjoy reading almost anything. I have no need for you to try to explain anything though. I am sure that all atheisits are not communists. Just because I defend God's Word does not mean I am brain washed and lack any intellect to think on my own. One other thing..I rarely agree with what is taught in the pulpits by many and I definitely do not go by most of those who claim to be Christian teach. I study God's Word and I have for 30 years. There are many other subjects I have taken a great interest in and have studied over the years. So..You only think you know you know where I am coming from. Could it have anything to do with you putting all who proclaim to be believers into the same pot and you make your judgments accordingly? |
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Date: 6/22/2003 5:06:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
Rusure, That site only confirms what I've been saying. The way you presented YOUR reply was not the gist of the article; it wasn't clear as to what atheism is all about. All that stuff on that sight was talking about how COMMUNISM wishes to suppress and or deny ANY and ALL religion. THAT IS NOT WHAT WE (I) ARE ABOUT!! No way in the world do I care who believes WHAT; no matter how whacky that belief may be; I am FOR YOUR RIGHTS....AS HUMANS; AS FREE people, in a FREE country to do so, and as is protected by the Constitution. What I am NOT for, is the rule of the majority; I am NOT for yours or anyone's beliefs being made a state religion; forced upon ALL; pushed and advocated by the goverment. THAT is NOT what atheism is about. We ARE FOR LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL PEOPLE! Communism is NOT. Communism is about force; control, suppression and oppression. The ONLY......ONLY thing that we atheists have in common with Communists is the lack of a god belief. WHY is that so hard to understand? |
Date: 6/22/2003 6:34:00 AM
From Authorid: 54987
No one is trying to stop you praying. What they are trying to stop is it being made mandatory. That is what freedom is about. Schools are not churches. Schools are supposed to be for education. In your free period you can pray to whatever God is your choice. It should not be made part of the curriculum because it is a belief, not a fact. There is plenty of time to pray at home. And there are religious schools you can go to who will welcome you with open arms. There is such a thing as silent prayer which does not require a show. When I was at school we had prayers, but I remember that it was just a quick lip service thing, something we had to do before eating or we got a clip on the ear. So we'd hurry up and say it real fast and our hands were on our forks before the last syllable was spoken. So, at the beginning of your post you seemed very openminded about things when you said jewish, muslim and buddhist prayers wouldn't offend you in those countries. Well I have news for you... there are jews, muslims and buddhists here in the US, as well as Christian. No one is stopping you from praying or believing in a God. If you are offended by my logic.... sue me!  |
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Date: 6/22/2003 7:35:00 PM
From Authorid: 22080
rusure the countries relgion is athiestic but not all the religons are banned, that's just the governments stand-point on religon |
Date: 6/22/2003 7:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 54111
I agree with the post. What will a prayer hurt. Pledge of Allegiance. You are mad because of a little a little phrase? Next thing you know we are not going to be able to say grace in restaurants with the family before we eat. So people were not free when we said the pledge of allegiance at school or at major events? People were not free when a prayer was said? If you don't believe in it.... then don't.  |
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Date: 6/22/2003 8:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 3125
Jestr..I did mention that in my comment. They permit Pat Robertson to broadcast his television programming. Pat Robertson is a co-investor. They also have dealings with the Vatican. The Chinese government will do business with certain religious groups when it is to their advantage. |
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Date: 6/22/2003 10:52:00 PM
From Authorid: 62085
ouch--thinker** good comeback, sorry i did not know u were a lady. anyway the crusades u speak of were Catholic ones, correct? As you can see as of recent news, the Catholic church is false. |
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Date: 6/22/2003 10:58:00 PM
From Authorid: 62085
thinker, it depends on which God u worship, allah was the moon god of the arab people until they decided to worship only him, buddah etc, are not the same Lord i worship. Really look at the schools now, the worst thing that happened when i went was a paddling from a teacher, now its Beruit. |
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Date: 6/23/2003 6:40:00 AM
From Authorid: 2030
"The ovewhelming majority of inmates in our prison system belong to one religion or another" Wow Thinker! Really? The majority of People in this Country are members of one religion or another. The majority of Men ARE Males. What do the above facts mean? Absolutely nothing. |
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Date: 6/23/2003 7:18:00 AM
From Authorid: 62085
Thinker, i did the search thingie, and i can tell you that true christians never went to war and killed people. Nowhere in the Bible did God's people kill simply because of a different religion. They did defend theirselves many times. Do you see any Christian armies killing right now? I believe the whole point of this post was that the right of Christians to assemble and pray in this country, is being threatened. For some reason i feel that you had a bad experience in life in which you Blame the Lord, instead of others and/or self. Truely sorry & hope u heal... |
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Date: 6/23/2003 7:33:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
62085 - True Christians? What do you define as true christians?. The women and childern that Moses killed were actually killed in self-defence? Poor Moses, he was sure lucky those ruthless women and children didn't kill him. |
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Date: 6/23/2003 10:52:00 AM
From Authorid: 13974
This brings to mind a quote "There are no athiests in foxholes, many of them are musilm." |
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Date: 6/23/2003 10:55:00 AM
From Authorid: 13974
62085, I may not remember my scriptures, but didn't God turn his back on Saul for not killing somone he was told to kill? LAter he would be replaced by David as king. I believe that is correct. But hey, christians only faught in self defense, right. This is only a small example. |
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Date: 6/23/2003 12:41:00 PM
From Authorid: 62085
sometimes self-defense is destroying the enemy first, and thats a quote from Gen. Sun` author of the "Art of War". Do u think God's people do not have a right to defend theirselves? And 62118, if u are referring to the land of cannan, yes he did. Do you know why? Or are u 1 of those peeps who pick out a phrase and use it, without researching? The land of Cannan was a land of a giant race, the nephilim, a satanic bloodline, hybrids of union between women and a fallen angel. God did not want his people to mix with them in any form or manner. I would elaborate more, but not sure u would listen. |
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Date: 6/23/2003 12:48:00 PM
From Authorid: 62085
Bcar you are correct, everyone follows a religion, which is-- a set of beliefs or values,lifestyle, and belief or non belief in a superior being/creator, "Even if u do not choose, u still have made a choice." that was a lyric from the song `freewill by Rush, a satanicly influenced band, even they knew that whether u choose God or not, its still a choice. This is my last post on this forum, all i can say is dont pick out a phrase in the Bible and wield it against your beliefs or for them, find the meaning , then truth prevails. |
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Date: 6/23/2003 8:22:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12862
Yes, 62085 *NightmareRulez*, the whole point of this post was that the right of Christians to assemble and pray in this country. That is what my friend was saying. Christians are feeling threatened because we can't pray where we want to. |
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Date: 6/23/2003 8:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
Sassy Girl, what about everyone's else's right to pray. Can a Muslim lay out his mat in the middle of a parking lot or store an pray to Mecca when it is time to pray? I had a secluded hillside overlooking a lake where I use to go and pray and reflect, but I cannot do it now because it has become private land. No one is guaranteed the right to openly pray when and where they so feel like it. Once again, your rights only go so far as they do not offend or deny others of their rights. |
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Date: 6/24/2003 9:17:00 AM
From Authorid: 13974
62085, didn't you read the part where I said I wasn't sure if I remembered it? Or do you just want to show how right you are, and how stupid I am. So you are saying it was justifiable homicide? I'll remember that next time I see a black man draged behind a truck because a white man didn't want his daughter mixing with them. And yes, I have read the art of war. It is an excelent piece. Does that make it a book to live by, and we define our lives and the difference between right and wrong by a book written by a chinese general who died 2500 years ago? I don't think so, by the way, since you didnt seem to notice when you studied the art of war so scholarly (as I am sure you did, or you would not have attacked my memory of biblical texts) the defining principle of that book is "The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting." Now, back to the point of this entire debate. You can pray whenever you like, why do you say you cannot? |
Date: 6/24/2003 9:41:00 AM
From Authorid: 57225
..we are not a christian country, sorry to burst your bubble. Although you may claim that the majority of our population and our churches happens to be christian, we are founded under freedom, which just so happens to include freedom of RELIGION. If someone wants to say a prayer before a football game, then thats great, whatever works, but it shouldnt be a group thing where everyone is supposed to stop what they're doing and pray. nobody is taking your rights away by not believing in god or by wanting people to respect what this country is founded under.  |
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Date: 6/24/2003 12:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 22080
so if christians pray anywhere they want i guess muslims can to or whatever other religon or...*gasp* satanist also, that meanst they could do it in your church, oh no |
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Date: 6/24/2003 3:51:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 12862
WarriorSpirt, yes I believe that even Muslins have a right to pray where they want to and that goes for anyone one else. I just don't think anyone should be prevented from from praying to *THEIR GOD*. What I was saying was that, in some places *WE* aren't allowed to pray. If someone wants to pray out loud they should be allowed to. Schools, games, etc... Where ever it may be or Who ever it is. Be you Christian, Muslin, Buddhist, Jewish, Wiccian, ... It's the ones who don't believe or are atheists that my friend was talking about. |
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Date: 6/24/2003 5:21:00 PM
From Authorid: 54987
But you can pray out loud. What stops you? You are mistaken in your belief that you cannot pray out loud. Most people pray quietyly anyway. i find that people who want to say it out loud are not doing from a genuine desire to pray, but to make a point to other people. They just want to be heard praying. Those prayers are meaningless. It's what's inside your heart - that is where your true intention is. |
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Date: 6/24/2003 7:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 57225
Koolade you have an excellent point! |
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Date: 6/25/2003 5:24:00 PM
From Authorid: 54987
Thankyou Skola. I just wish I'd paid more attention to my typos. |
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Date: 6/26/2003 12:52:00 PM
From Authorid: 13974
Sassy, the point is you can pray any time you like, and I know of no athiests that want to take that away. The issue is just because you want to pray, doesn't mean you have the right to interfeer witht the rights of others. You can't just stand up in the middle of a class and disrupt everyone else. But you can pray to yourself, or even asked to be dismissed from class. Players can pray before a game, but the school cannot sanction it. Simple as that. |
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