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Date: 5/30/2003 8:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 28848
Oh boy...I don't even know what to say to this AZ. I have a lot of the same questions that you have. It's hard for me to understand why things are the way they are and why people have to suffer so much hurt in this life.  |
Date: 5/30/2003 8:03:00 PM
From Authorid: 46069
I would like to say "population control" as heartless as that sounds... but its not that all those people deserved to die... God can't protect from everything.... you pray and ask for guidance , that he will lead you in the right direction and save you from evil.... that is a case of being in the wrong place and the wrong time....there are evil forces that can outway the good.... those people chose to go to that club... often we use my mother in law as an example....when she was 50 years old.. she had a paralysing stroke and since then has had about 5 more major one and 2 heart attacks... and still God has not taken her.... the pondering question.. is why is God making her suffer like this... why would he do this to her.... She was/is a very good God loving christian woman... went to church 3 times a week.... But it is not that God did this to her.... She did this to herself... She didnt take care of herself... Its so easy to Blame God.. of course noone wants to accept blame for themselves.... and here i go rambling ... why i am herein this post i dont know.. cause i dont do debates  |
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Date: 5/30/2003 8:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 28848
oops didn't realize this was a debate... |
Date: 5/30/2003 8:11:00 PM
From Authorid: 53900
Well I can only say one thing even though I cannot see God and I cannot prove to you that God exists in my heart I know he does...it is a matter of faith. You have faith in many things sometimes your faith is taken advatage of and sometimes your faith is rewarded. I mean you cannot see the wind but you can feel it...you cannot see love but you feel it. I think some things we are just not meant to understand. And as for those people who died in a fire I went through teh same thing 10 years ago my heice and nephew both died in a house fire...trust me I wondered why it happened and how God could take two innocent children what did we do to deserve that? What I believe is that we did not do anything we are not promised a tomorrow and my neice and nephew are in Heaven now in a much better place then we are. They will never have to suffer heartbreak they will never have to grow old and live with chronic pain they will never know sorrow or betrayel(sp?) they will forever live as they were here on earth innocent and young and protected.  |
Date: 5/30/2003 8:11:00 PM
From Authorid: 47699
Az, I think that most make the mistake of taking the Bible too literally. I would very much like your input on my latest post. It isn't exactly about what you've said here but it's similar and I think you wouldn't be wasting your time if you looked at it. http://www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm342451.html  |
Date: 5/30/2003 8:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 28946
Az, I don't have the answers but wished I did. I believe in God and nothing will change that. I have had hot coffee thrown in my face, a cigarette burned into my cheek and a few other mean things done to me because I believed in Him and would not stop. I've seen alot of horrible things but none personally what you described, but still a really brutal way of life. I even went thru a period where I questioned God and thought He was a cruel God to allow such atrocities to occur. Then this is what I personally found to suit me. God is goodness and love. (we love our children but yet we cannot protect them all the time from pediphiles, fires, drive bys vehicle accidents, etc. even though we try.) God tries to protect us too yet gives us choices. Satan, Beazulbub, Devil, the Dark prince, whatever name it is, is pure evil. He is what causes the horrible and vile things to happen. Remember in the Bible when Satan temps Jesus and takes him on the mountain and then tells him, "all that you see before you, I will give you Jesus, IF you get down on your knees ans worship me." Jesus refused. Why? Because the Kingdom of Heaven is so much more beautiful than anything. Now Satan couldn't offer the Earth if it wasn't his and that's why we have so many woes here. Something else. If you read "The Chronicles Of Narnia" by C.S. Lewis, I think there are 8 books, it will explain it all. They might be childrens books but they are also religious and give such a great job in understanding just what it could be all about. Az, I believe in God for if I didn't, I would be dead. Honest.  |
Date: 5/30/2003 8:17:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 27046
Sk8r Why can't he? God is almighty! Some 300 people CHOSE to go to that club. Not all of them died, could it be that those that are alive put more in the collection plate on Sunday? I mean seriously how does he pick and choose who suffers? I can use George Burns as an example. The man smoked cigars and drank whiskey everyday of his life. He died an old man and had a full life.  |
Date: 5/30/2003 8:18:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 27046
Thanks AO... |
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Date: 5/30/2003 8:18:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 27046
Frank, I read your post, I don't have a comment. |
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Date: 5/30/2003 8:19:00 PM
From Authorid: 46069
like i said.. i am not a debator... that is just my belief... |
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Date: 5/30/2003 8:22:00 PM
From Authorid: 28946
Sk8r, I think maybe why your mother in law is going through alot of suffering is perhaps it is a lesson that must be taught to someone connected with her. There is a reason and not just because she didn't take care of herself and got sick. And nobody might ever know the reasons why some people linger in pain for years and others not. But she must have alot of broad shoulders to be given such trials. |
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Date: 5/30/2003 8:22:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 27046
Jessica how do you know that Heaven is a much better place? We have no idea what Heaven is like, we only know the alternative. Heaven being a great place is a concept in our minds because the alternative is a horrible way to spend eternity. They will never have to suffer those things, I agree, but did they deserve to suffer the way they did? |
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Date: 5/30/2003 8:28:00 PM
From Authorid: 28946
When my brother died, I was in mental torment worrying about the tremendous pain he felt and I prayed. I prayed alot. I believe I got my answer in a semi dream. I was on the back of his motor cycle reliving the accident. We saw the truck, felt the impact but no pain and then he flew thru the air and out of this world. It seemed to real not to have happened and yet to crazy for it to have occured. Whatever happened, I need to believe that when we are finally dying, there is no finial tremendous pain. God takes that or Jesus does, but anyway, I have been on life support twice myself and the pain is gone. |
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Date: 5/30/2003 8:28:00 PM
From Authorid: 47699
There are two sides and two ways to look at everything. There can be no light without darkness. If there was no darkness, you could never appreciate the light. It might sound demented, but in a way, I think that pain, loss and suffering are blessing. They help to understand the good things all the more. There's no need for us to feel sorry for or grief for those who die unexpectedly or at young ages. It happens for a reason. Perhaps they already accomplished all that they were placed upon this Earth to do. I'll tell you this. If they were right with the Lord, they're doing a heck of a lot better than any of us are doing right now. |
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Date: 5/30/2003 8:28:00 PM
From Authorid: 53900
well I try not to believe they suffered...I feel in my heart God took their souls before they could feel any pain and as for how I know it is a better place well I guess I dont for sure I just feel in my heart it is like I said I cant see the wind but I know it is there...I cannot see Heaven but in my heart I know it is there and we are promised eternal life there as for if it is any better then hell or life on Earth I dont think it could be any worse. |
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Date: 5/30/2003 8:30:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 27046
Penny I am not asking you to change your belief and it's wonderful that you have found goodness and love in God. But the goodness and love in God for many is not as noticeable as the suffering and cruelty. |
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Date: 5/30/2003 8:35:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 27046
Penny I am sorry but it doesn't make sense to me the suffering and pain that is felt before death, or at other points in life. What has a newborn baby done when they are born to a crack mother and they suffer the painful withdrawl. Is that supposed to be physical punishment for the baby to teach the mother an emotional lesson as she watches her baby suffer that is if she isn't too strung out to care? I cannot imagine a being without the ability yet to know or think of sin being made to suffer for the life lesson of another. |
Date: 5/30/2003 8:36:00 PM
From Authorid: 13283
I hear what you are saying . When something bad happens they say it was God's will (plan ) . When something good happens they say it was a miracle . Either way, He has his butt covered and its rather convenient , if you ask me . I dont understand how He works , but I do believe in Him . You need to let God in your heart if you want to get really close to Him and maybe understand Him better . Razzy aka  |
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Date: 5/30/2003 8:38:00 PM
From Authorid: 28946
I know you aren't Hon. There are alot of hurtings and horriblre mean things going on to people in the world and it has always been going on. Just reading in the Bible will attest to that. Look at the brotherly love with Joseph and his brothers, the argument between Esau and Jacob, Cain and Able. The wantoness of BathSheba and Jezabel. Saul, David, The lions eating the Christians. John The Baptist being Beheaded. The Bible is full of atocities as is the world today. I don't know Az, the whys of it all. |
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Date: 5/30/2003 8:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 28946
Sorry about the typos. |
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Date: 5/30/2003 8:41:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 27046
Frank maybe deaths should be blessings, but in reality they aren't. Deaths destroy lives and devestates people. How can you say they are doing a heck of a lot a better? When no one reallys knows what is beyond this life, we rely on what we have been told exists? |
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Date: 5/30/2003 8:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 47699
Az, maybe some people deserve better than to have to be condemned to struggle in this cruel world. Babies that die are blessed to be spared that. They'll never know any of the joys here but they'll have much more joy elsewhere. Those who suffer are blessed for they will appreciate what comes after death much more. Am I making any sense to you here? Can you see it from that perspective for a moment. By the way, this is a very interesting post. |
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Date: 5/30/2003 8:43:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 27046
It all comes down to what makes you better able to deal with it in the end Jessica. I'm glad that your belief helps you... |
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Date: 5/30/2003 8:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 47699
I just saw your previous comment so I'll go ahead and comment now. If there is no God and no afterlife, I don't guess any of it matters. If what I said before is true, it speaks for itself. If not, the babies will never have to worry or struggle with anything and the those who are in great pain will be relieved. Either way, death is a blessing. |
Date: 5/30/2003 8:51:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
If death is a blessing Frank then why do you keep living?  |
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Date: 5/30/2003 8:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 47699
Base, at the risk of sounding like Mr. Spock, to do otherwise would be illogical. Yeah, there's Hell here in this life but I'm having some fun, too. |
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Date: 5/30/2003 8:58:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 27046
Frank then what was the purpose of giving them life in the first place? |
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Date: 5/30/2003 9:00:00 PM
From Authorid: 47699
Az, we are here to gain experience however small or vast it may be. As with everything else, you work with what you have. |
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Date: 5/30/2003 9:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
You're having some fun Frank, but what's illogical about someone ending their life early, to end the pain and suffering. Someone who's not getting enjoyment out of life. What's the point of continuing on when death is a blessing and you can end all the pain in a second. |
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Date: 5/30/2003 9:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 47699
Base, if you go back to the subject of God, it doesn't work that way. There is no easy way out. As I said, you're here to learn and gain experience. So am I and so are we all. If you take the easy way out because you don't like it, you haven't experienced what you were supposed to. Since that's the case, you have to come right back and start over again. I don't know about you but I think I'll stick this one out for the duration. Nobody ever said that life was always easy, fun or pretty. No, I'll stick it out and see what the future holds for me. |
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Date: 5/30/2003 9:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 28946
Hmmmmm, that's a thought I've been thinking on Base. |
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Date: 5/30/2003 9:11:00 PM
From Authorid: 47699
Base, what I said to you only applies if everything or even anything about God is true. If there isn't, you'd be out of a whole lot of misery and you'd be out nothing. Nobody can prove that God isn't real, either, and maybe all that I said before is right. If that's the case, it would be like taking one step forward and two steps back to opt out of life on before your time. I don't know about you but I can tough it out and I certainly don't want to have to ever do all of this over again. I'll take my chances. |
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Date: 5/30/2003 9:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
But by your reasoning Frank, I can ask God for forfiveness for what I do and I go to heaven, if there is no God, I'm still out the pain, so either way it would be a win win situation if death is a blessing. |
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Date: 5/30/2003 9:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
this is off the topic of the post anyway, sorry Az |
Date: 5/30/2003 9:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 57653
I can't argue anything you have to say here. Since I'm pagan, not christian I'm trying to look at this as someone who believes in god and I'm basing it on what I DO know about god from when I was christian (I am NO expert). If god is ominpotent then he would have been able to save all those people...saying he can't watch all souls at once suggests he ISN'T omnipotent. Oops missed some? That doesn't work for me. To say that it could be that these people had accomplished all they had to in life is just a cop out to me. How could the parent of a young child had accomplished everything in life? I have known young children who have lost their parents...It is a HUGE loss. That parent had MUCH left to accomplish. And how can it be a blessing to be torn from your husband/wife, children and all your other loved ones?  |
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Date: 5/30/2003 9:26:00 PM
From Authorid: 47699
Folks, I'll lay it on the line for you now. It's very simple. Either you believe in God and all of the rest or you don't. If you do, that's good and you'll be rewarded if you live and die right. If you don't, you will never know it or even be able to care. |
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Date: 5/30/2003 9:33:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
I'm glad you wrote this, so here are some of my random thoughts. Praying for yourself has a placebo effect. Praying for the strength of will or the confidence to overcome some personal problem may well work, but not because God hears your prayer and decides to up your confidence level on his divine control panel. It's an indirect way of building self-confidence. Praying for change in others is bit more complex. I have had people tell me that they will pray for me to see the light, to recognise the error of my ways etc. They pray to God asking him to directly intervene and alter a person's life. They effectively want God to temporarily remove someone's free will (which theists always hold to be so sacred). They are saying "I believe that your lifestyle needs correcting. There is something wrong with you. I shall ask my god to fix you and make you a better person. You should thank me for it." This is one of the reasons that atheists become offended when people say that they will pray for them. Praying for something to happen is similar. If you pray, asking for some wish to be granted, not for money, fame or cars, but maybe to meet someone, or for some decision to be made in your favour, you are asking God to intervene and remove someone's free will, forcing their life to become interwoven with yours when it otherwise might not have been. When people pray for something to happen, the way in which they interpret the results can be quite interesting. As an example, I knew a woman who a strong belief in her God, and prayed to him often. She told me that when she's driving around town she might pray to him to help her find a parking-space, and he nearly always provides her with this small blessing (you can probably think of many similar examples yourself). Apart from the obvious question of what the heck is God doing sorting out parking spaces when children are starving to death in Africa, it seems pretty obvious that if you drive around town long enough you are certain to find a space eventually. If your god does not come up with the goods, you just tell yourself "It was not meant to be", or "God must have some other plan for me". People count the hits and forget the misses, or even count a miss as a different type of hit, God always answers your prayers, even when it looks like he doesn't. So one person lives and survives a horrific fire and 100 die, what is that called Again? God's will? I call it being in the wrong place at the wrong time.  |
Date: 5/30/2003 9:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 52155
When God created man, He gave us an awesome gift of free will, meaning that we can do what we want, when we want, how we want, and even think what we want. Sometimes this free will causes problems not only in our life, but in others lives as well, but God still allows us to have it. In that fire in Rhode Island, the promoters excercised their free will to allow the pryotechnics to happen even though they weren't approved by the Fire Dept. Why did it happen? I don't know. Why did so many die? I don't know. But I don't need to know. It is sad, but it is up to us to be prepared in our hearts when it happens. God tells us all that our earthly lives are only temporary, and could feasibly end at any time. He wants us all to live with him in heaven, but he on't force us to make that choice. It is up to each person to make that for themselves.  |
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Date: 5/30/2003 10:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
Living a good life, being accountable for yourself, being responsible for our own actions, having a conscience about wrongdoing, regardless of WHATEVER you worship is the basis of all religions. Depending on God to "save you" after you butcher someone with a pick axe is asinine. Regardless of which God one believes in, (and there are quite a few), will He or She REALLY look over atrocies committed against others, such as the infamous "death row" prisoners who become "saved" and JUST KNOW they are forgiven, would any God really be so vain as to look over murder, mutilation, torture and rape just to have one of these "sudden converts" hang on his shirt tail? Logic says no. I WOULD never take anything, belief or religion from someone else, ever. I rarely argue about the "right to believe in your doorknob" if you so desire, but my opinion of someone who "blames Satan" for the root of all evil, and then a prayer to God asking for salvation" will strike out all the killing, torture, rape, is something I cannot fathom. I just can't. |
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Date: 5/30/2003 10:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
One person's prayers strike out the "free will" of another Eddo. Have you ever read some things people ask God for? |
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Date: 5/30/2003 10:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 53900
If I went through life believeing that every single person who has died is just rotting in the ground and they suffered and I have suffered through everything we have I would not have teh strength to carry on. You asked why do those people who die have to suffer like they do well I say without suffering there would be no compassion. These questions you raised are questions which have been raised for centuries. In my opinion we are not meant to understand. If we understood every single thing that went on what would be the point of life? |
Date: 5/30/2003 10:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 42792
Religion, to me, is a crutch that people use to justify what they don't know and what they refuse to accept.  |
Date: 5/30/2003 10:20:00 PM
From Authorid: 51979
AZ, good luck trying to figure out God's will. If He wanted you to know, He would of told you. It is impossible to know His divine will, and if you read the bible it tells you how much a better place Heaven is. Jesus speaks of it as getting many crowns, and we are hailing God. Also He is preparing a place for us in Heaven, how could a place where God is be a bad place at all? Those people in the club died for reasons only God knows. That man survived by God's grace. The people died to show us something, God always reveals truths through tribulations, it is His way of maturing us as believers, it always works for the greater good.  |
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Date: 5/30/2003 10:22:00 PM
From Authorid: 51979
You speak of God being a wrathful God, "not one you would like to go to with open arms." WHAT? Are you only reading the old testament. The "old law". Him sending his only Son to die a horrible death for us is the biggest message of all to how much he loves us. The old testament God and the new testament God are the same God, it is just that in the old sin was not completly dealt with yet. Before He created us He had the plan of putting His son here to save us, why did He create us then you ask, well that is all a part of His will. |
Date: 5/30/2003 10:22:00 PM
From Authorid: 37900
Although you've raised many issues that have kept thinkers busy for years, your main question seems to be, "Why did one survive when the rest perished?" I doubt my comments will be extraordinary, but I offer them for your consideration. 1) Some would immediately conclude that because only one survived or that the rest died, God is not a God of love, if He exists. You don't seem to subscribe to that idea. 2) If you are considering the possibility that God exists, what assumptions are you making about how God should behave? For example, does God owe everyone a long life that is free from any suffering or disaster? If He does, He's doing a poor job. If He doesn't, why do people suffer such horrible fates while others escape? 3) I don't believe God owes anyone anything. It seems to me that, most of the time, people suffer because of their own, or, in this case, someone else's incompetence. There are many times, however, when tragedy "just happens." I am reluctant to say it's God's will, yet, some misfortunes might be. Though I wonder about such matters, I am content to let God be God. Simplistic? Perhaps, but a philosophy without difficult elements is shallow and without lasting merit.  |
Date: 5/30/2003 10:43:00 PM
From Authorid: 30743
God is a Father. My human dad taught me not to steal, not to lie, and not to curse. Why would he do that? Why did he teach me those things? His explanation of why he teaches me those things is because he does not want me to put myself in a dangerous situation that he could not help me out of. Now, God the Father gave us free will to believe in Him or not. He gave us a guide (a book to GUIDE us) out of harms way with suggestions for how to live. My human father told me that I would go to jail should I not abide by the law. My human father spanked me and sent me to bed without dinner, and sometimes, he even put me on probation (grounded). He says it was for my own good. Now God the Father puts us through things (can be seen the same way as a human Father grounding a child, spanking, etc on a larger or smaller scale). Regardless of what I go through, regardless of the bad things I do, my human Father tells me he loves me and that he'll never stop loving me. God the Father says the same thing, He will love me if ONLY I acknowledge that His son gave his life for me. Now imagine I turn my back on my human father, spit in his face, stomp on his name, trash his home, etc. Imagine what my human father would do. He would most likely turn his back on me because I turned my back on him and what he had taught me. The point? We all make choices, we all have to live with them. God gave us free will, it is your choice to believe or not, but don't cry about facing the consequences of those choices when you do meet God face to face, because I tell you right now, He warned you. Father's are a lot alike. They love but they also discipline. They love but they also have a point to where that love is killed by you... Think about that. Yes, he created you, just as your human father provided the seed to create you physically. But does that mean he is REQUIRED to love you when you do not love Him, do not respect Him at all? Is He required to love you when you spit in His eye? I don't think so. I don't preach, I'm telling it like it is. He tells us what will happen. You have the choice. If you reject Him now, be ready to face the consequence as you did when you were a child and spilled something on the sofa and compounded the offense by lying, a worse sin. If you had just admitted you spilled something on the sofa, it was an accident instead of lying, you would probably have been hugged and told it was all right. When you do something your human Father has told you not to do, such as lie, you end up spitting in his eye. As for explaining a hundred people dying? I don't have to as I don't question God's will. I don't question why my father fired an employee with three children to support, I just assume that my human father had a darn good reason for doing it, and leave it at that. Trust and Faith are two good words, and you must find whether you have them in your heart on your own. No one will be able to convince you of anything or explain anything...  |
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Date: 5/30/2003 10:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 30743
Okay one other thing, I made a mistake in my previous reply. God does LOVE you regardless whether you accept Him or not. He grants you Heaven IF you acknowledge His son died for you. Now I don't think that's such a huge gigantic thing to acknowledge. Wouldn't you want someone to acknowledge it if your son gave his life to save another? Wouldn't YOU want to shout it to the rooftops and have EVERYONE acknowledge your son's sacrifice? |
Date: 5/30/2003 10:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 3125
Az, God placed people on this earth and gave them a choice. Just like it is the duty of a child to obey his parent, it is also the duty of man to obey their parent(God). I have no answer as to why God decided to make humans to begin with and especially knowing that many will refuse to do as He says. I suppose it's the same as when parents decide to have children while realizing that they could turn out to be the worst kind of criminals but yet having a love and a hope that they will adhere to their benefical teachings. As for what heaven is like. It is a place where those who enter will never have to worry about a thief, a murderer, a cheat or a liar bringing any harm to them. It is a place where those who enter will totally understand the where's, why's and how's. It is a place where there are no limitations put on knowledge,etc, and where there will be no more death and destruction. Any who enters will be happy and safe in a place that is far too complicated for the human mind to comprehend it all.  |
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Date: 5/30/2003 10:58:00 PM
From Authorid: 3125
As for God's love, righteousness, wrath and punishment. God hates sin. Sin is evil. If a child does evil, we as parents refuse to put up with it, so does God. Evil doing brings about punishment in the laws of our land. Evil doing brings about a punishment from God. Also, God's wrath does not mean He is angry with an unjust anger. Let's suppose a serial killer is sentenced to death. The law makers are showing their wrath at the evil acts committed by this serial killer when they put him to death. In the same way, God shows His wrath when He pronounces judgment upon those who do evil. Why would anyone expect God who has no unrighteousness whatsoever to put up with evil doers? God tells us what the end will be of any who does evil. He tells us that He refuses to allow any evil doers to enter His home. If people decide to use their free will and go against what God says, then no one but themselves are to blame...As for God saving that one in the a RI fire. If this man was doing as God has ask of us, then yes, God may have saved him. We do not know for sure if this man was saved by an act of God or if he was saved by chance. If this man was truly a Christian then I would strongly believe that God had a hand in saving him. |
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Date: 5/30/2003 11:02:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
MonkeyLuvr your comment is why I originally left the Church because of the mindset that you have. I find it disgusting that you place conditions on love as do most Christians or religious people. As a father, there is nothing in this world that would ever make me turn my back on my child, nothing. I will love him until the day I die. To claim to be a good person and a loving person in one sentence and then turn around and place conditions on that love makes no sense to me. |
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Date: 5/30/2003 11:04:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
I question everything, anything less would not be using the brain that "GOD" gave me. As for acceptance, why would I believe that Karla Faye Tucker and I will be sharing a bunk in Heaven just because she "believed" after she used a pick axe on two people? There is no logic to that argument of "blind faith" without question. Otherwise how would one come to know "truth" for themselves? Just because culture and society dictates it does not mean it is true. I have very dear Hindu friends who I respect very highly, but do I share their religion or belief, NO. Would I dare to say they "spit in the eye" of another's God simply because they have a different faith? Actually I would never worry about the conseqence that another might face after death, simply because I don't "believe" exactly the same way, judging others and "fearing" for their consequences puts one in the position of being a judge. Telling someone they have a "choice" is not being responsible, who knows what the true choices are? I haven't seen any clear cut answers in 48 years, until I do, I will continue to question, use logic, be my own person and rely on being accountable for my actions in life against others as well as having decent morals and being a responsible person. That makes sense to me if I were to accept any religion or faith. Not blind trust, but having a conscience and being accountable for my own actions. |
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Date: 5/30/2003 11:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 3125
Base, Because God says that He refuses to put up with evil doers, does this mean that He doesn't love? Because God created a world which is only a temporary place, does this mean He does not love? God loves righteousness but hates evil. Does this mean that He does not love? God does love but there will come a time when He will close the door to all evil. As I said before, I do not know why God created humans knowing that many will end up in a place of torture. This is one of those things we will most likely understand after we die. However, we are adults who knows the difference between good and evil. If we chose to ignore God's pleas to do good, then we know that God is true to His Word and we will not enter His home. |
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Date: 5/30/2003 11:26:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
Rusure just because someone doesn't believe in God does not make them evil by definition. Many churches tell parents that they must turn their backs on a child when that child is disfellowshiped or excommunicated. That child has done nothing wrong except question what it was taught. I have a brain to think and to question and learn, if I did not do those things then I wouldn't need the brain I have. Any religion or God that tells me I must turn my back on my child for their beliefs I will not follow. My child is part of me, dna tells me that, dna does not prove that I am a part of God. If you choose to believe in God that is your choice and I'm glad that it works for you. I cannot accept a God who will let someone into "heaven" after killing someone simply because he believes in God over somewho who lives their life morally, helps people in need, and shows love and compassion. There is just no way I can justify that in my mind. |
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Date: 5/30/2003 11:48:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
Base, I agree with you, I have acted or trusted on "gut instinct" most of my life, even if I had never learned to read, any book, including the Bible, My inside gut feeling would have been my guide. One can "preach" all day and all night, but WHO will listen or CARE if the message belies the meaning? Life on this earth while being held in a prison camp awaiting the gas ovens isn't aabout God's will or "a reason that God would only understand" that is the power that a MAN has sought and is guilty of. Why would any God justify human suffering based on that reasoning? Why? WHY? Those gas ovens and the experiments done by Nazi's were horrible, read up on it. I still remember a televised trial of those "experiments" done on human persons way back as a child. I won't ever forget it. Suffering makes no sense, none whatsoever. I suffer unmentional horrible atrocities just so "you" can learn from it. That comes from God? I don't belive that. |
Date: 5/31/2003 12:36:00 AM
From Authorid: 53689
I believe in God, but I also believe in complete free will. Meaning, yes it was pure science that saved him. I really don't believe that human actions are controled by God or the Devil...rather that they are controled by the individual in question. No answer that you get from this can prove or disprove God's existence....there is a reason it is called "a person's faith"  |
Date: 5/31/2003 4:09:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
God enjoys his fair share of evil too  |
Date: 5/31/2003 5:25:00 AM
From Authorid: 10915
I say imperfection and that death is an inevitable reality to us all whether it is by natural means or not.  |
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Date: 5/31/2003 6:44:00 AM
From Authorid: 42792
How does anyone know that "God" is all of things that you say he is? Did he come visit and of you and thoroughly explain this? How do any of you know that "God", as you perceive him to be, really is? |
Date: 5/31/2003 7:46:00 AM
From Authorid: 51635
This is biggest problem I have with God, He took so many people out of my life, my brother when he was 17, my father when he was 50, a friend of mine who only 22...Other people in my life suffered so much before they died, I really don't think it was nesesary...why did my sister have to lose 18, yes 18 pregnancies before having my nephew, why did she have to suffer such loss and such pain, I don't see a loving forgiving God when I think about these things...Sometimes all I can see is a God with a blind eye...Should my mother have had to endure burrying a child, a husband, and grand children? My mother is a good kind Christian person who helps those less fortunate then she is, why put her through such pain and anguish? I can't fathom the reason... All I have left to say is that there better be a God up there, because I have questions that I want answeres to when I get there...  |
Date: 5/31/2003 7:49:00 AM
From Authorid: 47218
I have a two word philosophy for all this, but I'm afraid that USM would not allow to print it here. To put it less succinctly-- bad things happen. That's life. I've always had a problem with the whole few people surviving a disaster as a miracle from God philosophy-- because, if you believe that a few people were saved because of God's good will, then you also have to accept that God decided that a few hundred other people deserved to die horrible deaths, which is completely screwed up. No, I can't believe that. Especially when experience proves that good, innocent people have bad things happen to them just as often as the most depraved individuals. Life just doesn't work that way-- there isn't a supreme being handing out rewards to people who follow all the things on his checklist and smiting the ones who don't. I see it this way-- if there is a Supreme Being, then He has put us forth in the world to do things of our own free will and we're pretty much on our own from there. And the whole point isn't for everyone to live peacefully, free of suffering, because this isn't heaven. Suffering has it's purpose in the world, and, for me, that purpose is self-discovery. Because, as we all discover at some point, the most adverse circumstances are the test of what kind of person you are. Or, as Dostoevsky put it, suffering leads to redemption. I believe you're dealt a certain hand in life, and your task is to play it as best you can before your time is up.  |
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Date: 5/31/2003 8:42:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 27046
Frank that makes little sense. We are here to gain knowledge? WHAT knowledge, WHAT purpose, we have NO CLUE. |
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Date: 5/31/2003 8:43:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 27046
Frank are you saying that if we end our life early that reincarnation exists for those that commit suicide? |
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Date: 5/31/2003 8:47:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 27046
Silverfire, thanks for those thoughts, that is where the confusion comes in. |
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Date: 5/31/2003 8:59:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 27046
Frank THAT is the problem. You say that if we believe in God and live life right we will be rewarded, if not you will never know it or be able to care. You are assuming that the belief in God and living life right will result in a reward. If we don't know and won't be able to care, what is the original point anyway? |
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Date: 5/31/2003 9:00:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 27046
Base, no worries religion is a varying topic..LOL |
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Date: 5/31/2003 9:08:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 27046
Shadow, excellent reply. |
Date: 5/31/2003 9:32:00 AM
From Authorid: 57225
good post, i have nothing to say b/c i know there are no explanations, i would only be arguing from an atheists point of view.  |
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Date: 5/31/2003 9:59:00 AM
From Authorid: 3125
Base..Since God created people and He tells us what good and evil is, then if a person says they are not evil, they are deciding what good and evil is from their own perspective. No matter who a person is, he has done evil in the sight of God and even if he is a Christian he will continue to sin. It is a matter of being forgiven for these evil acts we have done. God made a way for us to be forgiven but if we don't believe in God, then there is no way to have the evil forgiven. As for disfellowship.. God's Word teaches that the church is to disfellowship a person who knows right from wrong but they are guilty of doing evil acts. The reason for the disfellowship is so that evil is not brought into the church. When a person is disfellowshiped, a Christian is not to put this person out of sight and forget about him. A Christian is to try to help this person to realize the evil he is doing and if he repents he is to be accepted back into the congregation. God says that we are to love one another. He also tells us that if we bring back one who has erred from the truth that we have saved a soul from death. God does not teach that if a child does not believe in Him, that we must disown him. God says that we are to love this child and to teach this child. If anyone teaches that we are to disown a child or anyone else because they do not believe, then I would ask them to show me the teachings in God's Word to support their teachings. That teaching cannot be found in God's Word. |
Date: 5/31/2003 10:36:00 AM
From Authorid: 11341
I dont have an answer to your questions, Ive been trying to figure the answers out for some time now. Right along with everythinhappen for a reason, dont buy that one either. I think the biggest thing I question would be faith. Why do some have it and others not?  |
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Date: 5/31/2003 10:52:00 AM
From Authorid: 28946
I have a brother that is an Athiest, another that is Catholic, and three siblings that are protestants. Two are one type Nazarine and one believes in the Trinity Nazarine. Then there is me. LOL. I have my own beliefs in that there is truth to every belief system. There is no wrong way, and no one sure way to reach the brass ring. The only ones that know the truth are the dead. Personally, I cry everyday over things that are so terrible and out of my control. I ask God to help and weather it happens, at least I am comforted and I so need that. |
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Date: 5/31/2003 11:06:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 27046
Eddo, you didn't address any of the questions in the post. He wants us all to live with him in Heaven, yet we have no idea what heaven is. We have only been given an alternative and have been psyched into thinking that Heaven is this divine and wonderful place. Ya know the cream cheese commercial doesn't look all that bad, but I don't like cream cheese, there went my incentive. |
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Date: 5/31/2003 11:12:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 27046
Jessica, but do you believe that your strength came from God or were you conditioned into believing so. I have heard of people gaining strength from God to deal with issues in their life and that praying to God helped them to get through. Was it God, or was it the reserve in your own mind that because you said "God, I can't handle this, I surrender this to you." that in all actuality the spiritual feeling came from the fact that you decided yourself,...hey there is nothing I can do about this so why worry? |
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Date: 5/31/2003 11:13:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 27046
Nka, I rather much feel the same in certain situations. |
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Date: 5/31/2003 11:25:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 27046
Vital Death you have absolutely no basis for any of your comment. You ask how could a place where God is be a bad place? How you can you be so sure it's not? You have no idea because you only know DEFINATELY because it is explained what the alternative to heaven is. You have no idea what his will is, you aren't supposed to know, yet you are expected to live your life acheiving this will? You base your ideal that it is not based on a book that was written by man, not by a God himself. |
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Date: 5/31/2003 11:36:00 AM
From Authorid: 36704
I'm gonna separate my answer to you Rusure into multiple comments. |
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Date: 5/31/2003 11:36:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 27046
Alfrowl I honestly can't tell you because the message is constantly met. How is one in this world supposed to feel adequate against an almighty God. I am speaking of your second part. What assumptions do I make about how God should behave? I have a hard time dealing with people that are quick to jump and say that God was watching over this ONE person or this handful of people while THOUSANDS perished at the "so-called" same hands. I have trouble dealing with a person that can serve God's will their entire life and still suffer horribly while another is blessed with passing away peacefully in their sleep. It's a two sided coin. God was kind and wonderful for sparing Timmy, well if that is kind and wonderful then the other side must be mean and cruel. Then there is total reversal when someone suffers from something such as cancer. A statement would be God took them from the pain and misery, well why that ONE person, why not all of those that suffer through a horrible long drawn out illness. Is he mean or is he horrible? |
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Date: 5/31/2003 11:37:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 27046
That should have been is he mean or is he loving? I have too many outside distractions to get to the rest of the replies now. I will return later. |
Date: 5/31/2003 11:37:00 AM
From Authorid: 36704
As for where in the bible it condones turning your back on your children or family, "I tell you the truth," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age ... and in the age to come, eternal life." (Mark 10 9-30) God doesn't place much importance on children anyway according to the bible: "Anyone who attacks his father or his mother must be put to death.""Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death." (Exodus 21:17) If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. ... Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. (Deuteronomy 21:18-21) and my all time favorite: O daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us -- he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks. (Psalm 137 -9) Yes, people beat those babies heads against the rocks. So, God condones child abuse. |
Date: 5/31/2003 11:39:00 AM
From Authorid: 36704
It's ok for women to be treated as if they are beneath men, women and men are not equals according to God: Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. (Colossians 3:18). As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. (1 Corinthians 14:33-35) Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you. (Genesis 3:16) Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. (Ephesians 52-24) I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. (1 Timothy 2 -14) God doesn't seem to think too much of women. |
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Date: 5/31/2003 11:40:00 AM
From Authorid: 36704
The punishment for rape is only that the man must marry the woman: If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are both discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. (Deuteronomy 228-29) So who punishes the rapists, society, not God. |
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Date: 5/31/2003 11:40:00 AM
From Authorid: 36704
Polygamy is condoned: Then Jacob put his children and his wives on camels. (Genesis 31:17) Esau took his wives and sons and daughters... (Genesis 36:6) Jerub-Baal ... had seventy sons of his own, for he had many wives (Judges 89-30) After he left Hebron, David took more concubines and wives in Jerusalem,... (2 Samuel 5:13) King Solomon ... had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines,... (1 Kings 11:1-3) Concubines? So adultery is ok also. Who made polygamy a crime? Society, not God. |
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Date: 5/31/2003 11:41:00 AM
From Authorid: 36704
Slavery is condoned: That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. (Luke 12:47) Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; ... (Colossians 32) All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, ... (1 Timothy 6) Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. (Ephesians 6:5-6) If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property." (Exodus 210-21) You can beat them you just can't kill them, aww thanks God for caring so much about them. Once again society stepped in and outlawed slavery. |
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Date: 5/31/2003 11:44:00 AM
From Authorid: 36704
The only thing in the Bible I can see that God speaks out against is homosexuality and a non belief in him: a man shall not lie with another man as he would a woman, it is an abomination. So then according to the Bible who are evil other than gays and people who don't believe in God. Rape is ok, incest is obviously ok since they practiced it all the time. Adultery is ok. Child abuse is ok. Making women subservient is ok. Thou shall not kill. Thou shall not kill who? Christian men and everyone else it's ok to kill? Where are all these upstanding moral lessons? According to your bible and your God you can kill me: Anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord must be put to death. (Leviticus 24:16) If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" ..., do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, ... (Deuteronomy 13:10. See also 1 Kings 21:10) So what's stopping you from doing it? Your God is telling you to kill me, he is commanding it of you. Is that what the choice comes down to, if I want to believe in God then I must accept every atrocity committed by man as long as it's not a homosexual act? If that's my two choices, I think I'll burn in the fiery pits of hell rather then follow this Christian God and his bible. |
Date: 5/31/2003 2:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Hold up there, Base; wait for me! Much has been said here that I agree with. Base, Shadowghost, for the most part. I am a good, moral and upstanding woman, who takes care of her own business; who harms no one, and gives to those less fortunate....freely and with unconditional love. If a so-called "loving" father (GOD) would consider me an "evil" "sinner" and condemn me to ETERNAL fire......forever, while truly evil, REAL evil monsters ....can go to paradise and sit beside their victims, then I wish never to have anything to do with such a dispicable and jealous "god". The entire story makes not ONE bit of sense; and if something does not make sense, I have no business believing it, and not one single solitary person CAN change that UNLESS they can present SOMETHING that makes sense. IF such a "god" demands that I believe FIRST, before the proof/evidence/sense, then he is nothing but a big fat bully. *I can just hear it now: there is evidence, you-just-don't-wanna-see* Ooookaaay....whatever.  |
Date: 5/31/2003 4:58:00 PM
From Authorid: 34814
This is one good debate and I agree AMEN  |
Date: 5/31/2003 6:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 52140
Gods will is different for each person. First, there are biblical wills for EVERYONE. Like somewhere it says "It is God's will that you do not commit sexual immorality" (all of which can be found explicitly in Leviticus 18, I think). In addition to obeying God's laws and loving Him FIRST as the supreme God in your life, not money, or other 'gods'. Then, there are "individual" wills. Actually, "individual" is not a good word. It still coincides with the "Every person's" will. But one of the main points of being a Christian is proclaiming the gospel. It is how you go about doing it that is the "individual" will. I think the way that it happens is that "God 'invites' us to work with him in a place of need" or God might put a burden on someone's heart for a certain group of people or whatever. was that confusing?  |
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Date: 5/31/2003 6:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 3125
Base..I will also separate my answers to you. Mark 109-30. And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. Jesus was just talking to a rich man who refuse to become a Christian because he would not let go of some of his wealth to help the poor. He let the love of money stop him. Jesus then told His disciples that if anyone has left something or someone so that they could become a Christian that they would receive a hundredfold. Jesus is not saying that we should leave all these things but He is saying not to let anyone or anything stand in the way of becoming a Christian. Also, Jesus did not mention infants here, He said 'children'. Who's to say that Jesus is not referring to the grown children? Jesus sure doesn't condone leaving small helpless children. Also, Many times especially in the O.T. they are called children up to the age of around 20 years old. |
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Date: 5/31/2003 6:52:00 PM
From Authorid: 3125
As to your statement "God doesn't place much importance on children anyway according to the bible" In the O.T. God dealt directly with these people. Rules of righteousness were enforced to a greater degree in the old days. God brought down immediate punishments for breaking His laws. "Anyone who attacks his father or his mother must be put to death." This does not mean little children. These are children who are of age and knows not to attack their parents. How many grown children attack their parents nowdays and actually kill them? Today the punishment is either prison or the death penalty, depending on the age of the grown child. In the old days, the punishment was stoning the grown children(teens,etc) for committing such crimes. Again, Exodus 21:17 is not talking about a small child who does not know better. This is talking about grown children who rebels against their parents. Many times today we see teens who swear at their parents and uses the vulgariest language. Their parents are more afraid of them than visa versa. They are out of hand and it is very obvious that the parents have no control over them. The teens have no fear of what the parents will do to them. They are not afraid to tell their parents where to get off. When I was growing up, if I would have shown such disrespect for my parents in such a way as many teens and grown children do today, I would have been severely punished. I would definitely had been afraid to talk to my parents as many do today. In the old days, showing such a terrible disrespect and rebellion for parents was totally forbidden. This was seen in all walks of life whether idolators or followers of God. Many non believers killed their grown children by stoning, burning, and beheading, etc. |
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Date: 5/31/2003 6:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 52140
Ok, as for your part about the "angry, mean" God. I just wanna say Psalm 112: " 1Praise the LORD! Happy are those who fear the LORD. Yes, happy are those who delight in doing what he commands." I don't mean fear as in "Bully who steals lunch money" fear, but the fear as in respectful fear. God only is "wrathful" when people do not repent of their sins. Romans 1:18 says that "the wrath of God is sent from against all the ungodly". This wrath is orge (orgay) it means "anger exhibited in punishment, hence used for punishment itself". I also read that it (orge) is a wrath that God doesn't wanna do, but he has to because of our rebelion against Him laws and our stubborn hearts, you should read the book of Romans. Its a good book. |
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Date: 5/31/2003 7:03:00 PM
From Authorid: 52140
Also, about the club fire, I would say that stuff like that happens and some survive and others don't. We are never promised tomorrow, only God knows the number of our days. We don't have until forever to decide whether we want eternity with Him in heaven. You have to make the choice today, because, you might not have tomorrow. Also, suffering is a part of life. It happens whether we want it to or not, it sucks, but... thats life. God can work through that suffering. He can also use it to help someone else going through that situation. Like woman who was molested by her cousins as a child and then she might use that testimony to help other girls going through the same thing. Also, in my own life, my mom married a man who is an alcoholic. She's currently getting a divorce, but I can use this testimony to my own children and teens who have the same situation with alcoholic parents, to help them forgive and love. I think its kinda narrow minded and selfish to think only of yourself in a suffering situation. I think that if you have it bad, someone else has it 10 times harder. Another reason is all the people you can help with the testimony when you get out of that, cuz suffering lasts for only a season. No one wants to suffer, but it happens. Also, you have to think if your suffering was brought on by your own sins or choices. Like if you have sex and get AIDS and you die ten years later, thats a consequence of having sex. Ya know, sometimes we bring things on ourselves or they just happen to test us. BUT I dont think you'd be the person you are today w/o your sufferings. They strengthen us and help us for other things. |
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Date: 5/31/2003 7:04:00 PM
From Authorid: 52140
Release me, in response your first comment about why things happen, it may be 40 years down the road, but you will eventually know why something happened. |
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Date: 5/31/2003 7:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 3125
As for Babylon being destroyed. God had warned Babylon many times that it would be destroyed. The inhabitants were very cruel to those who followed God. They mocked, killed, burned, robbed, etc those who were God's people. God had prophesied that Babylon would be destroyed because of their cruel and idolatrous ways. David tells the inhabitants of Babylon in Psalms 137-9 that God will be happy (without mercy) take revenge out on those who have been so cruel to His followers. God will destroy them without mercy. Once God brings down His judgment upon a city, He destroys it and all that is in it. (Ex. Sodom and Gomorrah, and in the days of Noah when He destroyed the earth by water.) To slay all when a city was sacked, both male and female, old and young, was a common practice in ancient times whether it was destroyed by armies or by an act of God. Homer describes this in words almost similar to those of David when he wrote. " My heroes slain, my bridal bed o'erturned; My daughters ravished, and my city burned. My bleeding infants dashed against the floor; These I have yet to see; perhaps yet more." God takes no pleasure in destroying people but He expects goodness and mercy from them. God demands obedience just as a parent demands obedience (or they should) from their children. I see a very sad world today because many parents are very bad examples for the children they are attempting to raise. Many children of today have no strong, loving examples to follow. They are neglected, abused, ignored, passed off onto grandparents, murdered, etc, etc. If parents would be responsible and teach their children to be obedient then this world would be a better place and would have many more happier teens. There would defintely be a lot less crime. I will continue answering your other comments as I find the time. |
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Date: 5/31/2003 7:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 52140
I guess the government is not different. You have the choice to obey the law or go to jail, its the same thing. |
Date: 5/31/2003 7:15:00 PM
From Authorid: 52140
Thinker "evil monsters" do not go to heaven. I think that only a REAL relationship with Jesus is the only way to heaven. There are lots of people during the inquisition who were vile evil... murderors (I would like to say more) who thought they were doing God's will, but they were NOT Christian or human. I do not believe that someone could treat the victims like that and be human. Most of the people weren't given trials and if they were it was unfair. I think though that our good works are as "dirty rags to God" (Isaiah something). And that God only honors those who love His son. Im still working on your evidence. I have a whole summer to work on it! Too bad Im not in Biology anymore, I'd probably make an 100 average with all the research I hope to be doing  |
Date: 5/31/2003 7:29:00 PM
From Authorid: 16849
David Berkowitz (according to reliable web sites) has recently become a Christian. He is going to heaven. If he is not an "evil monster", then no one on earth is. For those who do not know, David Berkowitz is the Son of Sam killer. His crimes aren't exactly G-rated, so I'll let you research him yourself.  |
Date: 5/31/2003 7:33:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
It sure shows that Base has no idea or understanding of scripture, LOL.  |
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Date: 5/31/2003 7:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
here's a good post about this subject and it was posted by a young person at USM >> http://www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm311746.html << |
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Date: 5/31/2003 8:27:00 PM
From Authorid: 36704
Thank you for your comments Rusure. I agree that many children today have no strong loving examples and lack discipline. While the bible may have some moral lessons it also has a lot of negative ones. The bible itself is a gruesome book. While I may interpret it and see it different then you, I'm happy for you that it brings you peace and comfort. I was raised Christian and only recently became a non believer. There are too many questions left unanswered for me and right now faith is not enough for me to go on. I need concrete proof in some form for myself and no one seems to be able to offer that. I appreciate you taking the time to reply in depth to my comments and doing it in a non condescending way. Too bad more Christians don't respond to non believers how you do, instead of how King Caspian does. By the way KC, you're setting a poor example for your God and religion. Maybe you should take the comment you left to me and apply it to yourself if that was the best you could come up with. |
Date: 5/31/2003 9:28:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
Wow! AZ, this is one of the best debates I have ever seen here at USM.......  |
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Date: 5/31/2003 10:22:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
One last, well maybe, last reply. I did a similar post called "Bizarre Reasoning" which asked many of the same questions that you have asked here. No one had an answer that worked for me. When people die, believers, often say that God has chosen to take them into his care, He has decided that their time has come, to return to the realm of His heavenly Love. Well, maybe. But when these people die a long, painful, lingering death from something terrible like cancer, or some other slow-working terminal disease, do you ever wonder why God chose that particular method to return them to his loving bosom? |
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Date: 5/31/2003 10:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 53900
You know I honestly never thought about....I did alot of praying during that time asking god why it happened how he could take them from us so soon...my nephew was only 15 months old and my neices were 3 and 4 1/2. It was the worst thing I think I ever experienced in my life. I visited them alot at the cemetary and after a few months I accepted it and realized that they are in a better place. I cannot say it was God who made me realize this but when I prayed and talked to God about it I felt better. I did ask him to take the pain away though but you know it still hurts when I think about it but the difference is now I can deal with the hurt. I know that it sounds as though I made it through all this on my own but I have no doubt that had I no faith and spitual beliefs I would not have gotten through that. They were more then just my neices and nephew I helped raise them my sister used to take off for days at a time and I took care of them. Anyhow I am getting off the subject here....I guess the best answer I can come up with is that I felt I could not handle the trials I was going through I asked for the strength to make it through and he gave me the strength I needed. |
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Date: 5/31/2003 11:29:00 PM
From Authorid: 15319
Vital Death, the Bible clearly tells us that God is forever unchanging, therefore he is STILL the same wrathful angry God NOW as he was THEN. Or perhaps..the Bible erred?  |
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Date: 6/1/2003 1:02:00 AM
From Authorid: 3125
TDA..Really..If people fail to see that God was a just God in His wrath in the ancient days when He dealt with people directly and He demanded obedience to His righteousness, I wonder what many will think when God destroys this universe and all that is in it in the future? In the O.T. God never brought down destruction upon good but always those who were continually doing evil. If people would heed God's message and attempt to do good, then God would not have to bring destructive judgments upon people whatsoever. Some people seems to always blame God because He hates evil instead of placing the blame on the people who do evil. |
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Date: 6/1/2003 3:39:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
God himself does evil, many christians say oh that means something else and basically make up their own definition of words, since when does the word evil mean anything other than evil? |
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Date: 6/1/2003 4:08:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
Rusure - I wonder what will happen when this end of the universe fails to come about and people are left waiting again. |
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Date: 6/1/2003 12:12:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
o.k......now, I am going to add something, my Mother, a good, kind, loving Woman, a truly good person, died a horrible, disfiguring death from Cancer. Now, my Mom was not a smoker. She ate well, drank 8 glasses of water a day, and exorcised. She died from oral & lymph node Cancers. Now, my Mother did not believe in "Jesus-as-the-only-Son-of-God-died-for-our-sins". My Mother believed in "Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You" (the Golden Rule). She also believed in the Ten Commandments. It ended there. She did not know if God was a "He/She/It/Spirit". What she did believe was she would know all the answers when she died. She also did not believe in hell, or Satan. Now, I REFUSE to believe, that my poor Mother was tortured for her "unbelief", when we have the Charles Manson's of the world who do NOT suffer. (or even my ex-husband, who abused every drug he could, and is STILL walking around). What about my Goddess? or God? The difference is: I don't believe they GIVE PEOPLE CANCER FOR DISBELIEF. I don't believe my Goddess & God are "My Way Or The Highway", as I view the Ancient Jewish God, YWAH. I am sorry, I cannot be an apologist for the Christian God, as I once did. Let's face it, there is a differnce between "rightous", and "brutal". Am I calling the Christan God brutal? Look at the Old Testament & you tell me. |
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Date: 6/1/2003 7:46:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
if I sound angry, it is probably because for 20 years I went around saying "..it's a mystery", Or, "Let go & let God". The thing is, at the time I said them. I REALLY believed them. That "there was a lesson for everyone in what happened". Pah!!!! Is that why my Grandmother, is dying the "Long Goodbye" of Alzheimers, when people like John Wayne Gacy, got/get to treasure their sick memories of their crimes, till they take their last breath????? Oh, let me guess, because Grandma was a "Daughter of The Eastern Star" & Gramps was a Freemason. And we know how Godless THEY are! <----sarcasm. This is an excellent question, and I think it bears deeper understanding & review. You cannot have it both ways, either God is THE SAME OT & NT, or He changed & mellowed. But not really, ask 6 million Jews & 3 million non-Jews, maybe they did not pray hard enough. ~JMO~ |
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Date: 6/1/2003 7:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Applause! ^^^^^ Applause for LSG! ^^^^ |
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Date: 6/1/2003 8:54:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
I second that applause for LSG. And a thought about the warnings that are thrown about the "world ending". Almost everyone who belives, believes taht it will happen in their lifetimes. Ego, ego, ego. I'm so special, I'm going to be around to witness the glory of Jesus' Second Coming! I can almost see the gleam in their eye and hear the glee in their voice. Is THAT wonderful or what? They can't wait for the world to "end" and get their reward, if one really believes that, then how and why is that so exciting, almost titalating, I think to some. You get to watch others suffer eternal hellfire and damnation because they "believed" differently? And that is heaven? I would much rather rot in the ground then because how can there be heaven while some suffer eternally just because they "believed" wrongly. Never mind they lived a good, moral and just life. How utterly preposterous. |
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Date: 6/1/2003 9:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Yeah, Shadowghost, if people like MY sister, who is always talking about the end when Jesus comes back and how SHE "just knows" she'll witness it; if people like her are going to be in heaven, I sure wouldn't want to go there. I created a beautiful bedroom for my mother, and mom loves her home I worked years to create for her. Today, mom told me my sis walked into this bedroom, and said "I feel evil in this room. This is Catherine's room. I sure wouldn't want anything that that satan made or gave to me". My mom ask her why in the world would she say such an awful thing, but of course Sis didn't answer, just went on out to the door on her way to: Church. |
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Date: 6/1/2003 9:51:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
I don't understand it Thinker. How can a rational thinking person believe that any God, one who has been praised for being forgiving, loving, all knowing, not know the heart of these over zealous people. They honestly DO believe that UNLESS you and I think, and believe, plus a multitude of others of different faiths and cultures DO not believe exactly as they do, the world will end and yeah! YEAH! Yeah! YOU are gonna get just what you deserved. That kind of thinking is demented, preverse and bears witness for no one except the most lost ones of all. It is those who have no compassion, no understanding of others, no respect, who are lost. I believe that and feel that inside. To me that is truth and MY own salvation. I could never endure any eternity with any God who let those of similar morals and hearts compassion suffer endlessly. It is unbearable and repulsive to even think of. Much less throw out as a mindless warning. |
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Date: 6/1/2003 10:17:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 27046
Jesus Freak, it's not fear as in bullying? Why is it the defination of everyday words change when they are used in the Bible? Most people that really have trouble with the whole "God" issue will tell you that their dislike is about a fearful God. Fear creates hate, we know this to be true and have lived through many situations where fear has led to hate and violence. I cannot see the loving side of God because whenever God was discussed and when I began really looking into religion, I was taught to fear God. Not respect FEAR. So these people who spoke to me about their God read the bible wrong and didn't really understand it's meaning. You apparently have read it correctly and understand it's meaning and are now going to show me a loving God. I'm going to go with my first teaching, and the literal meanings of the words used. Can you smell fear? It REEKS. |
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Date: 6/1/2003 10:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
Is that the best you can do Base. Let me get this straight, I'm suppose to temper what I say with a bunch of love and mush inorder to set the example YOU want of what YOU think is my faith and religion? Or what You expect? So I am not allowed to speak my mind also with respect to you and others? Your remarks showed, in my opion, a lack of knowledge with respect to scripture and because I said that, I'm setting a "bad example"?? You try to muzzle christians with your remarks and try to make me feel bad for speaking the truth...nice try.... |
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Date: 6/1/2003 11:00:00 PM
From Authorid: 37900
Thanks for your response, Azairyia. I think the assumptions people make about God are extremely important. I've read many of the replies here; many are understandably concerned about the prolonged suffering and loss of their loved ones. Sometimes, though, the grieving and broken-heartedness introduces the idea that God could have prevented these tragedies, and that therefore, He should have. If God has the ability to prevent tragedy, and He doesn't, he is malicious. {Thinker once posted a quote by the philosopher Epictecus[?] that explains this idea better. She can help us out, here.] This is the point where people inject assumptions about God, perhaps not realizing that humans have the ability to prevent pain and suffering in special cases and choose not to...for a higher and more beneficial purpose. An example of this is a parent that takes a young child to the pediatrician to receive immunizations against the dreaded diseases of diphtheria, rubella and mumps. The parent knows the child will experience pain, though it will be temporary. The child will not understand the purpose for the pain until it is much older and may wonder why it must endure such suffering. Yet, the parent does not intervene, but keeps the appointment; the parent may even have to hold the child while the injection is given. Should we therefore conclude that the parent is an abuser and unfit to be responsible for the child? I don't think so. I freely admit I don't understand the purposes for the tragedies of life, but it seems to me that though pain is inevitable, misery is optional. Horrible events such as the fire in Rhode Island are not good, but I believe that good can come from such tragedies, even as ultimate good can come from an injection that cannot be explained [to the child] and yet creates pain and suffering. IMO, we are on thin ice philosophically and theologically if we venture much beyond that analogy. |
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Date: 6/2/2003 5:14:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not ABLE? Then he is not Omnipotent (all powerful). Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then why is there so much evil in the world? Is he NEITHER willing or able? Then why call him God? ==EPICURUS. The shameless expression of malevolence by God such as this: "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me". <~~~THAT IS a commandment, a blatant LICENCE to hate and or destroy, for the believers and followers of such a "god"! Believers and followers of this bible god INSIST that the nonbelievers "hate" their god. HOW can anyone hate that someone or that "GOD" that they don't even believe exist in the first place!?? It is impossible to hate anything or anyone if there is no reason TO hate, and there is no reason if the HATED (god) doesn't even exist at that! |
Date: 6/2/2003 8:04:00 AM
From Authorid: 58427
I dont think that anyone knows the answer to this.I do agree with Frank though. Good post. ~*Peaches*~  |
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Date: 6/2/2003 8:32:00 AM
From Authorid: 52140
AZ, sry it took me so long to get back to your debate. I did a strong's hebrew word search based on the word "fear" in the context of Psalm 112 becuase it is the one Im most familiar with. This is the things I learned. It means: 1) to fear, revere, be afraid; a) (Qal); 1) to fear, be afraid; 2) to stand in awe of, be awed; 3) to fear, reverence, honour, respect; b) (Niphal); 1) to be fearful, be dreadful, be feared; 2) to cause astonishment and awe, be held in awe; 3) to inspire reverence or godly fear or awe; c) (Piel) to make afraid, terrify; 2) (TWOT) to shoot, pour; As you can see, it means to have a godly fear. Not something like a woman who fears a battering husband, but as a child who has a loving family who disaplines him when he does wrong. This child should have a "fear" of his parents because they will disapline him when he does wrong, but they still love him. Also, yeah, fear does lead to hate. I struggle with it daily because me ex-stepfather abused my mom verbally and, before she she married him, he abused her some physically. He's given her black eyes and stuff like that! THANK GOD she and I have been delivered from this situation. I struggle with not hating my step father, who I had terror of, and I hated him. I won't deny it, but everyday God is helping me to forgive him and love him BECAUSE he does not know what he's doing. He is an alcoholic and only cares where his next beer's coming from. God was there for me even when I was rebelling by doing stuff I had no business doing (for g-rated sakes, I can't say). He's delivered my mom and I from the mistake that SHE made. If its not loving to deliver someone from an abusive marriage, I dunno what is. Do a biblical word search on the 'fear of God' and show me what you find. It should be interesting if you find something different to my study. |
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Date: 6/2/2003 8:50:00 AM
From Authorid: 52140
Thinker, in response to your lase comment, you need to keep the verse in the context for the REASON WHY He is a jealous God. Exodus 20:1-6 "Then God instructed the people as follows: "I am the LORD your God, who rescued you from slavery in Egypt. "Do not worship any other gods besides me. "Do not make idols of any kind, whether in the shape of birds or animals or fish. You must never worship or bow down to them, for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God who will not share your affection with any other god! I do not leave unpunished the sins of those who hate me, but I punish the children for the sins of their parents to the third and fourth generations. But I lavish my love on those who love me and obey my commands, even for a thousand generations." He is only a jealous God because He knows He is the ONLY God (im not bashing anyone's religion, but I am monotheistic). God punishes the children because their children act the same way the parents do. I think however, that if the children are the opposite of their parents and love God and obey His commands, He will, "lavish <His> love on those who love <Him> and obey <His> commands, even for a thousand generations." He's an awesome God, thinker. I hope that He will reveal Himself to you and you will see Him. The only reason there is evil is because humans ALLOW it to happen. Yes sometimes God does intervene, but there's also the concept of free will (which I personally do not like). Yeah, there's alot of bad things happening that I wish wouldn't happen, like murdering of innocent people in China and the middle east, unfair wars, murder, rape, suicide, abortion, everything like that! God can stop it. It doesn't mean that it'll never go away, but sometimes, things happen. One day though there will be a glory in Heaven where all who have committed evils according to God's law will not be there. As the beattitudes (sp) say, Matthew 5, " 7God blesses those who are merciful, for they will be shown mercy. 8God blesses those whose hearts are pure, for they will see God. 9God blesses those who work for peace, for they will be called the children of God." This world is evil and dying away, But God's kingdom is eternal. |
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Date: 6/2/2003 11:46:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 27046
Jesus Freak, you totally misunderstood my comment. The definition of fear changes when used in relation to God. ANY other time the word fear would be self explanatory, only Christians change the meaning of the word. Awe and reverence pertains to God, any other use of that word in a sentence would indicate to be afraid of...scared..not in awe of. |
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Date: 6/2/2003 12:07:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 27046
My questions were really simple and I knew that once again this would come down to throwing out Bible scripture that doesn't mean a thing. It's about looking at the overall picture exactly as written in the post. A person can throw out scripture after scripture and it truly means nothing. Regardless of the individual legistics of the Bible...the overall message is clear...serve God.....go to Heaven...don't serve God.....go to Hell. OT & NT means nothing, all that shows is the manipulations of abuse when it comes to the "Good Book." It is supposed to be "God's word", and it has been dictated and changed to suit the changing times. It's not a wonder that this happened..if we started picking off people the way the Bible suggested, it is highly doubtful the human race would even exist. |
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Date: 6/2/2003 12:12:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 27046
Shadow I loved your comment where you talked about the world's end and those that will suffer eternal damnation. Excellent comment.. |
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Date: 6/2/2003 1:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 3125
Thinker..Yes..God can stop evil dead in it's tracks, but it is not His desire nor plan to do so at this time. God does have a plan to destroy all evil, all sufferings, death and crime, but not yet. If God would intervene and stop all crime and suffering while we yet live, then He would be interfering with our free will. God could have stopped Adam and Eve right from the beginning but He allowed them to be human and let them choose what they would do. It seems that some people expects God to turn earth into heaven. God says He will not do that, but He will allow people to choose what they will do. |
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Date: 6/2/2003 1:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 3125
Yes..God is a jealous God in the sense that He refuses to give credit to whom credit is not due. He will not share His glory of being the one and only creator of this world and all that is in it. He will not look the other way and allow what He created to worship other gods, to claim they were created by other gods. To serve manmade images, etc. I am sure that not many people would like it either if one of their children denied that they gave them birth and they claimed someone else as their parent. Not all jealousy is a bad thing. There is such a thing as a righteous jealousy. Let's say that a spouse was found cheating and the other spouse was jealous. That spouse belonged to another and had no right being unfaithful to their spouse. Regardless, This is a righteous jealousy. |
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Date: 6/2/2003 1:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 3125
As for hating God..Let's say a child would go against everything that you taught him and he would bad mouth you at ever turn, saying that you have no right to tell him what to do nor to tell him what is right or wrong. This child would lie, cheat, steal, and even murder, etc knowing all the while that you were strongly against such things..Would you say that this child hates what you stand for? If a child obeys you and show that they want to please you, they wouldn't have to say "I love you" for you to know that they love you. If they go against everything that you stood for, they wouldn't have to say "I hate you" for you to know that they hate you.. When God says "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. He is saying that when fathers teach their children to be immoral that the immoral acts are usually taught to their children. Today shows a perfect example of this. In the 1900's committing adultery was looked down on in the worst way. Today it is practically a favorite past time. Having irresponsible sexual relationships is an in thing today. The children walk in the steps of their fathers. God is displeased with those who bestow upon others what belongs only to Him. |
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Date: 6/2/2003 1:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 3125
Yes..God is a jealous God in the sense that He refuses to give credit to whom credit is not due. He will not share His glory of being the one and only creator of this world and all that is in it. He will not look the other way and allow what He created to worship other gods, to claim they were created by other gods. To serve manmade images, etc. I am sure that not many people would like it either if one of their children denied that they gave them birth and they claimed someone else as their parent. Not all jealousy is a bad thing. There is such a thing as a righteous jealousy. Let's say that a spouse was found cheating and the other spouse was jealous. That spouse belonged to another and had no right being unfaithful to their spouse. Regardless, This is a righteous jealousy. |
Date: 6/2/2003 1:58:00 PM
From Authorid: 3125
Oops!! Someone IMed me while I was sending my comments and the last one was sent twice..*Bows head in shame!*  |
Date: 6/2/2003 2:00:00 PM
From Authorid: 12600
This is something that has bothered me for a LONG time about "God"...and really surfaced again recently when the lady in Texas took her kids out in the yard and bashed their heads in with a rock. Now, this incident really got to me. All I could think was if I were God I would've zapped her out of existence before she had a chance to get anywhere near those kids...but, alas, I am not this wonderful, merciful God that so many seem so adamant about defending. NO, what does this loving, all-knowing, all-powerful God decide to do? Let this woman exercise her free will. But what about the children???? I guess they were exercising their free will when they trusted this woman and followed her out into the yard *rolls eyes*. It would be like a glass window separating my bedroom from that of my kids...and me just sitting there, WATCHING, as someone came in, picked up a rock, and walked over to where they were, and killing them. And I sit there and do absolutely NOTHING!! Now, at the very least, according to "imperfect" MANmade standards that would make me an accessory to murder. What kind of God would just sit back and watch? Oh, I know the loving and merciful kind. Yeah, okay. So, evil people can exercise their free will at the expense of the innocent? That is warped!! And regarding the deaths of the innocent children, infants, and livestock (good grief, what sin could an animal possibly commit?) in the OT...well I don't care to understand or especially advocate the reasons why ANY god would think that it is ok to punish the innocent for the deeds of the guilty. That is just beyond comprehension. Also, even if my children did disobey me, be they 8 or 18, I would never stone them, regardless of whether an almighty God condoned it!!! How anyone can justify that is beyond me. Someone brought up the book of Romans and the issue of freewill; one should read Romans 9:14-23 and get a accurate sense of what free will is according to the word...  |
Date: 6/2/2003 2:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 54111
I must say AZ you got another debate going. And that is not a bad thing. My opinion is this. There is explaination why he did that, but I wouldn't know the answer. I believe in Jesus. He has his reasons and most of the time the reason is not known. Too much has happened with me not to believe him, as others have their reasons not to. But good luck finding your answer, if you are really looking for one.  |
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Date: 6/2/2003 2:28:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Rusure, Your reply is the *popular** response to the dilemma of Epicurus fails to demonstrate the existence of God. You merely make pronouncements about somone's idea.....fantasy...about what such a Deity MIGHT be like were he/she/it exist. The dilemma of Epicurus is not an attack on a Deity, but an attack on a god-claim. This particular dilemma shows that the god claim in question, that a Deity exists who is SIMULTANEOUSLY powerful and good, is absurd. IF we could awaken any of the victims of the Holocaust, victims of the WTC collapse, (or any victims throughout the ages that were burned alive, stoned to death, or tortured, just because they rejected the claims that God is a merciful god and will answer their prayers), I doubt that they would agree that the suffering they endured could be justified by this GAME of Loyalism played in the name of "free will". NO! If we could awaken any of these people and if it turned out that God was as you describe, and that their suffering, pain and agony and the destruction of their families, their homes, their communities, their nations, their dreams, and their lives, was arranged SOLELY so that this God could allow people to freely choose or reject him, then by golly he would be hard pressed to get any of these people to even UNDERSTAND, much less AGREE. |
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Date: 6/2/2003 2:33:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
BESIDES...the Free Will Argument says nothing of the evils or NATURAL disasters which are not caused by any sense of human "sin" or "choice". Earthquakes, tornado's, floods, meteors, famine, diseases, sheer accidents and or those by incompetent doctors, etc, etc. The dilemma of Epicurus is much older than the Christian religion, and it is just as valid today as it was when Paul tried to pretend it was not valid as he sat about to RE-INVENT the myth of Christ which existed in one form or another for even longer than the diliemma of Epicurus. |
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Date: 6/2/2003 4:11:00 PM
From Authorid: 52140
AZ, if you don't like my answer and how I was trying HELP you understand with a WORD STUDY of the Bible, forget it. If you wanna do your own word study, go ahead! Also, if I said the word trunk, I could be refering to alot of things. Elephant snout, car trunk, suitcase, tree "torso", whatever. Different words have different meanings in some cases, so you have to do a WORD STUDY to determine the ORIGINAL meaning, not one you choose to put there. |
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Date: 6/2/2003 4:21:00 PM
From Authorid: 52140
Thinker, about the suffering. You're right, natural disasters do occur. It sucks to see someone we love die or be harmed by them, but it happens. A bible teacher said it this way, "Natural disasters may be punishment for sin." Like in the case of the great flood, Pharoah refusing to release the Israelites (10 Plagues). God's ways are beyond us. He might use a natural disaster to chastise, to guide, to break some people (of sin, perhaps), to strengthen, for opportunity. But I wanna know if you would be the same person today w/o suffering? It happens and will continue to happen, but 'all things work for the good of those who love God'. Happy Day! |
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Date: 6/2/2003 4:29:00 PM
From Authorid: 3125
Thinker..Time and time again I have seen you reference to a book written by a famed philospher or well known authors. You seem to take what they have written as a gospel truth which cannot be refuted. These books were obviously written by mere men who has their own beliefs. I have read many of these books as I am an avid reader on many different subjects. I do understand where many of these people are coming from, but I do not share their beliefs. I am a firm believer that the Bible is the Word of God and I am also a firm believer that God does exist. I do not believe this out of something called blind faith. As I have said to you before..I KNOW that God is and I KNOW whom I believe in. Of course those who have never KNOWN God will be skeptical as to what I say or anyone else who claims to KNOW God. Unfortunately, I cannot prove how I know God exist but ANYONE who truly wants to find Him, He is not far away from them. I cannot neither would I even try to force anyone to seek God as He ask them to. It is solely left up to the individual. It is a sad thing that there are some who downright refuse to consider that millions of people are not as primitive and ignorant as some accuse them of being because they will boldly claim "I KNOW God is" .. I am not one who will believe anything that I am told. I cannot be convinced of anything without proof. I have found my proof beyond a shadow of a doubt and that is the only reason that I do believe. We can find God by putting away all preconceived ideas and look to find the truth of the matter in the way God has instructed us to do. Of course, If you refuse to even consider that God just might exist after all, then you nor anyone else with that attitude will not know the truth of the matter. |
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Date: 6/2/2003 4:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 3125
Thinker, Natural disasters happens because we are in an imperfect world. There is nothing totally perfect in a temporary plan. This world is in a temporary state. Of course this world has earthquakes which are caused from rock movements and many times kills thousands of people or volcano eruptions which are caused by molten rocks and escaping gases, etc. This earth is made up of rocks. God never said to us, "I place you in a perfect world" One thing I do know for sure though is that once a person makes it to heaven, there will be no more evils in any form. That is where we will find perfection in all things. |
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Date: 6/2/2003 5:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Rusure, knock it off with that old tired worn out and absurd "you can't know, or won't see, won't understand IF you're not a believer", because it don't make sense, and it DON'T fly! If this "God" created this perfect world, this perfect "Garden of Eden" and the words were "And it was good..." or something like that; then it was a perfect world created by a perfect God and all that. Ahhhhhh, BUT, just because man took a bite out of the fruit, then EVERYTHING was jacked up; EVERYTHING went down the tubes from there.....um, sure. Yeah right; and that is the dumbest story coming down the pike. The Bible believer will find ANYTHING; anything, scriptures, or words, and MAKE IT FIT; make it mean anything they WANT it to. When I go digging for information or facts, I do not give a hoot in hades WHO the author is or what his belief system is. The TRUTH stands alone; and the truth can come from anyone. I give credibility to and believe ANYONE if their statements MAKE SENSE and or can be backed up with verifiable facts. SOOOO, get out of here, please, with claiming that mere mortals, MAN, is not capable of knowing and or discerning or speaking the truth. YOU can assert until doomsday that YOU "Know" "God" wrote or "inspired" the Bible, but everything that I've ever delved into, and all the FACTS of my investigations; ALL point to the exact opposite. SO....let's agree to disagree. Believe what you want. As I've said before: You're quite welcome to your delusions but don't proclaim them as facts. |
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Date: 6/2/2003 6:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 3125
Thinker..To be honest, I was replying to your comments for the benefit of those who go beyond bitterness and refuse to let it stop them from seeking any further. You have made it clear that you are a hard core non believer and that is your right. As I said, I am not really trying to convince you of anything at all but since you do make some comments of interest, my comments may very well help someone else. |
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Date: 6/2/2003 7:19:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
I am NoT bitter; and I have Not STOPPED seeking, learning or growing, Rusure. THAT is the truth. I am not "hard core" ANYTHING. I am speaking from where I am right now, and what I know right now, what I have discovered thus far. k? |
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Date: 6/2/2003 8:38:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 27046
Jesus Freak, what was unclear about my research? Sure you can say the word trunk and have it mean a whole bunch of different things. But when you use it in a sentence, I opened the trunk of the car. It relates to a car trunk. When you say I swung on the tree trunk, it relates to a tree trunk. If I say I fear spiders, I fear rats, I fear mice, I am afraid of them. When I say I fear God, it means awe and respect? Did you understand that? ONLY when used in a sentence that pertains to God does the meanings of certain words change where in all other cases it means the same thing. I choose to point out the word fear. It only means awed as in respect when used together with God. |
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Date: 6/3/2003 8:36:00 AM
From Authorid: 52140
AZ there are several uses of the word 'fear' in the Bible. All Im saying is, if you want the right definition, you should go to a Bible concordance thing and figure out the orginal word. Blueletterbible.com is good. But you can't just say "for God so love the world He gave His only begotten son...". Well, what kind of love? Epithumia, a sexual love? Eros, a romantic love? Storge, a parent/child love? Phileo, a brotherly love? Agape, a devine, unconditional love? If you did a word search, you'd see that it meant 'agapao' (which I think is the past tense of agape) which means "1) of persons a) to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly". Just like with fear. Try the word search and see what you find. |
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Date: 6/3/2003 8:37:00 AM
From Authorid: 52140
oh yeah, Im sry for snapping at you earlier. I wasn't in a good mood. There's some stuff going on with my mom and her ex that is really bothering me. Im so sry if I said anything that hurt you. |
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Date: 6/3/2003 11:48:00 PM
From Authorid: 37900
Thanks for the quote by Epicurus, Thinker! |
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Date: 6/4/2003 12:02:00 AM
From Authorid: 37900
Azairyia, I believe I understand some of your frustration at the references to the Bible, but for many Christians, it is our main source of information regarding any questions about God. Without the Old and New Testaments, Christianity has no foundation or substance. |
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Date: 6/5/2003 1:13:00 AM
From Authorid: 15319
".If people fail to see that God was a just God in His wrath in the ancient days when He dealt with people directly and He demanded obedience to His righteousness, I wonder what many will think when God destroys this universe and all that is in it in the future?" First of all, I do believe theres a verse in the Bible where God commands a man to be stoned to death for picking up sticks on Sunday (Which contradicts where he said the Sabbath is optional). Now lets see YOU tell ME how this is just. " In the O.T. God never brought down destruction upon good but always those who were continually doing evil." You mean like the man God killed because he refused to impregnate his sister-in-law? Or the man God killed because he caught the Ark to keep it from falling over? " If people would heed God's message and attempt to do good, then God would not have to bring destructive judgments upon people whatsoever." BS.. |
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Date: 6/5/2003 5:13:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
teep, it's too bad that the defenders of this jealous, murderous, vindictive "god" can't all read your reply. *sigh* The whole "free will" thing, and portraying "God" as being "loving" and a "caring" deity simply makes NO SENSE!! Not only does it make no sense; but it is most certainly an impossibility. |
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Date: 6/8/2003 8:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
Wow! Good points, Dark Angel, ~THINKER~ there are none so blind, as those who will not see. Now, that is not directed to any one person. But to discount facts, as scripturally unsound, is just plain wrong. That is my opinion. |
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Date: 6/8/2003 9:24:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
Thinker, Those are a few of the reasons why we question and critically examine religion and faith. Some of the examples may sound petty and trivial, but that's partly the point. It affects us all in our everyday lives, even when we are doing something completely unrelated to any sort of religion whatsoever. If believers kept their religion personal and private, there would be no problem. Unfortunately, the followers of many religions believe that not only do they have access to a higher source of knowledge and morality than the rest of us, it is their duty to impose that knowledge and morality on us, apparently for our own good. Seeing no valid evidence that this knowledge has a Divine source, we recognise it as the product of humans from a time long past. We no longer need to be threatened with eternal torture or tempted by eternal bliss in order to form a civilised society (indeed, the evidence would seem to demonstrate quite the opposite). Bottom line, scaring kids to death with ancient scripture, IS THAT MORAL? JUST because YOU believe it to be so? IS YOUR WAY the only way? And how how can one prove that a decent moral life, love and compassion take a backseat to to believing only "bible scripture" that is quoted without ever any evidence or proof? Many times the quoter is over zealous, lacks compassion, and cannot seem to wait until the END comes and all disbelievers "GET THEIRS". I can't imagine that. I can't. |
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