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Date: 1/27/2003 11:19:00 PM
From Authorid: 48525
This person needs to come back when has his facts strait, but since that will never happen...  |
Date: 1/27/2003 11:28:00 PM
From Authorid: 23610
Wiccans are quick to sue? LOL Is that like Jews are cheap, blacks are thugs and criminals, Muslims are terrorists, Christians are closed minded sheep? There's a word for that...it's called bigotry. In the end....people are going to see another group of people in relative terms according to their own opinions. Hopefully there is a rational majority that doesn't buy into stereotyping.  |
Date: 1/27/2003 11:34:00 PM
From Authorid: 11721
Ok first it is an insult to Wiccans to call them Freemasons. Second it is an insult to Freemasons to call them Wiccans! I think I have heard everything now! I don't care where they think the "So mode it be" thing came from - there is nothign satanic about it (Freemasonry). My father is master of the lodge, my grandfather was a master of the lodge all my Uncles are lodge memebrs. My mother and I as well as my Grandmother and Aunts are members of the Eastern Star (a branch of the Freemasons). I am not Wiccan nor are any members of my family. I teach Sunday School. Furthermore last I had check Wiccans are not satanic - I don't know waht book you got but I really hope you didn't waste good money on it!  |
Date: 1/28/2003 12:56:00 AM
From Authorid: 35114
I agree with BWV. And as for the "taking legal action", well who does want to be labeled as a murderer and satanist for having different believes. I don't know what this is supposed to prove, but it's a lot of bull sugar.  |
Date: 1/28/2003 5:00:00 AM
From Authorid: 49076
I have a friend who is a 32nd degree Mason, and I am a practicing Wiccan, I can assure you neither has anything to do with the other. I suggest that one needs to educate themselves before writing such nonsense.  |
Date: 1/28/2003 6:35:00 AM
From Authorid: 15675
Lady Nyx said exactly what I was thinking...anyways I know 1) wiccans arent QUICK to sue. I'm a wiccan, and I know of many wiccans who have never sued over anything let alone religion! There are some people in our faith who are quick to sue, but there are bad people in EVERY religion. 2) The only association wicca and the masoniaries (forgive my spelling) have is that in the 1800's in Italy a few old 'hereditary' (i.e. witches who have long lines of being witches back to the times when witch was popular) clans of witches formed masonaries to practice their religion without persecuation. There are MANY other hereidtary traditions that never even knew what a 'masonary' was. I won't argue the roots of wicca, I did that already in a debate here on USM entitled 'wicca good or bad' check it out if u want to see my arguments. Anyways this whole post is a bunch of hate assuming. It kinda angers me. 'wiccans are quick to sue' 'wiccans were free masons' etc... both untrue!  |
| Date: 1/28/2003 11:32:00 AM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 42940 Well I knew I would get a lot of heat for this so let me start one by one. Roaryblue, the author got his onformation from http://www.witchvox.com, which after checking the link, I found to be run by witches. |
| Date: 1/28/2003 11:33:00 AM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 42940 LadyNyx: I don't approve of bigotry or sterotyping. He should not have added "some" wiccans instead of grouping them all together. |
| Date: 1/28/2003 11:38:00 AM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 42940 Brina I really don't mean to insult you or your family members. From my understanding of Freemasonry it goes deeper than the average Freemason or Mason is even aware of. And as far as the Eastern Star goes, just looking at it's logo (an upside down pentagram - Bahomet the Goat) is enough to tell me any God-Fearing Christian that this is a red flag. By the way, I checked this book out at the library. |
| Date: 1/28/2003 11:41:00 AM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 42940 Shaye 8, if you tell me what is nonsense perhaps I could go from there. As you can see this is under "conspiracy theories" which is hard to prove or disprove. All one can do is gather evidence and decide for themselves. |
| Date: 1/28/2003 11:44:00 AM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 42940 Kaja Queen Krazy: Thanks for the information, I didn't know that. I apologize for making you angry. I also believe Freemasonry has found its way into Christianity. I really don't see any hate here and if the author has said anything untrue then by all means let me know. We can hash it out and come to an agreement. At the very least agree that we disagree. |
Date: 1/28/2003 2:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 46266
I wonder how many Freemasons have bothered to really sit down, read and analyze the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion without just buying the lie that it's a Jewish plot to overthrow the world, or a fraud. That was a clever little disguise, but in Chapter 11 the author/s reveal themselves as the leaders of the Masonic Lodges, scoffing at the "stupid cattle" they place in their lodges to "throw dust in the eyes of their fellows" concerning Masonry's true aims. An open mind is not a prerequisite to reading the book, but a decent knowledge of history will convince anyone that it's no hoax. What amazes me is that Wiccans trace their roots back to the good and peaceful Druids...Salem Witches...all depends on which witch you ask....but it can't be rooted in traditional witchcraft, like the undiluted, blatantly evil brand we get in Africa - where Christianity doesn't have much of a hold so don't even think of blaming that conception on misinformation. The Masonic link makes sense to anyone who really cares to study the Wicca-Gardner and Gardner-Crowley connection. Interesting post.  |
Date: 1/28/2003 2:45:00 PM
From Authorid: 15675
Vertigos that is true. First off any wiccan claiming they practice 'acient witchcraft' is a dirty liar or very misled. The truth it honestly that witch and wicca are two different things. The difference you ask? Witch means someone who will do curses and black magick along with white magick. Witches can be any relgion. Wiccans only do white or good magick, and dont believe in bad magick, they also have a religion which follows the ways of the gods and goddesses. Wiccans are more so acient pagans mixed with acient witchcraft (the white magick aspect) they are not fully acient witches. Now true there are many hereidtary witches still left, and if a wiccan wishes to know true acient witchcraft (the good aspects) then thats where to study it. Gardner was a quack! Anyways I dont know much on freemasons I must admit, i really have no clue what there all about. But I do consder myself to be fairly knowledgeable in wicca  . Wicca is the celtic word for witch, thats why some witches/wiccans use the terms interchangably although they really shouldnt. Also another thing annoys me is the 'burning times' because sure it was a repression of the religion, but witches today like to claim it like descendants of slaves like to claim slavery if you know what I mean. It didnt happen to either this generation of witches or this generation of african americans. But still some people will do that...Anyways back on the roots of wicca. What else is there to say...? There are many old texts and such that do refer to modern wicca ideas. Honestly as I said before wicca is a combination of old witchcraft and nowadays a bit of hindusim like ideas (the gods and goddesses plus karma and the law of 3.) |
| Date: 1/28/2003 4:36:00 PM From Authorid: 56971 the free masons wanted a new world order, mygrad dad was a free mason. they talked about a lot of werid stuuf at the meetings |
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Date: 1/28/2003 7:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 11721
Well Bad Kitty I know you didn't mean to insult me but you sure did! First, you know NOTHING about Freemasonry - clearly you are not a memeber. How can you justifiy getting your infomation from a book. Furthermore it's your only source of information. Sure you can get tons more books about it but do you believe everything you read in books? How about Jack and the Beanstalk you believe that one? And I really don't appreciate being called a Satanist - you need to stop and think about thing you write before you say them - this is the second time you haven't been very nice in a post with me. And frankly I don't appreciate it. And let me tell you something about the star - it has five points each representing a lady from the bible with a lesson to teach. Our orgainzation is about service to the community and fellowship with members. If I had EVER witnessed anything satainc I would have ran the other way. Do you not think I am smart enough to recongnize it with my own eyes? Oh thats right you implied that I am a satanist and I am too stupid to recognize it. Finally to address the upside down pentagram- how much authority do you put into a police badge? It's generally respected right? Ok if no one put autority into that badge it would be nothing more than a piece of metal. So therefore a symbol is only what you make of it. There is no authority or power vested in this upside down pentagram it is simply a symbol. Wiccans are not satinists, Freemasonry is not satanist or Wiccan. You need to think with your own head and stop listening to what others think. Get the facts from both sides and make an educated decision. Think about what you have to write and say and say it in a non critisizing way. You are getting your information from someone who doesn't know perhaps you should ask someone who does know - someone who belogns to freemasonry. |
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Date: 1/28/2003 8:02:00 PM
From Authorid: 11721
PS What does that webpage have to do with anything? And I am very glad our taxpayers paid for the trash you have in your hand instead of you. That was sarcasim. |
| Date: 1/29/2003 11:37:00 AM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 42940 Brina: First of all I really don't need you to tell me what I know or where to get my information from. And, if you find yourself insulted perhaps it's because it hits a little too close to home. If the shoe fits wear it, if not cast it off. I don't have to answer to God for you. I've read books and countless web pages on this subject. So I'll pass on taking your word for it. Yes, the police department uses a star on its badge. And if you will notice their buildings are full of Masonic symbols too. That argument does nothing to help your case. And by the way, one man's trash is another man's treasure. Now I'm going to check where else I have insulted you. *** bad kitty *** |
| Date: 1/29/2003 11:43:00 AM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 42940 And by the way Brina please quote the scripture, if you can, and I will gladly look it up in the Bible. I can decide for myself what it means. |
| Date: 1/29/2003 11:45:00 AM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 42940 Hi again Tazz, thanks for your comment. It would be interesting to know what they talk about if you feel comfortable sharing it. |
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Date: 1/29/2003 7:30:00 PM
From Authorid: 11721
You have a problem with my suggestion about your books? If you knew nothing about September 11 and ran into Osama Bin Laden and he told you all about it would that be your only source of information? I am only trying to get you to realize that you aren't getting both sides of the picture. You yourself ADMIT and I quote "I also believe Freemasonry has found its way into Christianity." Hm how interesting I think you have nothing better to do with your time than to stirr up trouble. And my symbol point does hold up because I am simply using the police as an example - take wahtever symbol you would like to use. It only has power because one gives it power. What scripture would you like me to quote? If you are refering to the scripture and lessons we use in Chapter - you have done so much research on it why don't you tell me. I can not reveal waht we do in Chapter. So you go find it yourself. I have been a Christian all my life. I gladly profess to being so. It is between me and God. And I am VERY thankful you don't have to answer to him for me beacuse it's hard to tell hwat kind of LIES you would tell him. And I also believe you are not supposed to be judging people. So finally you keep your opinions about me and my religion and my Fraternity to yourself. |
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Date: 1/29/2003 7:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 15675
Bad kitty I agree with Brina on the fact you are being a bit onesided. Do you even know what wiccan symbols are? Have you ever picked up a book on the wiccan religion (written for wiccans about their religion, not by some fundamentalist televangelist?) Have you read anything from a freemason point of view? Why do you research this at all out of question? Just wondering... I dont see the whole star point here... sorry |
Date: 1/29/2003 10:02:00 PM
From Authorid: 55967
Well, I think I have a view on this subject, but I can't formulate it right now since I just had a few beers and am feeling pretty godd. (Don't want to ruin that right now). However, I'll get back to this later. BTW, what the HECK does "So mote it be" literally mean, anyway? I heard that before...~GypsyHawk~  |
Date: 1/29/2003 10:29:00 PM
From Authorid: 11721
Gypsy i really don't know what it means- thats a Mason thing and Stars and Masons are dif. Masons are only for men. It's just something they say - I know they say it after Amen in a prayer. And thanks for the back up Kaja  |
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Date: 1/29/2003 10:34:00 PM
From Authorid: 11721
oh and Bad Kitty about the insulting me part twice I had confused you with someone else I am sorry. |
| Date: 1/29/2003 10:41:00 PM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 42940 Brina: I sincerely apologize if I've hurt you in any way (or any one that I've hurt by my words). I can see that communication has seized between us. I can see that this has turned into nothing more than a cat fight. So this will be the last time to address you. The purpose of this post, and any other post I make, is not a personal attack. I feel they are situations that need to be dealt with. They are topics that I happen to run across that I find interesting. I enjoy learning yours, or any other person's opinion, regardless if they agree with me or not. It helps me to put things into perspective. That's why I will continue to post on "controversial subjects". Because I'm not afraid of the truth. I know I don't know all the answers. I can freely admit that, and it's such a relief. But, that doesn't mean that I will close my eyes to the machinations of the Devil. That doesn't mean I won't expose Satan where I find him. No, I'm not judging you, nor do I have authority to speak to God against you. I wouldn't do that. All I can do is pray for you, for me, for all of us. And that's exactly what I do every day. Because I honestly believe we all have to answer for ourselves and our own actions. So, if you honestly believe you are on the right path, if you honestly feel comfortable with who you affiliate with, it really doesn't matter what I or anyone else believes. That's between you and God. Are you with me so far? And, God promises to shed light on the darkness. We all need His light now, more than ever. I welcome it! I look forward to it! I pray for it! And if I'm headed in the wrong direction, I pray that HE redirects me. I look forward to His guidance and discipline. Because I know He diciplines those He loves. Brina I think we have more in common that we realize. Let's not fight anymore. We're just on different levels of spirtuality. *** bad kitty *** |
| Date: 1/29/2003 10:42:00 PM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 42940 Ok, Gypsy, sober up and bring it on. *** bad kitty *** |
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Date: 1/30/2003 2:15:00 AM
From Authorid: 48525
Kaja, I have to ask which of the many tradtions of Wicca it is that you practice? I ask not out of direspect to you or anyone esle, but because I too am Wiccan, and have always been taught and found in my studies that there is no "white/black" magick, nor that the term "witch" means someone practicing "black magick or curses". The term "witch" as far as I have ever seen it is "one who practices the Old Religion" or "wise one". As far as being dirty liars, while much of the Old Religion was lost over the centuries to to the supression of it's practice, much does still remain, so a Witch claiming to practice "ancient witchcraft" is neither lying nor mislead. |
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Date: 1/30/2003 6:28:00 AM
From Authorid: 15675
Roary Blue I'm just ecceltric. Okay dirty liars was overdoing i was just trying to make a point because some people sicerly believe that they are sincere witches without any blending at all yet the claim wicca. I guess to be even more technical on the subject, 'witch' is more a traditional term for a traditional witch. And that is what traditional witches practice. Wicca means witch in celtic, yet we are different for we see it as a religion, traditional witches can have any religion and yes they do practice black magick also (not requiered but they do.) I looked this up, it was a big issue in one of the debates and so I do believe this to be true. And as to badkitty I dont see what this has to do with the 'devil.' I know christians believe their way is the only way, but 1) freemasons arent a religious thing (from what I see anyways, considering there are CHRISTIAN freemasons mentioned in the replies, unless I misread!) and 2) you may not agree with a religion, but that doesnt make it 'of the devil.' To each their own I say. You havent responded to anything I've commented on! Just because a religion isnt christian doesnt make it 'evil.' or from the 'devil.' TRUE christians just stay out of everyone elses religion (i.e. dont try and go around disrpoving religions and attacking them) and just worship their god in their way. Plenty of good ones on this site, but you have seemed to join the ranks with the few who try to disprove every other religion or organization and IGNORES the facts. You dont want to be informed apparently...check out my one post about getting informed, go there, go to the sites, then come back and try this because if you were really informed you wouldnt. |
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Date: 1/30/2003 9:13:00 AM
From Authorid: 11721
Bad Kitty I do believe your right (about us having things on common) otherwise neither of us would have fought so feverishly for their side. I know there is a lot of - controversy surrounding the Freemasons and I don't understand why. But that isn't the point. The point is I want you to know that I don't have any bad feelings toward you. Tempers rise and sometimes I say things in a way I don't necessarily mean them. I too am sorry for being such a not nice person. I will try to tame my tounge for our next encounter! |
| Date: 1/30/2003 11:39:00 AM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 42940 Kaja I will be happy to respond to your issues but I cannot do it right now. I was so involved with what Brina was saying that I apparently ignored you. But now that Brina and I have called a truce, I can focus my attention on your concerns. I will read your post, and re-read what you are saying here, and respond accordingly this evening. So look for my response. *** bad kitty *** |
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Date: 1/30/2003 1:54:00 PM
From Authorid: 15675
okay bad kitty I understand, I was just wondering why i brought up some issues and you didnt respond . |
Date: 1/30/2003 11:47:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 42940
Kaja Queen Crazy: ''m going to respond from a Biblical viewpoint which is where I base my beliefs. To answer your question as to what does the Devil (I'll use the word Satan from now on) have to do all of this? I'll attempt to give you the condensed version of what I (I repeat I) believe. Satan is in direct opposition to the God of the Bible whom I worship. When Satan fell from Heaven, 1/3of the angels fell with him. Satan is fierce, hateful, angry, sneaky, and just a flat out evil being (just a few of his qualities), he likes to be worshipped and so do the fallen angels. His spirit and influence is seen in some of the most wickedest things that mankind has ever done to one another. We continue to experience these horrible things and they get more horrid and more frequent. That's why I pray for God's Kingdom to come and wipe these away by whatever means He chooses. I believe He is the only One powerful enough to put an end to it all. Satan will do anything imaginable to turn humans away from worshiping the Creator, the ONLY One worthy of worship and praise. His schemes go back as far as ancient Egypt, Greek mythology, and many other religions along the way. This includes modern religions, namely religions who worship many gods and goddesses. The Bible tells me there is no new thing under the sun (Ecc 1 ). And, it doesn't matter to Satan if a person flat out worships Him as a Satanist, or if he tricks "Christians" into worshiping him. That's why I always keep on guard. If you'd like to read my personal experience with this then read my posts titled "Is God's Name Jehovah?" and "Was Charles Taze Russell a Freemason?". Even Judiaism has been affected as Vertigos mentioned above. Go read my post "Is the Six Pointed Star Jewish or Something Else?" and "Is This Holy or Satanic?" These are just a few examples that I am aware of.Now, as far as I'm concerned witchcraft (I agree with Rory - black / white it's the same), or "the craft" as some like to call it, should be avoided. The Bible, the word of God, tells me this. I must avoid witchcraft at all costs. I can quote many Scriptures supporitng this. That's why you won't catch me reading any witchcraft books, etc. I do read some posts here from people who claim to be witches but I seldom respond. And, just like most everything else witches tend to disagree with each other. Christians are guilty of this also. That should be enough of a reason enough for us all to keep searching. Satan is the master of confusion. Regarding symbols - if they are meaningless and have no power then why do witches and the Freemasons use them? That's why when I see these symbols (and yes, I've seen many of them) a red flag goes off. Personally I don't use a cross to worship. Some Christians do. I prefer to worship in spirit and truth. I prefer to avoid idoilitry all together. Would you like a perfect example of why I believe Freemasons worship and or use idolotry in the worship of what I consider false gods? Then read up on the meaning of the Washington Monument for yourself. If you've ever been to a cemetary and notice an obleisk (Washington Monument), you'll find that a Freemason / Masons is burried there. That's one of the reasons why I believe it's more than just a harmless "men’s club". So yes, I'll continue to avoid and question these things. Call me closed minded, call me one sided, I consider it faithfulness. I will put faith and trust in Him who I belong. I'll continue to follow His guidance as best I can. As far as the Wicca religion - correct me if I'm wrong but they also practice magic. So there you have it. I hope I've adressed your comments. I've probably opened up more questions than I've answered. But at least now you now know where I'm coming from. I have to go now but I'll be back as soon as I can to hear what you have to say. *** bad kitty *** |
| Date: 1/30/2003 11:51:00 PM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 42940 And the comment "wiccans are still quick to sue" is the author's opinion. It's a logical fallacy and should read "some wiccans are still quick to sue". And rightfully so if they want to go to court and prove their case. *** bad kitty *** |
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Date: 1/31/2003 6:27:00 AM
From Authorid: 15675
Whoa I dont even know where to begin here because i disagree with almost everything said lol! I guess I'll just go in order: It seems to me you have confused something here. You started by saying that freemasons were wiccans, now you just say they wroship idol gods. Yes I know of the christian devil. I know what christians believe on him or it whatever and I respect that. You are incorrect on the devil going back to mythological times. There was one society (it started with an m and I cant remember the word right now :P) that believed in a devil. 1! And it was a small 1. The christians heard of this, they liked it, they went with it. All other mythologies didnt even mention a devil (I study all types of mythology from all over, its very interesting.) They had gods and goddesses for their realms of death but they werent evil usually. A few societies did have evil spirits (like the scandinavian and a lil greek) that bugged the gods in some way (they were giants or monsters.) but they werent really a concern of the people because the people trusted their gods. Actually look at the similarities between christianity and the greek religion. Its very close and very interesting (not all parts obviously . But there are a few main points.) Also heres a question I started thinking bout yesterday: If we are only supposed to worship one god then why did every acient society worship more then one? Human beings had to start somewhere and those first humans had to have had some contact with a god or goddess (considering though they had different names, many of the gods and goddesses are alike in ways in different societies) of some sort. So why were they wrong? Anyways lol that has no relevance here I guess . Now to witchcraft in itself. Yes I know the bible says its wrong. I wasnt born into the craft, I was born a christian (like so many others, thats why a lot of christians really dont give a hoot about their religion (its sad actually).) I read christian post when I have a chance, I know on christianity the bare basics anyways. The point Roaryblue brought up is interesting. In WICCA it wouldnt be nessacery to practice magick (the thing you claim is evil and the freemasons practice or that wiccans took from the freemasons, whichever ) because WICCA is a religion, and other then praying or going to do some kind of religious service, you wouldnt need to do magick. Now in WITCHCRAFT (yes I swear to goddess they are different, as I explained.) it WOULD be nessacery to practice magick for thats what witches do, its not a religion. On symbols I meant the star is powerless when no one sees it as magickal. Yes we use magickal symbols (by choice, wiccans also have a few other symbols like the chirstian cross to christians) but I dont think policemen or freemasons see a star as magickal. Its good you dont use the cross. Its not good magickally lol (not because of christianity, just the sign in general.) I must admit I dont know what monument you are referring to in a cemetary because I've only been to one once. I told you I really cannot argue on freemasons other then what I've read here. But I am pretty sure from that, they have little to no relationship to WICCA. Maybe they do practice witchcraft (which would leave them open to be any religion).....I'm not sure to be honest because I really havent studied freemasons in depth . Now I do think its terrible that you are going on a one sided opinion because you said witchcraft was wrong etc....yet you wont read a source from a wiccan because you say your bible says you cant. I will not lie, I have never really read the bible (parts of it when I was a christian, but not the whole dang thing lol ) but if ANY religion says you cant look at other religions then one of two things I have to say on that 1) thats just plain sad and 2)people who cant look into other peoples religions (from a person of that religions standpoint) is obviously not strong enough in faith with their own religion, because anyone who is would have nothing to fear (thats not nessacerily directed at you, but i did see someone else (a christian) give me that specific comment once lol !) If you dont wish to look into anybody elses viewpoint then maybe you shouldnt be posting or speaking upon the subject, because from a christian (usually anyone who writes a book or post) viewpoint, they usually have inaccurate information (not saying ALL, just usually...) I think christianity is a beauitful and loving religion, but then i see people who preach hell fire, and god fearing, and worst of all the 'must ELIMINATE the 'evil' (i.e. other religions and beliefs) because its just that 'evil.' Thats just plain wrong. You never mentioned in your reply the one thing I mentioned. About how a true christian is secure in their own faith, they dont need to go around preaching to others (I mean non believers there, who have other religions, not fellow christians) because they need be only concerned with like minded folk. Many religions dont have the 'covert all' factor. In fact I dont even think Islam has it! The Bahai encourage everyone to read other holy books and beliefs. I mean thats the way to go! We all have to share this earth, we might as well all get along. But I swear nothing annoys me more then someone who doesnt look at both viewpoints. I am sorry but I see this a lot in religious deabtes (not just christians, Ive seen athiest, christians, and even a pagan once!) Also you as I mention seem to have somethings mixed up. Let me help you: Witch: someone who practices magick of all kinds, but can be any religion Pagan: someone who believes in more then one diety or no diety at all Wiccan: someone who worships the old ways (gods and goddesses) and can practice magick if they wish to Satanist: from what I know on satanist (not very much) they beleieve that they are gods (correct me if im wrong anyone who knows from a satanist viewpoint what they believe) and they actually dont worship a satan, or if they do they dont believe he is evil. (i might be wrong, i cant promise  .)Oh and to one comment I forgot to address. All religions have members who disagree. In wicca sadly a lot of people are confused on their own religion (not saying RoaryBlue is, but i have seen it.) A few seem to join up for the craft, learn some terms, and then lose themselves in hierarchy and powertrips. I have read in more then one book that my terms are correct (witch, and wiccan) even wiccans and witches who are very studied on USM agreed with me. Of course as roaryblue mentioned their are different 'denominations' (to compare to christians) of wicca and so maybe a different denominatation (i.e. tradition) believes differently then me. I'm like a protestant lol (i.e. ecceltric.) I dont believe that any one trad is right. And I am highly anti gerald gardner (that man...*shudders* aint goin into it here lol...) Anyways all I am saying is you are right there, but its not the work of the devil, its the work of arrogant or uninformed humans (once again I'm not saying Roaryblue is, I'm just saying in general usually...) And if its not those people, then its just different beliefs flat out (me n roary's case lol.) And obviously with over 300 major religions, many people believe differently! |
| Date: 1/31/2003 7:06:00 PM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 42940 Kaja Queen Crazy: Actually I'm not surpised you disagree with me. I wouldn't expect anything else. However, I stand by what I just posted. I've not come to these conclusions overnight. And as I said this is MY opinion. I'm sure a lot of Bible believing Christians that disagree with me also. So why does that mean I should just stop posting because you, or anyone else around, thinks I'm wrong? What I've learned, I've learned from the Bible and through personal experiences. I'm own my own spiritual path. I've just chosen a path contrary to yours. I don't claim to know all about the Bible and Jesus. I'm sure I will have to continue to make many adjustments till the day I leave this earth. I plan on continuing to grow spiritually and to increase my knowledge. And how I choose to do that, and where I choose to get my information, has to be my choice. In addition, I never said the Bible prohibits reading information about Wicca or witchcraft. I does warn me about the dangers and how God feels about it. And that's enough of a deterrant. I've watched a program on PBS about Wicca. I thought it had pretty admirable intentions (minus the witchcraft). I also see posts here from Heather and I can see how she loves animals and protects them. I think "that's so beautiful". So there's no doubt, there are things that I just don't understand about it at this time. Maybe I will one day but it will be on my own terms and no one elses. *** bad kitty *** |
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Date: 1/31/2003 7:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 15675
Judging by your reply (please correct me if Im wrong) i think you took a little insult to my post. I'm sorry about that, I was just simply trying to say Im sick of seeing (and trust me its not just you) people being one sided or thinking they know it all (the latter doesnt apply to you) and posting things that arent fully correct. I am so sorry that I mistook what you said about reading wicca books. It is good that your not a hater on religion. I think its wonderful your a christian and all for it. The only thing I dont like about christianity as I mentioned is the 1) hell fire and scare tactics of SOME of its followers and 2) the refusal by SOME followers to look at the other religion and people in the world on in an unbiased way. Im not accusing you or anyone really in particular of that, but I have seen it sadly. lol of course we'll disagree! We're on two different sides and we're discussing beliefs which is sometimes a hard thing to prove and even contrast and discuss. Its interesting though I always give it that lol! I'm not trying to chaneg your beliefs or anything, I just was saying you say you have researched this (which I do not doubt) but from what you also seem to say, its kinda one sided (correct me if wrong.) I just didnt fully agree with that. Other then all that I dont have much more to say on this discussion lol! |
| Date: 2/1/2003 2:25:00 AM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 42940 Kaja Queen Crazy: No, I'm not insulted, in fact I've really enjoyed this opportunity. I really think we can learn a lot from eachother. We may still disagree. As long as we don't stoop to name calling, and let our tempers get the best of us, we can still learn a lot from each other, good or bad. One last thing, I would like to hear what you think about the Christian cross and why. PM me tho because it might start a religious war. I promise I won't argue with you about it. *** bad kitty *** |
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Date: 2/1/2003 10:33:00 AM
From Authorid: 15675
lol I dont think it'll start a religious war. Once again simple beliefs . When I was a christian I didnt understand. I knew Jesus died for us, but why did we revere the thing he died on? why not him? thats what I always personally thought. Anyways magickally speaking the cross isnt a good symbol. Not because of christians, for it goes back before christians obviously . It means destruction and death and its easy to see why people seen that symbol that way, it was a form of execution! Magickans prefer the equal armed cross which is a cross that has all sides equal. |
| Date: 2/5/2003 9:27:00 PM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 42940 Very interesting Kaja Queen Crazy. *** bad kitty *** |
| Date: 2/11/2003 10:17:00 AM From Authorid: 60940 Wicca was essentially created my gardner. It wasn't called wicca till gardner made it. Before that it was witchcraft. Where did you get the info about freemasons? they arn't connected much to wicca. |
| Date: 2/11/2003 7:27:00 PM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 42940 H inner sanctuary uk. The connection between Wicca and Freemasons, as the article states is that Gerald Gardner is said to be a Freemason and his Aleister Crowley who is also said to be a Freemason. The connections are that they both call their practice "the craft" and they both use pentagrams. Thanks for your comment. *** bad kitty *** |
Date: 2/15/2003 8:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
***bad kitty***, this agrument is so flawed, I hardly know where to begin. The pentacle, or pentagram to a Pagan (non-Jew, non-Christian, non-muslim) is a symbol. And a "tool". It has been used for great harm, the same as the Christian Cross has been used to commit great harm. The "tool" is not evil, but people mis-used it, and caused a misunderstanding. I once published a whole list, here on USM, of famous Freemasons. Including George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and a few of the "founding Fathers". Now, to use the argument that because both groups use pentagrams, and acknowlage a Goddess, is also a flawed argument. Only 1/4 of the Earth's population recognizes the Christian God. So, now that leaves 3/4 who worship a God, Goddess, or any combination, thereof. Or, even NO God.The two groups also have in common 1) they were born of Earthly Mothers.....and 2) they have two eyes, and a nose......3)they belong to the human race....see my point? Magic is neither evil, nor good. It is a force, a "tool", if you will, and the intent behind it makes it "good", or "bad". I still believe "Wicca", and "Witch" can be interchanged, but then again, there are "religious Witches" who would disagree. (not unlike different denominations of Christians). I prefer to call myself a "Witch". But that is a personal preference. I can call myself whatever I want, but without the commitment of the soul & mind-it wil mean nothing. I am offended by your last comment about Wiccan's suing. I think that shows intolerence, and very-narrow minded thinking. That is my opinion. )O(  |
| Date: 2/17/2003 11:08:00 PM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 42940 LSG thanks for your comment. What exactly is flawed? If you could be more specific I would be happy to address it. The sole purpose of my posting this article was to expose the many tentacles of Freemasonry. I already agreed before that it should state "some witches" are quick to sue. I stated that both Freemasons and Wiccans use the pentagram (pentacal) and call their practice "the craft". Is that incorrect? Personally I've never used the cross to harm anyone. And anyone that would use the cross to represent Jesus Christ and hurt another does not have the love Christ within him. I also know many of the "founding fathers" were Freemasons. I'm not disagreeing with you there. But that just reinforces what I already believe. And I, being a person who believes in One God the Creator of all things, the God of the Bible, I don't worship gods or goddesses. The Bible also warns of witchcraft (it doesn't distinguish between good/bad or white/black) so I choose to stay away from it. I know you're a witch, and you're an adult too, and you are free to worship whomever and however you choose. If you reject the Bible, that's your choice. I'm in no way telling you or anyone else who, what or how to worship. I'm simply sharing my beliefs, experiences, and information. I've stated it over and over again, and I'll say it once again - in the end we all have to answer for ourselves. *** bad kitty *** |
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Date: 2/19/2003 10:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
I found my list of Famous Freemasons! http://www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm44327.html there are quite a few famous names there, Bad Kitty |
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Date: 2/23/2003 11:03:00 PM
From Authorid: 52489
Well! After wading through a lot of the name-calling and repudiations, I was astonished to find so much finger pointing without the Freemasons being represented in this discussion. As a 3rd-Degree Freemason myself, I feel it's my duty to set the record straight! First of all, let me say that my oath as a Freemason prohibits me from revealing any of our rituals; I have sworn an oath on a Bible (yes, a real one!) to uphold our traditions. That's part of our fellowship, and our history. I will say however that everything about our traditions can be found in any number of books. The best of these is "Born in Blood: The Lost Secrets of Freemasonry", by John J. Robinson. It's the fairest and most informative book about our fraternity, and was written using real Masonic sources. Freemasonry is an outgrowth of many different orders, most notably the Templar Knights; which, I might add, has nothing to do with either Witchcraft or Satan! That's slander, pure and simple! It's put up by people who know nothing, and want an easy answer to something they don't understand! If you want the truth, go about it the old way: learn! --Arion1  |
| Date: 2/24/2003 5:36:00 PM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 42940 Arion 1 first question - Was Gerald Gardner a Mason / Freemason? 2nd Question - Was Aleister Crowley a Mason / Freemason? 3rd Question - Do you use the name of Jesus Christ in any of your prayers / rituals? *** bad kitty *** |
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Date: 2/25/2003 10:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 52489
^^^bad kitty^^^: I will answer your questions in reverse. We use the name of God, not Jesus Christ. No atheist can become a Freemason; but at the same time, we do not judge a man by how he worships. As for Aleister Crowley, I can truthfully say, not to my knowledge. Crowley, besides being an addict and a dabbler in Black Magic, seems to have been interested in our fraternity, but only in a vague way. To answer questions of who was a Freemason and who wasn't, you should look at a copy of a multi-volume series: "Ten Thousand Famous Freemasons". It's an alphabetical listing spanning four volumes. It's out of print, but you can usually find a set on bookfinder.com. As for Gardner, see previous answer. For further enlightenment, the History Channel did a great special on the Order of Freemasonry. You can buy the tape from their website, historychannel.com. --Arion1 |
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Date: 2/27/2003 11:51:00 PM
From Authorid: 52489
A final comment about the truth of Freemasonry: Freemasonry is NOT a secret society. Our lodges are prominently displayed, our meeting times and dates are frequently in the newspapers, the rules and regulations are regularly in print. We're very open about that. Try to remember this axiom, "Freemasonry is not a secret society; they are a society with secrets." We have secret methods of recognition, so that members can quickly recognize each other as Masons upon the first meeting. The value of these signals is pretty obvious: a man who is abroad is never far from friends. And, we have our secret rituals, which date from the first founding of our order; most of them have their origins from the Holy Bible, which isn't surprising, as some legends suggest that King Solomon himself was one of the first Masons! These are the only secrets Freemasons have. --Arion1 |
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Date: 3/2/2003 10:06:00 AM
From Authorid: 11199
Bad Kitty, Freemason started out as free men. men who weren't serfs or slaves to the fuedal system in England. These men created a sort of union for all men who built things. Mainly they were stone mason and brick masons. They were educated in not only in their crafts (this refers to their profession) but languages, mathematics, science, religion, history, and law. these men traveled not only in england but also other parts of europe. i know many many masons. my great great granfather was a methodist minister and a mason. i have several masons in my family and not one of them is wiccan. i currently know several ministers that are masons and they are not wiccan. masons require that you believe in the supreme being and the teaching of the Bible. Masonery is not a religion. it never claimed to be. Masonery doesn't teach a salavtion message. it teaches about how men must help each other and how they must serve the supreme being. masons are not wiccans. however some men have joined the fraternity under false pretenses to subvert other from joining. also the Catholic church doesnt support masons because they have their own masonic like fraternity call the Knights of Columbus.  |
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Date: 3/2/2003 10:12:00 AM
From Authorid: 11199
if you really want to know more about masonery talk to 32 degree mason authorid id 18155 |
Date: 3/4/2003 6:15:00 AM
From Authorid: 18155
Heard about this site and had to read it myself.Putting Freemasons in the ame basket as Wiccans, which I am, is,with all due respect, not having or not showing an even general knowledge of Masonary.33 DEGREE Scotish Rite, KNIGHT TEMPLAR,York, Rite.  |
| Date: 3/10/2003 7:48:00 PM From Authorid: 62076 I would like to put my 2 cents worth in, please, I know almost nothing about wicca or witchcraft, etc. However I have studied the history of freemasonry and it is very interesting to say the least. First thing - Masons are not in anyway shape or form connected with wicca or witchcraft. If I could only find a car saleman that was a mason, I wouldn't need a mechanic (except for tuneups and stuff). But there is some truth to the comments about Crowley, please understand that according to history Crowley was once a mason but was x-communicated from the lodge. History states (depending what you read) that Crowley took what he had learned from 'the masonic society' and preverted it extremely. He even established masonic lodges - HOWEVER they were considered irregular lodges and never recognised by any Grand lodge. Irregular lodges did exsist (I don't know if they still do) but the term irregular could mean anything from not allowing women in their lodge (some now do and I don't think these lodges are considered regular) to "satan worship" for no better example. And if you really want to go back in time then the conspiracy with Satan and masons started with the Knight Templars and the 'goat demon' - Baphomat. It is said to be a conspiracy to distroy the Knight Templars. Again 'regular' masons are 'the good guys'. |
| Date: 5/28/2003 8:27:00 PM ( From Author ) From Authorid: 42940 I appreciate all your comments although I don't necessarily agree with them as they don't change my opinion. It's been a while since I've been here so I won't personally respond. *** bad kitty *** |
Date: 12/12/2003 8:33:00 AM
From Authorid: 62478
Belive what you want I will never try to tell you otherwise. But there will come a time when all belifes come toghter and realize that all along they where searching and found the exact same thing. untill that day arives and I can call you brother, take care and go in peace ........deathletgo  |
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Date: 6/30/2004 1:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 18155
WAs bored and looking for some "comments" about "The Order" or "The Craft", as we Masons call it. |
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