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Date: 9/12/2002 5:54:00 PM
From Authorid: 45630
The difference between learning greek mythology and christianity is that greek polytheitism is a dead religion. Christianity is not. Teaching Christianity is teaching a belief that is still predominant in world culture. Old mythologies are being taught so we can understand how societies lived and how their social conditions revolved around these "heretic" religions.  |
Date: 9/12/2002 5:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 30630
There are some things I would rather teach my child than have the schools do it for me. Sex being one. As for the religion, I agree with you. Although I am not Christian, I think that kids should be able to pray, meditate, chant, or whatever else. I believe if they want to put religion in schools, then it should be ALL religions. Just have different areas of the schools for different religions. And on another note, this reply probably made no sense at all because I am extremely tired and my brain isn't working my fingers well! lol  |
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Date: 9/12/2002 5:58:00 PM
From Authorid: 30630
Why do you consider polytheitism a dead religion Kurtvedder? Just curious. |
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Date: 9/12/2002 5:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 30630
sp^polytheism |
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Date: 9/12/2002 6:03:00 PM
From Authorid: 45630
Greek polytheitism is a dead religion! It hasn't been practiced in centuries |
Date: 9/12/2002 6:04:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Kurt: I dont buy that explaination. New age is alive and thriving yet its being taught as a form of meditation in our schools.  |
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Date: 9/12/2002 6:05:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
StormChaser, its makes plenty of sense. Kurt, Just because to YOUR knowledge it hasnt been practiced, doesn't mean that somewhere that its not being practiced. |
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Date: 9/12/2002 6:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 30630
Main Entry: poly·the·ism Pronunciation: 'pä-lE-("  thE-"i-z&mFunction: noun Etymology: French polytheisme, from Late Greek polytheos polytheistic, from Greek, of many gods, from poly- + theos god Date: 1613 : belief in or worship of more than one god As taken out of the Websters dictionary. I worship a Goddess and God. More than one. |
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Date: 9/12/2002 6:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 45630
But it is not as predominant as ancient greek religion. Also it is not taught as a set of guidelines for us to adhere to whereas christianity is. |
Date: 9/12/2002 6:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 15675
Firstborn I guess I must say this is not how it is at my school. We learn of all religions in world area (christianity, islam, and judisam oddly enough though I dont see new age in the line up) we learn of creationisim and evolution just like we learn what the envriomentalist say about he ozone and what the critics say. Not all new agers worship greek deities and usually from what I've been taught at school they only taught about hercules which is not a god in my opinion (he was horroble!) What we need to do is not eliminate creationsim, evolution, mythology, or christianity from schools we need to teach about it all and i believe my school is doing fine with that. Also we dont have prayer or meditation and I dont know of any school that does but I'm sure there is one.  |
Date: 9/12/2002 6:09:00 PM
From Authorid: 30630
As Firstborn stated and I apologize, Not a debate on which religion is true. Everyone believes different. Please accept my apology FB.  |
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Date: 9/12/2002 6:11:00 PM
From Authorid: 15675
oh I also forgot. They should not just teach christian creationisim but what every major religion has for creationisim. |
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Date: 9/12/2002 6:12:00 PM
From Authorid: 54725
I totally agree with you! Yes, they are still teaching evolution in schools. The big bang is a theory as much as creation, yet they present it as fact! It's ridiculous. Also about sex education, that should be handled by the parents!  |
Date: 9/12/2002 6:12:00 PM
From Authorid: 56410
Let me say this now: I dont want to argue. I just want to tell you what I think.. They teach evolution as a part of science. Not history. The rough definintion of evolution is: "the changing of things over time." They teach mythology in school, because it was a part of an ancient civilization. It was a beleif, not a religion. They teach that ancient Europeans thought the earth was flat. That was what they believed. The reason they do not teach religion in school is because there are people who may not follow the religion they teach..and not only that, what are you going to learn from it? Anyway, some people would sure as heck be offended if they taught religion in school. I mean, we know that the government controls what they teach, but now the church? Thats a little much.  |
Date: 9/12/2002 6:21:00 PM
From Authorid: 57653
Well, meditation doesn't make a religion. I know plenty of Christians that meditate. Well, I think I like the way Kaja's school works. We shouldn't exclude any religion...But we shouldn't favor one over the other either. I think that is what made all this come to this point in the first place. There was such an EMPHASIS on Christianity that the people who were not Christian felt that they had to act. And that brought us to our current problem. I just think it's something for high school as oppossed to elementary or even Jr High. ~SilverFire  |
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Date: 9/12/2002 6:21:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Stormy, Exactly! And that is being practiced through out the world. Kaja, yes it seems that all school are different in what they allow and what they dont. I know up here they were teaching the children the new age thing. |
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Date: 9/12/2002 6:23:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Kurt: it doesnt matter if its predominant or not, ITS STILL being done. Stormy hon, actually I didnt want evolution and creation battled. AND as far as I can see, your not trying to state which religions are true and what ones are not. So no apology needed. |
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Date: 9/12/2002 6:25:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Kaja, thats it, I dont LIKE them teaching all, but if ya teach one they NEED to teach all. Good point. LOL, seems more christians are tolerant of what may be taught than some secular people, they want EVERYTHING taught except CHRISTIANITY. |
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Date: 9/12/2002 6:28:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Forever Wolf, thank you, I agree. AV:: Ok, AZ says its taught as a part of history, you say its taught as a part of science, which is it? Do any of you know? Sorry hon, most of mythology was a religion. What are you going to learn from religion? a choice, a knowledge that far out weighs anything, you will learn about your soul, your spirit, your life. I disagree, it was taught in the schools for a long time, when this country still had a sense of decency. |
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Date: 9/12/2002 6:31:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
No, meditation does not make a religion, HOWEVER, when the basis of that religion is MOSTLY done with mediation, USING your MINDS eye, well personally that is something I dont go with. But thats another story. Christians MEDITATE on the word of God. However MEDITATION is NOT their religion. OF course there was LOTS of emphasis on Christianity, contrary to popular belief on THIS site, our country was founded on Christianity. |
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Date: 9/12/2002 6:31:00 PM
From Authorid: 15675
hmmm firstborn we watched a set of videos in world area about what the SCIENTIST and now i cant stress this word enough lol THOUGHT was the history of man. We learned about the archilactual (cant spell it) facts but they never said where these 'monkey/people' came from. See evolution and creationisim kinda run into each other cuz if evolution happend something had to make those monkey men lol! |
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Date: 9/12/2002 6:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 56410
Another thing I dont want to argue about. I just want to know: what is to teach in Christianity? Most people understand the basic principles of the relgion..God, Jesus was his son, 13 apostles, Adam and Eve, 10 Commandments, and so on and so forth. Its hard to ignore it all. However, most remain uneducated about the eastern religions, and those built on the real world (i.e. Paganism, Wicca, humanism) and what have you..so to prevent ignorance of their beliefs (and to prevent another religious war) they might make it an elective to learn of such theologies..I may sound biased, but thats just another thought that came into my head.. |
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Date: 9/12/2002 6:34:00 PM
From Authorid: 56410
Evolution is science..look it up in the dictionary.. |
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Date: 9/12/2002 6:34:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Kaja, yep, what they THOUGHT, but as we know Thoughts Do NOT make fact. LOL |
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Date: 9/12/2002 6:35:00 PM
From Authorid: 15675
oh also firstborn here is a thought on religion in schools: if kids parenst (who are christian) want them taught the christian values then maybe they should go to private school. lol in my town we have 5 different elementary schools, 3 public, 1 catholic, and 1 lutheran. The funny part is middle and high school all the schools are mixed together and there is no private middle or high school lol! But see maybe them going to public school like mine and learning about all the religions may inspire them to try a dif religion (like judisim or muslim or if they werent christian christianity.) I guess the saddest part of all is that its not nessacerily whats being taught in schools but kids/teens lack of desire to be religious (from what I can see.) I mean oh dont get me on what they do at confirmation and they go only cuz their forced! Its sad really... |
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Date: 9/12/2002 6:39:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
no, AV: you dont sound biased. A side of Christianity that most people dont seem to grasp is the spiritual side. Sure there is the learning of the Bible, as History, as told by men/women of God and of course to me the reality of how this earth was made and by whom. BUT the really special part of christianty is the spiritual aspect of it. Not only does it teach, that there is an after life, but it also teaches that there is a spriitual realm, on this EARTH today. With spiritual enities. Actually if one was to study some of the eastern religions they deal in a whole lot of this same thing. AS eastern religions are more to do with the supernatural and spiritual realm than that of most religions, but IF one talks about this realm while being christian, they are labeled as crazy. I think they should have an elective of what to learn. Will I go along with some of the electives? Probably not, but in order to make Christianity part of those elective, we all must give and take a little. |
Date: 9/12/2002 7:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 54987
Well they teach history where there are a lot of untruths but they still teach that. As I've said before in reply to other posts. School is for education. Religion is a necessary subject but only in an educational context when compared with other religions in the world. Church and home is where peoples personal religion should be practiced. Unless it is a private religious funded school. - Coolade  |
Date: 9/12/2002 7:35:00 PM
From Authorid: 11348
Religion is not the PARENTS' job, it's the church's job. And last year, believe it or not, in public high school... I had a complete religion class. It was an overview of many religions. I can see the logic in the creation evolution school thing too. Creation you learn in church... but where are you going to learn evolution if not in school? You learn that in science because it is a scientific theory. Other scientific theories are tought, why exclude that one? They don't teach students to believe it, simply to acknowledge it. The mythological things also are not taught in church... they're history and taught as such.  |
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Date: 9/12/2002 7:48:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Coolade, I do see your point, but do you see mine? Should football, baseball, vollyball, sex education, be TAUGHT at home as I dont see the educational context in it. |
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Date: 9/12/2002 7:51:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Krazy Kritter, WHY ACknowledge it if its just a theory? Why not then ALSO acknowledge the Creation Theory? They do not have to teach people to believe it, but JUST ACKNOWLDGE IT, NO MORE, NO LESS THAN WHAT YOU want done with evolution. See thats what I mean about a double standard. I disagree with you its NOT the churchs place to teach our children about God. IT is the duty and responsibility of the parent, sure its good to go to church and learn more, but ITS the parents that gave birth to the child, not the church. |
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Date: 9/12/2002 8:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 15675
firstborn most peoples problem with creationisim is if it was taught from what christians want is it would just be christians creationisim which as we all know lol would be 'unfair' as i said earlier they need to teach all creationisim (meaning buddisim, muslim, etc) theories on creation before it would be a good idea. Kids usually are fairly presented both sides of all the theories and problems and its up to the kid to make their own descion on it. |
Date: 9/12/2002 8:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 45551
ok, well the way i see it, is the differance between the things they are teaching is they are harmless and unorganized and have pretty no political power or no real structure. relgion is organized and there are alot of people who try to push thier religion on others hence down the line we would have a populace of one religion with an extremly large amount of political clout, then thier would be alot off book banning, amongst other things. i think there is already to much religion in government.  |
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Date: 9/12/2002 9:13:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Kaja< I dont know if you saw that, but I agreed with you on this point. Master of FAte. There is a difference between religion and the teaching of how a lot of us believe the world was created. Teaching creation does not mean having to teach the religion of the thing. I think there is already too much government in religion. |
Date: 9/12/2002 9:22:00 PM
From Authorid: 53052
i was not taught that it was how the world was made i was taught the basics of it as a THEROY and it was barely covered in all my 15+ years of education  |
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Date: 9/12/2002 9:24:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Gee, midnightly, I wonder why that was? |
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Date: 9/12/2002 11:20:00 PM
From Authorid: 53052
i don't wonder why i think it is something that most teachers want to stay away from they leave it to the student to make the choice on what they believe they are all THEORYs meaning that no one is sure exactly what made the world what it is and i prefure it that way it WAS COVERED in my education but we didn't spend months on it talking and debating it |
Date: 9/13/2002 5:25:00 AM
From Authorid: 22852
When my oldest son was 4 I went to the Catholic school in our town and asked the principal about Adam and Eve and Science saying man was created through evolution of ape and her answer to me was who ever said Adam and Eve could not have been Ape. I enrolled my son that day. This school taught both Religion and science and melted the two together. They allowed the children to learn both and to make the decission for themselves.  |
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Date: 9/13/2002 9:08:00 AM
From Authorid: 54987
Firstborn - I agree also that sport should also be kept out of the school curriculum. It's not education. Whoever came up with the concept of physical education was nuts. Physical education is biology. School sport is cheap education like sport on tv. - Coolade |
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Date: 9/13/2002 9:43:00 AM
From Authorid: 54987
No I don't think people want to ban what you believe. What they are trying to do is not to force religion on people. To make it a choice. A freedom of choice which is supposed to be the very cornerstone of our constitution. - Coolade |
Date: 9/13/2002 10:20:00 AM
From Authorid: 27046
Okay the public school that I was taught in does not teach the theory of evolution. Both creationism and evolution are given as definition word. Meaning that when they come into the social studies class when you are learning this part of history they give you the definition of each. They don't and never did go into either theory and what each was all about. Secondly having sports in school and the music program have been proven to be effective in keeping kids off the street and keeping them focused. Those schools that offer no extra curricular activities have the highest rates of violence with gangs and drugs. All you have to do to see this is look at some of the underfunded inner city schools. We were never shown a movie in school UNLESS it was a special occassion such as Halloween or Christmas or IF we were studying legends. SO I did see the headless horsemen and the legend of corn when I was in school. After both we were given a writing assignment to go along with it so it wasn't all fun and games. You know sometimes there are good morals behind some of these movies. But the story and it's plot is one that is interesting enough to keep the attention of the kids. I remember watching radio flyer in my child education class. We watched that movie to show the difference between a promise being good and bad. But it was a movie we could all be interested in instead of some boring documentary that we were all going to fall asleep through and learn nothing. Funny you know I watched much of the OJ simpson trial in my business law class. So you can't say what and what can't relate to teaching in the classroom. As far as sex education. That was taught in health class. Sperm meets egg falopian tubes, ovulation menstration, puberty. They don't give you the big long wait until it's someone you love or wait until you are married speech. Sure some schools are handing out condoms to the students or adding machines in the bathroom. It would seem to me with a high rate of teenage pregnancy obviously the parents aren't doing their job. What is the school going to do? Stop them from having sex? NOT, but they can help them to protect themselves. It amazes me that people would complain about someone else trying to save their child's life or their fertility with all the diseases we have out there today. And on a last note people don't need religion to survive. They need LIFE skills. Sex education happens to be a life skill, and a function of the body that is important in our survival. Kids are allowed to chant, pray and meditate, it is not allowed to be taught...  |
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Date: 9/13/2002 10:28:00 AM
From Authorid: 27046
FB by the way it is also taught in science class like AV said and exactly how she said it. It is also taught in history when you are studying the era in which the theory came to be.....I NEVER in either class been taught the in's and out's about the Theory of evolution. I also failed to mention that we did learn of the Islamic, Muslim, Buddha and all that when we did world studies. But again it was given in rough definition...we were not studying the religion, we were studying the cultures of the people around us today and yesterday. No one stands up and starts bible quoting and treated each as sermon..it is just touched on briefly with no details and no brainwashing... |
Date: 9/13/2002 10:30:00 AM
From Authorid: 53500
Very good Firstborn. I agree with the things you wrote. It's ok to teach theories in school, as long as they are presented that way, I think it's good for developing the thinking process. BUT, I think you need to present ALL theories that are incompassed in a particular subject. Such as if you are teaching the theory of the Big Bang, you must counter it with the Theory of Creationism. Besides, most religions have a Creation theory. So who is going to be offended by it? Just present it as a Divine entity creating the universe. I think the people opposed to it have their hearts set that creationsim will be presented as the Bible presents it. There are ways around that, in which creationism can be taught. But no, I'm offended, my feelings are hurt, I'm sensitive, boo hoo. Good grief! SUEDE  |
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Date: 9/13/2002 10:36:00 AM
From Authorid: 27046
Oh and schools cannot hand out birthcontrol pills.....they are not an over the counter medication and require a physical examination, family history of blood clots, stroke and heart disease and require an internal examination. Last time I checked I don't remember anyone saying that we now have gynocologists in school. On a further note Gym class does have it's benefits. Although most of the teenagers can do without it, for the younger kids they are easily bored with the pressures of school work and need time to get out and play and run around. It also teaches teamwork and cooperation. |
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Date: 9/13/2002 10:44:00 AM
From Authorid: 27046
Everything was taught to us in school. All theories that were available at the time that I went to school were taught as defination. Such as: theory of evolution: a scientific theory of the origin of species of plants and animals. That is it. It was the same with all other religions. No one sat down and went into each one and taught us the ropes from beginning to end...I can tell you though I learned most about the Christian religion than any other because it was more prevalent throughout history.....and in the years coming I guarentee you when classes start to talk about the middle east and study their history and culture they will be going more in more depth about the faith of muslims because what they have done BASED on their religion is going to be and will always be a MAJOR part of history. However the difference will be it will not be taught as truth, and it will not be taught to convert people... |
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Date: 9/13/2002 5:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 30630
Well, I am back. The college in the town I live in, it is mandatory to take bible study and Christian classes to graduate. THAT I don't agree with. |
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Date: 9/13/2002 5:17:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Thank you midnightly. Coolade::: I know that they have those programs for social as well as physical fitness and I think one of the presidents came up with it. LOL AZ::: RAdio flyer was a dang cute movie, but none the less movies dont have any place in schools, if creation theory, doesnt. You may have had to write a paper on the movies, and hopefully it was graded for english content. Kids allowed to pray is important for their spiritual well being, which effects their fleshly growth. I'm not talking religion and sermons AZ, I'm talking teaching the other side of the coin of evolution. SUede:: Amen and I agree with all you have said!! |
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Date: 9/13/2002 5:21:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
StormChaser, sounds like a good school, and thats all I'm asking for here. NOT just one side, but both. No coolade, I'm not talking about forcing religion down throats, JUST the same amount of teaching they do on evolution as they should on creation. Sorry, hon, AZ<< but in some places they do give out birth control pills. Stormy personally I think it sounds like a great college. Sorry guys that all this is mixed up, but I've been working on my puter today, and just was able to get on now, but now I have to leave for awhile, dont know if I'll be back tonight. |
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Date: 9/13/2002 7:30:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Storm but that is a college you are talking about, not a public elementary, middle, junior or high school. |
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Date: 9/13/2002 7:34:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Firstborn I would love to know the name and location of a school that is giving out birth control pills or any sort of oral medication. NOW it is different if they have a clinic of sorts that comes to the school once a week or whatever. That would be different. It's not being provided by the school, it is being made accessible from the school. My counties WIC program does something similiar. On check pickup day they break off into districts of the county so everyone doesn't have to drive down to the main building. They do them in places like churches which is where I used to pick mine up when I was on it. In this case the students WOULD be seeing someone from the medical profession with a license to dispense prescriptions. |
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Date: 9/13/2002 7:35:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Oh and by the way I haven't even heard of that being done... |
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Date: 9/13/2002 7:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Firstborn...first...they don't teach the theory of evolution and they don't teach creationism. They teach the definition of each. So you have it backwards, if they teach creationism they would have to teach therory of evolution too, because I am telling ya they don't teach it. Secondly kids ARE allowed to pray.....they are not allowed to be lead in prayer. That is why things like moments of silence for a student that has died, it is for each individual to bow their heads and say their prayers to their own God or Godesses. What I don't understand is, the 7 hours that I am at work I am not allowed to smoke. I have no choice even though going without is detrimental to my well being and those around me...LOL...However I can use my breaks to get my mental clarity and my nicotine fix. That is what lunch and study halls are for. Between the two you are talking an hour AT LEAST. For once I just wish that Christians would give it all a rest. And I don't mean that to be nasty either, but I mean think about it. Christianity rules over everything else. It's on our money, it's in our anthems. Now STILL going on today they are telling Wiccans that they can't wear a pentagram charm, but it's okay to wear crosses. Kid's can't come to school dressed in goth because it's devilish looking. A student can wear a rosary around their neck or carry one in their hand but a homosexual can't wear a gay pride charm. Maybe when the Christian side gives a little...they may not get such a fight asking for some in return..... |
Date: 9/13/2002 10:09:00 PM
From Authorid: 53927
WEll first of all, the theory of evolution should be said that it is fact because people find nothing but evidance ever day. The reason why we don't teach kids religion in school is because they contradict eachother in a way and there are too many of them. That truely is the partents job. Does it matter what movie they watch, it isn't telling them to go against their religion and they could think for themselves. As for the creation theroy, there is absolutely no evidence that god created us or even evidence of a god. Besides mythology is taught as literature. Besides I think we students in school should get on with our learning and stop bickering about religion because there was this little thing called the Dark Ages which lasted about 1000 years and learning was stopped almost completely and so was discovery. I for one, don't want that to happen in modern day. I say we get on with our lives and learn something new and not let someones religion hold us back. If you have a problem right a note excluding your child from something, thats what I think.  |
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Date: 9/13/2002 10:21:00 PM
From Authorid: 53927
Theories are only thought if there is some truth or evidence for them. There is no evidence that God created anything, and why teach it if that one sentence explains everything about the Creation theory. I think it's rather primitive to believe in that but people will believe different things. |
Date: 9/13/2002 11:13:00 PM
From Authorid: 22080
yeah firstborn i have a strong opinion on this and my history teacher did it anywho he taught all the beliefs of our coming to be and then went straight to the first civilization known to man(mesopatamia(sp?)) and i think its the best thing ever because i agree no religon belongs in school BUT there should be ways to show teenagers what the different beliefs are as to how we came about i think its a great idea and then if they like it they can look further into it  |
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Date: 9/13/2002 11:15:00 PM
From Authorid: 22080
and also about the greek thing i am really big on greek mythology its so awesome but its also just literature and without it we couldnt understand there culture |
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Date: 9/14/2002 2:06:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
I'm pretty sure AZ that it is a once a week clinic, however that doesnt matter, they still have no bussiness coming to the school to do this. Drugs are accessible from the school too, does that make it right? |
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Date: 9/14/2002 2:09:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
AZ< So all of that would be ok, gay pride charms, penatagram charms what ever, that ok? I dont care what people wear. And perhaps they dont teach it in some of the schools you know, but the evolution theory is taught in schools. Heck, they taught it when I was in school, and many kids on usm in some of their comments only confirms that it is STILL being taught. |
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Date: 9/14/2002 2:12:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Bart, my children are all out of school. Sorry I think there is plenty of evidence of God. Besides, why are you against them teaching creation when they do in fact teach evolution, and its JUST a THEORY WITH NO HARD CORE FACTS?? |
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Date: 9/14/2002 2:18:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
jESTR: I think that at least your getting both sides of the pictures, while many schools do not do that. To me and it should be clear to everyone that there is a difference in teaching the creation theory and religion, as there are many religions. |
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Date: 9/14/2002 2:35:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Firstborn it does matter the kids that need the easier accessibility. I took birth control pills when I was 16 to regulate my periods not because I was sexually active. It would have been so much easier for me if I could have gone to a clinic that came to the school once a week to pick up my pills or to ask any questions that I needed to know, without having to make an appointment, call and wait for a call back or get a ride to go and pick up my pills if my parents were working or something. And Firstborn might I remind you, when you went to school...it was allowed to be taught.. |
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Date: 9/14/2002 2:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
You know Firstborn, teachers have more success teaching children at a child level then they do at an adult level. A teacher that stands up in the middle of the room and lectures the whole class will produce more failures than a teacher that makes the lesson a game or shows a video or movie about the subject that kids can relate to. Afterall they are teaching CHILDREN and not ADULTS. It's funny how there have been all kinds of kids that just have not been able to concept reading at all whatsoever and mommy goes out and buys a hooked on phonics game and the kid can read like a pro after playing that game. Why is is it so successful? Because the program is set up to remember that it is teaching CHILDREN and not adults and it gets down into their level by using things that interest children. Now my own daughter had trouble with her ABC's. I bought flash cards. I started out with ABCD four easy letters and did them everynight with her for 2 weeks. At the end of two weeks she could not tell me which one was which out of 4 letters. I went out and bought an elecronic sesame street game. The game would say which letter is R and if she picked the correct one it blew a whistle. Within 3 days that kid could recogonize every letter in the alphabet. The only reason it was possible is because the game was designed to teach a child level... |
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Date: 9/14/2002 4:37:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
AZ, LOL, I"M NOT against these things, THE WHOLE point of this post is that IF ALL these things can be taught, did, shown or what ever, then the creation theory SHOULD be allowed as well. I'm just saying that people such as yourself, pick and choose what they think is allowable, but when it comes to the creation theory, NO ONE wishes to include it. |
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Date: 9/14/2002 4:38:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Besides, I'm ONLY using those things to show that anything goes now days when it comes to school, YET bring God or creation into it, then EVERYONE wants it NOT allowed. |
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Date: 9/14/2002 4:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Firstborn people like me do not pick and choose what they think is allowable. I was taught creationism.....by definition...theory of evolution...by definition...Wicca, Buddhism and all the others BY DEFINITION. WHICH is exactly how it should remain. There should be no detail or prolonged study on ANY religion. THAT is what CHURCH SCHOOL is for. |
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Date: 9/14/2002 9:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
You know I have to even wonder why someone would want their kid taught religion at school, any kind in any length of depth. Maybe it's just me, but I would rather have a church or pastor that I know personally and the views of one of which I support as well as myself to teach my child religion. I would hate for my children to be taught to take everyword as it is for it's meaning and decide to go off the deep end because some religious fanatic told them had to do so. So if we were to bring religious study and use a forum to teach all is it going to be acceptable that they can only teach your children that creationism is fact meanwhile denouncing the wiccan religion as fact when there are other Wiccan students in the class that feel that their religion is fact and that yours is false? I mean there ARE catholic schools that will teach creationism and even hold daily mass. There is the option always there for children to get both a religious education and a "school" education. Not many other religions have that choice....Unfortunately Hogwart's doesn't exist in this lifetime for witches and wizards....LOL |
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Date: 9/14/2002 10:14:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Apparently AZ, you have NOT read my comments, I'm not talking religion as YOU insist, I'm talking just what you said here::""I was taught creationism.....by definition...theory of evolution...by definition""" Teach them ALL, by definition of course, but INCLUDE creation. |
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Date: 9/14/2002 10:15:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
FB like I been trying to tell you and told you 20 replies ago...LOL....They do teach them ALL as they come up through history BY DEFINITION. |
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Date: 9/15/2002 9:41:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
LOL, what we have here is a failure to communicate, MY fault, as I've had to hurry through replies, due to a busy past few days, My bad! Sorry. |
Date: 9/15/2002 10:31:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
IMAGINE a creationist version of an electrical engineering. STUDENT: "What makes the light come on when I flip the switch?" CREATIONIST professor: "God makes the light come on." So, what happens when the student flips the switch, and the light does NOT come on? Does the creationist professor explain that God made the light stay off? How do such answers help if we want light? They won't. We need a more complex theory of electricity. We have to know, for example, about fuses and about filaments in a light bulb; and how electricity is made and generated. Creation theory says: God did it. Evolution theory EXPLAINS how things are done. The two theories represent different levels of complexity. Evolution theory helps us to predict the future and to predict what we will find from the past. Creationism does neither. Why teach it? There are numerous questions about evolution that cannot now or perhaps ever be answered. This is normal science. Every explanatory theory about the real world raises more questions than it can answer; that is part of what makes explanatory theories useful. Science develops by increments modifying itself as NEW evidence is aquired. Is it not irrational to believe or depend upon the tales of goat-herding fanatics wandering around in the Sinai Desert 4,000 years ago, and defend those outmoded and primitive myths, superstitions and beliefs against all the progress of human thought, civilization, science, technology and even human decency?  |
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Date: 9/15/2002 11:32:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Thinker, it sounds like your bias against goat herders? Your comment is senseless. |
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Date: 9/15/2002 11:50:00 AM
From Authorid: 27046
Great comment Cat! I understood it perfectly!... |
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Date: 9/15/2002 1:25:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Oh AZ, I understood it perfectly too, but its just her way of being sarcastic and bias as usual, her comment, to me, wasnt worth a big reply. |
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Date: 9/15/2002 1:54:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
I'll tell you what IS "senseless". When young people; kids make statements like: "Evolution is a religion;....evolution justifies racism;...evolution don't just happen;....I don't care where it all began; I don't need to know." and many others. WHERE do you think they LEARNED that? IF everybody still thought that way, we would all still be grubbing around on the farm, doing our chores by candle light or a coal oil lamp; our transportation mode would be by horse and buggy; infant mortality rate would like those of the 3rd world countries; Life expectancy would be very low; Polio and diseases would be devestating; with primitive medical care, and severely limited communication....to name a few. Modern science explains life and our world without referring to any superstitions, gods, magic or mysticism. Yeah, sure, there ARE gaps in our knowledge but "LACK OF KNOWLEDGE IS NOT A LICENSE TO INVENT FANTASY", so says Ayn Rand. The most telling aspect of creationism is the absolute certainty of their position. This FAITH, this staunch belief, regardless of the complete lack of evidence in support of their claims slams the door shut and nails it...to any inquiry, the search for further knowledge, or any thirst or hunger for the understanding of our world and our place in it. |
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Date: 9/15/2002 2:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
"Sarcasm"=Keenly ironical or taunting statements=Funk & Wagnalls. I assure you, Deb, that nothing I said was sarcastic...period. |
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Date: 9/15/2002 2:33:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
LACK OF KNOWLEDGE IS NOT A LICENSE TO INVENT FANTASY Thats what I think of evolution, have a good day. |
Date: 9/17/2002 10:06:00 AM
From Authorid: 61104
Well I think that the kids who went to school before thay started all this crap turned out just fine so why fix something that is not broken. It is not going to make anything better for anyone when we start saying what should be taught in schools. I think that if you want to be in control of what your children are being taught then you should homeschool them otherwise just stay out of it and let the school officials do their jobs. *Gothgirl*  |
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Date: 9/17/2002 10:36:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Goth girl your right, all the generations BEFORE the end of the 1950's turned out great! And that is because GOD, religion was still in the schools, its been down hill since then. If you will look at a study on HOW smart people really are when they graduate school now days, well heck, some of them cant even read past the third grade level, just the system just pushes them along in order to get them out of their hair. Look at the way some people here on usm write and spell. AND gosh dang gee, they ARE still IN SCHOOL. Nope it wasnt broken, but people like o'hare and others tried to fix it and instead caused this mess we have on our hands today. |
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Date: 9/17/2002 2:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 54987
Firstborn I agree with some aspects of your reply about education and its a whole new debate. However, I do not subscribe to the belief that is is through a lack of religion in schools, but bad practice, and wrong thinking about what education should be. But don't get me onto that cos I'll just blow my top LOL. Thinker, I understand perfectly your argument and I applaud your common sense. I love your 'goatherders' term - it just cracks me up. Give me five. - Coolade |
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Date: 9/17/2002 4:46:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Okay LMBO!! Fb please explain to me how it is exactly that you came to the conclusion that because religion and God were removed from school, it is the reason that kid's today cannot spell? Oh yeah that is right, nevermind silly me *shakes head* today's kids are required to spell more than just some 4 or 5 letter words like Mary, Jesus, Bible, Son, God, Adam, Eve. They are so busy trying remember to spell all those 7 and 8 letter words like decrepit, gracious, idyllist, that they just didn't have the time to spell simple things like Mary, lamb, and god. So in other words the youngsters of ago could spell good with the little ones and today they can spell good with the big ones. So who was or is the greater of fools? |
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Date: 9/17/2002 9:52:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Coolade:, many many moons ago when I went to school, things were a whole lot different. Hey, hon, rent you a copy of american Graffiti, LOL, perhaps that will help you to understand. The school in my way of thinking takes too much upon themselves as it is. Az: Just as I said to coolade, you too my friend were to young for school in the late fifities and early sixties. You have no clue, how the schools were run and how small towns operated as far as morals went, as most towns, especially small towns all had religion in the schools as well as in the communities and if YOU had no religion, you were deemed an outcast. The reason children can not spell, is because of the lack of morality in the schools today, not just the students but the teachers, all have an attitude of get them through the system, as its all about money. If you will look on line and check you will find out that a great percentage of the school teachers today, CANT EVEN pass the G.E.D. tests, yet somehow they got by and got a certificate to teach. Your sarcasam is refreshing, but only goes to show your own faults in the schooling that you have got. I cant spell perfectly, but after reading some of the posts on usm from kids that are 16-18 years old, my spelling is perfect compared to theirs. I'm not trying to come against people that cant spell. So lets not even go there. To me AZ, the greatest of fools are those that can not learn from anyone as they have all the answers, the biggest fool is one that will take a stand no matter how wrong that stand may be. Oh and just thought I would tell you this, as I was going to tell you six months ago or so, but thought I'd give you a little more time. Many, Many things have gone wrong in your life lately. I'm sure in time you will figure out the reason for this. I see your learning how to use the sarcasm of your friend. However, it makes no points and it doesnt make me mad either. |
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Date: 9/17/2002 11:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 54987
FB you said when you were at school, if someone had no religion (christian obviously)they would be an outcast. Well if that was the case, then we have moved on considerably. I beg to differ with you on what you said about bad spelling equating to lack of morals. I have been involved in the local adult reading skills class as a volunteer. I find that most people over 45 have apalling spelling and they are white bible belt folks. Of course we get young people too, but a lot of them are slow learners for a number of reasons, and not one of the reasons is because they have no morals. Indeed most of them do have morals. - Coolade |
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Date: 9/18/2002 6:03:00 AM
From Authorid: 27046
Firstborn you seem to forget that I have parents that are OLDER than you are and that attended school in both the 50's and the 60's. I also have two grandparents that are in their 80's and one that is in her 90's. I am VERY well aware of how the schools taught and what was acceptable and what was not acceptable. My grandparents were amongst the first people to put roots in the town that I grew up in and they attended a one room school with the rest of the kids in the town. Little House on the Prairie to a T. Trust me religion had nothing to do with the fact that kids went to school and learned. They didn't have the choice, they weren't allowed to go to school, fool around, cut classes, and give the teacher a hard time. If you looked at the teacher cross eyed you got your eyeballs slapped to the back of your head and then you got it again when you got home. My sarcasm has nothing to do with the education that I received, as I am sure the sarcasm that you have presented here on this site has nothing to do with the education that you received. Such as your last line regarding picking up my sarcasm from a friend. I am my own person and I think for myself. I don't need followers to get my point across and I don't need people to back me up in my beliefs or thoughts on things. I am sure because of that sarcasm statement that you made I should go ahead and determine that someone else got a better education than you did, because you used sarcasm. So are you trying to tell me that my aunt died, I crashed my car, my sister was sick from having a baby, my mother is sick, my other aunt almost died, and my grandmother had a stroke because I didn't learn religion in school? Or is it because I don't profess to anyone that will listen to me ramble about how great Jesus is? Just on another note, you may have been an outcast in the south for not having religion, afterall all the south is the bible thumping area of the United States. But I am from the North and no matter which way you slice it the northern states are much higher educated than the southern states. We have a higher standard of learning that far outpasses the southern schools. It has always been this way and will probably always be this way. However I will have to put "Religion teaches spelling and makes good spellers" in the back of my mental roladex and if all else fails with Az, then I know what book to pick up next. |
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Date: 9/18/2002 7:33:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
This comment has nothing to do WHATSOEVER with our friendship, AZ; but your reply ^^ has got to be one of, if not THE BEST replies I have ever seen on this site! **hehehe...um, pick up yer Bible, kids; it'll hep your spellin'** |
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Date: 9/18/2002 7:51:00 AM
From Authorid: 61790
BTW Mythology is condemned as dead/false religions and the religious aspect is treated as nothing more then a joke. If the original worshippers were around today they'd reject it being taught like it is too. *realizes Firstborn made this post and hits him with a rotten trout ~Apoc  |
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Date: 9/18/2002 11:41:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Besides AZ, had you read my comment the right way, you would have seen that while I was talking about religion in the schools, and reading, the point I was trying to make is back then, kids had respect for adults and for themselves to LEARN while in school, they had respect for a higher power and cared about life. AND YES< this was due to religiouse teaching they not only recieved at home but was backedup by the school system. Kids now days, have no respect for adults, hardly any in themselves, dont care if they destroy a school, hit the teachers, call their parents names, steal the family car. What EVER THEY think will gratify them them shall do it. |
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Date: 9/18/2002 12:04:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
According to the StateProfile for the state of new york, Percent of population with less than a high school diploma or equivalent :: 18.5% as to the rest of the nation of only 16.0% The level of Poverty for NewYork is 25 % compared to the rest of the nation of 21% then we have :: The state's public high schools do an excellent or good job preparing students for college. (Preparation) New York at 39% and the rest of the nation at 43%, so no, AZ, I dont think new york is one of the highest in learning. Now actually , I'm DONE with this post as Ya'll are trying to change the subject of the post. So make a new one if you wish, I'll debate you there. |
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Date: 9/18/2002 4:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Actually Firstborn I am not sure what it is you are getting at as to why all this "stuff" has happened to me so why don't you just spill it? Secondly WHERE did you get those statistics? I notice that you did the statistics of NY state versus the rest of the nation. BIG difference when you are comparing a state to the nation and not state by state individually. I don't need statistics to know what I already know. I could move down south with my northern high school education and snag up a better and higher paying job that a native of the state. THAT is fact. Employers in the south will pay a person that has lived upstate more money to work in their company than they will their "own" people. There is no way on earth that my sister could have stayed here in NY and gotten a job making $125,000 a year in the field that she is in. However since she moved to NC 5 years ago she has had 3 different jobs that paid her no less than $100,000 grand a year where someone up here wouldn't dream of paying someone that much, cause up here the educated people are a dime a dozen. FYI.....YOU changed the debate into something it wasn't. Not those of us that are replying.. |
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Date: 9/18/2002 4:26:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
And for the record I never specified a state in my comment. I said NORTHERN education is at a higher learning scale than the southern education... |
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Date: 9/18/2002 4:58:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Of course they pay higher there hon, as living expenses are so much higher. I'm not saying your sister is stupid, I'm just saying what the statistics of the overall nation is and where NY stands. Dont talk to me about it, talk to the government as they posted the statistics. Go to the government site, they have them there. |
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Date: 9/18/2002 5:00:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
No Firstborn you have that backwards.....the SOUTH pays that money for people with a northern education...NOT the other way around..and WHAT site specifically...If you did some searching you would see that out of 7 schools that rate the highest in education standards for last years school year. 5 out of 7 of those states are in the NORTH. |
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Date: 9/18/2002 6:50:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
I know what I read, and not just on one site, wont do your homework for you and seeing as you NEED to have the last word. You may have it, good day. |
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Date: 9/18/2002 7:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 54987
FB what do you mean you can only take my word for that. Do you mean I may be lying? My experience counts for something surely. I think where you shot yourself in the foot is when you said that bad spelling is a result of no morals. Yeah I think we better end this debate as it's clearly turning into a joke. - Coolade |
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Date: 9/18/2002 9:39:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Coolade, you did not show a link as to where this information comes from, nor did you prove your facts, I'm not saying your lying, I'm saying you have not proven your facts, its only your opinion based apparently on what you have seen, but I for one do not know it for fact. I did not say in those words that bad spelling was because of a lack of morals. If you will re read it, I was talking about lack of morals and then went on to say that bad spelling was a factor when children do NOT give a flip about anyone or anything around them. They dont wish to learn, I'm not saying all children, but I've seen plenty that would rather slap the teacher, pull guns, they go to school because its required or that they are tired of being put in Detention or state homes. WHY are children acting this way? Because they have nothing in their spirits, and as far as I'm concerned the only way one can CARE for anyone else, including themselves is IF they have some kind of backround that involves GOD. My opinion, of course and many others also. The joke on this debate is that everyone is for every program there is that is being done at school, ANYTHING GOES, BUT CREATION AND A LEARNING ABOUT HOW THIS WORLD CAME INTO BEING. The joke is they would rather teach the evolution theory, and SURE thats OK as far as everyone is concerned, but really look how many get nervouse when one mentions creation. |
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Date: 9/18/2002 9:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Fb I am just curious as to why what is good for the goose is not good enough for the gander. Here I ask that you provide me with the link to where you got your information from and you tell me that you are not going to do my homework for me, then you turn around the Coolade and tell her that she provided no links as to where she got her information and she presented no facts. All of a sudden through a calm intelligent debate you have turned around and are suddenly lashing out, telling us the debate is over, that we stepped off topic, and that I NEED to have the last word therefore I can have it. It seems you don't like being backed into a corner and when your side gets shaky it's all of a sudden the end of the debate. Figures... |
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Date: 9/18/2002 10:01:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
http://measuringup2000.highereducation.org/stateglance.cfm http://measuringup2000.highereducation.org/stateprofilenet.cfm It could have been one of these ones according to the history on my computer. I'm not backed into a corner, AZ, its just that this post is old and I'm tired of hearing the same thing over and over again. |
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Date: 9/18/2002 10:03:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
By the way there is no joke on this debate. Many of the people clearly stated, and the ones that are STILL here, that we have no problems with all religions and all theories being taught on a BY DEFINITION basis.....AS it IS done right now. What we have a problem with is any theory or religion being taught in depth. For you it is okay that the teacher stand up and teach creation in full context and throughly because hey if it scores a few more Christians all the more better. But if it came down to teaching them all in depth, I can't see how the Christian parents wouldn't have a problem with the fact that they have been raising their child Christian their first 15 years of life and because a teacher taught them all about Wicca they have now decided that they want to convert. It is rusty on both sides of the coin here FB. Christians fight to get their way taught and to keep their God as a part of our nation, just as the other religions fight to make them recognized by not singling any one religion out...WHAT is the difference? |
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Date: 9/18/2002 10:03:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Besides its NOT up to me to supply the links for the opinion that coolade has given, IF one is going to say what coolade said, then they should have some facts to back it up. |
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Date: 9/18/2002 10:04:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Well that was my argument to you...you presented percentages and then provided no link as to where you found them...that was all I was asking for... |
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Date: 9/18/2002 10:11:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Fb I looked at the links that you provided and if I am seeing correctly by the full state charts that list everything...the highest of scores by the majority are scored by schools in the NORTHERN states....like I said.. |
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Date: 9/18/2002 10:16:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Of course, Planned Parenthood gets government grants to hand out contraceptives to teenagers. And, as the above study indicates, sex education is bringing them a lot of business. http://www.pregnantpause.org/youth/sexed.htm So yes, they do hand out pills. So what if some want to convert AZ, it sounds exciting to them, but eventually they figure it out and Go back to God. Not a problem. And re-read your links AZ, your wrong. Good night. |
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Date: 9/18/2002 10:23:00 PM
From Authorid: 54987
Why do people always ask for website links to back up their arguments. Granted some of that may be necessary when one isn't in the field. However, empirical knowledge is what I'm using. It is my experience. If someone can come up with relevant data on lack of morals causing bad spelling then by all means furnish us with them. I would further remind you that I was not mistaken in my reading of your reply, it went: "The reason children can not spell, is because of the lack of morality in the schools today, not just the students but the teachers, all have an attitude of get them through the system, as its all about money. " I rest my case - Coolade |
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Date: 9/18/2002 10:33:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Fb okay this is the last thing I am going to say because it is apparent that you cannot pay attention to what is going on in your debate. Planned Parenthood is a CLINIC, with licensed doctors that are legally able to supply and write out a prescription for birth control pills. SCHOOLS are not handing out birth control pills. IT IS ILLEGAL. I have read the links that you provided and my conclusion on the matter is still the same. In all areas those marked in bold print were the highest scoring in that category. When you weigh it all out FB...more than half the schools that are the highest of scorers and in more than one category of education.....are NORTHERN state schools. Conneticut, Rhode Island, Mass, Penns was mentioned a few times..New Jersey....Maine....Now I dunno about you but when I look at map, I know two things.....the top of the map is the northern part and those states I mentioned ^^^^^ are at the top. Conclusion...Need I explain? Fb funny how is it so THEY all go back to God? Well what about the people that have died and were still of another religious denomination other than Christianity. Obviously they didn't make their way back to what YOU think is right. They stuck with what THEY believed was right....JUST as you do with yours. |
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Date: 9/18/2002 10:34:00 PM
From Authorid: 27046
Coolade for the record I agree with you... |
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Date: 9/18/2002 10:58:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
Ya, ok AZ,if you say so. That still has nothing to do with rather Creation should be taught in school or not. In my opinion I think it should be, it deserves to be explored just like evolution does. The ones that ARE true believers, not just pew sitters usually do go back to God, if they dont, its their loss, not Gods. And its not just what I THINK is right, its what I KNOW is right. And as far as so many things going wrong in your life, it is because AZ, you say you believe in God, that you believe in Jesus, but every thing you write denies HIM to the core, denies all that HE says, contridicts and comes against. I can say I believe in the easter bunny, but if I keep saying things against that old easter bunny, then the only one I'm fooling is myself. Now, I dont know why its so important to you to think that the northern states are smarter than the southern ones. Your trying to say, that those of the Bible belt are not smart, I'm not from the Bible belt. And I'm sure if I dig even more I can find percentages of all the schools and show your wrong. However this does NOT matter to me. It seem only to matter to you. And of course once again your paying no attention to the post or the point of the post. So I agree, lets just drop the post as it is six days old, but you can add anything else you would like AZ, as we all know that you do have to have the last word in. |
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Date: 9/19/2002 6:12:00 AM
From Authorid: 27046
Fb thanks for proving every single thing I have said on this debate... |
| Date: 9/22/2002 9:41:00 AM From Authorid: 57718 Hey, I agree, so I teach my kid myself LOL |
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Date: 9/22/2002 10:43:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
thank you. |
Date: 9/22/2002 1:24:00 PM
From Authorid: 57225
evolution isn't taught like in depth. its just part of a science unit and they just touch basis on it because its part of what we're supposed to learn. and since people are bringing up the sex education...yeah maybe that should be a parental responsibility but not everyone has a parent or someone who is there for them or who is comforatable talking to them about those thigns. i think having sex ed in school is a good thing for those who havent already been taught and need to know those things.  |
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Date: 9/22/2002 1:27:00 PM
From Authorid: 57225
alright AZ your reply was very good lol but...saying that the north is more educated..? who cares. |
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Date: 9/22/2002 2:28:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
dazzleme, I'm with you, who cares? |
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Date: 9/22/2002 11:50:00 PM
From Authorid: 41374
Point well taken, Firstborn |
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Date: 9/23/2002 10:02:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 16671
stardaze, thank you. |
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