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Date: 7/31/2002 8:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
*STANDS & APPLAUDES* Bravo! and you know what? Through W.A.R.D., Pagan Freedon fighter's, and even here....at USM...I see the EXACT same type of intolerance. Tonight we have ANOTHER fine sister who is planning on leaving after being "bashed"...she was even told to "burn at the stake". AND, who can forget the famous...I would rather be dead, than a Witch?  |
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Date: 7/31/2002 8:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
good post-Pagan Dreamer....very good, indeed |
Date: 7/31/2002 8:38:00 PM
From Authorid: 58923
I'd have been burned.  |
Date: 7/31/2002 8:41:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 57936
alot of people that were not witches were burned because of stupidy its sad to see the world trying to go back to this time  |
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Date: 7/31/2002 8:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
I agree, many died for political motives.... |
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Date: 7/31/2002 8:48:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 57936
Constitution of United States of America, Amendment 1 "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibitin the free excercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Goverment for a redress of grievances." |
Date: 7/31/2002 8:54:00 PM
From Authorid: 13297
My husband and I visited Salem on our honeymoon - what is even more interesting is that the sheriff of the town made people pay for their families food and lodging while they were in jail. He also made the family pay the henchmen when they were killed. He in addition wouldn't allow them to give a family member a proper burial. Giles Corey (sp?) the only man to be crushed to death with stone put a curse on the sheriff and all of Salem. EVERY chief of police since then has had some kind of heart problem. The last sheriff had a heart attack (I believe) and moved to Florida. They no longer have a chief of police and the position will continue to set vacant. It was a very intesting place and very informative about what really went on. cheers,  |
Date: 7/31/2002 8:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 3125
Good post Pagan Dreamer..You know..I had ancestors who were burnt and tortured during the burning times..It is a very sad thing what had happened in the past..We must move on and do all we can to keep peace and to live and let live..We can't continue in fighting and debating over thing which we cannot change..But we can change what happens tomorrrow.. ((hugs))  |
Date: 7/31/2002 8:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Yes, unfortunately due to some people that called themselves "religious," innocent people were called witches and killed. This was a tragedy and I'm glad that this type of radical segregation isn't allowed in America today. I am proud to be a Christian but am ashamed by the actions of people that caused these atrosities. They were playing God and only God is entitled to that role. ;o)  |
Date: 7/31/2002 9:00:00 PM
From Authorid: 19460
i also had an ancestor burnt at the stake. it was wrong. maybe she was a witch, maybe she wasnt... who knows. but so what if she was! i could think of worse things to be! Thanks for posting this   |
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Date: 7/31/2002 9:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
I didn't mean to sound like God would have ever condoned this... because he never would have. ;o) |
| Date: 7/31/2002 9:09:00 PM From Authorid: 55376 It was 300-900 years ago, get over it. Og |
Date: 7/31/2002 9:27:00 PM
From Authorid: 15319
EXCELLENT information for Pagans/Christians alike.  |
Date: 7/31/2002 9:28:00 PM
From Authorid: 55970
Og, just think if you were alive then, and it happened to you. Then how would you feel??? Good post Pagan Dreamer! I am your neice now, because LSG is my USM mommy. LOL! Tell me what you think. Huggs! Blessed be! *Jewel Fernandez*  |
| Date: 7/31/2002 9:30:00 PM From Authorid: 55376 I would be dead. I would not be feeling anything about it.Og |
Date: 7/31/2002 9:36:00 PM
From Authorid: 50435
I don't dispute the facts. But I WILL say that I am severly disappointed with you guys now. Such a shame...  |
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Date: 7/31/2002 9:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 50435
Let me clarify. There is nothing wrong with this post in general. Interesting. It's the spirit that I fear that it has been posted in that disappoints me... |
Date: 7/31/2002 9:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 3321
You fail to mention a location for all of this (Europe), and what religion persecuted the "witches" (most of witch were mere smart folk who were by all other standards quite religious God fearing folk). Just thougt I would point that out...  |
| Date: 7/31/2002 9:45:00 PM From Authorid: 55376 Do you mean the ...Evil Christian, Poor Mistreated Pagan... spirit, Gallytuck? Og |
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Date: 7/31/2002 9:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 50435
Sorta Og, but not quite. It's hard to explain. Let's just say that I gave lots of credit where I believed it was due. Now I am starting to question my judgement... |
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Date: 7/31/2002 9:51:00 PM
From Authorid: 3321
All of this happened before thoughts of a Constitution for the U.S. (which did not even exist yet) crossed anyone's mind, so there is no point in broadcasting the First Amendment here. It doesn't pertain to the information you have given us in the least bit. As Og said, it was hundreds of years ago and the most anyone can do is learn from the mistake of religious/ethnic genocide (not that people actually do...take a look at Israel and Palestine, Serbs and Albanians). Not to mention, when Salem had the rash of Witch Hunts, there is no possible way you could stretch the number killed to even fifty... |
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Date: 7/31/2002 9:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 3321
Yes, Gallytuck, the post is interesting, but as I pointed out without proper references to dates, locations, and sources cited it lacks any real historic accuracy. And I can, for the most part, recognize the pointing of fingers tone it was written in and replied to with. |
Date: 7/31/2002 9:54:00 PM
From Authorid: 277
I'm all for it being wrong back then, but people are not being killed today because of their wiccan beliefs. Just because someone doesn't agree with the wiccan religion does not me they want to burn you at the stake. This is a debate section so if you post something that is debateable about wiccans expect it to be debated. I do have one question though. I've seen a couple replies above by authors stating their ancestors were burned at the stake. How would you know if it happened in the 1500's? I mean, I can't even trace back past my great grandparents. Seriously, how do you know? Do you know or is that just being said to help your debate.  |
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Date: 7/31/2002 9:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 277
You know, being black in America would have got you to be a slave without answering any of the above questions. Which would be worse? Burned at the stake or be a slave your whole life? |
Date: 7/31/2002 9:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 33925
Very informative post..but...like some others said..this was the PAST..Are we to be condemned and reminded forever because of this..and did you know that Christians were also burned, hung and stoned as well?? You know..not to bring race into this..but..Years ago we also had slavery..should we all pay for something that WE today had no part in?? This was back during a time of extreme ignorance and fear..things are different now..*sigh*..I just think that its time to STOP with the guilt trips and move on..  |
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Date: 7/31/2002 10:00:00 PM
From Authorid: 277
I see we share the same brain, LadyLuck...lol! |
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Date: 7/31/2002 10:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 3321
Every religion has blood looming over it in some way-it only takes a little research to find it. |
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Date: 7/31/2002 10:04:00 PM
From Authorid: 33925
LOLOL..Did I leave the door open again Hawk?? |
Date: 7/31/2002 10:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 20847
My my wasnt this written in a bitter tone... It's done and over... U didnt live there, NOTHING makes it personal for u...  |
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Date: 7/31/2002 10:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 277
Persephone, To find it all the way back to 1100-1700 is more than "a little" research don't you think? |
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Date: 7/31/2002 10:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 277
Sorry, LadyLuck, I'll put the beer back in your fridge. Do you think we should pay wiccans/witches retributions (sp) to wiccans/witches because their ancestors were burnt at the stake? |
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Date: 7/31/2002 10:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 3321
Hawk, the only research I'll do for topics that don't deal with schoolwork is internet...that's the type I'm talking about. You won't find me in a library entranced by books just to find out what happened 900 years ago. But a "little" prior research on the web wouldn't kill her. |
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Date: 7/31/2002 10:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 33925
Good Lord No!! Then we will have to pay all the other downtrodden groups restitution..Im sorry but I do well to feed MY family..LOL |
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Date: 7/31/2002 10:09:00 PM
From Authorid: 277
restitution..thank you...not retribution...lol! |
| Date: 7/31/2002 10:10:00 PM From Authorid: 55376 Yes, Hawk, I am waiting for that reperations lawsuit.LOL Og |
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Date: 7/31/2002 10:11:00 PM
From Authorid: 3321
Oh dear...please tell me that's not the next thing on the agenda? Japanese internment reimbursement was plausible...slaves, not, witch hunts, most definitely not... |
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Date: 7/31/2002 10:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 277
Don't foeget the Indians, Persephone. Reservations aren't enough for all the land that was taken. |
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Date: 7/31/2002 10:38:00 PM
From Authorid: 3125
Hi Hawk.. I, with much help of a few other genealogists, have traced my ancestors back to at least the early 1500's..Genealogy can be a very rewarding experience but is not always easy nor an immediate rewarding quest and I am still working on it..It's a never ending challenge.. I have also traced my lineage back to the early Native American days..(also a strong possiblity of including the Melungeons)..I know for certain that I came through a tribe of Native Americans called Occaneechi/Saponi tribe..This is my Native American line which runs strong on my fathers side(my grandmother full blood)..Also, on my mothers side, I have traced back to very early ancestors from Northern Ireland, Scotland, England, etc..Genealogy can be very interesting (sometimes frustrating) yet rewarding. I would highly recommend genealogy and tracing their ancestors to anyone..BTW..Yes..I did have a couple ancestors burned/tortured/died in prison during the witch burning times..More people of today than you would think had witches as ancestors. It isn't something limited to Pagans/Wiccans,etc of today either.. |
Date: 7/31/2002 10:41:00 PM
From Authorid: 44448
great Post! I'm not a middle aged woman, but even so, I've done everything on this list and am a witch. So I'm torched.  |
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Date: 7/31/2002 10:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 44448
Wow! somebody other than me had an ancestor killed for being a witch! My 9(?) times great grandmother was hung as a witch, though not in Salem. strangely, that is what made me interested in witchcraft in the first place. Once again, great post. I still hate the idiotcy (sp?) of the people who got innocents burned for no reason... |
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Date: 7/31/2002 10:45:00 PM
From Authorid: 3125
POOR ME!! Part Indian, had some black Indian people who were slaves, couple witches as ancestors,and was born in WV, making me a hillbilly, and many Christians in my family..Woe is me!! Boo-hoo-hoo!! |
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Date: 7/31/2002 10:46:00 PM
From Authorid: 44448
Perse is right though. the first witch-burning, hanging, etc took place in Europe. |
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Date: 7/31/2002 10:48:00 PM
From Authorid: 44448
In Salem, 19 people were hung, Giles Corey pressed to death. that much I know. There were a few scattered killings in other places in the NA contient, but the vast majority took place in Europe. |
Date: 7/31/2002 10:51:00 PM
From Authorid: 44448
Hawk, I know my ancestor was hung, only because my family says so.  I wish i had more supporting evidence, but I couldn't find any old trial records, etc to prove it. It was done in Connecticut. My grandmother found the information out from her great-grandmother, when she was working on my family tree. I think its sad that a relative of mine was hung, but I think its interesting to have that tiny tie to history. |
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Date: 7/31/2002 10:52:00 PM
From Authorid: 277
Thanks, Rusure. It is frustrating researching geneology. I used to have a membership at ancestry.com and didn't have too much luck past the great grandparents. It's in my sisters hands now and she's doing better than I did. LOL@your boo hoo comment.... |
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Date: 7/31/2002 10:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 44448
Oh, Nobody should pay! We did not do any of this. slavery, Indians, witches, Christains, nobody here did any of these things. Nobody is blamed IMO. It is the Past though, but I still like to talk about it. |
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Date: 7/31/2002 10:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 44448
Geneology is awesome! My grandmother just got to her something great grandfater in 1467...WOW...I had no idea how she does that... |
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Date: 7/31/2002 10:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 277
Kat666, It is sad and it is interesting at the same time. However, Christians of today can't be blamed for deaths back then. Just like white people of today can't be blamed for slavery. I'm not saying you think that, but I think that may be one of the reasons this was posted here. |
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Date: 7/31/2002 10:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 44448
Hawk, thanks, I suddenly saw it looked like my comments qwere directed at people now, and thats not what I meant. Thanks for understanding. |
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Date: 7/31/2002 10:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 44448
Okay, I think I've blotched this post nicey...grr...I wish I could manage to say things in just one or two posts...lol |
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Date: 7/31/2002 11:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 3321
Sorry, Hawk, you're right. Reservations are most definitely not enough. |
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Date: 7/31/2002 11:28:00 PM
From Authorid: 3125
Hawk..Truly not wanting to start anything whatsover..But..Much of the great needless suffering of mankind has been recorded in history..As we know, witches were burned at the stake, hanged, tortured, etc by some who profess to be Christians and by others in politics,etc.. Even further back, we find witches being stoned to death, among others who were convicted of crimes, etc..There are also historical records showing that many of those who believed in God suffered greatly at the hands of the pagan/idolatry world, right up to the early Christian days..The pagans hanged, tortured, burnt, threw them in pits with wild hungry animals,threw them in a ring at Colliseums with lions,etc, to entertain higher authorities, beheaded them, etc..All this arguing about what happened in the past is so ridiculous..Are we yet that primitive that we cannot see that this was barbaric at the least? Can't we understand that fighting about what has been done cannot change anything, and none of us alive today are to blame for what happened then?..The way we fight over such silly things, I do wonder which of us would be guilty of what if we had lived in those days..Regardless,We have come a long way..We have our problems of today to solve..Let's learn and live and let live.. |
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Date: 7/31/2002 11:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 50435
Please don't start with the Reservations. Guess what's killing the Native population! Get them out into society. They won't lose their culture. Take a look at the Jews. They're all over the planet and they're still Jews. Imagine that. As for land that was 'taken'. That's what the world was like back then. Sad, but true. If the Dutch had taken control they would have just eliminated the entire Native population. We owe nothing. Most of you come from heritages that were not initially native to its current homeland. With the exception of Afrikaaners, Africans can claim origins in the same area of modern occupation. Oriental peoples may do the same. Irish, Scottish, Welsh, and English is tricky. There were people there on those islands before the Celts. After that you had Normans and Saxons as well as Nordic peoples. They're a mixed bunch. Europeans in general must at some point come to terms that their people were not native to the current homelands. Sure, it may have been a long time ago, and they may not have been the people which they are now at the time of migration, but the fact remains that the descendants of some of the largest ethnic groups in Europe cannot claim origin where they are now based. So what do we do? Dig up the facts and pay out to whichever groups we find were there first? There is also evidence of Caucasian occupation at the very same time of the Asian migration into N.America. Not on the East Coast, as would seem more plausible, but in the N.West and N.Central states. So now it is starting to look like the Natives have either been holding out, or have lost precious information in their oral history. So many things, so much covering up to do... |
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Date: 8/1/2002 12:44:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 57936
Nineteen accused witches were hanged on Gallows Hill: Bridget Bishop George Burroughs Martha Carrier Martha Corey Mary Easty Sarah Good Elizabeth Howe George Jacobs, Sr. Susannah Martin Rebecca Nurse Alice Parker Mary Parker John Proctor Ann Pudeator Wilmott Redd Margaret Scott Samuel Wardwell Sara Wildes John Willard One accused witch (or wizard, as male witches were often called) was pressed to death when he failed to plea guilty or not guilty: these are the ones that died I did not post this to be bitter or ugly but to show we have suffered as much as the next group and to this day we are still hunted in diffrent ways~~~pagan_dreamer~~ |
Date: 8/1/2002 12:59:00 AM
From Authorid: 15033
GallyTuck, There is no such nationality as oriental...there are Asian people though...lol!  |
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Date: 8/1/2002 2:30:00 AM
From Authorid: 50435
I didn't say Orientals were a nationality. Asian means Chinese, Vietnamese, Japanese, Korean, Indian, Pakistani, Sri Lankan, etc. So if I said simply 'Asian', it would not have been specific enough. However, the term 'Oriental', whether correct or not, is taken to mean people of the Mongoloid race. There, happy? LOL :P ... |
Date: 8/1/2002 6:42:00 AM
From Authorid: 53500
Unfortunately this post pretains pretty much to the crimes of the Catholic church, and does not reflect the doctrines of Christianity. I think it's terrible, but as a Christian I don't feel "guilty" for this. Again, these crimes were done by severely misguided people. Besides, what of the 1,000 of Christians killed by pagan Romans. Or the 6 MILLION Jews and 10 MILLION Christians killed by Pagan Germany. Oddly you never hear about that, and the latter event happened less then 80 years ago. You don't have to go back too far in history to see persecution of a religious group.  |
| Date: 8/1/2002 8:00:00 AM From Authorid: 55376 Pagan Germany? Og |
Date: 8/1/2002 8:05:00 AM
From Authorid: 25828
yes pagan germany, hitler was very much into magick and psychics and the supernatural....pagans.  |
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Date: 8/1/2002 8:06:00 AM
From Authorid: 53500
The Nazis. Under their "war god" Whoton. You don't think the Nazis were Christians do ya Og? |
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Date: 8/1/2002 8:09:00 AM
From Authorid: 53500
Thanks for backing that Heather. |
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Date: 8/1/2002 8:11:00 AM
From Authorid: 25828
WWII is an interest of mine so i know hitler believed in the occult 53500 |
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Date: 8/1/2002 9:26:00 AM
From Authorid: 53500
Heather<<There's a great book called the Nazis and the Occult. (or something to that effect) Highly recommend if you haven't read it already. |
Date: 8/1/2002 9:57:00 AM
From Authorid: 51173
Hitler actually introduced a program to lead his elite troops, such as the Gestapo and the Waffen SS out of worship of Christianity (and into the worship of the Germanic war god Wotan), due to the fact so many Concentration Camp operators were having difficulty following orders to kill unarmed women and children. It seems their Christian compassion got in the way of their duties. There is a postscript in one of the Time/Life books on WWII, on the SS, that discusses the plan. Peace, Tom  |
| Date: 8/1/2002 11:08:00 AM From Authorid: 55376 Whatever beliefs Hitler held(they seem to be a mixture of different faiths) does not make WWII Germany Pagan. Og |
| Date: 8/1/2002 11:13:00 AM From Authorid: 55376 Whatever beliefs Hitler held(they seem to be a mixture of different faiths) does not make WWII Germany Pagan. My take on atrocities committed in the name of religion is usually there is an underlying cause that has little to do with religion. Og |
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Date: 8/1/2002 11:23:00 AM
From Authorid: 25828
i didn't know anything about wotan..i'll have to check into that. thanks 8-) |
Date: 8/1/2002 11:48:00 AM
From Authorid: 52826
wow! now u see... i wouldnt have gotten along in that time very much. hmmmmmmmmmm *applause* nice post! really gets you thinking!!!!!  |
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Date: 8/1/2002 12:33:00 PM
From Authorid: 53500
Og<<<Well it might not make Germany of WWII Pagan, but it was under a "government" that was pagan, so that in turn sort of represents the country at the time. Just like the USA is often consider a Christian nation, regardless of how many religious groups call it home. And I agree with you, that often the atrocities done in the name of religion, have little if anything to do with the principles and doctrines of that religion. We must in those cases, throw the blame on humans, not the religion. |
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Date: 8/1/2002 12:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 25828
ego ..that's what it has to do with. huge egos (hitler's being a good example......though, with all iknow about the REALLY weird things he liked and weird parts of his psychology - i have to wonder if deep down he didn't have a very very very poor ego......) you people don't even want to know what freaky stuff he was into, and, it wouldn't pass the ratings anyway 8-P yuck! |
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Date: 8/1/2002 1:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 50435
Hitler had a thing for the Aryan culture. He also had a thing for making things up to suit his purposes. He tried to rewrite history to gloryify Aryan traditions. It had little to do with the worship of gods and lots to do with creating pride. His thing was myths and legends, not for any religious value, but because they make great bedtime stories and have a neat effect if you can actually make people believe them. I would not call Nazi Germany pagan. I wouldn't call them Christian either... |
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Date: 8/1/2002 1:46:00 PM
From Authorid: 51173
I agree, Og. Hitler's use of religion was for political manipulation purposes only. I don't see really very many truely "religious" persecutions on a wide scale outside the twentieth century. What few there were in the past were pagan Rome persecuting Jews, pagan Rome throwing Christians to the lions, Saul and the Jewish Sanhedren persecuting the early Church, the later Church returning the favor to the Jews (and then some), the upper caste Hindus kicking the untouchables while they're down, and Islam basically pimpslaping on everybody. In the twentieth century there have been more religious persecutions than in the past 25 centuries combined, but they are still not organized the way something like the Inquisition was. Maybe you know of some more, Og? That might make a really good post --- "Real persecutions in the world today"! Peace, Tom |
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Date: 8/1/2002 2:51:00 PM
From Authorid: 3321
Hmmm...I never knew that about Hitler. I knew he was into the occult but never figured him for Pagan...just because the religion I had learned about was so peaceful. Just goes to show every religion has its bad apples... |
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Date: 8/2/2002 6:00:00 AM
From Authorid: 25828
hitler wasn't exactly 'pagan' in that he didn't believe the religion, what he wanted was some occult results. he wanted whatever religion he thought might help him achieve what he wanted...and he thought magick was the way - - he didn't know what he was talking about, he asked others and got the help of others trying to make things go his way - that is all, he was not really of that religion, he wanted that religion to work for him. |
| Date: 8/9/2002 5:03:00 PM From Authorid: 61384 all righty then, there are some pretty mean answers here from people who seem to be Christians. I am a Pagan, and I agree with the person who wrote this. |
Date: 9/19/2002 4:35:00 PM
From Authorid: 19927
wow..ok  |
Date: 7/24/2005 2:22:00 PM
From Authorid: 16376
I am so glad I wasn't alive back then, unless of course reincarnation is real...LOL.  |
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