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Date: 6/26/2002 12:41:00 PM
From Authorid: 53549
the reason of that id the "under god" part some of the religions dont believe in "god" or a god...and they would be affened to have to say it and the costitution does give us freedom of religion...WildChild  |
Date: 6/26/2002 12:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 55255
omg thats hillarious is that true thats sad but funny none the least  |
Date: 6/26/2002 12:46:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 49025
My opinion for what it's worth!  This country was founded by men during a time when religion played a major part of life. Obviously times of changed but what does that say? Just because you don't believe in GOD does that you can't pledge your allegiance to this country? The Pledge of Allegiance is not about pledging your allegiance to GOD. It's about protecting our country and the beliefs and freedoms we have.  |
Date: 6/26/2002 12:51:00 PM
From Authorid: 3395
I have debated this subject with my friends long before this ever happened. I think it's okay to say "one nation, under God,"...it's the way it's always been and some people spend way too much time trying to make everything politically correct. I'd still say it even if they changed it, if I were back in school. Good Post!   |
Date: 6/26/2002 12:52:00 PM
From Authorid: 12835
Next it's the money as it states "In God we Trust". Next thing you know we won't be able to discuss the name God outside of home or place of worship. The terrorists don't need to take us down with bombs, we are doing it to ourselves within. It's a sad day in my opinion. God Bless America...  |
Date: 6/26/2002 12:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 23610
I agree with the decision. One needs to also ask themself why in 1954 did they add the words "under God" to the pledge of allegiance? What was the purpose and motives at that time. Some who disagree with this decision will try to make it sound extreme and against God.....when in fact what the issue is about is the government sponsoring religion. It does not say you cannot pray, believe in God, or even say the word God. Let's not get hysterical here....it's about government sponsorship.  |
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Date: 6/26/2002 12:56:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 49025
I agree with you wholeheartedly. It's a shame. Political Correctness has been a major down fall. We are always so concerned about hurting other peoples feelings that we let everyone walk all over ours. |
Date: 6/26/2002 12:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 45619
you know....i think some ppl are just way too anal about tuff these days and have way too much time on their hands! you think they could find something better to do than to debate every little miniscual thing that comes up! i mean, c'mon ppl it's tradtition, accept it and move on!  |
Date: 6/26/2002 12:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 9130
I am really sick of all this political correct NONSENSE.  |
Date: 6/26/2002 1:02:00 PM
From Authorid: 44850
eh, well, me personally i am glad that children won't be reciting it ... not neccerarily because i don't want people saying it, but there is always those few people that would feel uncomfortable *i would happen to be one of these people* saying it, therefore being ridiculed by others in their class/classes .... a friend of mine was instructed by his father NOT TO SAY IT, no matter what (he was very young at the time) because his father saw it as facist ... to pledge (promise) allegience (loyalty under all circumstances) was viewed to father to not say anything bad about the government and to just let them do their jobs (granted, it was in the mid 70's, so everyone was skeptical about everything) ... so, ANYHOW, my friend had was labled as strange, outcast, unamerican, blah, blah, blah all the way up through middle school ... funny how things like that seem to stay in your mind ...  |
Date: 6/26/2002 1:03:00 PM
From Authorid: 46320
I agree with St Pete, it is a sad day for our country. I have always thought if you don't like what the pledge says, then you do not have to say it. Why not just let everyone who wants to say "One nation under God" say it. I know it is the seperation of state and religion, but....Sad day indeed. Be Good...  |
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Date: 6/26/2002 1:03:00 PM
From Authorid: 23610
Slavery was once traditional.....how logical is that argument? |
| Date: 6/26/2002 1:08:00 PM From Authorid: 55376 The answer to this problem is school vouchers. The major problem we face today is not religion encroaching on the state, it is the state encroaching in all areas of our lives.When you have an all encompassing state seperation of church and state means abolishment of religion. Og |
Date: 6/26/2002 1:11:00 PM
From Authorid: 3263
Well, they do have a point. The question is, what now? Omit that part? Change it? "...under God, Allah, Buddah, the Goddesses..." maybe they can change it to "under sky" since that's something we ALL have in common. Or, maybe they will just drop the pledge altogether, which would be a shame.  |
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Date: 6/26/2002 1:13:00 PM
From Authorid: 3263
Good point St Pete!! All we gotta do is add a letter, and it will become a 4 letter word *gasp* |
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Date: 6/26/2002 1:20:00 PM
From Authorid: 44850
sorry, with mylast comment, i kinda drifted from the debate, but i really don't see why everyone is so upset with it being taken out ... your pleading allegience to your country, not god ... why are you so upset that god is being taken out of the state laws, doctrine, etc .... as i have said in prior posts, the beauty of this country is that we have freedom of religion, and that freedom comes about by going by STATE and GOVERNMENT laws first ... then religion comes into play ... they are SEPERATE, not together ... does saying one less phrase really upset you that much? if you want to do some sort of praying, bow your head, keep it to yourself, and pray ALL YOU WANT ... besides, this is just laying groundwork to prevent other policies in the future to combine church and state .... eh, i dunno . . . i guess i just want to know why in the world everyone is soooo upset that the words 'under god' (gasp) might be taken out of an allegience to a flag .... |
Date: 6/26/2002 1:21:00 PM
From Authorid: 22080
FINALLY WOOH im so happy i read that and my arms shot in the air and did a home alone YES!  |
Date: 6/26/2002 1:24:00 PM
From Authorid: 25828
they should take out the offensive words..not ban the pledge...'under god' is the only part they find offensive..BUT this is not final you all, there is much more to this story - it still has to go through an appeals process...AND it only affects nine states..this was in the 9th circuit court...so - only 9 states out of the US are even affected by the ruling today.  |
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Date: 6/26/2002 1:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 25828
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&ncid=716&e=1&u=/ap/20020626/ap_on_re_us/pledge_of_allegiance --here is the full story |
Date: 6/26/2002 1:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 17516
Dear Author, since the words "under God" were not added to the pledge until 1954 AND the founding fathers did not write it AND you give no evidence that the founding fathers wanted us to be a religious nation, what you are just giving us here is your opinion, as you stated.  |
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Date: 6/26/2002 1:26:00 PM
From Authorid: 25828
and frog lady..the founders didn't put that in the constitution...it was only instated in 1954..the part about 'under god' ......so, our founding fathers DIDN"T want religion in there..cool huh? |
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Date: 6/26/2002 1:27:00 PM
From Authorid: 25828
good, lady nyx one of the few that knew we added that part..it has not 'always been that way' |
Date: 6/26/2002 1:33:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
How sad...The idea of "seperation of church and state' was originally meant to keep the government out of our churches, to support "freedom of religion", it has since been twisted to suit the needs of a few and keep religion out of our government. It's all part of the "anti-God movement"...or might it be put "antichrist"  |
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Date: 6/26/2002 1:36:00 PM
From Authorid: 44850
kc, i don't understand . . . why would it be considered to be anti god to not mention it when you are pleding an allegience to a flag ... its not that anyone is saying anything about god, that's the thing, its not god bashing, nor is it god promoting ... its just taking him/her out of the equation, point blank .... god has nothing to do with one's loyalty to the country, so why even mention it? |
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Date: 6/26/2002 1:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 25828
i think the answer is to just leave out those two words....i mean..we CERTAINLY don't need to do away with the pledge all together...and LOL @ the pun KC 8-P |
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Date: 6/26/2002 1:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
More and more Sexxxy Penguin I am seeing the "elimination" of reference to a God. No, it's not "God bashing" or "God promotion" but "God elimination". It's the "political correctness" gone to the extreme, it's a few imposing what "offends" them upon an entire country, I think that's a communist ideology...sad, but true... |
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Date: 6/26/2002 1:46:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
Another "communist ideology"...What's good for one is good for all...<<not much of a democracy there... |
Date: 6/26/2002 1:52:00 PM
From Authorid: 15394
I have mixed feelings about it... but agree with the decision. why not just have it say one nation, indivisible, with liberty yadda yadda... why make it religious? |
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Date: 6/26/2002 1:52:00 PM
From Authorid: 25828
i think what they are saying KC is that the democratic thing to do is take everyone into account. not just the ones that believe in christianity....what they are saying is that what is good for one IS NOT good for all - they're saying to each his own.....they're saying they recognize that not everyone in the nation is under god. my original thought was that it should say 'under A god'...but, that would still leave out the atheists.....god should be eliminated from anything that has to do with governing a group of people where not everyone believes in him/her. |
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Date: 6/26/2002 1:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 9130
You guys do realize COINS still say "IN GOD WE TRUST" LOL I almost posted THAT as a debate but I decided to say it here because it sort of applies-- If they are taking out the pledge of allegance due to the words "under god" then WHY do our COINS still say IN GOD WE TRUST?????????? |
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Date: 6/26/2002 1:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 44850
well, you are correct, its god elimination in STATE and GOVERNMENT, God doesn't write our state laws, so, leave him out of it .... but, that's just my opinion, and i can respect yours (as long as you understand that i am not trying to eliminate god from people's lives, just my state laws) as well .... |
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Date: 6/26/2002 1:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 25828
they'd never change the coins or bills dizzy...would take too much effort to get them all out of circulation and print more..but yes, logically following this decision they are unconstitutional too - but they will stay the same... |
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Date: 6/26/2002 1:58:00 PM
From Authorid: 44850
dizzy, you are absolutely correct, those should be taken off, too ... IMO. |
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Date: 6/26/2002 1:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
I can see your point Heather, I guess what erks me is small groups making decisions that effect us all...I just wish more decisions where brought before the people of this country so we all had some input rather than a few who are trying to be "politically correct..." |
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Date: 6/26/2002 2:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 44850
kc, i can understand you feeling that way, but it was a court decision, not something a few people did and all of a sudden it changes ... it was a vote from the supreme court, not a vote of the people ... |
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Date: 6/26/2002 2:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
Exactly Sexxxy Penguin, a supreme court, 9 or 11 members deciding for us all...a panel of appointed people by elected officials. So, in a sense, we did get a say, but it still erks me, LOL |
Date: 6/26/2002 2:10:00 PM
From Authorid: 6358
I think it's a personal choice, if you don't like it, don't say it.  |
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Date: 6/26/2002 2:11:00 PM
From Authorid: 15394
hmmm arent those 9 or 11 people there to uphold the constitution... and wasn't the constitution warped in 54 then when it was added?? I dunnow... |
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Date: 6/26/2002 2:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 44850
yeah, i guess the way that i see it, when it comes to such things such as your countries flag and patroitism, it should include EVERYONE, not just those that believe in god |
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Date: 6/26/2002 2:21:00 PM
From Authorid: 9130
I have to say that it really does annoy the heck outta me that the goverment is taking the pledge of allegiance out of schools. I think they are going to far with all this political correctness... no prayer in schools, no pledge of allegance in schools... whats NEXT??? |
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Date: 6/26/2002 2:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 6358
I personally think they should leave it be and let each individual person interpret it the way they want to. |
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Date: 6/26/2002 2:28:00 PM
From Authorid: 44850
what's next you ask ... making churches pay taxes, too ... *ducks underneath bed* |
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Date: 6/26/2002 2:31:00 PM
From Authorid: 9130
sexxxy penguin-- I'd like to respond to the statment you made before my last comment. You say that it should be for everyone, not just those that believe in God... well, you CAN'T please everyone all the time. I think it is a SAD world where people will actually complain that the word GOD is used in a pledge of allegiance!!!! |
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Date: 6/26/2002 2:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 44850
lol, odd, i think its sad when people complain that god SHOULD be in such things such as stating loyalty to your country .... GOD has NOTHING to do with it . . . |
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Date: 6/26/2002 2:40:00 PM
From Authorid: 9130
sexxxy penguin-- well, maybe not, but why take out the whole pledge of allegiance because of that? AND why has it only recently become such a big deal-- people (not here, people in general) are becoming to whiny about minor things like this... |
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Date: 6/26/2002 2:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 44850
well, with bush in office (and being financed through the christian coalition -- not to mention a number of policies he had in texas *such as having to claim a church to recieve welfare*) there is a great fear that the mixing of church and state is going to take effect even more so, and some policies just really would be bad, bad, bad ..... so, start from the bases, and try to rid of all possible church/state references possible ... who knows, i heard they are reprinting money again in a few years ... i wouldn't be suprised if the 'in god we trust' was taken off of it . . . i think that this is just trying to set things up for the future (for example here in nebraska our government has intevened with religion by stating that it wouldn't recognize a homosexual marriage *i am not starting a debate, or stating what i think about that* but it is mixing church and state), and more and more and more of laws like that could be passed if its not stopped right off the bat..... IMO ... |
Date: 6/26/2002 2:50:00 PM
From Authorid: 44850
oh, and as far as the whole, 'taking the pledge of alligence out' thing . . . well, that's what the decision was ... is it unconstitutional or not .... there is no "if it wasn't for this word" option in the court ruling ... if its not a, it must be b ... even if it misses being 'a' by one word . . . it still isn't 'a' ... (too many logic classes LOL, sorry)  |
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Date: 6/26/2002 2:50:00 PM
From Authorid: 23610
Dizzy, I want to respond to your question as to why is this happening now, at this time. I believe it is because people are becoming more open minded and people are also finding the courage to stand up for their rights under the constitution even though they know they will be ridiculed by the "majority" religion in this country. People tend to forget that much of the purpose of putting our rights into writing in the constitution was to protect the rights of even the minority. As for those who believe that this country is "eliminating" God, I don't see that happening at all. I have yet to see any person persecuted for practicing their religious beliefs in any places other than public and government institutions. It is sensationalism to try to spin this into an anti-God conspiracy. If anything this is the government protecting the right of each individual to the freedom of their own belief without being forced to be molded into another. |
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Date: 6/26/2002 3:00:00 PM
From Authorid: 12835
So Penquin, lets put the allegience back in and take out the word God. Then, according to some, it would not be unconstitutional would it. |
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Date: 6/26/2002 3:03:00 PM
From Authorid: 44850
yes, that's exactly correct. |
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Date: 6/26/2002 3:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 23610
If the pledge of allegiance did not contain the words "under God" I agree that it would be acceptable in schools. |
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Date: 6/26/2002 3:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 12835
Might as well take out "indivisable " it does not apply now.... |
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Date: 6/26/2002 3:26:00 PM
From Authorid: 44850
lol, i thought that it was taken out in 1954, when they put 'under god' in there ... |
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Date: 6/26/2002 3:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 23610
That's not why they should take out "indivisable"....they should take it out because it's so hard for the little children to say....and they don't know what it means anyway. LOL. |
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Date: 6/26/2002 3:43:00 PM
From Authorid: 15394
we can be divisible in our religious belief, but that doesn't make anyone less patriotic because they don't believe in the same God as the pledge refers to. Patriotism and religion do NOT have to equate |
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Date: 6/26/2002 3:54:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 49025
Maybe I should have posted this in "In The News". I was posting an article I read and voicing my opinion. I'm sorry that I didn't have all the facts first. I'm disappointed about the decision and last I checked it was still my GOD given right to voice my opinion however wrong someone may see it. What's next - the Constitution gets rewritten and we have no rights? Isn't making the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional? Isn't it censorship? Maybe I'm wrong. |
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Date: 6/26/2002 4:00:00 PM
From Authorid: 12835
LOL @ Lady. I can't even say it.... |
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Date: 6/26/2002 4:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
One might also argue, or debate, that removing God and any reference to Him from all government applications would equate to forcing the "belief", "religion" or "position" of atheism on everyone through government. An atheist can not prove their position of no God, it is only a personal belief, that is now being forced upon the rest of us. |
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Date: 6/26/2002 4:12:00 PM
From Authorid: 17516
Question KC: how can you say that a completely secular government would be the same towards a christian as a completely religious government would be towards an atheist? In one system a foriegn belief is in your face all the time, in the other it is benign and one is free to think any thoughts or believe anything they like. |
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Date: 6/26/2002 4:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
*shakes head in disgust* *It is simply NO wonder at all, as to why Americans are looked upon as uneducated buffoons in many other countries* WHY do people REFUSE to LEARN and ACCEPT the Laws of the Constitution!!?? The way it was ORIGINALLY WRITTEN. The words: In God we Trust was ADDED to the Nations Money, and the words: one nation under God was ADDED back in the 50's during the McCarthy Era, when all the Communist Scare was all the rage, and everybody equated atheism with communism (some misguided people still do!) at that time. The original pledge of alegeience is exactly as it is today but WITHOUT the: 'under God' part. The ORIGINAL coins had "E Puribus Unum" (United as One). http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume2/ushistor.htm  |
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Date: 6/26/2002 4:22:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Again, King Caspian, and St Pete, you have been on this site for a long time, and this SAME DEBATE (been done to death already!) has come up time and time again. Most everytime, you are able to read, and or are given direction or links to material to read, regarding the Laws of the Constitution, and regarding Seperation of Church and state. WHY DO YOU NOT WANT TO ACCEPT IT? Now, you know FULL WELL that Christians would be out in droves, marching, protesting and screaming all the way to the polls, if it were to be put on our nations money supply: 'In Buddah We Trust' or 'some other god. The ORIGINAL.....ORIGINAL, ORIGINAL documents, ALL of them never had the "in God we trust" on anything, nor were the Founding Fathers christians. Get educated, learn, and please accept it. It has nothing to do with any freaking "politically correct" thingy. |
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Date: 6/26/2002 4:36:00 PM
From Authorid: 6358
I also think that if it's that much of a problem, they should edit another version instead of banning it altogether in schools. |
Date: 6/26/2002 4:50:00 PM
From Authorid: 15621
ohhhhh St pete..I agree 100%......there will come a time very soon when we will not be able to worship the way we see fit....and MOST people will be glad when that day arives.....but there will also come a day when we will be with the Lord, and WE will be glad when tha tday arrives  |
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Date: 6/26/2002 4:54:00 PM
From Authorid: 15621
Iagree with KC to......the Majority of Xtians should fight all of these things tooth and nail...march on the capitial...just like the Gays do...and the Atheists do.......... |
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Date: 6/26/2002 4:54:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
LOL@Thinker, a "buffoon" LOL, sorry, I'm so "uneducated" I had to look that word up. Buffoon; clown, joker, comedian. I guess I've been called worse. Both you Thinker, and Karma, make very good points. I will concede to this discussion and your points. At least this "buffoon" knows when he's out gunned, LOL. Crowns off to the two of you... |
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Date: 6/26/2002 4:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
But it still ERKS me... |
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Date: 6/26/2002 5:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 23610
Hmmmm.....how does one equate not forcing religion on others with forcing atheism on others? First of all the exclusion of religion in government institutions does not teach atheism....how could it without mentioning God and the lack of belief in him? Second of all....to believe this statement, one would have to admit that they do not teach their own children about their religious beliefs at home....that it can only be done elsewhere. |
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Date: 6/26/2002 5:04:00 PM
From Authorid: 23610
Awwww...but Six Gun, when the Gays and Atheists march on Washington....they have the constitution behind them. Xtians would be marching against the Constitution. By the way....why are you picking on Gays and atheists just be cause the court made a decision regarding the Pledge of Allegiance? What do they have to do with it? |
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Date: 6/26/2002 5:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
When the government assumes a "Godless" position in it's practices, writings, and character, that, Lady Nyx, teaches it. Whether you believe it or not... |
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Date: 6/26/2002 5:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 23610
How is not endorsing a particular religion teaching Godlessness....especially when we know in this country we are free to believe in any religion we want....or none? That is getting a little extreme and paranoid. I can see how some could really spin this into mass hysteria. |
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Date: 6/26/2002 5:13:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
*sighs* Christians equate being "God-less" with "godlessness". Two very DIFFERENT things. Time to get an EDUCATION, my friends; high time. |
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Date: 6/26/2002 5:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
Have you not "learned" anything or been "taught" something by merely observing?? |
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Date: 6/26/2002 5:21:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
Thinker, just because we share different ideas, beliefs, or positions with respect to God and government, does not make you more "educated" or me less educated. |
Date: 6/26/2002 5:24:00 PM
From Authorid: 6860
I agree with Dizzy, I'm sick of being politically correct. I honestly would not be surprised if they declared the Constitution unconstitutional. God is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence and I'm still looking for it in the Constitution, I havent read all of it yet. I will continue to say this in school and they cannot tell me that I can't say it because I have my First Amendment rights.  |
Date: 6/26/2002 5:28:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
You know it always amazes me that people continue to state that this country WAS NOT founded on Christian prinicpals. WELL GEE apparently IT WAS, or why UNTIL they started to throw christian principals out of this country, Did MOST people go to church? AND their were actual MORALS in this country, KIDS actually Obeyed parents and KNew the golden rule. I mean IF THIS country DID not have this going from day one, WHERE IN THE HECK did they learn it?? WHY did 99% of the population DO IT and why IF YOU DIDNT do it, you were outcast? I mean come on guys and gals think about it. Deny it until your blue in the FACE and IT wont change anything! AND YES< today the pledge of Allegiance was declared unconsitiional. OK, one more for the heathen population.  |
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Date: 6/26/2002 5:30:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
And NO heathen is not CALLING names. Heathen is the same as unbeliever> |
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Date: 6/26/2002 5:31:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
King Caspian, I AM more educated on the Constitution, the Laws regarding Seperation of Church & State. You have shown that here. Now, whether you really DO know the all that, but wish to disregard it, or don't WANT it to be the way it is, THAT is another thing. Please go read this: and especially read Phydeaux's reply at the very end: http://www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm263720.html |
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Date: 6/26/2002 5:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
"You can deny until you're blue in the face". THAT applies to YOU who refuse to study the Laws of the Constitution, and REFUSE to read all about the FOUNDING FATHERS. There is NO MISTAKE. When you READ Thomas Paine's "AGE OF REASON" (I've given the link to the works of this great man but no one will check it out for themselves) there will be no doubts whatsoever as to WHO these men were or what they stood for; or WHY they formed the United States. Stop the Lies! Get Clued in. |
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Date: 6/26/2002 5:43:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
THIS link will have all sorts of information regarding the founding fathers. PLEASE READ? http://www.secularhumanism.org/hall-of-fame/paine/ |
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Date: 6/26/2002 6:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 25828
whew lots has gone on since i left this post LOL - let me just answer KC..i understand what you're thinking saying a few decided - but if we left everything up to the majority to decide - it would not inherently be a good thing........i mean...the majority was for hitler in germany..and..i know i know..evil comparison LMAO..but i think it is good proof of the point, the majority does not always want what is right - so why not leave it up to individuals....let it be known that what each person believes is relevant..is okay - that's what they're saying here...each person's beliefs should be considered...not just the majority - |
Date: 6/26/2002 8:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 45158
i think what it means sorry if i offend anyone is one nation under god means that one nation under religion like religion and character is more or of equal importance that the nation  |
| Date: 6/26/2002 8:15:00 PM From Authorid: 55376 Why don't we take the government out of education. Then this constitutionality problem goes away. Og |
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Date: 6/26/2002 9:04:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
thinker:, Thomas Paine is just a man that wrote a book that you happen to agree with. God is just a spirit that had man write a book that I happen to agree with. In history class as children WE WERE taught that the FOUNDING fathers, based this U>S>OF A on Christian prinicpals. I know it was taught in school, I WASNT christian and thought oh gee ok. BUT the point is that is WAS taught in school. HISTORY books DID back it up. Then as the world started to change, as man gave up any compassion on mankind, then the history books started to change, started to be more "politically correct" Yes, you gave me the link to thomas paine, yes I went and read some of his stuff. IT IS all HIS own opinion and anyway that wants to think like HIM will AGree with HIM. I choose NOT to. You know I think the world of you. BUT I still think that by these types of men and so much other stuff that YOU have allowed to sink into your spirit that you dont understand that you hon, are buying into the lie. But then thats just my opinion, just as it is your opinion that we are buying into a lie. |
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Date: 6/26/2002 9:48:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Deb, there is NOTHING whatsoever, about Thomas Paine, and his writings, his Age of Reason, that is a lie. Go find ONE single word or sentence that you think is a lie, POST it, and I will be more than happy to debate it. The TRUTH is that you want to disregard the Constitution, just as many people in goverment do, including and especially President Bush. Leading schoolchildren in a pledge that says the United States is "one nation under God" is as objectionable as making them say "We are a nation 'under Jesus', a nation 'under Vishnu', a nation 'under Zeus' or a nation 'under no god', because none of these can be neutral with respect to religion,"==Circuit Judge Alfred T. Goodwin. Today's ruling, I am certain will not take effect for several months to allow for further appeals. The goverment can ask the court to reconsider, or take its case to the Supreme Court (as I am sure they will), but I am quite sure that it will pass there as well, and its time has come. WAY OVER DUE. It must be returned to the ORIGINAL state (BEFORE the insertion of "under God" at the height of the Cold War when a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, religious leaders and others wanted to distinguish the United states from what THEY regarded as godless communism). YOU can wish to ignore the facts, ignore that the founding fathers were Deists & Atheists, and ignore/refuse to study the words , the writings (which clearly states how they felt about religion) of these men; and you may WANT/WISH it to go away and not be the facts, but don't you dare say that it is a :LIE. Please, go a head, take this DARE. Where is your proof that it is a "Lie"?? I am going to Washington on November 1st and I am prepared to, as are many thousands; to let the goverment and President Bush know that SOMEONE IS PAYING ATTENTION and we are very much against his and many goverment officials blatantly disregarding the Constitution as they have since he took office! |
| Date: 6/26/2002 9:58:00 PM From Authorid: 55583 Ok.. I haven't finished reading all the posts yet, but I keep coming across this certain thing that bugs me. Ok, people keep saying things like "I just wish more decisions where brought before the people of this country so we all had some input rather than a few who are trying to be "politically correct..."" etc. There is the rights of the MINORITY. Because "a few" people don't agree with the Under God part, does not mean they don't have rights. They have just as many as the next person. So just because you believe in God, does not mean you are always right. What if it were "one nation under satan, for liberty.."? I'm sure you would be happy to be rid of that, right? Again, not everyone always agrees, but just because you're in the majority, doesn't mean your right, nor does it mean you should impose your values and philosophies upon others. Just my thoughts so far. ~Zoe~ |
Date: 6/26/2002 10:19:00 PM
From Authorid: 17525
Congress inserted the phrase, "under God" in 1954. Maybe they should take it back out and we wouldn't have all this bickering. Ther are lots of different beliefs that comprise the citizenry of the US now. Congress had no business endorsing God within the context of a national pledge. THEY put it in, THEY should take it out again. Quite simple. Congress HAS reversed itself in the past. It wouldn't be the first time. JMO  |
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Date: 6/26/2002 10:24:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Osiris, That is exactly what SHOULD be. Restore it to the "The UNITED States of America, United as ONE, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all". |
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Date: 6/26/2002 10:51:00 PM
From Authorid: 19092
Thinker, I think that to tell a group of people, or even a single person for that matter, who holds a different belief than you, you maintains a different version of history than you may, and who believes with all their heart in God to " Stop the Lies" that you have in essence called us all "liars". I view that as small minded, intollerant, and down right out of character for you. I'm disappointed...Tossing aside any "history" and speaking of what I have witnessed in my own life, with my own eyes...I have seen prayer removed from our schools, The Ten Commandments removed from court houses, Nativity Scenes outlawed on government or public property (such as parks...), The possible Pledge Allegiance ruled as unconstitutional due to "under God" in its content...and I know of no one who was physically or mentally harmed by any of them. But yet, all these things are or may be removed from our government and also our common lives. I don't view this as freedom, but rather a form of suppression. And I don't take to kindly to being called a "liar" either... |
Date: 6/26/2002 11:04:00 PM
From Authorid: 34476
I have read very few of the replies here (yet), but feel the need to insert this. It applies: From "The Bill of Rights" -- Article I of the U.S. Constitution: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.  |
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Date: 6/26/2002 11:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 15621
May I say Thinker...this is a Debate...and by saying people are uneducated...or less educated on this subject that you..is a fallacy called Ad Hominem..... |
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Date: 6/26/2002 11:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 15621
As is calling people liars......lets play fair shall we |
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Date: 6/26/2002 11:13:00 PM
From Authorid: 17516
King Caspian, I have been harmed by religion being in government. It may not have been enormous harm, but it was harm none the less. Are my rights less because my beliefs are minority beliefs? Is this country based on majority rules? On some things, yes. On others, like constitutional matters no. Our founding fathers formulated the constitution very carefully because they wanted to ensure that no one in government or the government as a whole abused their powers by infringing on it's citizens basic rights. The first amendment is about freedom OF religion, but this also means freedom FROM religion. As an American citizen, I want to be free from having to encounter ANYONE'S religion in a public forum (that I as a taxpayer support). On the other hand, I would just as fiercely go to bat to protect YOUR right to believe and worship as you please in the privacy of your own home, in your church, and in your day to day environment, adding as a caveat to the last part, as long as your worship, etc didn't infringe upon the rights of others. |
Date: 6/26/2002 11:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 34476
One can clearly see this states that the government may not "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." What this means is apparently debateable, as some will say "SEE! NO RELIGION IN THE GOVERNMENT!" That is not what it is saying. It is stating that no BIAS TOWARD any individual religion will be allowed ..... Using the statement "under God" addresses no religious beliefs, other than an extremely generic belief in a divine being. I see no specific religion here. Someone mentioned earlier that if it said "under Satan" all the Christians would be upset. Well... that would be a certain deity now, wouldn't it? Just stating "God" is not religion-specific. To some, God IS Satan! The last time I checked, there were NO laws which stated it was illegal to believe in a divine power. If there were, they would be in direct violation of this article. There is also to be NO prohibition of the free EXERCISE thereof. (Exercise of what? why RELIGION, of course) WHERE is this freedom of religion prohibited? Well... according to OUR BILL OF RIGHTS, NOWHERE within the United States! I realize some will disagree with me, that is why I posted the Article which applies. I will only ask "what word don't you understand" to those who will try to deny any other people their freedom of religion. I'm done ranting and raving now. Thank you, author, for allowing me to vent here  |
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Date: 6/26/2002 11:45:00 PM
From Authorid: 34476
From the Declaration of Independence: "and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them,". One of the apparent 'powers of the earth' they agreed upon was 'nature's god'. (very generic, but a god nonetheless) "WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights ..." The TRUTHS held (apparently by those who signed this document) included the truth that all men are 'endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights'. A CREATOR is mentioned here.... But it isn't specific enough for me to tell, exactly, which god they are talking about. I am quoting this, as others have stated that only the ignorant or uninformed believe a god is mentioned within our founding documents. Please do not try to tell me that there is NO MENTION of a god in our Declaration of Independence. There clearly is. This is evidence of some kind of belief (however basic) that the founding fathers thought there IS a God who "created" at the very least our right to "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness". |
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Date: 6/27/2002 7:27:00 AM
From Authorid: 12835
Very good Paranoid, I was going to post that very point this morning for Thinker. And Thinker, just because you post some link on the net, DOES NOT, make that information true, YOU should know that. There are many here who ARE as or more educated in history as you, as is evident, so please don't espouse to be the most knowlegable person at USM because you are not. I plan today to bring enough information to this post to debate your reasons and thoughts also, but that's ok, it is debate afterall... |
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Date: 6/27/2002 7:37:00 AM
From Authorid: 12835
When the constitution was signed, the following paragraph preceeds the signatures. "Done in convention by the unanimous consent of the states present the seventeenth day of September in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven and of the independence of the United States of America the twelfth. In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names," In the year of our Lord, sounds to me like they have prescribed to the fact they held some regard towards God. |
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Date: 6/27/2002 7:40:00 AM
From Authorid: 22080
ok im tired of hearing "this country was founded on christian principles" i cant tell you where to put that because this is g rated now this country may have been founded on christian principles but who cares it clearly states freedom of religon in our constitution the pilgrims came here for religous freedom and thats what i expect today i think everyone needs to learn to bite there tongue more often because im tired of hearing religous,racial and sexual slurs thrown around like a 75 cent baseball if we learned to shut up more often this country would be a better place but everyone thinks there group is better which isnt the case no group is better than the other now the "in god we trust" and "one nation under god" could be "in our nation we trust" and "one nation unified" keeping religon out of it sorry im an athiest and i find it quite wrong that i have to say "one nation under god" to complete the stupid pledge no flag is important enough to say that im under god but thats my opinion and my beliefs now ill sit back and let the cracks on me begin cause i know there coming because no one knows how to bite there tongue |
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Date: 6/27/2002 8:02:00 AM
From Authorid: 12835
Jestr, you set a good example of biting your tongue. |
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Date: 6/27/2002 8:06:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
I agree with Karma Killer. Also, What you guys don't seem to understand is that the whole "Jesus/God is Savior/Bible is infallible Word/Christianity" thing is A HOAX, it IS a lie. Now, because I say that, you assume I am calling YOU, SPECIFICALLY, a liar. NO. That isn't the case. YOU, as well as MYSELF were always taught these things as the truth. If a person doesn't know any better, and makes such a strong statement as something he believes to be true (BASED UPON NOTHING MORE THAN HEARSAY, and what he was taught from the cradle and the pulpit); then ...NO, I would not call him a liar in the true sense of the word...just IGNORANT. Understand that? Like: I used to bear witness; I used to give testimony; I used to believe with all my heart, body, mind and soul...that which I always heard and was taught as a young impressionable child. I was not exposed to ANYTHING else, no other religions, no other ways of thinking, no one to offer rebuttal to my beliefs or assertions. And so it went for many years. I DID NOT KNOW THAT ALL THAT I HAD BEEN TAUGHT WAS A LIE! So, technically, I could not be called a 'LIAR'. I just simply was ignorant. |
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Date: 6/27/2002 8:36:00 AM
From Authorid: 44850
"why are you pledging allegience to a flag in the first place?" -god |
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Date: 6/27/2002 9:16:00 AM
From Authorid: 15621
Thinker, you said "Jesus/God is Savior/Bible is infallible Word/Christianity" thing is A HOAX, it IS a lie....this is a Fallacy...a hasty generalization.......if you statesomething....Prove it.....in addition to this, what does it have to do with the post? |
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Date: 6/27/2002 9:28:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
Because, Tim, BASED upon FACTS; Facts I have researched, and learned for MYSELF, it is and was a huge mythical story and lies. NO, dear, it was not a "hasty" conclusion by any stretch of the imagination. And, "what does this have to do with this post", well, when I am ask a question, or am told that I hold a certain belief, or said a particular thing or implied a certain thing; regardless of WHERE it occurs, I am going to answer it. Go back and read all replies here, and see that that is where it lead to. Also, go to Thunderheads post she did today, and you will see as how it was derailed by someone asking a question that led away from the topic of the post (well, the MAIN topic, that is). You know these things happen very often on here, so what's the big surprise here? |
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Date: 6/27/2002 9:44:00 AM
From Authorid: 12835
Thinker, I reread Thunder's post and I don't see anyone trying to derail it.??? |
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Date: 6/27/2002 10:07:00 AM
From Authorid: 12835
Ok, Thinker, another FOUNDING father John Adams, who later became the second President of the United States had this to say about God. Please read the following from the National archives about this man. "Adams' legal practice often took him to Boston, where he became well acquainted with James Otis, Jr., and his distant cousin Samuel Adams. With them he attended the clubs of tradesmen and joined the "Sodalitas" an a founding member. This group of Boston lawyers mixed scholarly discussions of law with debates on the legality of the Stamp Act of 1765. Out of these meetings came Adams' anonymous articles for the Boston Gazette, later reprinted as A Dissertation on Canon and Feudal Law. In these he traced the origin and rise of freedom. The rights of Englishmen, he wrote, were derived from God, not from king or Parliament, and would be secured by the study of history, law, and tradition." |
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Date: 6/27/2002 10:09:00 AM
From Authorid: 12835
Also Thinker, these are FACTS, coming from an uneducated man who can not comprehend. More to come I'm afraid...... |
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Date: 6/27/2002 10:22:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 49025
So, because I am an adult, and I still choose to be a christian and believe and God, I am a liar? I think not. What I was taught is not a lie. What proof is there that christianity is a hoax and a lie? |
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Date: 6/27/2002 10:40:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
Thinker: Thomas paine has lots of words written, to me and any other person that belives that the Bible is the Written word of God through man, would of course say that the things that thomas paine writes about that tries to discredit Jesus and the Bible, a lie. ITS ONLY his opinion. In your eyes, this is a Hoax.Prove to me, in your own words with YOUR own ideas that this is a Hoax? You have given me many things to read, written by many other people that believe that this is a hoax, yet I would like to hear in your own words WHY you believe this and What FACTs led you to believe this? Perhaps you should do a post on it. |
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Date: 6/27/2002 10:56:00 AM
From Authorid: 19092
Thinker, my belief in God is supported by what "HE" has done in my life, my personal experience with "HIM", being filled with "HIS Holy Spirit", something, evidently, you have never experienced. I have very personal reasons for what I believe, it didn't come from a book... |
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Date: 6/27/2002 2:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 34476
I actually agree with King Caspian: why am I (and any OTHER person who believes in a divine power) being repressed by a minority, and why do they care? If I believed that God is not real, does not exist, and is one big LIE anyway, the pledge could say "Under Spiderman" for all I would care. It would mean the same thing to me. Absolutely nothing at all. I have more of a problem with even HAVING a pledge of allegiance to a flag, nation, or anything ELSE. (I think Vertigos said something similar on a different post about this) |
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Date: 6/29/2002 5:36:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
"The Christian God can easily be pictured as virtually the same God as many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian God is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him, they are always of two classes: Fools and hypocrites."===Thomas Jefferson. |
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Date: 6/29/2002 7:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 34476
LOL Thinker! Tell me something I didn't already know 1 Corinthians 1:18 "For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." |
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