Date: 6/18/2002 7:52:00 PM
From Authorid: 3321
Well...I think if you're talking about punishing the children with mental anguish and a hard life then yes, I am being punished for my moron father.  |
Date: 6/18/2002 7:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 28946
I think in the scriptures you mentioned, it means that children are usually brought up in their fathers religion and belief system. If the belief is faulty and impure,the children wouldn't know but continue to do what they were taught by their fathers. Then maybe that is what is meant in the scriptures. It's my opinion and I am not sure. There are many contradictions in the Bible but my interpretation works for me.  |
Date: 6/18/2002 7:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 7830
Since God is considered the Father of all, that means that God would have had to sin for us to be punished by the sins of our FATHER. Im not a believer in the bible though.  |
Date: 6/18/2002 8:24:00 PM
From Authorid: 17525
Very refreshing and thought provoking KarmaKiller. I've wondered this myself. It certainly demonstrates two distinct schools of thought in the authors of the the OT. But I think it can also demonstrate quite well the liklihood that there were several ideas of "god" floating around and possibly at the same time. Another possibility is a change in the idea of God over the years. It is said that whenever the 'idea' of God no longer works for a people, it is changed. The early OT is chock full of the violent and vengeful, not to mention jealous (deadly sin) God, which then appears to become more loving as history progresses, albeit a perceieved history. I guess it's a question we'll never have a difinitive answer for. Glad you posed it. Peace,  |
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Date: 6/18/2002 8:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 55216
I only understand the very last sentence. But if He does do that kind of punishing, then He must be pretty messed up. |
Date: 6/18/2002 10:15:00 PM
From Authorid: 177
This is one of the things Judeo-Christian religion that I despise. It's as if the "wonderful, loving God of the universe just is so brimming full of rage, wrath, veangence....it honestly makes me sick! On the other hand the theory of karma and reincarnation makes perfect sense to me. This is where people reap what they sow...for better or worse....from life-time to life-time.  |
Date: 6/18/2002 10:41:00 PM
From Authorid: 55433
Arguably, "Hamlet" is perhaps one of the most accessible stories for we modern readers re: the theme of 'Sins of the Father.' FYI G-man767 |
Date: 6/18/2002 10:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
I agree with what TC said, I don't have the knowledge or study to answer a question like this Karma, but I have heard this before and I am interested in what others may say. I personally believe we are responsible for our own actions but have nothing to back that up with. I have to go with my own life experiences and I believe people do eventually "reap what they sow". Or maybe some just have a crappy life. And I am not being flippant, I have seen so many suffer and so needlessly. I will definitely bookmark as I am sure there will be many interesting thoughts and opinions on this one.  |
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Date: 6/18/2002 10:58:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
Very interesting post! |
Date: 6/18/2002 11:30:00 PM
From Authorid: 34487
Possibly what is meant is that the sins of fathers effect their children. For instance, if a father cheats on his wife, this ultimately effects and is punishment to the children also. Anything parents do that is negative, even if only in their lives, ultimately rolls down hill. I don't know if most of these verses were in the old or new testament. You may be a better resouce on that then me. This too could be a possible explanation for some of these quotes. Good post Karma.  |
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Date: 6/19/2002 12:02:00 AM
From Authorid: 177
I'm glad I don't actually believe that the Lord is this kind of being......I hope. I believe (hope) that the mean god of the Bible was just a concept conceived by a people who lived in a harsh and unforgiving environment. The God of the Bible/Koran is (I hope) is a creation of Man, made in the image of Man....and not a very nice one at that! |
Date: 6/19/2002 5:39:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
Karen, What never ceases to amaze me; is that out of one side of the mouth of the fundamentalists they proclaim that the Scriptures is the infallible, unchangeable word of the living God. But out of the other side, they consider themselves to interpret---CHANGE THE MEANING OF--any passage that conflicts with modern popular thought brought on by post-enlightenment HUMANISM which pervades all modern thought---even biblical. Fundamentalists force the passages to conform with humanistic thought rather than simply take it at face value like 90 percent of Christianity did--before the Enlightenment basically discredited the authority of the Scriptures by showing us a better way. HUMANISM is is so superior to the Scripture that even the biblical fundamentalists must interpret the word of their own God. Naughty, Naughty! This came up on a post yesterday about the "Fool" post by Thunderhead, wherein, Sixgun and I got discussing the meaning. I took it literally, as it SAYS, and he was changing it totally around. The thing is; the only thing the fundamentalists can do about those old barbaric laws; the way they deal with them is to---reinterpret them---to force them to mean something other than what they say. I see this every single day "Well, it doesn't really mean this or that...."  |
Date: 6/19/2002 8:03:00 AM
From Authorid: 15621
Is everyone allowed to reply to this?  |
Date: 6/19/2002 8:14:00 AM
From Authorid: 15621
You do not "cut and paste" all of it, just one small part"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that HATE me;
20:6
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that LOVE me, and keep my commandments." See,there is a difference spoken of here.....He will not punish the innocent who love Him, only those who hate...........Same thing here, "Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin,(to those taht love him) and that will by no means clear the guilty; (the ones who hate)visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. ...When it says that as the verse clearly shows in chapter 20, only the generations of children who hated God were punished, not those who loved Him and followed Him
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Date: 6/19/2002 8:14:00 AM
From Authorid: 15621
And since this a discussion and not a debate, I think Ill just leave it at that |
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Date: 6/19/2002 8:27:00 AM
From Authorid: 15621
There will be those that say I am twisting this around.........and thatst he only way they will see it, yet If I say there doing the same......then God forbid...dont all christians do that?...LOL |
Date: 6/19/2002 8:30:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 17516
Sweetie, I think you know that he does punish the children of those who trespass against him. Here's an example I have asked you about many times: Did God kill David's son because of David's sin? Yes or no? And since David was the beloved of God, your contention that God only punishes the children of those who "hate" him doesn't really stand up.  |
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Date: 6/19/2002 8:36:00 AM
From Authorid: 15621
Verse and scripture please |
Date: 6/19/2002 11:38:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 17516
2 Samuel 12 -18 7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; 8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things. 9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon. 10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife. 11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun. 13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. 14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. 15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick. 16 David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth. 17 And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them. 18 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. |
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Date: 6/19/2002 11:40:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 17516
So as this verse clearly states, God killed David's infant son because of DAVID'S sin. However, since God says elsewhere in the bible (as documented above) that every person shall be punished for their OWN sin, this is clearly a contradiction. |
Date: 6/19/2002 4:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 34476
Ahhh.... I see an assumption here, Karma Your example of David and his son is interesting, BUT you are assuming the CHILD was being punished along with David. It was David's punishment. He wanted his child to live! One might assume that an early exit from life is punishment (after 7 days), others would disagree with you. Most would agree that an infant that young doesn't have any idea what is going on at that age, and therefore anything which is seen as punishment could NOT BE punishment to the child. Unless one is aware of their surroundings and is cognizant of cause/effect or "responsibility", it is very hard to punish them. (I'm not encouraging infanticide, either... PLS do not go there)  |
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Date: 6/19/2002 5:08:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 17516
Huh? Did you see the other examples above? And in this case God says: 14 Howbeit, BECAUSE by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die." God tells David that the child is dying BECAUSE David sinned. You argue that the child dying was no punishment to the child because....? |
Date: 6/19/2002 5:10:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 17516
In addition, these two seem particularly clear:"Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers..." Isaiah. 14 1
"... I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children..."Exod. 20:5
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Date: 6/19/2002 5:12:00 PM
From Authorid: 15621
Ok, I agree there SEEMS to be a problem here (still have to look up a few things) but again quote the whole scripture and it takes away a few verses you are using here sweetie. |
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Date: 6/19/2002 5:16:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 17516
I quoted the story of David in it's entirety. I do not believe that any of the others are out of context. If you think I have misconstrued the meaning of some of these, by all means point it out and I will look into it. |
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Date: 6/19/2002 5:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 15621
I have, but I will do so again in a bit |
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Date: 6/19/2002 5:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 15621
Here is the thing.....Just because the CHild(boy) did not know he was being punished (does that mean he wasnt?.......if someone is cheating you and you dont know it, does that mean you havent been cheated?..LOL...nope, I wish I could go along with that Pariniod but? |
Date: 6/19/2002 5:31:00 PM
From Authorid: 22275
this is kinda confusing  |
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Date: 6/19/2002 5:36:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 17516
Here's the Readers Digest version Pika: The Bible says that God won't punish your children if you sin AND the Bible says that God WILL punish your children if you sin. |
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Date: 6/24/2002 9:19:00 PM
From Authorid: 34476
Sixgun has already pointed this out: Exodus 20:5-6 ""You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments." The 3rd and 4th generations of those who hate me. Seems self-explanatory. |
Date: 6/24/2002 9:23:00 PM
From Authorid: 34476
Exod. 34, Num. 14:18, and Deut. 5 are all re-stating most or all of one of the 10 commandments. (You shall have no other gods before me and following) |
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Date: 6/24/2002 9:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 34476
II Samuel 12:14 ""However, because by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born to you shall surely die."" David's punishment, not necessarily the child's punishment. One could argue that an early death is a blessing, not a punishment. |
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Date: 6/24/2002 9:30:00 PM
From Authorid: 34476
I Kings 22:51-53 "Ahaziah the son of Ahab became king over Israel in Samaria in the seventeenth year of Jehoshaphat king of Judah, and he reigned two years over Israel. He did evil in the sight of the LORD and walked in the way of his father and in the way of his mother and in the way of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who caused Israel to sin. So he served Baal and worshiped him and provoked the LORD God of Israel to anger, according to all that his father had done." Notice that Ahaziah, the son of Ahab, "did evil in the sight of the Lord". And was punished for this evil. So... the Lord punished Ahab's son because of what Ahab did, but ALSO because of what his son did. If Ahaziah would have repented, there may have been a different outcome. |
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Date: 6/24/2002 9:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 34476
Isaiah 14:3-4 "And it will be in the day when the LORD gives you rest from your pain and turmoil and harsh service in which you have been enslaved, that you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon, and say, ..." Verse 21 is part of the prophecy about the destruction of Babylon. Since there is no information about the "sons", I cannot comment whether they were guilty of any sins here or not. I CAN state that, according to the scriptures, ALL have sinned and fallen short. Therefore, even tho this punishment was proclaimed to be "because of the iniquity of their fathers", it can ALSO be because of their own sins. (Like the cycle of violence and abusive homes ... the father did it, the children live with it, and when they grow up THEY do it) |
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Date: 6/24/2002 9:40:00 PM
From Authorid: 34476
There is a much better point I could make, if only I knew one more thing ..... *runs off to look one more thing up* |
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Date: 6/24/2002 10:12:00 PM
From Authorid: 34476
I'll be back, Karma, once I learn a little bit more |
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Date: 6/24/2002 10:26:00 PM
From Authorid: 34476
Ahhhh.... Here's the best point I could have made. I will accede the point that at times, children were punished for their father's sins. But... Even tho some children were punished for their father's sins, the Lord changed and clarified things a bit later on. Ezekiel and Jeremiah were written well after the examples you have cited. Both prophets start out with similar statements: "The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge." Jeremiah (vs 30) finishes it with this statement: "But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge." BOTH prophets make similar statements about sin, and who is to be held accountable for sin. (the one who sins). Jeremiah 31:30-34 and Ezekiel 18 (the whole chapter). Ezekiel 18 is the chapter I would recommend reading, as it explains it better. (Jeremiah is contrasting the old and new covenant, AFTER making the statement the initial statement about sin, and who is to be held accountable.) So, to answer your question: No. God no longer punishes children for their father's sins. |
Date: 6/30/2002 10:30:00 PM
From Authorid: 37900
This is an excellent post, Karma! The clearest contradictions seem to be Exodus 20:5 and the three other similar references> The key to understanding this seems to be the meaning of the word "visiting." The Strong's number (06485) translated "visiting" does occasionally denote punishment, but the overall tone of the word seems to be one of monitoring or oversight, especially in these verses. An analogy might be the function of a CPA in a company: keeping accurate records of how money moves in a business without making the final decisions. A possible explanation of these verses might be that God keeps track of everyone's sins, and monitors the influence of those sins on future generations. If necessary, He interrupts the cycle of iniquity if individual sins merit it, but God does not punish offspring for what the parents have done. Parental example may make it easier for children to create a life of disobedience, but ultimately, everyone is accountable for his or her own sins. Thanks for making me think.  |
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Date: 6/30/2002 10:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 37900
In the case of David's baby, I think this is an example of God's foreknowledge, not God's punishment. David acknowledged the possibility of God sparing the child's life (2 Samuel 122); clearly, he did not believe that God had willed the child to suffer for his [David's] sin. David believed that God's intentions could change if people changed. Good post. |
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Date: 6/30/2002 11:09:00 PM
From Authorid: 37900
I think the other verses can be similarly explained. Ahab's son was Ahaziah (1 Kings 22:51-53). Ahaziah followed his father's example of wickedness and provoked God to anger. The evil that God brought upon him was a direct consequence of Ahaziah's lifestyle. IMO, people receive judgment for their own lives, not for the lives of their predecessors. |
