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Date: 5/25/2002 7:58:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13974
This bill was written in 1777, and became law in January 16th 1786. We know it as the first amendment.  |
Date: 5/25/2002 8:00:00 PM
From Authorid: 15394
Isn't the pledge a tad un constitutional as it is under God, which is supposing that all will align with that thought? Under section II  |
Date: 5/25/2002 8:34:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
the original forefathers of our country intended for the seperation of church & state. Religion was never to be used by government to get into our bedrooms, our overies, our schools, and so forth. Excellent post!  |
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Date: 5/25/2002 8:34:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
thank you, Phydeux!!! |
Date: 5/25/2002 8:35:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Phydeux, I'm afraid the part "freedom OF religion" is THE ONLY part that stuck in an awful lot of people's minds. I, too, get sick of people loudly proclaiming "Well, this nation was built on Christian principles, by God fearing men!" when that is just not the case. I suspect they are only repeating/parroting that which they heard from the pulpit and church. Makes me wonder just what the heck is taught in school these days? Thank you for posting this. I will just give this link when I come across the next guy on here that needs to be educated. *wink*  |
Date: 5/25/2002 8:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 29387
Seperation of church and state is like isolating a 5 yr. old from a candy bar. Our constitutional rights initiate freedom of what we want freedom of, or from.  |
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Date: 5/25/2002 9:26:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
No lsg, that is not what was intended, it was intended that the STATE could NOT force a certain religion on a person. RATHER the founding fathers were of another belief or not, IN PUBLIC they still said they were christian, in public they still stated chrisitan beliefs, they still spouted IN GOD WE TRUST> Also,MANY people talk about chruch and state, but they misunderstand what it really says. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."FOOTNOTES (1) June 12, 1788, James Madison speaking to the delegates (speaking against Patrick Henry's assertions) at the Virginia Constitutional ratifying convention, as reported on page 330, The Debates of the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution 1787, VOL III by Jonathan Elliot. J B Lippincott Company 1888) (2) Schaff, Philip, "Church and State in the United States," Papers of the American Historical Society, 1888, p. 137. (3) Beard, Charles, The Republic, New York, Viking Press 1944, pp. 166, 178. SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Church State and Freedom, Leo Pfeffer Boston, The Beacon Press (1953) p 114  |
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Date: 5/25/2002 9:27:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." So I wish someone would tell me where it says anything about seperation of church and state in that quote! All I see is that CONGRESS can't pass a law establishing an official STATE religion, nor can they stop people from excercising their right to worship in whatever manner the people choose. Funny thing is, in the name of keeping church and state separate they do JUST that every day |
Date: 5/25/2002 9:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 13937
FB, The founding fathers gave the supreme court the job of interpreting the ammendments. The supreme court bases their interpretations on the intentions of the person who wrote the bill. All the ammendments are written vaguely and do not go into great detail. To interpret a law, the supreme court must also read and interpret the bill. Thomas Jefferson wrote this bill that became the first ammendment. If his intentions where to establish freedom OF religion and freedom FROM religion then that is exactly what the ammendment means. The bill of rights states we have the right to bare arms, but does not exclude live hand granades, nuclear weapons, and other such armourments of that nature. But in interpretation of that law, we can not have those things. Same goes for the 1st ammendment.  |
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Date: 5/25/2002 9:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 16671
Sepulevda22: You know, if the government would have KEPT things simple, it would be lots better for all of us. I will always beleive what I wrote above, but I will also always know that as you say, its all vague because of the courts interpretations of things. Kind of like mankinds interpretations of the Bible, so many of them and so many opinions. I think the founding fathers reguardless of what religion they were or were not, were in fact trying to keep things simple and this is why they came to this country to get away from the junk over seas, but once again,mankind has screwed it up royally. And sadly, they, the government will continue to do so. |
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Date: 5/25/2002 9:51:00 PM
From Authorid: 13937
But that is why Thomas Jefferson said he wanted freedom of and from religion, because of all the things he saw happening in other countries. Its not hard to see that, his intentions are written clearly above. |
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Date: 5/25/2002 9:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
In the Emerson vs. Board of Education case, the United States Supreme Court ruled that: The "Establishment of Religion" Clause, of the 1st admendment, means: Neither state nor federal goverment can set up a church, neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or PREFER ONE RELIGION OVER ANOTHER. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or remain away from a church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion------Justice Hugo Black. |
Date: 5/25/2002 10:20:00 PM
From Authorid: 17525
LOL @ LSG....get into our ovaries....! I'd agree with you if I had any! LOL  |
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Date: 5/25/2002 10:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 17525
Good post. Phydeux. Jefferson was a truly visionary man, unlike our present day oficials. |
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Date: 5/25/2002 10:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
thank you, Osiris.... |
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Date: 5/25/2002 10:34:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
I must be on a roll, the other day I threatened to "sic my flying monkeys" on someone.... |
Date: 5/26/2002 12:01:00 AM
From Authorid: 22080
actually i heard somewhere one of the founding fathers was an athiest im not 100% on this tho so dont tell me to supply evidence and all that lol i saw it on tv  |
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Date: 5/26/2002 6:43:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
Yes, Jestr, There was, but most were Deists. A DEIST=someone who believes in a supreme entity, A god, but doesn't believe in religion and or the Christian god. Several were very plainly outspoken with their peers and in private, but to the public, they went along with the ritual of things with regard to these matters because they were smart enough to realize that religion was very important to the masses and if they publicly let their TRUE feelings be known, it could get ugly and or ruin a campaign or career. That is the way it is TODAY, for sure. A successful politician KNOWS d**** well that if he has any hope for getting elected, he had better (at least in public) show himself to be a believer in God. There has been SOME politicians that I just laugh my you-know-what off, because they are just going through the motions, putting on for their public. Is that totally abhorant to you?? Yes, well, maybe, but it is REALITY. Today...(I don't see any change in that..in MY life time!), the most HONEST man, with the MOST integrity,and a man with NO wishes to sell out to huge corporations and special interest lobbyists, will NOT get elected!! THAT is THE T R U T H . |
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Date: 5/27/2002 10:29:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13974
All the way thinker. |
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Date: 5/27/2002 10:32:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13974
Firstborn, some of that junk from overseas was the problem that stems from people not having freedom of or FROM religion. And if you read above in the post, you will see that WAS the intention, right there in blue and white! :P The point is that intention is clear, and must be taken into concideration. Esspecialy when people claim that is NOT what was intended. |
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Date: 5/27/2002 8:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 53326
I know its not exactly what (or nearly what) this is about but Thomas Jefferson was an antifederalist and was in opposition of a strong central government. More likely than not had he been around during the civil war he's have been on the south's side when they seceded from the Union. Jefferson was all about state's rights and was against the kind of control the government currently has over the citizens. Dont get me wrong I know the man was a genius. He was a total renaissance (OK OK I cant spell)man, gifted in writing, speaking, the arts, and many other academic and physical things. But none the less, the man didnt exactly embody "the American way" One last thing dont let it be questioned his faith: here are somethings he had to say about religion. Of all the systems of morality, ancient and modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to me so pure as that of Jesus. ... "Had the doctrines of Jesus been preached always as pure as they came from his lips the whole civilized world would now have been Christian." .... "I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others." Sorry to be offsubject. I just wanted to point that out. |
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Date: 5/27/2002 9:04:00 PM
From Authorid: 53326
The actual wording of the 1st amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. ......... No matter what the intent of the amendment was it doesnt say that. The other members of the Constitutional Congress may not have wanted the from part in there and took it out. One way or the other it says what it says and that is all we are promised (that is not saying I agree or disagree with it) |
Date: 5/27/2002 10:31:00 PM
From Authorid: 27678
With all due respect, how can you possibly have both - if my freedom of religion is practiced outside of my home or church, then it infringes on your freedom from religion, right? So, are you saying that I've got the right to believe what I want, but I'm not allowed to put it to use outside of my home or church? Preposterous. And this country was founded on Christian principles, like it or not.  |
Date: 5/28/2002 7:09:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
*pats Freegirl on her widdoe head* There, there, sweetie *pats seat beside me* come on over here and let me 'splain it to ya ONE MORE TIME. Please go back up there and READ this post AGAIN, and maybe AGAIN. If that doesn't do it, go to MY stories, and read "Your Teacher Taught You That", and carefully, slo-o-o-wly, READ ....see if you can GET IT....then? I sure hope so, FreeGirl. I know....I know it is so HARD for you to accept that your old "this nation was founded on christian principles" is NOT the truth.....but , is it our problem that you don't know LAWS and HISTORY? Go on, read all about Thomas Paine.....You might learn something.  |
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Date: 5/28/2002 7:15:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
Phydeux, I'm thankful you posted this, as it will surely help SOME to know the truth, but I know you know that there are many others who will believe what they WANT to believe, no matter what, and WILL until the proverbial you-know-what-freezes-over. *sigh* |
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Date: 5/28/2002 9:40:00 AM
From Authorid: 53326
Thomas Payne? Thomas Payne was the one who shouted in Virgina that we must have war. (Is life so dear or peace so sweet that it be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it not Almighty God! I know not what choice others might take, but as for me give me liberty or give me death). I am personally not aware of him religious views, but Payne refused to go to the Constitution convention bc he thought that somethign bad would come out of it. Thomas Payne was a brillant man but if he had a problem with the way things were gonna turn out he coulda at least shown up to the convention and had his say. I dont include him in the founders of this country, yes with the dissolution of the old colony, but not the creation of the new. Want some people who were a part of the creation of america: Thomas Jefferson (Of all the systems of morality, ancient and modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to me so pure as that of Jesus. ... "Had the doctrines of Jesus been preached always as pure as they came from his lips the whole civilized world would now have been Christian." ... "I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be." ...), James Madison, father of the constitution ("We've staked the whole future of American civilization not on the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to Govern ourselves according to the commandments of God. The future and success of America is not in this Constitution, but in the laws of God upon which this Constitution is founded." ). George Washington ("It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible"  Shall I continue. Those are just a few major men who took part in the creation of this United States. |
| Date: 5/28/2002 9:44:00 AM From Authorid: 53326 Now those quotes are not me saying that they didnt want freedom for other religions, they obviosly did and they thought that the 2 should be separated as well, but as far as their own beliefs ... |
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Date: 5/28/2002 9:58:00 AM
From Authorid: 53326
"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were…the general principles of Christianity…I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature." (Source: John Adams, Works, Vol. X, pp. 45-46, to Thomas Jefferson on June 28,1813.) .......... Sorry had to through one more in ... As I have pointed out before just because this was the intent of thomas jefferson does not mean that it was the intent of the other constitutional framers. Personally I think that it is of and from. We have the freedom of speech or from speech. We dont have to speak our thoughts, if that were a crime a lot of people would be in sad shape. We have freedom to or not to petition the courts and to or not to assemble. The press can print something if they want to or if they dont want to they dont have to (they generally do however biased it may or maynot be but none the less). In any event isnt atheism a relgion, isnt being an agnostic a religious choice? In a way you do have religion in some shape anyway. |
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Date: 5/28/2002 12:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 27678
Sunshine, you're right, except that was Patrick Henry, not Thomas Paine, and Thinker, since you're so knowledgeable, why not answer my question - How can there be both, freedom OF religion, and freedom FROM religion - defies logic. |
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Date: 5/28/2002 1:41:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
FREEDOM OF RELIGION: You are free to believe ANY thing, ANY religion you want to;l You are free to build a church, attend any worship service, pray to your god or goddess, in your homes, in churches, and standing out in a field somewhere, or pray (SILENTLY) anywhere you want to; you can distribute tracts and phamplets out on a street corner, and even crawl on a soap box on the corner and preach your lil ole heart out.....but....BUT... |
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Date: 5/28/2002 1:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
FREEDOM FROM....means you cannot force ME or anyone else to go along with you to that church or bow MY head in prayer, or make me say words "one nation under God", and things of this nature, all of which I don't believe in! Now, the freedom FROM part is all over this post, Freegirl. Go read MY post also, and if THAT don't explain it, come back and I will TRY to explain it some more. |
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Date: 5/28/2002 1:48:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
To borrow a word from George Carlin...."Correctamundo", FreeGirl. "Defies logic"?? Yeah, it defies the Christians "logic". Your "logic" is vastly different from MY logic. |
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Date: 5/28/2002 1:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 27678
On second thought, why bother???? |
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Date: 5/28/2002 2:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
"Why bother"?? Bother about WHAT? About YOU perhaps learning something? About YOU changing your view? ??? |
| Date: 5/28/2002 2:19:00 PM From Authorid: 53326 Oh I am sorry. Neither went to the Constitutional convention though. I think that it is possible to do have both freedom of and from, granted you cant have both at once for one individual, but if you dont want to practice a faith then you can, just like you dont have to speak or petition or assemble if you dont want. You can have that option. Personally I see atheism as a religion in itself, but that is just me. Everyone worships something, whether it is God, a god or goddess, a chicken, money, or like the "thinker" their own ego. The framers of the constitution were allowing for that. |
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Date: 5/28/2002 2:22:00 PM
From Authorid: 27678
Sunshine, thanks for putting some perspective here. I agree with you that atheism is a religion, however, the Thinker and I have already been that route. If you're interested in the url to that long ago debate, let me know, otherwise, I don't have the tenacity to go through it with her again, hence, the WHY BOTHER??? |
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Date: 5/28/2002 2:23:00 PM
From Authorid: 27678
And no, THINKER, I am not changing my view - and after 40 years of being a Christian and then turning on God, I can understand your animosity, cause you'll have to explain that to HIM one day, not me. |
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Date: 5/28/2002 2:23:00 PM
From Authorid: 53326
LOL! Dont worry I have been there with her too. Sure send the url. |
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Date: 5/28/2002 2:43:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
There you go, FG, go off onto something else, like ye ole "Atheism is a religion" bunk. YOU never learn, never did, never will. MY "ego"?? LMAO. If letting you in on the REAL truths about the laws and the constitution and all that stuff is just my "ego", well, darlin' then whatever you wanna call it. "Thinker's ego" ....hehehhe...just like the time she told me on one of my posts "One of these days God is gonna put you out of your misery". *Grin* Ahhhhh, isn't christianity just all peach keen, all cozy and lovey like? Makes me wanna just whoop and holler for Jebus! Yahoo! |
| Date: 5/28/2002 3:01:00 PM From Authorid: 53326 I didnt say that. Someone may have, but it wasnt me. I assure you, you will not be put out of your misery. And your ego vastly outweighs your knowledge. Just because you say it is the "truth" doesnt dispute facts and the actual real truth |
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Date: 5/28/2002 3:10:00 PM
From Authorid: 27678
There you go, Thinker, lumping us all into one group again. I said, "God would put you out of your misery." Someone else said something about your ego, RE: this post. Can't you get it straight? |
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Date: 5/28/2002 3:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 27678
Here you go, Sunshine: http://www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm107430.html Enjoy, and send me your thoughts. |
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Date: 5/29/2002 9:53:00 AM
From Authorid: 24924
FreeGirl, This is an article written by a Baptist Professor of Bible and Biblical Languages on the Founding fathers. He goes into great detail, and also offers reasons why christians proclaim and hold on to the false belief that this country was founded on Christian principles. I do hope you will read it. http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume2/ushistor.htm |
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Date: 5/30/2002 9:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 27678
I read it, Thinker, and while I find the information interesting, there are many, many writings that demonstrate many of the forefathers beliefs in God, if not in the Bible, however, most did not attend church, and may indeed not have considered themselves Christian. Thanks for the info. |
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Date: 5/31/2002 1:38:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13974
Wow, I leave for a couple of days... hehehe |
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Date: 5/31/2002 1:40:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 13974
Let me just add one more thing to the freedom FROM part of thinkers explination. Freedom from also means, that I have do not ned to take time out of what I am doing, and stop what I am involved in so YOU can pray. That is YOUR business, and I have a freedom from it. (i.e. school prayer.) |
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