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Date: 4/5/2002 5:41:00 PM
From Authorid: 8555
Isn't it because God rested on the seventh day?  |
Date: 4/5/2002 5:45:00 PM
From Authorid: 15033
I am a wholehearted believer that Saturday is the true Sabbath, and nowhere does it say we were to switch to Sunday. The Catholic Religion changed it for the luring of Pagans into Catholicism, just like they made it okay to worship graven images that copied the Pagan gods and goddesses(virgin Mary, angels, saints, etc.) to them to convert as well.  |
Date: 4/5/2002 5:46:00 PM
From Authorid: 51061
well man it is a sin to work on the sabbath,and it is mentioned many times all throughtout the bible that the sabbath is holy, and for thing would i believe everything in the bible and teach nothing that is not, no. God has given us knowledge ove the years, now believe everything in the bible but to teach nothing outside of it no, i will teach what is helpful and what is good and I hope God agrees wiuth that-------Guy  |
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Date: 4/5/2002 5:46:00 PM
From Authorid: 15033
I'm not a Seventh Day Adventist either...just someone that has looked for the best ways to follow bible teachings. Love to you, |
Date: 4/5/2002 5:47:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
Yes God did rest on the Seventh day. This is called His Sabbath. Sunday is often refered to as the sabbath, but Sunday is the first day of the week. So you are correct that sabbath is the day of rest, and a day to keep Holy.  |
Date: 4/5/2002 5:54:00 PM
From Authorid: 26733
My question is when did Sunday become the seventh day...isn’t Saturday the seventh day?  |
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Date: 4/5/2002 5:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 26733
This is something I have been wondering about for a long time. Do you people count backwards when it comes to the days of weeks? God rested on the seventh day so why we do we worship at a day of rest - a day where no one should be at work and all that. |
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Date: 4/5/2002 5:58:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
Thunderhead, I understand and Agree with you completely. I cannot count the times in which I have been ask if I was a Seven day Adventist. I, Like you just Believe the Bible. I have tried to pull away from Anything that is, or is not, commanded that we as Christians should, or should not do, as is recorded in the Bible. Perhaps you could share your opinion as to why you think So many "CHRISTIANS" continue to disobey the Holy Bible. |
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Date: 4/5/2002 6:02:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
Boomboom, We have many a Christian Preacher in the Local assemblies today that will teach it is a sin to work a public Job on Sunday, and not be found in Church on the sabbath day, as "THEY" refer to it! This is totaly wrong according to the TRuth which is the Holy Bible! Saturday is the True Sabbath Day, It is not Sunday! So I am asking Christians Why they are continuely doing what is not commanded they should do on Sunday? |
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Date: 4/5/2002 6:05:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
This is a Dissussion between Christians, who uphold the Holy Bible. The christian should be far more familiar with it, over the unbeliever in the Bible. The unbeliever in the Bible I have no need to ask! The Bible believer, the People who have been Born Again by the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ is the People who need to respond! |
Date: 4/5/2002 6:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 51901
I agree with you guys about saturday being the true Sabbath. and I'm not seventh Day Adventist either. I tried to tell my mom this but she didn't believe me.  |
Date: 4/5/2002 6:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 36967
The Apostle Paul has issued the resurection day( I think that is how KJV words it) as the Lord's Day. I forget where though. Today, at the age of Grace, Christians are to take one day out of the week, any day I think, as a day of rest. Many just choose sunday as their day of rest. For those who have to work on sunday, they can pick another day. I don't think it really matters what day you use. That is how I understand it. |
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Date: 4/5/2002 6:13:00 PM
From Authorid: 36967
I think one reason why so many Pastors, etc choose Sunday as the day of worship, is that many of people need to work on a saturday. Of all the days in the week, sunday is the day that most of the people take off, and I think either tuesday or wednessday is the day that is the least that people take off from work. Our Church has services sunday morning, sunday night, wednessday night and saturday night. In my area, each day of the week there is atleast one Bible believing church that has a service on that day. So if I want to, I can go to church every night of the week(Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednessday, Thursday, Friday Saturday and Sunday nights) and saturday and sunday morning too. |
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Date: 4/5/2002 6:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 15033
Well Haadam, I think many are under the impression it would be too hard to follow his word, and they might have to give up too much of their fun to do so. I find the closer I get to him through prayer, the more I naturally live a day to day life that is simple, peaceful, and less weighted down with: material concerns, entertainment, lieing to myself about what makes me happy, and letting myself be lied to. I also stay healthy over my illness, am not usually depressed, or sad, etc, like I once was. It just becomes more and more comfortable to want more of His world...here and hereafter. Worshipping on Saturday would definately put a kink in the lives of the still "worldly" types. Everything has been twisted to make Sunday the day of rest, and we are all allowed to buy, sell, work, and ignore a personal walk with the Lord on Saturdays. It would be inconvenient to convert back to the true Sabbath day. I think it was set up to affect us all that way from whenever they changed it....and think about it, it is majorly important that we "keep the Sabbath day holy." |
Date: 4/5/2002 6:15:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
Drkptrs, As I remember the Scriptures it says (Concerning Paul) As his manner was he was found teaching on the Sabbath day as his manner was. (Acts 17 ) This does not Say He was preaching/Teaching on Sunday (First day of week). Please back up what you think or believe in with Scripture. |
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Date: 4/5/2002 6:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 36967
I agree with you 100 percent. As what many churches and Pastors do, they are not even treaching sunday as a sabbath. |
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Date: 4/5/2002 6:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 36967
I know that Haadman, I was just saying that is where these people get that idea. |
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Date: 4/5/2002 6:23:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
Amen Thunderhead on your last sentence. All of what you say is really the truth as to how the Devil has conditioned the World and have put our people again under the attempt to control who we do, and do not worship. Drkptrs. You I know, believe in Jesus Christ and His Holy Bible! it is your weapon, as it should be. However, what you think Concerning Breaking the Commandments of God Knowingly, is of no concern to Our Lord God Jesus Christ. You Believe in Him, In His Bible, you too must believe in What He has commanded you to do! That which was written on tablets of stone is now written in the tables of Our Hearts. The 4th commandment was on the Stone tablets, so why are they too not in the tables of your Heart? |
Date: 4/5/2002 6:32:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
To Christians here! We as Brethren in Jesus Christ hear all the Time here at USM, the questions ask.., Why do you christians all believe differently? I know that answer! Will the rest of you deny the answer? The answer is.., because Some christians Believe in only parts of the Bible. They only practise Parts of the Bible. The other parts are Parts of Religion that man has added, without Inspiration of God. The Bible is the "INSPIRED TRUTH" do as It says, Teach what it Teaches, Practise What it teaches and we as Christians will not be faced with those kind of questions. Again I ask! What does the "BIBLE" say about the Seventh day Sabbath? Where in the "BIBLE" (give reference "PLEASE" where does it instruct us to observe Sunday over Saturday Sabbath!? Where did God command Sunday to be Observed? Please show me. |
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Date: 4/5/2002 6:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 13952
haadam....the sabbath is old testament belief.... christians are no longer under law but under grace....colossians 2:16-17...and acts 15 8-29...the sabbath law is not binding on christians today.....  |
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Date: 4/5/2002 6:36:00 PM
From Authorid: 51061
Alright I have to say more, Think about what you people are saying, Back when God created the heavens and the Earth there was no such thing as A day of the week do we agree, sense that time humans made some, and i can tell you right now we have no idea when the sabbath is any longer when Jesus was alive we might have, now we do not. And another thing i don't go to church but i am a true christian you are aware that going to church does not make you a christian right, church is nothing more then a fellowship of believers it is not a building so in that sense I am at church all the time-------Guy |
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Date: 4/5/2002 6:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 15033
If that were true Jim, then Jesus would not have practiced it. but He did, and instructed his diciple to do the same. Isn't He the beginning of the new testament? |
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Date: 4/5/2002 6:39:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
Jim, Do you feel it is your duty as becomming a Christian, that you should try and obstain from lying, stealing, Adultery, Murder, Fornication? If so, then Why? Is it because the Commandments of God are written on the tables of your heart! If we fail at these things, After truly trying to abstain from them, we have an advocate and Grace to cover our short commings. But to willfully serve sin, after comming to the knowledge of the truth their remaineth no more sacrifice for our sin. |
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Date: 4/5/2002 6:41:00 PM
From Authorid: 51061
hey what is fornification?------Guy(honestly asking) |
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Date: 4/5/2002 6:45:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
Guy, You say you are a Christian. I will accept your Testimony. So perhaps you do not yet know what fornication is. It is when two people have sexual relations without being Married. |
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Date: 4/5/2002 6:48:00 PM
From Authorid: 36967
You are misunderstanding what I am saying. I do agree with you that we need to have saturday as the sabbath. (actually the true sabbath is friday sundown to saturday sundown, for us it will be 6 PM Friday to 6 PM Saturday, that is how the days go. So in reality No one keeps the sabbath.) If you look up Hebrews 105, don't forsake the assembling of yourselves. I believe that is saying whenever you have the oppuritunity to go to church, you need to go. In my area, North Eastern Pennsylvania, everyday, there is atleast one Bible Believing Church, that has sometype of service. So I can go to church on Sunday Morning, Sunday Night, Monday Night, Tuesday Night, Wednessday Night, Thursday Night, Friday Night, Saturday Morning, and Saturday Night(Just to let you know, it is not the same church that has these services every day.). And because of Hebrews 104-25, I make an effort to attend these services everyday. If you have a service in your area, regardless of whay day or what time of day, if you could make it, then I believe that you should. go. I'll let that be between you and God. That is how I understand that verse. I cannot find anything in scripture that says that we cannot hold services on certain days or we have to hold a service on a certain day. Many people who think they follow Sunday as the sabbath, in reality, they are really not using sunday as the sabbath. Also, if you do not believe that you need to work on the sabbath, weather you think it is sunday or saturday, then don't make anyone else work on these days. They work I do, in order for me to work on friday, I would actually make someone work on Saturday, for me to work on monday, then someone would be required to work on sunday. Even if I choose to work on sunday, still someone would have to work on saturday, in order for me to work on sunday. So if I were to tell my boss that I cannot work on sunday, or saturday or anyday, then for me that is being a hyprocrite, because in order for me to work one day, someone would have to work the day before and the day after. |
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Date: 4/5/2002 6:51:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
You know I feel it is very healthfull in a spiritual way, If we as Christians get called out from time to time, to Prove Our beliefs from the Biblical standpoint. Too many of us practise things, and do not know why, other than because the Preacher, or the majority does it. We should only Do what God says we must Do in Practise! Do you bretheren disagree with my last statement? |
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Date: 4/5/2002 7:02:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
You know, Some of us would probably say that what we are discussing now before many non believers, could be doing an injustice to Jesus and His Holy people. I personaly disagree, to that kind of thinking, because I do not think we could do anymore harm than what Gods people are already doing by not fully knowing what we believe and why we practice that belief. Some say this, others do that, in so much that when one finaly comes to the understanding of what the Bible Instructs them to do over What the Preacher instructs them to do, it becomes more questionable as to why we Christians believe Differently. It is because most follow Traditions rather than the Holy Bible itself! |
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Date: 4/5/2002 7:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 13952
haadam and thunderhead......Jesus was the fulfillment of the old testament and that is why we no longer sacrafice animals.. we live no longer under the law of the 10 commandments....but live under grace.....matthew 22:36-40 shows the 2 greatest commandments......the law doesnt save it condemns...only our acceptance of Jesus Christ as our savior and the continual fight to do right is what saves our soul...... |
Date: 4/5/2002 7:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 51979
God rested on the seventh day and said we were not to do work on this day either.  |
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Date: 4/5/2002 7:35:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
Jim if you Love God as in the First and Greatist Commandment of Which you gave reference, You will keep his Commandments. If you Love me, (Do you as Matthew Chap. 22 says) Keep my Commandments, John 14:15. Then if you do as the second commandment says of which these two hangs all the law, to love others as yourself, you will not teach others to break "Even ONE" of Gods commandments. We have not said anything about sacrificing Animals here. Jim, let me ask you a question please if I may. If you are under grace today, (and We are in a type!) no longer under the law, (in the Type of which you say) Why then do you do anything at all, in Reverence to God, our Lord Jesus? |
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Date: 4/5/2002 7:38:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
51979, What you stated is So, So true! |
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Date: 4/5/2002 7:44:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
Jim you said, "only our acceptance of Jesus Christ as our savior and the continual fight to do right is what saves our soul......" So what are you continualy fighting for as being "RIGHT"? Why do you fight for what is right? How do you know, what is Right? Did God command the things that are right? |
Date: 4/5/2002 8:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 34476
Interesting question, Hadaam. I'll hopefully give you some interesting answers  The sabbath day is Saturday. If one reads the book of Acts, it's hard NOT to notice that many "Jewish" Christians were still following the old law also... to a point. The whole chapter of Acts 15 answers many of the questions you have brought up here. In the end, the Christians in Jerusalem were allowed to "bind" only 4 things upon Gentile Christians which correlated with the old law: vs 29 "that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication ..." (Also see Acts 215) These are the only things which "carried over" from the old law into the new one.  |
Date: 4/5/2002 8:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 34476
Concerning your question about assembling on Sunday instead of Saturday, this is done according to the pattern which the apostles established wherever they spread the gospel. Phil 3:17 "Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us." We know that the early Christians gathered together on the first day of the week. (Acts 20 ) It also makes logical sense to take the Lord's Supper (which Christians are ALSO supposed to do as a congregation) on the day in which Christ rose from the dead. (Matt 28:1, John 20:1, Mark 16, John 20:19) Collections were also to be made on the 1st day of the week (I Corinthians 16) Using deductive reasoning, it appears to be very LOGICAL as to why Christians today gather on Sunday instead of the sabbath. |
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Date: 4/5/2002 8:54:00 PM
From Authorid: 34476
If you want more biblical proof about the old law being done away (ie 10 commandments, sabbath, etc) and the new law now being in effect, I will provide them if necessary. |
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Date: 4/5/2002 8:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 34476
The questions which you have raised about Jesus' practices are moot, as He was a practicing Jew. The new law did not take effect until AFTER He had risen again |
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Date: 4/5/2002 8:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 34476
Heh... I just can't stop replying, Hadaam... I believe "Love your neighbor as yourself" and "Love the Lord with all your heart, soul, strength and mind" basically covers ALL old covenant commands, doesn't it? |
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Date: 4/6/2002 5:08:00 AM
From Authorid: 13952
haadam...it appears that while I was asleep paranoid has beat me to the punch once again...I agree with his observations....I dont understand why you feel that I condone the breaking of any of GODs commandments, but you have not convinced me that sabbath is a christian teaching... |
Date: 4/6/2002 5:55:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
Paranoid, So as we see the rivalry still carries on, Galatians 2:11-13, Acts 15:36-39. But WHY? Why does it still carry on today? Does this mean, because James the brother of Jesus, the cheif elder of the church at Jerusalem of that day, and Peter, and John, who was surnamed Mark, will not make it to Heavan because they Disagreed, and were Rivals to Paul? Concerning 1st Corinthians 16 of which you Brought to our Attention, as evidence of Paying our Tithes, on the first day of week. I will say this. In Galatians 2 -10 you will note Paul as saying when speaking of James, Cephas, and John, that they "SEEMED" to be pillars in the church of Jerusalem. You will note in 2:1 of this same book and Chapter it was in Jerusalem 14 years later. You too will note in Galatians 2 where Paul is saying..., For "HE," (was this "HE" God himself)For He that wrought effectualy in Peter to the apostleship of the Circumcision, the "SAME" was mighty in me toward the Gentiles. Ok then. Says Who? You will now please note in verse 10 that the Elders of the Church at Jerusalem 14 years later was Instructing Paul to Remember the Poor, which Paul says he was Eager to do. So Paul in 1st Corinthians 16 is refering to the Food, the Grains, that must be gathered, by laying by them in STORE, until Paul comes to recieve, and deliver to the poor in Jerusalem, so that all will be ready to deliver, so that their be no Gatherings When he comes to get them, and according to verse 3 approve by letters them which he will send to deliver their Gifts of food to the poor in Jerusalem. This is not talking about a Tithe of money, but Rather "GIFTS" (liberality) over and above! Paul was stating that these Grains needed to be gathered, and placed in store by them, before he came to distribute them. It was instructions for them to be ready and waiting when he got there! Acts 20 and verse 7 tells me that they came together the First of the week to break Bread. Yes, Paul did in fact Preach on that day, but it was not nessasarily the first "DAY" of the week which would be Sunday. You are putting too much inphasis on the word "DAY" that has been admittingly added by Men without inspiration. The text reads the first of the week, (could be any day before wednesday) The inspired writing does not say first "DAY"! Day is in Italic Type. So I stand with James, John, Peter, and Mark. "They" and Paul were Rivals. Why? Do you suppose it could have been because of the Commandments that were once written on the Tablets of Stone but "Now" (after Calvary) were written in the Tables of James, John, Peter, and Marks Hearts? |
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Date: 4/6/2002 6:40:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
Jim, my friend and Brother in Christ, Please if you will for me, Answer my Questions which I have ask once already. Jim you said, "only our acceptance of Jesus Christ as our savior and the continual fight to do right is what saves our soul......" So what are you continualy fighting for as being "RIGHT"? Why do you fight for what is right? How do you know, what is Right? Did God command the things that are right? I believe God was, and Is Jesus. I believe the 4th Commandment was Given by God, who in turn is Jesus. To love God (Jesus) as Matthew 22:37 says, Thou shalt Love the LORD thy God with all thy Heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy MIND, which is the GREAT Commandment. I do not believe you would willfully Deny "HIS" 4th Commandment which he too commanded! If anyone could do such a thing, I do not Feel they would be doing what Matthew 22:37 is instructing them to do. Can you not see, that ONE Truth, (Matthew 22:37) inhances the other, (Exodus 20-11)? Till heavan and Earth Pass, Not one jot or one tittle shall pass from the Law till all be fullfilled. (Matthew 5:18) So I ask you! Has Heavan and the Earth yet been Destroyed? Have You recieved your personal Glorified Body of Flesh yet? We all, you and I, know the answers to these last two questions. We know that the Earth is Still here, in its Original form, and We have not yet Received our Changed Glorified Individual bodys. So, According to Matthew 5:19 We cannot Teach that the Ten Commandments were done away with at Calvary. They were only Placed in Our Mind, as in a continuance from the Stone Tablets. |
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Date: 4/6/2002 7:22:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
Acts 154. Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, ye must be circumsized, and keep the Law: to whom "WE" gave no such commandment. Who is "WE", in this case I wonder? Paul and others of his company possibly? Well Does GOD teach us that we must be Circumsized of our Heart? Does God instruct that If Our Hearts be Circumsized, that We Have the Law Written in our Hearts, which are Our Minds and is an Inward Circumcision? (Romans 29) I know that HE does! The Outward Circumcision of the Forskin of flesh, has no longer, the Importance that it was Given for,as a mere Forshadow, to point to the True Circumcision of Our Hearts through Jesus Christ, and His Holy Spirit! Under the Law their Is a Circumcision, that is Commanded as a forever Covenant. That Circumcision is of Our Hearts, Our Minds. For by the Power of "That" Circumcision, WE KNOW, we have the Mind of Christ! |
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Date: 4/6/2002 7:56:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
Phillipians 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of "ME", and "MARK" (note a pattern) them which walk so as ye have "US" for an example. We DO NOT know, that Paul set the example of Preaching on the first "DAY" of the week (Sunday) as Acts 20 states, because the Word "DAY" in that verse has been Added by Man "without" inspiration, and is noted so as being, because it is in Italic Type! However we "DO KNOW" that following Pauls Example by a Pattern that "IS" Recorded "WITHOUT" Italic Type, In Acts 17, That Paul as his "MANNER" (custom) was, went in unto them, and three "SABBATH DAYS" reasoned with them out of the Scriptures! You will note, that not One Word, is written in the Italic Type. It appears to me, that We, as Christians are putting far to much inphasis on Words that Man has Admitted to "ADDING" without Inspiration, which They Claimed makes english smoother. To me it Makes Gods Holy Words, more confusing as they Who Read them, assume they are also Inspired. Do you know what I am Saying about the Italic Type is the Truth? |
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Date: 4/6/2002 8:21:00 AM
From Authorid: 36967
I am not sure if I stated this in here or not, but if I were to tell my boss that I cannot work on the Sabbath(weather be a Saturday or Sunday) That to me I would be a hyprocrite to say that. Here is why, the work I do, if I were to work on Friday, then it would make someone work on Saturday, or someone would have to work on sunday in order for me to work on monday. Even if I were to work on sunday, still it would make someone work on saturday in order for me to work on sunday. Anyday of the week, someone would have to work the day before, and then I would have to make someone work the day after. That is how the work goes at there. I would have to be willing to work anyday, or quit my job. The point is, it is so easy to force someone to work on the sabbath, and if you don't believe in working on a saturday or sunday, but yet you make people work on these days. I know people who go out to a resturant to eat out on sundays so they will not have to work, but yet they are making someone work. I bet you people use electricity on your sabbath, well that is making someone work. If you really believe in resting on the sabbath, then don't make people work on these days. |
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Date: 4/6/2002 8:25:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
Acts 215 says.., As touching the Gentiles which believe, "WE" have written and concluded that they Observe no such thing, save "ONLY" that they keep themselves from things offered to Idols, and from blood, and from strangled , and from fornication. Who is this "WE" that Paul is speaking of here? Well.., Acts 15:19 Identifies them as this! Verse 19 Wherefore "MY" sentence is, that "WE" trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God. Why does not God Get the Credit as to What is, and Is not, Judged in this case? Paul states it is "HE" (not God) sitting in this judgment. |
Date: 4/6/2002 9:06:00 AM
From Authorid: 16671
I havent a clue as why they put it on sunday. When saturday is clearly on our calendar the seventh day. However I havent checked to see how the Jewish calandar is? I'm not a seventh day adventist either.  |
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Date: 4/6/2002 11:11:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
Darkptrs, It appears to me what you are saying in some kind of respect, is that you are working on the Sabbath day so that another will not have to work it for you. I know this is not what you mean, but it kinda sounds that way. It would be a very Noble thing of you to do, "IF" that was what you were doing, but I dont feel God would appreciate that kind of nobleness. If you do, or do not work from the hours of 6pm Friday to 6pm Saturday, would have no bearings on whether others willingly do so! They are going to work Regardless of whether you do, or dont. It appears is some way, that your wording makes an excuse as to Why you do work on the Sabbath Day of Rest. In my Own personal experiance from years ago, I found that according to my Boss, if I refused to work between the hours of 6pm Friday, and 6pm Saturday, that I would be replaced. However that is not what happened in my Case. I expected it, to happen in the fullest extent, because that Is what I was verbaly told by my Boss. However I was willing to take my Stand because of the Forever Covenant with Jesus between his people and his 4th commandment. So when I put my stand to the test while expecting failure, (as concerning my Job Loss) I recieved my stay! My Lord Jesus, by only his power of which only "HE" could do in my case, put into my bosses, Boss head, that I should remain as the same full time employee, with the same Job Title with the only exception that I did not have to work during the hours of the Sabbath for no reason. My God, was respected! not by My Boss, but by His Boss! Praise his Holy Name! Am I saying this will happen to all who will choose to take a stand with Jesus concerning His Sabbath Day of rest? No absolutly not. But it surley could, again and many times, if He so chooses to do so! Perhaps it happened they way it did with me, (I truly do not know) because I was already geared and fully exspecting to be looking for another Job to replace the one I was told I was going to loose. But in reality, God protected the Job, my Family and I so desperatly needed to supply us with the wages I needed to meet our Personal needs as means of physical body support. So according to my own personal experience, it is far better to worrie about whether "YOU DO" or do not, Work on the Lords Sabbath day, rather than Worrying about keeping Some other Person from working on it. If I am feeble, old or sick in the Hospital, or Nursing Home, and am not Working on the Sabbath Day, but causing others to work on it to take care of my needs, I asure you they would still be there whether I was, or was not! Willingly they would be there!! They like their money, far more than they care about my ailments, or the Lords Sabbath Day of rest. The same goes for the Waitresses, waiters, and Cooks in the Resturants. They are there for the soul purpose of making Money. They will be there even If I stayed home to keep them from Serving me. Regardless! It is not I that causes them to work, it is them! With their need for money security. It is money (mamon) that puts them there! |
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Date: 4/6/2002 11:21:00 AM
From Authorid: 13952
haadam.....you miss my point, i think....yes all scriptures are inspired and beneficial for teaching....just as animal sacrifices depicted the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus Christ.....we read and obey what GOD has instructed us to do through his words found in the bible.....honoring the sabbath is not a command from Jesus.....in fact Jesus healed on that day to the dismay of the pharisees....and Matthew 23rd chapter tells what Jesus thought of the pharisees. |
Date: 4/7/2002 7:04:00 PM
From Authorid: 34476
Interesting way of looking at things, Hadaam. Rivalry? I see Christian brothers striving to teach what Christ taught. Not a "rivalry" but a genuine effort for the "ONENESS" to continue to be taught. All Christians are to be of one mind, etc. Unity is one of the goals, NOT who may be better than who. I'll not pit Peter vs. James, John, Paul or any OTHER apostle. They were all striving to serve the Lord to the best of their abilties. As far as only the first of the week being mentioned, what do YOU think it means? If I say that you shall be paid the "first of the month" and omit the word "day" in my sentence, guess what? You will STILL assume that I will pay you on the 1st of that month. At least MOST people will. The word "day" is not necessary for this to be understood... common sense and very little logic is needed to see what is meant by the statement "the first of the week." You also have indirectly brought up the OT covenant and 10 commandments in your question toward me. Read Hebrews 7, starting in verse 7, and continue to read thru Hebrews chapter 10 vs. 25. This entire section is devoted to contrasting the old covenant and the new one. The who's, what's and why's about it. If we did not have the other portions of scripture which mention a gathering or assembly of Christians on the "first" of the week, I could accurately state this: ANY day is acceptable for our gathering (based on the book of Hebrews). Since we do have a few descriptions in other books as to WHEN the church chose to gather together, I have to amend my statement to say this: scripturally, we know that the early Christians gathered together on the first of the week. Now... if it was OK for them to do so, why is it NOT ok for us to do so as well? We ARE commanded to follow the patterns found within the scriptures, the teachings of Jesus, and the traditions which the apostles handed down to us which are preserved through scripture. The Jewish Christians in Jerusalem assumed that the old law was still in effect. God ended ALL debate about that when He allowed the temple to be destroyed in ad70. With no temple, there IS NO POSSIBLE WAY to physically comply with the old testament covenant. There is much more to the original covenant than the 10 commandments... MUCH more. Think about it. If you have any doubts, re-read Deuteronomy I'm starting to ramble a bit now, so I'll be quiet  |
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Date: 4/8/2002 5:41:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
Well, Paranoid, I went to Hebrews again and reread all of which you ask me too, of which I have Read many times before. However, we both know that the next time we read the same Holy text God can open up for us new understandings, about his Plan, he descided to do long, long, ago. I still did not receive what you hoped for me to recieve. However I opened my Heart to The Holy Words to Give Our Lord God Space for corrections for me. Even still, All I was able to see, what What I had seen before, Which is.., All the Things that it is teaching concerning the Old Law, that was replaced with Jesus Our High Priest who has been ordained after the order of Melchisedec (sp?) is the continual and yearly Sacrificing of Animals and spilling of Blood, for Atonement for Our Sin. The 10 commandments, is still named in this text in Hebrews, and says they are Written on the Tables of our Hearts, which in turn writes them upon our Minds. In another Place in the Bible it also says, that which was written on tablets of Stone, are now (after the order of the one known as Melchisedec) writen on the Tables of our Hearts. Again that Bible Text Confirms and goes hand in Hand with what is being read in the Book of Hebrews. AS far the word rivalry. You may use another to define what is noted in the Holy Bible, that happened between the Desciples and Apostles of Jesus Christ Our Lord, if you so choose to do so. But the Fact Remains that Scripture notes, that their were some concerns going on between Paul and some of the Others, whether you choose to focus on it or not. Please here me! By reminding you of this, I am in No way Stating that THe Holy Bible is not the Inspired Writings of Our Lord God! However, I am therefore stating that "SOME WORDS" in it, Are Not! We have the True Living Word, Living within us to Kick out for us the "words" that are not belonging to His authorship! You seem to be saying as many, always do, that The Laws of Sacrificing, Preistly Duties, etc. etc. are the Same laws, that the "COMMANDMENTS" are. They are not! The ones you speak of, were, and Are, as you say, Only FORESHADOWS, pointing to Christ. THis is FULLY the TRUTH! However the TEN Commandments of Which the Two Greatist Commandments hangs upon, are pertaininh not to a Forshadow of somthing to come, but to Somthing that HAS always BEEN! Which happens to be OUR GOD! Our Father! Our Creator! If we love "HIM" we will keep his Commandments! But HE fullfilled the law! You will not see me Sacrificing Again, spilling Blood Again for the Atonement of Sin! Jesus My Lord God, did it Once and Only Once for all Times with His Own Blood! LOve in Jesus Name. |
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Date: 4/8/2002 1:48:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
Paranoid, my dear btother in Christ. I am back and see that you have not been able as yet to get back to the post I left for you this morning. I was rather in a hurry while I was Submitting to you, because I was running out of time in so much as I thought, I was going to be late for work this morning. Praise the Lord, I made it Still right on time, but not a minute to spare.LOL. But that was good enough for me. Continuing on with our discussion, as I have some leasure now, I would like to add some thought to the "DAY" (Italic) thing. As much as I can see (To a Point) what you mentioned about Most people logicaly, who would assume the understanding was pertaining to the first day of the week, by the example of which you left, for me to ponder. I also, by another example, (the one I am about to leave for you) should too, cause you to ponder, that common Lodgic does not always have to be face valued fact. The Retired and Elderly, in the United States, all recieve their Social Security checks at the first of the month, so that they can have their money to pay on the Average, Most all of the standard living cost bills, which are commonly billed, and come due during the first 2 weeks of each month. We both know that they each, all recieve those checks, the first of the month, to pay bills that are comming due at such time! However to assume it arrives in their mailboxes, or direct deposits, on the First "DAY" of each month would be a Wrong Statement. THe Truth and the Facts are, They each find them in their places of delivery, on the 3rd day, unless the 3rd day falls on the First "DAY" of the week, which in such cases, they all recieve them the Friday before the 3rd day of the month. Also I would like to say, concerning Friday, the day before the Sabbath, it is taught in the Churches that Jesus was placed in the Tomb in or around very shortly before 6pm on the Friday he was Crucified. The Scriptures teach! So as Jonah was in the bellie of the Whale 3 Days "AND" 3 Nights, so shall the Son of Man ( Jesus Our Christ)be in the heart of the Earth 3 Days "And" 3 Nights. If you wish me to give book verse and Chapter as reference, let me know I will be happy to do so. The churches also teach that Jesus Arose Early Sunday Morning the first "DAY" of the week as the Mary's came to the tomb, when the Sabbath had Passed. Once again, I would have you take note. The word "DAY" in all the Gospils accounts are in Italic Type Also! Count with me. Jesus goes into Tomb sundown 6PM Friday. FRIDAY NIGHT (One Night) Saturday/Sabbath Night (Two Nights) Sunday NIGHT (three Nights)! In this case we need not bother with counting the Daytime Cycles, because you see the Churches cannot Get Jesus up and Out of the Tomb according to Scripture by Dawn Sunday Morning. But..., Leave out the word "DAY" in Italics that was added, and you can see that Monday at Dawn, you still are within the First of the week time frame. It has been argued that Because it was a High Sabbath,also of which was on top of the normal weekly Sabbath, that Jesus was Crucified on Thursday. Rather than, the most common of the Church teachings which point to Good Friday. Eyether/Either Way, one day is gonna have to be moved out, by extention, or another day is gonna have to be retracted, to get our LORD to remain in the Tomb 3 Nights, and Three Days! Those who hold to Sunday as a Sacred day of Church worship, would rather retract from Friday, so Jesus is still up on the Pagans Sun gods worship day. Now aint it strange how one little tiny word that was addmittingly added and noted, for the readers of the Bible, so they would have no exscuse at some later date, to throw blame onto them. How could this tiny little word cause such confusion? When they themselves willingly knew that Jesus could not have been out of the Grave in such a short time, given the Fact that He was placed in the Ground on What Christians know as good friday! The Churches (as a whole) are teaching lies somewhere according to the Inspired Scripture. I feel it is Our Individual Duty as Individual Christians to search for the Truth, and exspose those who would follow a lie, so that they might be ashamed, and Repent and Search for The Truth of Jesus in the Bible and forget about what Man Without Inspiration has taught as truth. The Truth is the Truth, and the Truth will set us free! The Men who penned the books of the Bible are unimportant to me. Their Names mean nothing to me, whether they were, or were not, Inspired by God, Or whether they Stole the Truth, Forgeing their name to it, or whether they added words of Lies, and called it truth! These/Those Men who penned the Bible have no signifigance to me. Only the Name of "ONE MAN" Jesus, and HIS INSPIRED WORDS, mean everything to me! He the Living Word which Dwells inside our Bodys will confirm for us the Inspired Writings. All names of all other men, who penned Gods Words are nothing, as importance to me. They are only instruments, used by God, and Sometimes satan, to sound out the Noise. The Master who is Blowing in the Instrument is the one who recieves the Credit! My Master is Jesus, as I know, He is yours too! The Rock, that held the Ten Commandments, is What seperates the Laws instructed to Aaron the Preistly line of Flesh, "FROM" Jesus (THE ROCK) the Priestly Line of Melchesidec! If it has been Commanded on the Rock, (Stone Tablet)It too, will be in Our Minds! If it was instructed to Aaron the Priest of the flesh, to perform. It was done away with! |
| Date: 4/9/2002 7:01:00 AM From Authorid: 24934 The Sabbath was given to the children of Israel to remember they were slaves in Egypt (Deut. 5:15). This law was not given to anyone before them (Dt.5:1-3). Many will say that because God rested on 7th day after creation that we to are to rest, yes God blessed it, yes God sanctified it, but for whom did he sanctify (set apart) the Sabbath? It is clear, the children of Israel as you have just read and were told why. I also have been told by 7th day Adventis that Adam and Eve kept the 10 Commandments, question, how did they keep the 5th? Now the sabbath, which was punishable by death, was taken away at the cross (Col.2:14; Eph.2:15). It was added because of transgressions until the seed should come, the seed is Christ (Gal.3:16-19). Notice the word "until" in that passage, the law which included the sabbath was "until" Christ came, and when he did, He fulfiled all that he came to do (Matt.5:17,18). Our Lord was not a failure, he said "I come to fulfil" and he did. The sabbath was not changed to sunday, the Sabbath was only for the Jews until Christ came. Nike |
Date: 4/9/2002 7:49:00 AM
From Authorid: 15621
Shucks, looks as though I missed out here..LOL  |
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Date: 4/9/2002 4:15:00 PM
From Authorid: 34476
Actually SixGun, you haven't missed a thing The discussion is still going on. I'm ingesting all of that info you left for me, Hadaam. I will definitely be replying more a bit later |
Date: 4/10/2002 3:56:00 AM
From Authorid: 24934
Nehimiah 9:13-14 states: "Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gave them right judgments and true laws, good statutes and commandments: AND MADE KNOWN UNTO THEM THY HOLY SABBATH, and commandest them precepts, statutes and laws, by the hand of Moeses thy servant." This is a verse that backs up Deut 5: 1-3,15 stating that the sabbath was only given to the Isralites and not to anyone before, this is important for the many that are falsely taught that the sabbath was kept from creation. God did bless and sanctify the 7th day as we read in Gen 2:1-3, but no where in those verses do we read of God giving the sabbath to man at that time. Not only is it not in Gen. 2 nor is it in any passage in Genesis. Do we read of Noah and his family resting on the 7th day from building the Ark? NO! The first time we come across the word "Sabbath" is in Ex.163, in the beginning of the chapter God is going to test the Isralites if they are going to obey him, he tells them that there will be no manna on the 7th day, but as we know there were some that failed the test and went out looking for manna. God knew that they would not "walk in his law" (Ex.16:4), this was to prepare them for when they reached Mount Sinai, and in a few weeks from there they did, God gave them the 10 commandments punishable by death. In the 10 God included the sabbath, the sabbath was sanctified by God for the children of Israel to remember they were slaves and God brought them out (Dt.5:15). The Sabbath was only in force as long as the Covenant that God made with them was in force. They broke the Covenant, not God. God said in (Jer. 31:31-32) that "the days would come that He would make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the Land of Egypt; which my convenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord." So when Christ came he gave us a New Covenant for both Jew and Gentile, in which the sabbath was taken away. "I will cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feast." "And in that day I will make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field..." Ho.2:11,18). So when God made a new covenant, the Sabbath, every feasts days which include the "other sabbaths days" CEASED!!! No more was it to be kept, the Jews that did not accept Jesus as the Christ the Son of God continued and continue to keep the sabbath day in vain. It is impossible to keep something that Jesus took away 2000 years ago, they "have fallen from grace" Gal.5:4. As the Apostle Paul put it: "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." (5:1). "But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire to be in bondage? Ye observe "days" and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain." (Gal.4-11). This is just a drop in the bucket of the many passages in the bible that clearly teach the sabbath is not for any christian today. Nikeinlogos |
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Date: 4/10/2002 5:01:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
Nikeinlogos, I havent got the time at this present moment to address, with further discussion with you, my understanding with your last replie. However, I will be back later to do so. Thank you for your comments. I have to go to work, at this time. |
| Date: 4/10/2002 10:51:00 AM From Authorid: 24934 ok Haadam, but please dont make it too long. That way it is easier to respond to your questions. Nikeinlogos |
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Date: 4/10/2002 11:48:00 AM
From Authorid: 34476
Thanks for adding more, Nikeinlogos I was unsure where to start in a new reply. I believe you have brought up some valid points, and am now going to wait for Hadaam to address them. |
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Date: 4/10/2002 6:45:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
." This is a verse that backs up Deut 5: 1-3,15 stating that the sabbath was only given to the Isralites and not to anyone before, this is important for the many that are falsely taught that the sabbath was kept from creation. With due respect I have to say the Sabbath Was kept from Creation by Our Lord God Himself. Currently from Adams Creation, we know Aproximately 6000 years has passed. Six Days according to god time in calculating them. One day to God, is as a Thousand Years to Man! Presently we are arriving at the Millinial Reighn of Christ, where He Rest' from his labors as we also will rest with Him from Our labor of struggles, as we have battled the ways of the World, with Christ. So even Though it is True as you imply, "WE" as in all man was not instructed from creation to keep the Sabbath, The MAN CALLED Jesus, Who Was Our Creator, was keeping it all along. Hes just about to Start the Seventh Day of His rest again. Now Nehemiah 9:15-16 teaches, the Water they Thirsted for came from the Rock, which is parallel to Both Jesus the Rock, and The Stone that Holds the Ten Commandments! The commandments of which verse 16 ends with. When Moses was told to speak to the Rock, the man Moses took it upon himself to Strike the Rock! Although God still used the man to "WATER" the children, it did not stop the Lord God from punishing the Man, where as he was not allowed to enter "INTO" the Promise Land. Moses in this lesson is also parallel to Paul. (please if you have not yet done so, go read my Post in the Religious section Titled " This is no coincidence! My fellow christians." and read my comment to another who responded) Now, back to this! (Ho.2:11,18). Is speaking to Israel for Spiritual Adultery. It is speaking as removing them feast days as a "PUNISHMENT"! You seem to be applying it as if God was removing them from us as a Blessing. I feel you have taken this out of Context. Re check the Reading again to see which it is being Applied. As a Punishment to Israel, or a Blessing! To me it is teaching, that because he removed them, it becomes "PUNISHMENT" for Spiritual Israel. Galatians 5 says, Behold "I" Paul say unto you. (WHO says? Who was Paul refering to? Jesus! Or "HIMSELF"?) that if you be "CIRCUMSIZED" Christ shall profit you nothing. WEll.., that all depends on whether one is speaking of the Foreskin, "OR" the "HEART" doesnt it! Then in verse 6 "PAUL" is saying. For in "JESUS" Christ "NEITHER" circumcision availeth anything, (SAY WHAT? Not even that which is in the Heart dear old Paul?) nor Uncircumcision: Faith which worketh by Love. Now James says in chapter 2 verse 18 of his writings that He will show a man his Faith By his Works. and is teaching to do otherwise would mean the mans faith is Vain (Useless). . Galatians 4:11 "I" am afraid of you, lest "I" have bestowed upon you labor in vain." "I"? Who was this "I" that he keeps speaking of? In verse 6 He, the "I" in which He refers to, said the Circumcission of the Heart (which "is" in Jesus Christ) Avails "NOTHING"! Seems like Jesus the Christ is being discredited here and "PAUL" is the one who is "STRIKING" the "ROCK"! So that the church can have Water. "This is just a drop in the bucket of the many passages in the bible that clearly teach the sabbath is not for any christian today." Yep, I agree, with One Exception! "Paul" is claiming to be the One who is Carrying the "BUCKET"! When we reach our Promised Land, that Holy City, New Jerusalem, will Paul, be Numbered with the Ones that is the numberd in the Foundaition? "Rev. 21:14" Im sorry, I still have to uphold only the LAW that was COMMANDED on THE Rock, the STONE Tablets JESUS,and God his Father! Only these commandments , concerning the Law, which Moses Struck, are written in my Mind. Grace covers me, for even they my Flesh cannot keep! But in the Mind of Christ, as my Rememberance continues to recall, by the upholding of them as to testifie of the Truth, Jesus Glorified Flesh Keeps them For me. His Grace of his Flesh, Covers my Flesh! I'm sorry I made it long again. Please forgive me. Love in Only Jesus Christ Name. |
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Date: 4/11/2002 3:52:00 AM
From Authorid: 24934
Haadam, Now you wrote: "With due respect I have to say the Sabbath Was kept from Creation by Our Lord God Himself." First of all God did not, nor did he ever keep the sabbath from creation! We read in Gen. 2 that God blessed it, he sanctified it, he ended his work on the 7th day, and he rested, but he did not keep it. "The Sabbath was made for man..."Mk.27) not for God! Jesus said: "Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath." (Mk.28). This applies to the Father as well Haadam, Jesus and the Father are Lord of every day not just the sabbath, and he is not bound to it. When Jesus was here he was "born of a woman, born under the Law" (Gal.4:4) As a Jew, as a man he was bound to the Law of Moses, but as Christ he is Lord of the Sabbath as is the Father. If you would read Ex.169,30 you will see God introducing the sabbath the Isralites for the very first time. If you would read Neh. 9:13-14 you would read how God "MADE KNOWN" to the Isralites the sabbath at Mount Sinai. If you will open your new testament to 2Cor.3:6-15 you will read the Holy Spirit calling the 10 Commandments the "ministration of death written and engraven in stone" and you would read that it is "done away" (vs.11). If the 10 Commandments were still in force today as it was given to the Isralites then the punnishment of death would also be in force, but yet only to the Children of Israel! And yet no one dies today when one of those ten are broken, Why? Something changed. "For the priesthood being changed, there is made a necessity a change also of the law. (Heb.7:12). Are you an Isralite, who God rescued from the Egyptians Haadam, living under the Law of Moses? because it was given to them, and not to any Gentile (Ro.2:14). Jesus came and made a new covenant with the House of Israel and with Judah, not according to the covenant he made with those he took out of Egypt (Heb.8:6-13). Now to make this simple and clear, 9 of the 10 were carried over into the New Testament, stealing, adultery etc. But the 4th the Sabbath was not! It was a "sign between God and the children of Israel ONLY (Ezek. 20:12,20). And for the purpose of bringing them to Christ, We today are led to Christ by the word; "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God." (Ro.10:17) And "we walk by faith not by sight" And "we are called by the gospel" (2Thess.2:14). So when we read in the New Testament not to commit adultery we obey due to the fact that we are commanded under the New Covenant not the Old. Here is a great passage that backs this up, Pleas read, Romans 7:1-7 in this passage you will read how we "are delivered from the law that states "thou shalt not covet" (vs.6-7). Does this mean we can covet, of course not, what it means is that we (Jews) are delivered from the 10 Commandments punishable by death. Remember the sermon on the mount? Jesus said: "you have heard before.... BUT I SAY UNTO YOU." So lets open up the New Covenant that we this side of the cross will be judge by and be "entangled again where our forefathers were not able to bear" I regret that I will not be able to come back for a while, may God bless you with wisdom in understanding his will. Nikeinlogos |
| Date: 4/11/2002 3:59:00 AM From Authorid: 24934 oopps, the bottom should read and "Now why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" Acts 15:10) |
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Date: 4/11/2002 7:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 13952
I would like to add to nikeinlogos comment but I cant think of a thing.....I am in total agreement with both nikeinlogos and paranoid.....good job... my brothers......... |
| Date: 4/11/2002 9:10:00 PM From Authorid: 51685 Does it really matter whether we use Saturday or Sunday as the Sabbath, just as long as we keep the day Holy? |
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Date: 4/11/2002 10:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 34476
I can only add this: Eph 2:11-18 "Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father." There is, of course, a bit more in this chapter, but these verses get to the heart of the matter |
| Date: 4/12/2002 3:08:00 AM From Authorid: 24934 Thanks Jim & Paranoid. Blue_egg shell asked the question: "Does it really matter whether we use Saturday or Sunday as the Sabbath, just as long as we keep the day Holy?" Yes it does matter, but to make a correction, we do not worship on Sunday the first day of the week, as keeping the Sabbath day which was the 7th day of the week. There is a gigantic difference between the two. The Sabbath was a day of rest where the Children of Israel were to remember that God took them out of Egypt (Dt.5:14), no work was to be done, no fire could be lit, strangers outside their gates were also not allowed to do any work, nor the animals. The punishement was death for breaking the Sabbath, we have an example in Numbers 15:32-36 where a man who was picking up sticks on the Sabbath was stoned to death by the congregation. If the Sabbath day is to be kept today (which would be by the Jews only) then the punishment of death would also continue to be inforced. Do the Jews today who break the sabbath die? No! Then why not? What happened? Who with authority dicided for the Jews to continue keeping the Sabbath, but the punishment of death was to cease? I remember clearly how the Jews wanted to kill Jesus for what they thought was breaking the sabbath. I remember how the two Thieves on the cross were put to death for breaking one of the 10 Commandments. So ask yourself this question, when did God cease the punishment of death for breaking one of the 10? "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that sanctify you. Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: everyone that defiles it shall SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH..." (Ex.31:13,14). The children of Israel were to keep the sabbath througout their generations, for a "perpetual convenant" (vs.16) The word "perpetual" has to do with "age lasting" The Sabbath was to be kept by the Isralites during the age of the covenant they were under. "Hear, O Israel...the Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, us, who are all of us here alive this day." (Dt.5:1-3). Then later we read: "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah, not according to the covenant I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of Egypt...(Jer.31:31-32). Sunday is not the Sabbath neither was it changed by someone in the past, dont believe everything you hear outside the Bible. By the way, it is impossible to keep something Jesus took away at the cross some 2000 years ago. Col.2:14 and Eph.2:15 could not be clearer. The Sabbath was abolished, it was nailed to the cross. Nikeinlogos |
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Date: 4/12/2002 4:56:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
Eggshells, According to Some, they say No it does not matter. According to My understanding it Does Matter. You will have to seek, from the Bible, which is correct by your understanding. |
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Date: 4/12/2002 5:14:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
The only thing left for me to state at this point is, I do not keep the Sabbath in the Regard as the Way the Children of Israel by flesh were instructrd to keep in in the Physical. I cannot, only the Lord of the Sabbath could do such things! Jesus was and is the Lord of the Sabbath. Therefore I keep the Sabbath in Jesus. I remember it, in my Mind because he does not let me forget it. I feel it would be in our best interist as a Witness to what is in our Minds, to gather on Sabbath as to Show by example, We have the Sabbath Memory In Christ Within our Hearts. Jesus Grace Keeps it for us in a Perfect way according to the Law, of which they were instructed to do, concerning what must be done if they broke the sabbath. The Holy Sunday Concept has taken away so many things of Gods Truth, because it was a Day of Sun God Worshipping by the Pagans. Those who are fervently involved in Sunday Worship on regular basis, seldom remember the Sabbath, ans in some cases Somtimes, are being led to believe it (Sunday) has become the Christian Sabbath. My love and regards in Jesus Christ Name. |
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Date: 4/12/2002 2:45:00 PM
From Authorid: 24934
Haadam, Jesus is no longer Lord of the Sabbath because he "took it out of the way nailing it to his cross" (Col.2:14); "He abolished it on the cross" (Eph.2:15). I cannot stress this enough. To be honest I have alot of trouble trying to understand how you come up with your interpretation of scripture, especially since alot of your comments are without scriptural references. For example you state: "I keep the sabbath in Jesus" Because Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath? is not a teaching from the Bible. The Isralites were not given the Sabbath because Jesus was Lord of the Sabbath. Please pay close attention to this, "Wherefore , my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ: that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God." " But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of the spirit, and NOT IN OLDNESS OF THE LETTER. What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the the law had said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET." (Ro.7:4,6,7). Haadam it is vital that you understand this. The Children of Israel had become "dead to the law by the body of Christ" (Hence,Col.2:14; Eph.2:15) That "they" should be married to Christ, and not the Law of Moses. Paul said: "we (the Jews) are dilivered from the law" What law are they delivered from Haadam??? The law that contains "DO NOT COVET (vs.7). This is the tenth commandment of the 10 Commandments (Ex.20:17). The law of Moses, the 10 Commandments, which include the 4th which is the Sabbath had become DEAD BY THE BODY OF CHRIST. According to this you are trying to keep something that the children of Israel, Apostles included, were freed from by Jesus. Therefore your sabbath keeping is in vain. Sunday is not a "christian sabbath" this is not a biblical term nor a teaching, this is mans doctrine. As Paranoid pointed out, we worship on the first day of the week "BY EXAMPLE" The chrisians gathered to worship God every first day of the week, the church began on the first day of the week (Acts 2) Jesus rose from the dead on the first day of the week, communion is to be taken every first day of the week, (20) the collection of the Saints is to be collected every first day of the week (1Cor.16:1-2)(ESV). So God sets the pattern and his faithful followers obey. There is so much more scripture I can use to prove the sabbath is no longer binding on the Jews, and the Gentiles and Christians were never under that "ministration of death written and engraven in stones" but my time is limited. I do this in hope that you and others would go over what you have been taught and take a second look at the scripture for those that "are justified by the Law have fallen from grace" (Gal.5:4). In Christ, Nikeinlogos |
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Date: 4/12/2002 7:32:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
Nikeinlogos, I am so sorry that I stand devided on this Issue with you, because I know what it means for you, to have me see and veiw, as well as understand, as you do, which instructs you that someone such as I, the way I believe have already fallen from Grace. You seem concerned for my well being. For this I am thankfull, but I still will Stand By What the Bible Teaches me. You are free from the law you implie, so that you can Lie, Steal, Commit Adultery, do Fornication, Break the Sabbath, all of Which You do not have to Follow by, or Live By, because you Believe Jesus took them all away, and they became dead by the Body of Christ. Very well, you may take your stand and Follow that rule, and Teach others by it. However, I cannot, and will not! I will try to Perform in My Body the Things Jesus Christ' Body Overcame by KEEPING THE LAW IN PERFECTION! And..., When I fail in my Attempt, as I know "I" in My Body cannot keep from Doing His Grace will Cover Me. Jesus Knows my Heart, He Knows My will is to be Like Him, and My Faith in Him, will show others, I believe in Him because I will be found Practicing all of the Law, that was written on Stone Tablets, which are now Written in My Mind, by the Power of His Holy Spirit. Do you Steal? Do you commit Adultery? Do you willfully Lie? Do you Willfully Bare false Witness? If you should answer No to these Questions, I would then ask you. "WHY NOT"? You teach me that all these became dead with the Body of Christ! If you answer you try and keep them, in some way of reverence to God, Then Why do you not do the Same for the Sabbath! Your way of teaching gives open range, for Serving Sin, because you are using Grace as the occasion to do so! I will Keep his commandments in the Body of Jesus Christ, While I attempt to keep them in my Flesh body as I am, being seen as one who is dieing Daily for the Cause of Christ. I will show you my Faith By my Works, of the keeping of the Ten Commandments! If I love Him, I will keep his commandments! My love in trying to keep them, is Why I am Free From having to keep them in perfection, because Jesus has already done it for me. My love and willingness for trying to keep his commandments is what is, causing his perfect Body of Glorified Flesh to Carry me, when My Body of Flesh Fails. His body, was freely Given to me to Share in His Own Personal Overcommings. Love in Jesus Name. |
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Date: 4/12/2002 9:56:00 PM
From Authorid: 24934
Haadam, you have failed to read the posts above, and the verses. You accuse me of teaching it is ok to commit adultery, to steal, etc. But what I wrote was that 9 of the 10 commandments were carried over into the New Covenant. The missing commandment is the Sabbath, no where to be found in the New Testament which had its beginning on the day of Pentecost, Acts 2. It is your job if you believe christians are to keep the sabath to show scripture in the N.T. Just show one Apostle, one christian who kept the Sabbath after Pentecost and you've proven your case. I have shown scripture proving the Sabbath is not binding on any christian on my above posts, so I will not repeat them. By the way, if you plan on using "Pauls custom" where on the sabbath it was his custom to go into the synogogues? You should understand that he was not there to worship with those non-christian Jews, who did not accept Jesus as Lord and Christ. Paul was not worshiping with them, but teaching them the gospel, to convince and persuade. "Paul as his manner was, went unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures" (Acts 17). "He reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks." Not worshiping, but taking advantage of many being gathered in one place. Nikeinlogos |
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Date: 4/12/2002 11:59:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
You wrote above. "Now to make this simple and clear, 9 of the 10 were carried over into the New Testament, stealing, adultery etc. But the 4th the Sabbath was not! It was a "sign between God and the children of Israel ONLY (Ezek. 20:12,20)". You also ask me! "Are you an Isralite, who God rescued from the Egyptians Haadam, living under the Law of Moses?" My answer to you is this! Galatians 3:16,29. Now to Abrahams and his seed were the Promises made. He saith not, and to "SEEDS", as of many; but as of "ONE", And to thy seed which is Christ. And if ye be Christ's then are ye Abrahams seed, and "HEIRS" according to the Promise. So, now I ask you. What did the Lord God say to Israel, Abrahams seed, in Ezekiel 200? I will Quote it for you! He said.., And hallow my sabbaths; and "THEY" shall be a "SIGN" between me and You, that ye may Know that "I" am the Lord your God. My Lord does not Lie! His inspired Writings teach me. That the things which was written on Tablets of Stone, (There were "TEN" not NINE) are written on the Tables of the Heart. (2nd Corinthians 3:3 Psalm 40) Now if God Did away with the 4th commandment as You and Paul would have me believe, Then that would make God out to be a Liar, Which My Lord God Jesus Christ is not, and cannot be! The Lord says it is a "SIGN" Between him and His People. It is a Mark that is Placed in the Frontlets between the Eyes, (THEIR MIND) and the hand too, will bare the Mark which the Mind Commands the Hand to obey. The Hand must Rest from Labor. You people, who willingly Break the 4th Commandment, Bare the Mark of the Thirteenth Apostle! The 4th Commandment keepers, Teachers, bare the Mark of God. For It is a "SIGN" between God and His People, the People of his Promise! |
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Date: 4/13/2002 7:20:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
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Date: 4/13/2002 10:28:00 AM
From Authorid: 34476
?!?!? Hadaam. Technically, wouldn't Paul be the 14th apostle? Also: II Peter 3:15-16 "and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand ..." I sense that this is the core issue. Not whether the 'sabbath' is to be followed today, but whether Paul's teachings ABOUT the sabbath are valid ones. We are warned that his teachings are hard to understand, but they are not wrong. They are not truths mixed with lies. They are scripture, as is the REST of the NT. This means they are to be studied and obeyed once they are understood |
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Date: 4/13/2002 10:39:00 AM
From Authorid: 34476
Also, in an earlier reply in you stated that those of us who are not following the sabbath are also teaching that it is OK to lie, cheat, steal, etc. This is not correct. Which one of these is OK to do if one loves the Lord with all his heart, soul, strength and mind??? Which one of these things is alright if one loves his neighbor as himself??? Jesus Himself said "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." (Matt 22:40) Also: I am very interested in WHERE one was told to keep the sabbath in Genesis, when God first made His covenant with Abraham. The first clear mention I see of any "sabbath" which was commanded to be followed by God is in Exodus 16, from God to Moses (ie. Jewish people) Are the previous men condemned because they did not follow the sabbath? (Noah, Adam, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob .....) Your premise that the sabbath has always been a command from God to man is in error. |
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Date: 4/13/2002 10:53:00 AM
From Authorid: 34476
I also fail to see how one may read the book of Hebrews and still believe that ALL commands (old testament and new) are to be followed. This would include tithing, feast-days, new-moon festivals, etc. Saying that Christ only did away with the 'sacrificial' aspect of the old covenant does not make any logical sense to me whatsoever. Heb 7:11-12 "Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also." Heb 7:18-19 "For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God." In these 4 verses one can read a setting aside of the COMMANDMENTS <----plural. One can also understand, from these four verses that the old law is no longer valid. Let's continue. Heb 8:6 "But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises." Heb 8:13 "When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear." This book was written before the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. Once that occurred, the old law (which was ready to disappear) DID disappear. There was (and is) no longer any earthly way to do what God commanded the Israelites to do. There is NO man who knows which Jews qualify to be Levites --therefore there can be no priests. There is NO temple --therefore no sacrifices. When the Romans destroyed Jerusalem, they left nothing but bare rock on the temple mount. I believe it was the Kidron valley where they dumped much of the debris from this destruction. Historians who visited Jerusalem later knew there was a city there ONLY because history said so. It was a barren pile of rubble. Never has a nation completely destroyed a city so completely. I believe this was God's attempt to end the discussion which we are having. No priests, no Jewish nation, no temple, no covenant. I'll add more later. |
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Date: 4/15/2002 3:24:00 AM
From Authorid: 24934
Haddam, Please dont rush thru this. (I). God made a "covenant" with the children of Israel. "The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The Lord our God made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, us, who are all of us here alive this day" (Deut.5:1-3). Now what did this "covenant" consist of? "And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even TEN COMMANDMENTS; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone" (Dt.4:13). "And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. "...And he wrote upon the tables the words of the COVENANT,THE TEN COMMANDMENTS" (Ex.34 7,28). This is irrifutable, The 10 Commandments and the Covenant are one and the same. Now what we have established so far is that (a) God made a covenant with the children of Israel, (b) this covenant was not made with their fathers, (c) the ten commandments & the covenant are both one and the same. (II). The covenant, the ten commandments include the Sabbath. "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you througout your generations..." "Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath througout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Ex.31:13,16). (a) "throughout their generations" (b) "for a perpetual covenant." "Perpetual" = Age lasting, the Isralites and their generations were to keep the sabbath throughout the age of the covenant. Now the sabbath was a "sign between God and the children of Israel FOREVER" (vs.16). But as we will see in the following verses the word "forever" does not always have the same context we put on it. "...It is the LORD'S passover" "ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout "your genereations"; ye shall keep it a feast day by an ordinace FOREVER." (Ex.12:11,14); "perpetual incence" (30 ); Jonah says when he went into mouth of the fish that "her bars were about me FOREVER" (Jonah 2:6); it might have seem like forever but we know it was only for 3 days. According to these verses the passover, and incence were to be observed forever, but we understand they are no longer to be observed. So as long as the "covenant" was in force, the passover, incence, and sabbath was in force, when the covenant ended so did the Sabbath. (III) God Replaces The Covenant. "behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord." (Jer.31:31,32). "Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second" (Heb.10 ). Jehovah in the Old Covenant proclaims He will replace the covenant he made with the Isralites, and countless passages in the new proclaim it is "done away" "abolished" (2Cor.3 ,13; Ro.7:1-7; Gal.34,25; Eph.2:15; Col.2:14). (IV). The question was raised by the Galations, "What then serves the law? (Gods answer "it was added because of transgressions, TILL the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator" (Gal.3:19). "The seed is Christ" (vs.16). Did you notice that little word "till" (until)??? The law was added because of the Isralites transgressions, but ceased when Christ came. "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, the LAW OF COMMANDMENTS contained in ordinances (the 10); for to make in himself of twain (Jew & Gentile) one new man (christian), so making peace." (Eph.2:15, emphasis mine). Remember, the Law of Commandments and the "covenant" are one and the same (Ex.34 7-28). Jesus abolished on the cross the covenant, the 10 commandments, the Sabbath ended here for the children of Israel. As I said before, 9 of the 10 are found in the new Covenant, the only commandment not found is the Sabbath. We (this side of the cross) adhere to what is commanded in the new Testament, I do not murder because the Isralites were commanded not to, but because I as a christian am forbided in the New. I do not keep the sabbath because it was given to the Jews, then taken away by Jesus himself some 2000 years ago. "I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts." (Hos.2:11) "And in that day will I make a covenant for them..." (vs.18); "...and I will say to them which were not my people, thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God." (23). When God made a new covenant, He opened the door to heaven for the Gentiles, the sabbaths were ceased, all the feasts days, and all solemn feasts were ceased. This clearly includes the weekly sabbath! "Saying, When will the new moon be gone, that we may sell corn? AND THE SABBATH, that we may set forth wheat..." "And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord God, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day." (Amos 8:5,9) This clearly is when Jesus died on the cross. "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the sabbath." (Col.2:16). Haadam, I find it an honor to be placed with the Apostle Paul in teaching Gods' truth, for you to deny Pauls writting as authentic is beyond me. The Apostle Peter wrote: "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (2Pt.1 0,21) NIV. The chosen people of God were the Isralites, but they broke the covenant (Heb.8 ). It was necessary that the word of God first be spoken to the Jews, but because they put it from them, and judged themselves unworthy of everlasting life, Paul and Barnabus turned to the Gentiles (Acts13:46). Gods' promise to Abraham was that thru his seed every nation under heaven would be blessed, the seed is Christ (Gal.3:16). Now the question is how can Jew or Gentile become "Christs'" and heirs to the promise? "By faith in Christ Jesus. For as many as you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christs', then are ye Abrahams's seed and heirs according to the promise." (Gal.3 6-29). This is how one becomes Christs' and heirs to the promise, by faith and baptism. The sabbath is no longer a sign between God and the children of Israel, it is not a sign between the church and God. It is those in the "church" that are now the people of God, and heirs to the promise. The sabbath with its punishment of death is a thing of the past. Nikeinlogos |
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Date: 4/15/2002 5:32:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
"I do not keep the sabbath because it was given to the Jews, then taken away by Jesus himself some 2000 years ago. "I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts." (Hos.2:11) "And in that day will I make a covenant for them..." (vs.18); "...and I will say to them which were not my people, thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God." (23). When God made a new covenant, He opened the door to heaven for the Gentiles, the sabbaths were ceased, all the feasts days, and all solemn feasts were ceased." Well..., I understand all of this which you have said and Quoted, that True it was Taken away from the Children of the Flesh, and Given to the Children by Adoption, and In Spirit, by Jesus Christ. It was Taken away from them of Flesh and Given and Applied to All of Who are Children by the Spirit. The New Covenant took the Old Covenant and Placed it in the Frontlets between the Eyes, and the Hand will lay Charge to that which is in Our Mind. (Our Hearts). However thank you for all the Good, and loving Conversation we have had on this subject. |
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Date: 4/15/2002 10:19:00 AM
From Authorid: 34476
Nikeinlogos, in an earlier "debate" I had with someone else, I ran across the word "forever" (see http://www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm121915.html if you wish to read it all). The Hebrew word is olam... and it literally means "for a designated amount of time" or "for its designated amount of time." I am very leery of the translation "forever" in these cases, as it can be very misleading. And thank you, Hadaam, for an interesting, informative discussion w/o all of the name-calling, etc I have seen in past discussions with others |
| Date: 4/15/2002 1:11:00 PM From Authorid: 24934 Same here, but before I go I would like you to come up with one shred of evidence where a christian kept the sabbath after the day of Pentecost. Please state the verse, if you cannot then humbly admit so. Nikeinlogos |
| Date: 4/15/2002 1:12:00 PM From Authorid: 24934 Same here, but before I go I would like you to come up with one shred of evidence where a christian kept the sabbath after the day of Pentecost. Please state the verse, if you cannot then humbly admit so. Nikeinlogos |
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Date: 4/15/2002 6:46:00 PM
From Authorid: 13952
haadam...paranoid....nikeinlogos.....I dont know when I have enjoyed being a small part of a great debate.....may I commend each of you for the great way that this was handled and for the way GODS word was used in your comments.......even though we may disagree we are one in Christ..... |
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Date: 4/16/2002 6:16:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
Nikeinlogos, In acts Chapter 13:46 you read where Paul turns to the gentiles. But yet in Acts Chapter 18:4 You read where Paul Reasoned EVERY Sabbath, Persuading the Greeks (Gentiles). By this time there were Many Gentiles and Jews who had been added to the Church. And Yet Paul is Still Teaching on the SAbbath Day. Paul was Staying with Aquila and his wife Priscilla as they were all tentmakers. They were Christians. Romans 16:3 confirms that they were. Also 1st Corinthians 16:19. So you "SHOULD" be able to see, that When Paul went to the Church At Corinth, and was Staying With Aquila and Priscilla, that He (Paul) reasoned with the Church there, Every Sabbath, and Persuaded the Greeks (Gentiles) as well as the Jews. Then in verse 6 you see where Paul added again, the Fact that He already told us back in Acts Chapter 13:46 where he was giving up on the Jews, and Going only to Gentiles, and those among them who would believe in Christ. If you tell me that Paul was only Preaching to the Jew without Christ at the Church of Corinth, on the Sabbath Day, then I will have to say! Then why, Does Paul do so, Again, and Again, After He already Quit the Jewish sabbath Teachings (by your understandings) back in Acts Chapter 13:46? Paul was Plainly teaching at Corinth, to the Church, every Sabbath, While staying with Aquila, and his Wife! Here is your one place, that will not allow me to Humbly admit otherwise. By your understandings by this time, there were no need to teach on the Sabbath Day, the Church at Corinth was already Present, and therfore could have been reasoning every Sunday. But they Wern't!Love in Jesus Name. |
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Date: 4/16/2002 11:22:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
Jim, you are correct. We are One in Christ. Love in Jesus Name. |
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Date: 4/16/2002 3:31:00 PM
From Authorid: 24934
Haadam, You are not reading carefully the passages you quote. Who did Paul reason with and where? He was reasoning in the "SYNAGOGUE" not in the church, and persuading Greeks and Jews to become christians. (Acts 18:4). He was not worshiping with them on the sabbath, he was not keeping the sabbath, but persuading, reasoning with non-christians, not the church. No where in the Bible does it ever say he "reasoned" with the "church, nor on any sabbath. The verses you quote (1Cor.16:6,19; Ro.3) do not help your case, your just throwing passages up in the air, misaplying them, and hoping we dont catch it. Yes Paul, Pricilla, and Aquilla were tentmakers, yes he stayed with them in their home, and yes they were christians, but you still have failed to come up with a verse or passage that shows a christian keeping the sabbath day as holy after pentecost! Until you do, respectfully you stand corrected. "Forasmuch as we heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying ye must be circumsised, and keep the law: TO WHOM WE GAVE NO SUCH COMMANDMENT: Acts 154. You nor anyone today is commanded to keep the sabbath. "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of THE SABBATH. WHICH ARE A SHADOW OF THINGS TO COME, BUT THE BODY IS OF CHRIST." Col 2:16,17. I knew you would try to use Paul teaching on the sabbath, so I before posted above ahead of time, here it is: "By the way, if you plan on using "Pauls custom" where on the sabbath it was his custom to go into the synogogues? You should understand that he was not there to worship with those non-christian Jews, who did not accept Jesus as Lord and Christ. Paul was not worshiping with them, but teaching them the gospel, to convince and persuade. "Paul as his manner was, went unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures" (Acts 17 ). "He reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, andpersuaded the Jews and the Greeks." Not worshiping, but taking advantage of many being gathered in one place. Nikeinlogos |
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Date: 4/17/2002 5:31:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
Nikeinlogos, It is I again. You seem to imply because the Word "SYNAGOGUE" is Used that it does not apply to the church The Men who have been set free, the Libertines. It has been my belief that the first 8 chapters of acts has a different writing style to the rest of Acts. This indicates to me that While luke started the book, Another who has a different writing Style ends the book. In Acts Chapter 6 verse 9, we read, Then there arose certain of the Synagogue, which is called the Syngogue of the Libertines and the Cyrenians and Alexandrians and of them of Cilicia, and of Asia disputing with Stephen. You see the "SYNAGOGUE" is used for the Church as well. In verse 11 you read of men who were bribed and Verse 13,who were bearing False witness against Stephen , saying he was Speaking Words Against the law. Why would the Greeks the Libertines, tell lies on Stephen, saying he was Teaching Against the Law of Moses. Isnt that what Paul did? Stephen was going to be stoned for the same things Paul was Accused of doing. And yet you read Where Men of the Church of the Synagogue were Bribed to Bare false Witness against Stephen, in verses 11 and 13. So Stephen "WAS NOT" teaching Against the Law of Moses. Was He? Before the Church was established, who Mainly was the Synagogue for? The Jews, Correct! The greeks did not partake in the Synagogue Ceromonies. Buy yet at Corinth, you read of Greek Gentiles, as well as Jews in Them. Why? Because the Synagogues became places of worship for the Libertines. So as far as I am Concerned the Sabbath reasonings, in the Synagogues were for the church. But again, Do not forget "WHAT FALSE WITNESSES" charged Stephen with, that cause him to be stoned!! Stephen was innosent of the Charges! Paul was Guilty of it!! |
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Date: 4/17/2002 8:00:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
Nikeinlogos,You said that the Church Did not Teach or meet in the Synogogues! Well please read your dear old Pauls, Own Words! Acts 22:19 And I said "LORD" They (the Church) know that I Imprisoned and Beat in "EVERY SYNAGOGUE" "THEM" that "Believed) on THEE!! The Jews as a whole, did not Believe on Jesus! This is Speaking as in reference, to the Church who believed on Jesus> Saul, Beat them in the Synagogues Where they Met! Do you still say the Church did not meet in Synagogues? |
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Date: 4/17/2002 8:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 34476
Both examples you have given us show a "where", not a "when". Here is the why: Acts 17:17 "So he was reasoning in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Gentiles, and in the market place every day with those who happened to be present." Reasoning in the synagogues. And market place. Every day with those who happened to be present (God-fearing Gentiles and Jews). Is the CHURCH (ie. the believers/followers of Christ) meeting there as well? If they were, I could bet that the Jews would not allow them to meet there very long. (Acts 22:19 ... which you have already quoted) It'd be like a pentecostal preaching at an Islamic shrine every time others met there to "teach" them new doctrines. Sure, some other Christians may be there, but predominantly the people who are of that religion will be in attendance ... and would eventually throw them out of the building! (or worse) I would NOT call this the assembly of the saints OR a "keeping of the sabbath". |
| Date: 4/18/2002 3:24:00 AM From Authorid: 24934 Good job Paranoid and thanks, I dont think I could have given a better reply. Haadam, I remember reading: "Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God." (Jn.12:42-43). More later, Nikeinlogos |
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Date: 4/18/2002 5:44:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
Nikeinlogos, John 12:42-43 was Before Penticost! It was Before Christ Death Burial, and Resurection. After Penticost, which all those who had believed, had recieved the Holy Spirit, They also recieved Power in Boldness,that removed the fear of being put out of "ANYTHING", EVEN Their Physical LIVES! What happened before penticost, before the cock crowed 3 times? Where was his Boldness? Did it happen again After Penticost? No, it did not! You still did not respond to the Question I ask, concerning Stephen and what he was "FALSLY" accused of! Was Stephen Guilty, of saying things Against the LAW OF MOSES and GOD, as you have said? You said the Law of Moses did not apply to the New Testiment Church. Was Stephen a Man of the New Testiment Church, who was full of the Holy Spirit? Tell me again, What was Stephen "falsly" Accused of, and what was he STONED to death because of? Was it because He was Speaking "AGAINST" the Law of Moses, and God? But he wasn't, was he? Neither do I! So am I also, one who would be counted worthy, of Stoning, such as Stephen was? Saul (more than likely) was the one who "BRIBED" the witnesses, to "FALSLY" Accuse Stephen of Speaking AGAINST the LAW OF MOSES, and God. Because Saul was the One whom the Men layed their cloths at his feet, After Stephen was stoned, Acts 7:58. Was this their way of Letting Saul know Who, took the Bribe? The very thing Stephen was "FALSLY", (I said "FALSLY" accused of and was killed for, Saul later, (under the Name of Paul) was GUILTY of, and In Fact "DID", preach to the Church. Why? What was so wrong with the New Testiment Church, (that was not against the Law of Moses, and God), that was "FULL" of the "HOLY SPIRIT, that it needed someone such as Saul to deliver it from their Un-Holyness Stooper? Why did you not Address this thing about Stephen, of Which I asked you? Will you now please do so? |
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Date: 4/18/2002 6:19:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
Paul preached Liberty, Like the Freedmen! Paul himself was a Freeman! He was a Jew, "AND" a Born free Citizen of ROME! The Higher Authoritys of ROME, could not punish or make him a slave, because he was a Jew, as they did other Jews, which was veiwed as a Lower Class of People by the Romans, because Saul/Paul was a FREE Roman Jew. Because he was Born of Rome, he was not looked upon as a Jew. There were others like him. Who Believed, and was from the SYNAGOGUE of the FREEMEN, Acts 6. Did Paul not Teach in the Church that we have Liberty, from the Law of Moses? He taught we, (the Church) that we were free from the Law. In Galatians 2:11 Paul says "No Man" is Justified by the Law in the Sight of God. Did he forget Jesus Here? Was Jesus a Man? Did the "MAN" called Jesus Justifie the Law of God, because He kept the Law of God "PERFECT"? Did Jesus Sin against the LAW? NO He did NOT! Oh but Paul must have forgotten the "MAN" called Jesus huh! I am justified by Jesus, because Jesus the Man Justified the Law! I Live in Him, and He lives in Me, therefore I too, am Justified as Keeping the Good Law of God. By I, in "MY" Flesh Body cannot Justifie what has Already been JUstified! Therefore I only can, Strive in my Body to Do, that which was already done, as a Show of FAITH that I believe Jesus the "MAN" did it for me, because HE WAS GOD HIMSELF IN FLESH! My works, My Attempts to Strive according to the ten Commmandments is my Show of FAITH IN JESUS MY GOD THE OVERCOMMER OF THE FLESH! When My Flesh fails at the Commandments, Jesus Glorified Flesh Carries me! |
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Date: 4/18/2002 12:50:00 PM
From Authorid: 34476
Acts 6-14 "And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people. But some men from what was called the Synagogue of the Freedmen, including both Cyrenians and Alexandrians, and some from Cilicia and Asia, rose up and argued with Stephen. But they were unable to cope with the wisdom and the Spirit with which he was speaking. Then they secretly induced men to say, "We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses and against God." And they stirred up the people, the elders and the scribes, and they came up to him and dragged him away and brought him before the Council. They put forward false witnesses who said, "This man incessantly speaks against this holy place and the Law; for we have heard him say that this Nazarene, Jesus, will destroy this place and alter the customs which Moses handed down to us."" First point: these people who brought Stephen to the council were from the synagogue of the Freedman. There is no mention of where Stephen was speaking at the time he was dragged off to court. One could assume he was at their synagogue, but that's all it would be: an assumption. Nor is there any mention of what day he was speaking to them on. For all we know, it was Wed. Second point: They were unable to cope with what he was teaching. For more insight into what that was, read Acts 7, specifically vs. 51-53. Third point: you are assuming something VERY big about the false witnesses. Acts 6:13-14 "They put forward false witnesses who said, "This man incessantly speaks against this holy place and the Law; for we have heard him say that this Nazarene, Jesus, will destroy this place and alter the customs which Moses handed down to us."" Was Stephen's testimony false? Is that NOT what Jesus said would happen in Matthew 24, Luke 17 and Luke 21??? The WORDS were not false ... the witnesses were. Something about these witnesses was false. Deceptive. Wrong. Maybe these "men who were induced" to speak against him were not there at that time. Maybe these men never heard Stephen utter those words. Maybe Stephen never said those thigns (albeit they WERE the truth) at that time OR at that place. There is no reliable "fact" here which tells us what was false about their "witnessing" against Stephen. These men who accused him were apparently not qualified to do so, for reasons unknown to us at this time. I see no basis from these scriptures to believe what Stephen taught was "false." |
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Date: 4/18/2002 3:08:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 10146
Paranoid, you said.., . Maybe Stephen never said those things (albeit they WERE the truth) at that time OR at that place. There is no reliable "fact" here which tells us what was false about their "witnessing" against Stephen. No Fact? Would Jesus allow Non Facts to be Printed in the Bible, without exsposing them? What the Bible says was Fact, About the False Part of the Witnessing, was the "FACT" that the witnesses Lied and said Stephen was Blaspheming the "LAW of Moses" and the CUSTOMS!! The custom was to KEEP the TEN COMMANDMENTS! Stephen did not say, we no longer have to keep them. Nor did Jesus!! The Temple, (NOT THE SYNAGOGUE)the "TEMPLE" would be torned down and in Three days And Nights, it was Raised Again, With The Commandments Still in Tack. THe Body, Became the Temple. The Body of Christ was RAISED! By the SAme Spirit that Raised that Body of Christ, is now in Our BODY TEMPLE! THe Law, of the Ten Commandments are still there, in Our MINDS! Stephen, Knew this! Stephen also Taught this. But the False Witnesses, Accused Stephen of Speaking Against the custom of the Law with its commandment keeping, because the Body of Christ in Spirituality, Replaced the Physical Temple of wood, Brick, and Stone. To replace something with another Something "FAR GREATER" does not mean the Custom is Banished. The custon is now written in the Christian Mind! Paul, the Freeman, is the "ONE" man who Claimed the Commandments with its custom was Done away with! This, the man called Paul repeatedly, repeats! Stephen did not say these things! He was Falsly accused of What Paul was Actualy Guilty of! Can you sit on the other end of this Computer somewhere, and Honestly Say that You cannot See the Differences between Stephens Teachings, and Pauls Teaching? The "FACT".., had to do with the Law and the Customs of MOSES!!! If Jesus Wanted the "CHURCH" to Abolished the Law of Moses and the Ten Commandments of God, (like Paul always Taught they were) THEN Why, did not the Scripture Reflect that Stephen "WAS" Rightfully doing so, (ALSO) as He was Filled with the Holy Spirit? But HE WASNT.., WAS HE? He was Stoned to death because they thought He was teaching the Things Saul later Taught under the name of Paul. I give up on you! I just want to wash my hands of you! Now You may be feeling the same thing with me! Are we allowed to do that? Paul Did! He gave up, on those who would not Hear and recieve him. He went to someone else who would! Didn't he? I love you my Brother in Christ. Our God, Knows I do! But we have something dividing us! Is it I? Is it "THIS" man "MYSELF"? My given name is Don! Is it Don, that has brought this division between us? I think the Division came from a man named Saul of Tarsus! I will be in Prayer for you! Please Continues to do so for me! Do not Pray Paranoid, on me, Or Paul on Me, Or James, John, Peter on me. Pray "TRUTH" down on me! His other name is "JESUS"! Pray Jesus down on me! The Church has divisions in them! This is not good. Love in Jesus Christ name. |
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Date: 4/18/2002 8:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 34476
But Jesus DID alter the customs which Moses handed down to them! Jesus DID prophecy (correctly) that the temple would be destroyed! Whether the falseness of the witnesses are the WORDS which they used, or the ACTIONS which they took is not clear. This is my main point. You are assuming it is the words. I am stating "I don't know" as I do not believe there is enough evidence in these scriptures for us to state "this is what was false" with their witnessing against Stephen. A logical inference from these passages could be that SOMETHING which they said was error, but there are no clues given to us as to what, exactly, that error is. All we are doing here is guessing. You have also mentioned that replacing something does not necessarily mean that what was replaced is banished or "done away with". This can be the truth at times, and at other times it is not the truth. When my house needed a new roof, the old shingles were replaced. They were effectively "banished" into a large metal bin, and the NEW ones are now in place on my roof. Are they the same as the old ones? No. Do they serve the same purpose as the old ones? Yes. But they are definitely different! I am now reminded of Hebrews 8:13 "When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear." Back to my comparison: my old shingles used to "save" my roof from destruction. But... once they were no longer useful for this, they were replaced with NEW ones which are different, yet still save my roof from damage! When the temple was destroyed, the old law "disappeared" from the face of the earth, as there is now no earthly way to follow it. The new law has effectively replaced it. The intent and purpose are still the same, the METHODS are entirely different. As I stated before: which laws haven't carried-over into the new covenant? Only the one which we are currently discussing. All others have been re-stated in one form or another. (I'm talking strictly about the 10 commandments now, NOT all of the other laws and customs) *wow* Lots more stuff in your reply. As I don't have more of Stephen's teachings than Acts 6 and 7, I don't believe I am qualified to say that I know all of what he believed. I cannot compare Paul to Stephen, except to say that they were two completely different men with completely different backgrounds which would make their WORDS which they use different. The message (since they were both guided miraculously by the H.S.) would be the same if they were talking about the same subject. For me to make a judgement on this would be the equivalent of my walking into any "church" on any given day and hearing only one sermon ... and deciding that I now know all they believe in. Fortunately, it takes me a bit more time to form judgements about what others believe or don't believe. Hope I addressed all the issues you raised with this reply And Don, as I am always striving for the truth myself, I will certainly pray truth to come upon you! Please do the same for me as well |
Date: 5/29/2002 10:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 46266
Wow, I had no idea this was going on - thanks for pointing me here Paranoid! I will confess I have not read all of the replies here yet, but I'm very encouraged by Hadaam, Thunderhead, and Boom Boom's knowledge of scripture. I personally dedicate the Sabbath to God, and do no work from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset. Is that too much for him to ask? No way. Why should we keep the Sabbath holy? Because God sanctified it in Genesis 2:3, and sanctification means "to make holy." Nowhere did the Sabbath become defiled by God, demoted to the rank of an ordinary day, and that is indisputable - regardless of your opinion of God's commandments.  |
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Date: 5/29/2002 10:15:00 PM
From Authorid: 34476
Romans 14:5 "One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind." I believe this verse says it all. |
Date: 5/30/2002 11:30:00 AM
From Authorid: 30742
Can someone please show me how you no the exact day God rested. Where oh where does it say it was " saturday'?? yes, it does say the seventh day. Do you think God is interested in the "day" or the commandment that we need rest, because he rested on the 7th day. Most people work for five days , the point here is to "rest" after working for six days. Lets stop arguing over the law, and love God from our heart, and don't judge someone on the day they 'rest'. As Paul said in Col 2:16........God Bless you all.  |
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Date: 5/31/2002 2:31:00 PM
From Authorid: 46266
Paranoid, what is that verse saying? It tells you to become "fully convinced in your own mind." How do we do this? By studying, and taking part in USM discussions, LOL! Which day did God esteem over the others? Since we are to have the 'mind of Christ,' which day did Jesus esteem over the others? I am fully convinced in my own mind that Saturday is the day we are to regard above the others. Are you FULLY convinced that it's Sunday? If not, read that verse again, and do something about it. |
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Date: 5/31/2002 2:34:00 PM
From Authorid: 46266
Ah Ms. Morality, once again do not neglect to mention Colossians 2:14, which explains what days verse 16 is talking about. =] |
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