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| Date: 6/7/2000 6:29:00 PM From Authorid: 9528 I agree with some of your reasonings, but u have me confused in some areas. To me u're contradicting urself; ist u say (from my interpretation) we are born this way, it's our nature, which is true but u talk like there's nothing we can do about it, then to the end u talk about a way out. please clarify if u will. |
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Date: 6/7/2000 6:41:00 PM
From Authorid: 6557
SIN IS ANYTHING YOU FEEL IS WRONG OR GUILTY ABOUT. ONLY YOU AND GOD KNOW IF YOU SIN. GOD BLESS...LB  |
Date: 6/7/2000 6:47:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 9544
Author 9528 study the word of God and you'll see what I'm talking about. Sincerely--Norman  |
| Date: 6/7/2000 7:34:00 PM The fallacy preached by the Christian religion is that man will "sin" no matter what. If that is true, then God is a wicked, evil entity for placing rules that cannot be followed on his creations (man). Religions are corrupt and of man. So are their teachings. They do not speak for God, they only speak for themselves (men), just as you do. Preachers do not bring peace and joy to the world, they bring evil and misery. So who is their god/s? |
Date: 6/7/2000 7:54:00 PM
Hi Norman..God says sin is the trangression of His laws..All unrighteousness is sin(1 John 5:17)..Whatever you do..if it isn't done with a clear conscious..It is sin (Romans 14 3)..Sin is lawlessness (1 John3:4)..To him that knows to do good but does not do it..it is sin (James 4:17)..We are born innocent of any sin but the first time we begin to realize right from right and choose to do wrong,we are guilty of sin..We are held accountable to God when we commit sin or break His laws..Sincerely Oxy |
Date: 6/7/2000 8:40:00 PM
From Authorid: 8663
Hi guys- Did Christ die or did He not die for all of our sins?(plural)...(1Jn 2:12)I am writing you because your sins have been forgiven.(Heb 10:17)Your sins and lawlessness I will remember no more.(2Cor 5:19)God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself NO LONGER counting our sins against us. Seems to me the answer would be yes He did Take away the sins of the world (Jn 19) So having cleared that up- that leaves us with Christ's definition of sin(singular) "I return to convict the world of sin because they did not believe in Me" Jn 16 ,9) which chimes in with Oxy's statement regarding Paul's definition of sin in the book of Romans chapter 14 vs.23 "That which is not of faith is sin"Also regarding the first post who inquired about our sin nature-according to the scripture When we come to Christ we have become a new creature(2Cor 5:17) in which our sinful nature is now replaced with the person of Christ.Therefore it is no longer I who lives but Christ who lives in me(Gal 20) Hence- we are now governed by the Spirit rather than the flesh as we walk in the newness of Life and renew the Spirit of our mind.(Gal 5:16)I hope that helps....Grace and Peace  |
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Date: 6/7/2000 10:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 4902
NORMON SIN is the ultimate disease{ the disease of diseases} t JESUS is the ultimate cure {JESUS the cure of cures for the agony of Sin}please read directions carefully; only one application needed.....GOD BLESS. RANGERIDER  |
Date: 6/8/2000 5:34:00 AM
From Authorid: 582
"Being born into sin", was the best thing Adam and Eve could have done for us. If not for their "mistake" we couldn't experience all there is to learn from here on Earth. Everything would be perfect, but we wouldn't know the meaning of perfect because we'd know no other way of life. Jesus was sent to us as an example of how we COULD live our lives if we were at a higher level of consciousness. His greatest gift was that he saw everyone as who they truly are. He refused to accept appearances; he refused to believe what others believed of themselves. He always had a higher thought and he always invited others to it. Yet he honored where others chose to be. He did not require them to accept his higher idea, merely held it out as an invitation. He dealt, too with compassion, and if others chose to see themselves as Beings needing assistance, he did not reject them for their faulty assessment, but allowed them to love their Reality, and lovingly assisted them in playing out their choice. Jesus knew that for some the fastest path to Who They Are was the path THROUGH Who They Are Not. He did not call this an imperfect path and thus condemn it. Rather he saw this, too, as "perfect", and thus supported everyone in being just who they wanted to be. I don't believe in "Sin" as the Churchs would have us believe, attempting to put us in FEAR for our souls. Where the soul is concerned, there is no evil. We are all good in spirit form. No evil. In heaven there is nothing but love, always and in all ways. It's when we chose to be reborn into this world that we encounter what it is that "man" has created. It's truly a gift to be able to come down here and experience life and all it has to offer. It's mans law that physically punish the crimes/sins that are commented. God sees all that is done and I'm sure he's disappointed, but not in the way we think. The mistake is in thinking that God thinks like we humans do, but he sees so much more. He knows the soul personally, and he knows what it is that we are striving to accomplish. Can you not see that? Just think about it. What makes us think that he feels as we do? That's a trait of ours and he's so much above us, even more so when we are in human form and using our brains and not listening to our souls. This is where I'm jumping off. I hope this has enlightened you, but if not. Then this path is not for you and I'll leave you to your beliefs, after all, no ones beliefs of their lives is wrong. God bless  |
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Date: 6/8/2000 8:15:00 AM
From Authorid: 4902
HI NORMAN, HI OXY. I will post this on the board for all to see...but I wanted you to know first{but you already do Norman} I am leaving as of today or tomarrow for three weeks. Norman if OXy does not come back here to see this post then tell him along the way that I want you and HIM if he will to answer my stories for me. Now I would also say to you both to walk with wisdom concearning some....that have been abusive toward the small flock that comes here for the Lord Jesus Christ because not all have him in their Heart {I am comvinced of this} their claim is as an empty bucket.remember that SATAN can also quote scripture but the real test is do we love our brothers and sisters in Christ. 9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. 11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes. GOD BLESS AND KEEP YOU UNTIL I RETURN.....Riding off into the sunset with Jesus.....RANGERIDER |
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Date: 6/8/2000 8:46:00 AM
From Authorid: 8663
Chelle-You bring up some very good ideas as to how God is above our small way of thinking-As to the later post- would Satan ever declare the Grace if Christ crucified and risen? Would Satan ever say- Christ is alive in me my only hope of glory? Would he ever declare that Jesus Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords and That Christ Himself is God? I don't think so! Satan couldn't even type it let alone say it- Grace to you |
Date: 6/8/2000 10:54:00 AM
From Authorid: 5881
I feel that because Jesus did die for us, and that his life was for us to follow his example, then all we have to do is live the life Jesus wanted us to. When we fail and do sin, as long as we know what we did was wrong and are genuinely sorry for that wrong, then I think we are forgiven.  |
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Date: 6/8/2000 11:32:00 AM
From Authorid: 8663
Well said Floralove. Grace and Peace |
| Date: 6/8/2000 5:04:00 PM What Ye sow so shall Ye reap.If you put pain and hate and misery into the world those things belong to you , and in time will return to you. But the same is true of love and kindness. We may not always see it but justice is eternal.-Gandwere |
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Date: 6/9/2000 4:25:00 AM
From Authorid: 9269
582, I sorry but I don't understand why you think it is better that Adam and Eve did sin. Only to live in the world we know today? I would gladly live in a world with no pain, suffering, hunger, lust, illness, etc... Sorry but I must totally disagree. Great information 9544, our pastor taught on the same subject two weeks ago. |
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Date: 6/9/2000 4:39:00 AM
From Authorid: 582
8663 I don't believe in satan. I believe we create the world in which we live our personal lives, and I don't chose to have satan in mine. My belief, what I've come to believe, through what's known as enlightenment, is that we all have a purpose here, something in which we are supposed to remember and strive to become. In doing that we often make the wrong choices. Not wrong in the definition that we think "wrong" to be, but what's personally wrong for us. When we pass away and die, I believe that we go through a type of replay of our life and we see where went and what choices where made or passed up. We go through several of these lives we've lived and we see what it was we were striving to experience and what we could have done different. When the time is right and we're ready, we chose our parents according to what it is we're striving to achieve and experience and pray we get it right this time around. That's the hardest part in life is to wake up and "remember" spiritually what we're here to experience. This all boils down to what we're down here to do, which is to help God experience everything. Think about it. God is perfect, he is everything that is and isn't. Like The Garden of Eden of long ago being perfect, so is God, but in order to see how perfect he is he want's to experience all through us. All the good and all the bad. It's up to us. It's unfortunate that those who create heinous crimes aren't at a higher level of consciousness and don't seem to care about what it is they are doing here on Earth, but when they die and have their lives to look back on and see what it is they have done to themselves and to others there will be great sorrow for them, and that is because where the soul is concerned, there is no evil. We are all good in spirit form. No evil. In heaven there is nothing but love, always and in all ways. It's when we chose to be reborn into this world that we encounter what it is that "man" has created. It's truly a gift to be able to come down here and experience life and all it has to offer. It's mans law that physically punish the crimes that are commented, satan has no role here. God sees all that is done and I'm sure he's disappointed, but not in the way we think. The mistake is in thinking that God thinks like we humans, but he sees so much more. He knows the soul personally, and he knows what it is we are striving to accomplish. Can you not see that? Just think about it. What makes us think that he feels as we do? That's a trait of ours and he's so much above us, exspecially as we are now, in human form,using our brains and not listening to our souls. Anyway, I'm not judging others beliefs/religion, just because I'm strong in my beliefs without having a religion, doesn't give me the right to criticize others who aren't. God Bless |
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Date: 6/9/2000 10:04:00 AM
From Authorid: 8663
Chelle-I can truly appreciate where you are coming from. I have appreciated a number of your posts. I too believe that perhaps when it is all said and done there may be be a replay of sorts, and I may be given the chance to re-live all of life's decisions and experiences. And with the fullness of the Grace of God and Christ living in me- I trust everything will weigh out as He sees fit.(I don't know how biblical this outlook is- but it is still something that I think about)As to my reference to Satan earlier, I was merely responding to what may have been a post that might refer to me as Satan.Thank you for taking the time so early in the morning to get across to me what was on your heart-Grace |
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Date: 6/9/2000 11:28:00 AM
From Authorid: 582
I didn't realize it was getting so wordy. I just can't stop when I get started, I feel so passionately about it. I hope no one thinks I'm pushing my views onto them. Of course if anyone feels that way, they can simply stop reading huh?...lol. Thanks for taking the time to respond to such a windy comment Grace! |
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Date: 6/9/2000 11:31:00 AM
From Authorid: 582
9269, my point is that we do all live in a perfect place, when we decide to go home to Heaven. But times arise when we want to experience things only possiable in an imperfect world. If you wanted to only live in Heaven and experience nothing but a state of perfection, you'd still be in heaven now, of course this is just my vision of the way this wacky world is working for us...Thanks for reading it though. It's all very though provoking never the less...lol. God Bless |
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Date: 6/9/2000 11:50:00 AM
From Authorid: 582
Norman, please reread my posting, No way did I say that earth is perfect. I'd be absolutely crazy!!!...lmao. |
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Date: 6/9/2000 11:55:00 AM
From Authorid: 582
oops, I guess you just reread it...hehe |
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Date: 6/9/2000 12:02:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 9544
Author 582 I'm sorry but I totally disagree that we all live in a perfect place. Here is why I disagree:1. If this world was a perfect place then Jesus wouldn't have had to come the first time to pay the terrible price for our sins and redemption correct? 2. Jesus wouldn't have to come a second time to cut this Earth short for righteousness sake. 3. Look at the woes in our own society. Poverty, run away inflation, corruption, crimes of every sort, war, racism, the moral fiber being stripped away daily, death, disease, homelessness, hunger, natural and man made disasters, drug addiction, sexual perversion, and the list goes on. I simply can't ignore these things taking place daily and it is having a devastating effect on all of mankind. Sincerely--Norman |
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Date: 6/10/2000 2:03:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 9544
To the person who commented:"The fallacy preached by the Christian religion is that man will "sin" no matter what. If that is true, then God is a wicked, evil entity for placing rules that cannot be followed on his creations (man). Religions are corrupt and of man. So are their teachings. They do not speak for God, they only speak for themselves (men), just as you do. Preachers do not bring peace and joy to the world, they bring evil and misery. So who is their god/s?." It is no wonder Jesus said:"Ye do err not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God." Sincerely--Norman |
| Date: 6/10/2000 4:50:00 PM Hi, Chelle, You have such wisdom, keep up the good work. Norman, perhaps you should actually READ what Chelle wrote. Who are Moab and Ammon, where did they come from? HINT: They're in your bible. |
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Date: 6/11/2000 12:37:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 9544
To the person who wrote:"Who are Moab and Ammon, where did they come from? HINT: They're in your bible." What does your questions have to do with the written word of God? Here are the answers-Moab was the son of Lot. Unfortunately Lot was set up by both of his daughters. They gave him wine to drink two nights in a row and while he was asleep both daughters took turns having sex with him each night while he was asleep and didn't know what was going on. Both of his daughters committed incest. The oldest of the two daughters had a son by her father and named him Moab. That is where the Moabites originated from who practiced idolatry. Moab was also a country located on the east of Jordan and the Dead Sea. Lot's younger daughter named her son Benammi. Thought you might want to know. Read Genesis 19:31-38 regarding Lot's daughters committing incest. Ammon, also known as Benammi was the son of Lot's younger daughter. The Ammonites were of the lineage of Ammon or Benammi, which ever name you prefer to use. The Ammonites also committed idolatry. Your point is? Sincerely--Norman |
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Date: 6/12/2000 3:41:00 AM
From Authorid: 582
Norman, I know you must not being reading my posts because I just explained why all these things are and have been happening. Would you please read my post...the true gift from Adam and Eve, and try to not think of reasons why you don't agree while reading it and just have an open mind enough to see the possiabilities. As always, thanks. Blessed be. |
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Date: 6/12/2000 3:44:00 AM
From Authorid: 582
Now that I think of it, It says almost the exact same thing, so how about just reading what it was I posted here, I don't think by reading your reply that you truly read it. |
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Date: 6/12/2000 4:22:00 AM
From Authorid: 582
BTW, thanks anonymous for your comment, I've been doing a great deal of soul searching and kind of "fell" upon some readings that have helped in this journey of mine...smiles. I'm a better person and have much fewer worries than ever before. Blessed be to you |
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Date: 6/12/2000 4:40:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 9544
Chelle, I've read all of your posts. There are a few things you say on your posts I don't agree with and thats the way it is. Sometimes we agree and sometimes we disagree nothing personal. For instance you don't believe in the existance of Satan but I do and I have my reasons which to me are very good reasons. I don't believe that when we die we go to another plane of existance as higher beings for the Lord plainy states when we die all of our thoughts and memories perish. We know nothing when we die. You believe in an afterlife I don't believe in it. I implicitly believe in the word of God and so far He hasn't been wrong. Peace--Norman |
| Date: 6/13/2000 12:32:00 PM Nice spin, Norman. God killed people in this story who "sinned." One of which was a person He had saved, Lot's wife. So, the price God exacted for "sin" was death. Since you chose examples for what you believe is sin, I offered the questions to demonstrate that you and God don't necessarily agree. God did not kill a man who got drunk, fornicated with his daughters twice, which is incest, or, in your version (spin) allowed Lot's daughters to commit rape (twice). Let me see. He killed "sinners" yet Lot and his daughters lived. So, according to your God, drunkenness, rape, fornication, incest and deceit are approved by God. They must be because God did not kill Lot or his daughters. And if you consider those "sins" then you are in rebellion against your God. So where do you get your authority to speak and for which God are you speaking? |
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Date: 6/13/2000 3:35:00 PM
To the person who commented:"Nice spin, Norman. God killed people in this story who "sinned." One of which was a person He had saved, Lot's wife. So, the price God exacted for "sin" was death. Since you chose examples for what you believe is sin, I offered the questions to demonstrate that you and God don't necessarily agree. God did not kill a man who got drunk, fornicated with his daughters twice, which is incest, or, in your version (spin) allowed Lot's daughters to commit rape (twice). Let me see. He killed "sinners" yet Lot and his daughters lived. So, according to your God, drunkenness, rape, fornication, incest and deceit are approved by God. They must be because God did not kill Lot or his daughters. And if you consider those "sins" then you are in rebellion against your God. So where do you get your authority to speak and for which God are you speaking?" You haven't demonstrated to me that God and I don't agree instead you have twisted what I wrote. God didn't kill Lot's wife she did it to herself. When the Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of their wickedness Lot's wife did not take heed to the Lord's instructions and if you read the story then you should know that. I'll recap it for you so you will have the facts according to His written word:"And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it. And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law. And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city. And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city. And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed. And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my LORD: Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die: Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live. And he said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken. Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do anything till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar. The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar. Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground. But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt." Genesis 19:12-26. You truly err not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. If you study the word of God for yourself in all earnest then your eyes would be opened. You ask the question:"So where do you get your authority to speak and for which God are you speaking?" I'll ask you where do you get the authority to judge me and twist my words around and what is your point because I don't see your point unless you are hearing what you want to hear. I have given you the answers to your questions with scriptural content and all you have to do is open your Bible if you have one and read the story for yourself. Which God am I speaking of? There is only one God who knows the end from the beginning and there is no other like Him in the heavens above or the earth below. Ask Jesus to come into your life and He will open your eyes to His precious truths. Don't allow Satan to blind you to that which is plainly revealed in Holy Scriptures. Sincerely--Norman |
| Date: 6/13/2000 4:42:00 PM Norman, for brevity's sake, if you must quote this response, it is considered good form to write thusly, "To the person who wrote..." Indicating to the reader that you are quoting someone else. It is not necessary, given that the entire quotation is available, to repeat the entire passage. That is very tiring to the reader. You have seriously rewritten the story of S & G. But that is not the point. You were asked questions that you have obfuscated by misquoting the story of S & G. The point is that you have "defined" sin to all these readers. Since you do not agree with your God, by what authority are you speaking and which God are you following? It is not the one that rendered his judgment in the story of Lot. Your God approves of deceit (which you call a sin), incest, fornication, drunkenness, and rape. He did not kill Lot or his "VIRGIN" daughters. Those are facts according to your bible. That's not "my" judgment. If those are not sins, then where did you get the authority to judge everybody else? That is a question for YOU, Norman. I am not judging you or anybody else, just asking YOU questions about YOUR authority to SPEAK for God, particularly since what you say is in disagreement with Him. |
| Date: 6/13/2000 7:42:00 PM To the person who commented:"Norman, for brevity's sake, if you must quote this response, it is considered good form to write thusly, "To the person who wrote..." Indicating to the reader that you are quoting someone else. It is not necessary, given that the entire quotation is available, to repeat the entire passage. That is very tiring to the reader." I don't need you to give me any lectures on English grammer or how I should respond to a message ok? If you don't like what I have to say then don't make false assumptions about me because you don't know me. Don't misquote things I say or put words in my mouth because you really don't know what you are talking about. For your next comment and I quote:"You have seriously rewritten the story of S & G. But that is not the point. You were asked questions that you have obfuscated by misquoting the story of S & G. The point is that you have "defined" sin to all these readers. Since you do not agree with your God, by what authority are you speaking and which God are you following? It is not the one that rendered his judgment in the story of Lot. Your God approves of deceit (which you call a sin), incest, fornication, drunkenness, and rape. He did not kill Lot or his "VIRGIN" daughters. Those are facts according to your bible. That's not "my" judgment. If those are not sins, then where did you get the authority to judge everybody else? That is a question for YOU, Norman. I am not judging you or anybody else, just asking YOU questions about YOUR authority to SPEAK for God, particularly since what you say is in disagreement with Him." Once again I reiterate this to you:"You truly err not knowing the Scripturs nor the power of God." Where do you get this crazy notion I'm in disagreement with God? Have you ever sat down and studied the word of God for yourself? You say my God approves of deceit? You are really in error and don't even realize it. Where do you get these mad notions from? If you are not judging me then how can you say I'm in disagreement with God when I have given my answers which comes directly from the written word of God? It seems to me you don't believe in God nor His written word and that is your business and you will have to deal with that on your own. I hope you take this advice never make false assumptions about people you don't know. If you are going to present an argument or make a point on something I suggest you get all of your facts together first otherwise your argument is going to look very weak and foolish because you haven't really made a valid point here and you don't realize it yet. Your insistance that I disagree with God is totally unfounded. I've answered your questions and made my point with scriptural content but you refuse to see that. I implicitly believe in the word of God and His testimony and I am not ashamed to tell you nor anyone else. What makes you think I'm judging everybody else? I'm going to make this clear to you right now I am a Christian who desires to grow with Christ daily and I make no apologies about what I say regarding the written word of God. I pray you will ask Jesus to come into your life so you can learn of His precious truths. Trust me when I tell you there is a BIG difference of having Jesus in your life as opposed to not having Him in your life and I pray you will seek Him out and taste and see that He is good for He really is good. Taste and see that the Lord is good for yourself. If you desire the word of God ask Jesus to come into your life and He will open your eyes to His precious truths and there is nothing and I do mean nothing like the love of God. Peace--Norman |
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Date: 6/13/2000 7:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 8663
If I may- I think I would like to give another view point as to the story of Lot. I think what is being shown here is a "type" or a forshadowing of sorts; the contrast of pre- Mosaic Law and pre-ResurrectedGrace. We have God plainly stating that the wages of sin is death(a forshadowing of the Mosaic Law)and as such the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah are condemned.God's Grace allowed Lot's righteiousness to be credited to him so that he and his daughter's could survive in spite of their sinful behavior(this simply being a case of who Lot is not what he does in the light of God's Grace, Lot and his family were chosen). We also see the same thing happen in the Garden of Eden where pre-law(Mosaic Law) God commanded not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (again the wages of sin being death)Adam ate and immediately died (spiritually)But God in His Grace sacrificed an animal (again forshadowing the Law which inturn forshadowed the eventual sacrifice Christ)and man was covered with the skin of the sacrificial animal(representing attonement) in order be protected from the elements. So- in short the Bible itself is scripture based on prophesy and forshadowing and "types" if you will, all pointing to the ultimate climax- the coming of the Messiah, His crucifixion, His resurrection. The end results- a covenant of Grace and Mercy in which man is free to partake in, should he accept God's gift. Just my take on things...... God Bless.....Grace |
| Date: 6/13/2000 9:28:00 PM Okay, Norman, I'll make it easy for you. Did Lot sin? Yes or no will do. Hi, Grace, thanks for the information, but I'm looking for a straight answer from Norman. He has trouble with straight answers. |
| Date: 6/14/2000 12:12:00 AM To the person who commented:"Okay, Norman, I'll make it easy for you. Did Lot sin? Yes or no will do. Hi, Grace, thanks for the information, but I'm looking for a straight answer from Norman. He has trouble with straight answers." There you go again. You just don't get it do you? I see what you are trying to do but I am not going to fall for it ok? All of us have sinned and have come short of the glory of God. ALL OF US. Lot sinned like the rest of us but he REPENTED OF HIS SINS AND KEPT THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD and that is why his life was saved. Do you understand? THOSE WHO REPENT OF THEIR SINS AND KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD ARE THE ONES WHO WILL BE SAVED. Do you have a problem with that? Indulge me if you will. Lets say if I want to study karate and you are my instructor? You demonstrate to me on the proper technique of breaking several boards with my fists? You plainly demonstrate the proper technique to me and you plainly state what not to do to avoid injury? I proceed to do that which you plainly told me not to do resulting in a broken hand. Whose fault is that yours or mine? It's my fault because I didn't listen to your plainly expressed instructions. I heard what I wanted to hear instead of taking heed to your guidance. I understand your point on a simple yes and no answer for at least we are getting somewhere. Try to understand although Lot sinned he repented and did that which was right in God's eyes and that is what saved him. He didn't question nor doubt God. Lot's wife died because she doubted God by looking back when HE plainly said to not look back when they fled the city of Sodom. If you are my karate instructor and I don't advance in belts whose fault is that? If I don't learn by following your guidance as my instructor and keep getting injured and don't clean up my act whose fault is that? This is what I'm trying to tell you. We all have sinned and make mistakes but it is what we as individuals do to correct these errors that will determine the outcome. It's not the question that Lot sinned but it's what he did that determined the outcome. Can we agree on these analogies? Does that make sense to you? Peace--Norman |
| Date: 6/14/2000 9:18:00 AM No, Norman, the bible does not make "sense" to me. Nor do your "interpretations" make sense unless God is arbitrary and capricious. That would contradict other references to God's sameness throughout eternity. God did not punish the individuals in this story equally. Unless you are prepared to say that rape, fornication, drunkenness, incest, and deceit are not sins, then I have to say that your god has demonstrated that he uses different rules for different people. But then that contradicts the idea that God is no respecter of persons. So, no Norman, your bible does not make sense because it continually contradicts itself (without the aid of "divine" interpretation - spin). |
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Date: 6/14/2000 12:04:00 PM
From Authorid: 8663
Anonymous author (although I think I know who you are)Hello again. You have brought up some very valid points. While God's sovereignty leaves us wondering 'why' at times, in the case of Lot- I will maintain that it is not what a person DOES that defines righteousness with God, rather it is WHO A person is (Identity-wise).In other words Lot was spared because it was Lot's NATURE to believe God not because of the act of belief itself. Just like for the believer today- belief(faith) in God is a by-product of who we are NOT what we do. I have learned some very important lessons from Norman, not so much because of what he says, but in the process of corresponding with him I have learned that I will never be able to change his attitude toward scripture, nor will I be able to convince him to approach others with more finesse-That leaves me with one of the most important lessons- ACCEPTANCE. Believe me, I have gone around and around with Norman and I must admit I somehow admire his bull-headedness towards his own convictions. God has him where He wants him and that is on a path that somehow interprets scriture on a more performance base ideaology. And while I cannot argue with such convictions, I am left to let The Spirit of God bring about any change in him and not me. Also- it gives me great appreciation for the different levels that we are all on as human beings. I can truly thank God ,after years and years of legalism, That His Spirit is continually leading me to the Truth of who He is and my identity in Him, as apposed to continually thinking of what I must do in order to earn God's favor. I hope you get my drift, and I urge you to forge onward in your civil debate.......Grace |
| Date: 6/14/2000 2:14:00 PM The Bible didn't make sense to me many years ago nor did someone's interpretations who was trying to help me to understand until I sat down one day, opened the Bible, and took a closer look and then did I begin to understand. What I didn't understand I believed and asked Jesus to open my eyes and He did because I really wanted to know His word for myself. The Lord does not contradict Himself neither does His written word. The Lord is no respecter of persons because if He were many of us would be in big trouble big time. When you say:"God did not punish the individuals in this story equally." You are missing the point. It is true that God did not punish the individuals equally but I think you are failing to look at the big picture. If you are referring to Lot's daughters having sex with their father I can't fault Lot for that which should be obvious to you. Lot's daughters set him up and they planned this scheme well. It is not new that people will set you up any way they can in order to achieve a particular goal and I don't think even you can argue that one. In the case of Lot's daughters they gave him wine to drink until he went to sleep and couldn't wake up then they performed their acts of incest. In other words it was a very, very dirty trick they pulled. If they did that to their own father its no telling what they would do to somebody else. It is all about one's attitude when understanding the word of God. If I open the Bible reading it with preconceived notions of course it wouldn't make sense to me either and I would fail each and every time to grasp those precious truths. Getting back to the analogy of you being my karate instructor if I hear what I want to hear and not follow your guidance I will fail each and every time until I change my attitude. Peace--Norman |
| Date: 6/14/2000 10:25:00 PM Hi, Grace. *hug* I know that I am not going to change Norman's mind. I only respond to these kinds of stories to demonstrate that the "truth" is largely made up of "opinion." Norman's "opinion" is no more valid than the bartender's. But he does have the right to express it and I respect that right, whether I agree or disagree. And I mean nothing that I say as an attack on Norman as a person. He seems like a nice guy, little strident in his rhetoric, but I'd probably enjoy debating with him in person for a couple of hours. My "opinion" is that you and 'Chelle have far more wisdom and understanding of God's word than many who frequent this topic (religion). BTW, Grace, you are so astute. My grandfather was a Baptist preacher about 80 years ago. *hug* Just to save Norman the trouble of writing "To the person...", you may call me 1. |
| Date: 6/14/2000 10:40:00 PM Hi, Norman. Bill Clinton attempted to obfuscate the definition of the word "is." So it is with your interpretation of the bible. Just because you choose to believe that the words of the story of Lot don't mean what they say, does not mean that you are correct. Just because the story does not fit into your preconceived notions of "sin" and God's word does not change the words of the story. Nor does it change the contradictions that I have pointed out. One does not need "divine" interpretation to see the inconsistencies. One only needs an open mind and a broader view. You suggest that you now see the truth because of your "broad" view. I suggest that you should change bifocals because you have tunnel vision. You can only "see" what you already believe. Norman, just because YOU choose to believe it, does not make it true. SEE response to Grace. You may call me 1. |
| Date: 6/15/2000 2:48:00 AM 1, do me a favor quit trying to twist what I say to fit your arguments ok? What real proof do you have the Bible is inconsistant? Because you say so? I don't need to change bifocals because I see things for what they really are. You can't accept the fact that I said "study the word of the Lord for yourself." Are you afraid the truth will set you free? As far as the story of Lot goes I didn't make it up but of course I think you've figured that out already at least I hope you have. You haven't pointed out any contradictions to me because what happened is plainly written in Holy Scriptures. The bottom line is you are hearing what you want to hear and if it doesn't fit your mold then its garbage but that is not how it works. I used to hear what I wanted to hear at one time but I learned. No matter what you say or call me it won't matter for you can't rationalize or explain away the word of God for His word is life indeed and someday you along with many others will find that out. As Jesus plainly states:" Heaven and Earth shall pass away but my words shall never pass." Believe me when I tell you there is a BIG difference of having Jesus in your life as opposed to not having Him in your life and I pray you will ask Jesus to come into your life. You are my fellow human being and I desire that you be saved. By the way you said your grandfather was a Baptist minister 80 years ago correct? What does that have to do with you and your salvation through Jesus Christ? My great uncle on my mother's side practiced law until he died at the age of 105 in 1985 but that has nothing to do with me working out my salvation through Jesus Christ. Both are accomplished individuals in their own right but neither one can work out your salvation through the Lord. 1, lets set aside our argument for a second. Try even if you don't want to try to imagine if the Lord sent an angel to you and showed you things? What would you do? What if that angel showed you a scenario of the great and terrible day of the Lord? What would you say? What if you were permitted to see an angel record everything you say and do? I'll put it another way what if the veil were to be swept back for you and the Lord permitted you to see things most people don't see what would you think then? Try and give it just a little thought ok? Peace--Norman |
| Date: 6/15/2000 9:27:00 AM Hi, Norman. The reference to my grandfather was a "private" message to Grace. It is totally unrelated to your story. 1 |
| Date: 6/15/2000 9:32:00 AM Hi, Norman. My "proof" is in the story of Lot. There are many others, but the story of Lot is a very clear example. You are the one that has to change the story to fit your "interpretation" of God's word. Not me. 1 |
Date: 6/15/2000 9:45:00 AM
Hi, Norman. In my years of study, I have "seen" many things. I would never impose my visions on others. God speaks to us all in His own way. When you speak for God ("Thus sayeth the Lord..." , you are demonstrating your own lack of wisdom. You do not have the authority to speak for God. Neither do I or anybody else on this planet, past or present. 1 |
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Date: 6/15/2000 9:58:00 AM
Hi..We can all read in the N.T. that the O.T.was given to us as a tutor(schoolmaster)to bring us to Christ(Galatians 34-25)Now..In the O.T. God gives us much information regarding who He really is..His nature,His characteristics,,His authority to do as He sees fit,His holiness,His power,His mercies,His judgments,His demand for obedience,His displeasure and wrath for sins and wickness..God hasn't changed His nature and characteristics in the N.T..Gods is still the same God..The Old Law was changed,not God Himself..He is still just as demanding when it comes to obedience..After all..Who are we to attempt to follow after our own righteousness?..It isn't in man to lead himself..That is why God has given us instructions in these things..How could we possibly know how to please God,unless He revealed His righteousness unto us?..Jesus Himself didn't attempt to do those things to please Himself,but He chose to do those things which pleased the Father..He submitted Himself to do God's pleasure even unto death..We also can be the sons and daughters of God by submitting ourselves to do God's will.not our own..We are to be in total submission unto God's will..(Not my will,but thy will be done)God expects us to have the same attitude which Christ had..He expects us to attempt to be sinless..(Of course Christ was the only perfect person,but we are to try to be as much like Christ as possible and with Gods help,we can do much..As we grow in righteousness and adding to our virtues as we go,we are doing what God expects of us..(This requires obedience to God)..Now..In the O.T. God chose certain people to show us who He is..since God knows each and everyone of us more than we know ourselves..When He chose to use Lot's wife as an example to us as to what happens to those who disobeys His commandments..even the slightest* commandment..It is possible that God knew that Lot's wife secretly desired to participte in the sins of the cities He destroyed..It is possibly that is why she looked back..God is merciful to all,but God's mercy is magnified to those who seek to do His will..Take the examples of Pharoah and David..Pharoah was destroyed..He was constantly rebelling against God..David was said to be a man after God's own heart,but he actually had a man killed so that he could have his wife..The difference is..David repented and he hurt deeply when he realized his sin against God..Even though God must punish sin and required Davids first child,God's magnified mercy was extended to David..David's sin was done out of weakness,not downright rebellion as Pharoah's was..God knew that Pharoah wasn't going to change and therefore used him to show His greatness to us..Many things in the O.T.was done for our benefit..(Those who were afar off)..Now,the O.T. carries over into the N.T..God's characteristics are still the same and He still expects the same obedience..The difference here is that He gave us His words and warnings through the Bible..we hear His voice through the Bible..He doesn't do immediate punishment for sins committed,but He gives plenty of warnings..In the last days(The last days are considered to be anytime after Christ died because the total plan of salvation has been revealed once and for all)God is still talking to each individual and will hold each one responsible for their own sins..He knows what we are capable of learning..He knows if we are willfully ignorant of His Word,which He says there is no excuse for..He knows if we are choosing to disbelieve His warnings as was done in the days of Noah..Gods judgment will be final on judgment day..and He does warn that on that day many* will say "Lord haven't we done many works in thy name..etc..And He will say to them "Depart from me into everlasting fire"..(Understand why He will do this by studying God's Word)In Matthew 7:13..Christ says..Wide is the gate and broad is the way to destruction and many* will go in..V14..Narrow is the way and few there be that find it..The ones who do not study to see what God expects of them will be totally disappointed on that day..People will not get into heaven on their own opinions and their own beliefs..They can only enter by submitting themselves totally to Gods ways.. Sincerely Oxy PS..Sorry for taking so much space |
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Date: 6/15/2000 9:59:00 AM
From Authorid: 582
God does not cast judgments on us EVER. That is not something he does, he observes and experiences all things from us and in doing that he sees all that he is and all that he is not. It's blasphemy to believe that God loves one("the saved" over the other ("the unsaved". You have imagined a God who acts just like you. Therefore, you speak of God's "promise" to his "Chosen People," and of covenants between God and those God lives, in a special way. You cannot stand the thought of a God who loves no ONE in a way which is MORE special than any other, and so you create fictions (parts of the bible)about a God who only loves certain people for certain reasons. And you call these fictions religions. I call them blasphemies. For any thought that God loves one more than another is false and any ritual which asks you to make the same statement is not a sacrament, but a sacrilege. You have corrupted the Word of God in order to justify your fears and rationalize our insane treatment of each other. You will make God say whatever you need God to say in order to continue limiting each other, hurting each other, and killing each other in His name. You have invoked His name, and waved His flag as proof that He loves one people more than another. Yet he tells us this: My love is unlimited and unconditional! Man has created a culture based on EXCLUSION. In God's love, everyone is INCLUDED. Into God's kingdom everyone is invited. And this truth is what you call a blasphemy. And I suppose you MUST. Because if it is true, then everything you have created in your life is false. Words to ponder my dear Norman, but fear not, I'm not placing blame, I'm marely saying I no longer chose to create and live in a world where I believe God to be as you/religion would have me believe him to be. It doesn't allow me to grow and be closer to God. Blessed be |
| Date: 6/15/2000 10:16:00 AM Hi, Norman. I am the anonymous author who posted the fourth message beginning, "The fallacy preached by..." You have demonstrated my point for me (one more time). Thank you. Hi,'Chelle, you are so cool, go, girl, go!!! *smile* 1 |
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Date: 6/15/2000 10:18:00 AM
From Authorid: 582
It's so cool to see you here at the same time! HELLO MY FRIEND!!! |
| Date: 6/15/2000 10:27:00 AM God says..Go and teach His word to all..God wants people to tell others of Him..If one is teaching exactly what God says..then God is pleased..God's word is used to reprove and rebuke..for correction and instruction in righteousness,etc..No one has the right to teach any other thing than what God has already said and they are to be able to show proof for all things they teach as God's word..To go beyond what God has said is adding to or taking away from God's word..No one is to teach an opinion,etc..as truth..Oxy again |
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Date: 6/15/2000 10:29:00 AM
From Authorid: 582
That fourth comment of yours my friend says it all. I thought that was your writing. I absolutely agree of course. Glad to have the enlightened close by. It makes my heart sing and fill with LOVE. You go friend! |
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Date: 6/15/2000 10:31:00 AM
From Authorid: 582
What makes you think that man hasn't corrupted the sacred writings of God with what will serve mans purpose oxy? |
| Date: 6/15/2000 10:47:00 AM Hi, Oxy. I appreciate your comment, opinions and beliefs. You have chosen an "interpretation" of the bible that suits your needs. The "broad" view of all those words (in the bible) is that no one has the authority to speak for God, and no one has the right to judge (spiritually) anybody else. For ANYTHING. God has the sole authority to "judge" people. He never surrendered that to you, Norman, or anyone else on this planet. So, anyone who states that someone is a "sinner," or is in err (spiritually) or is going to hell, or heaven, or whatever, is placing themself squarely in God's seat. I would move if I were you. But, I do not speak for God, I am just stating my opinion. 1 |
| Date: 6/15/2000 10:55:00 AM HI, 'Chelle!!! Did you get my message last night? Boy, this is almost like AOL Instant Messenger. *smile* Your Friend / 1 |
| Date: 6/15/2000 10:56:00 AM Author 582..God is able to keep His words of righteousness to us totally intact..This would be considered a simple matter when it comes to Gods abilities..No creation of God's can even come close to His abilities..A loving creator wants His creation to know about Him..I have the greatest confidence in that the Bible is without flaw when it comes to God plan of salvation..The way I see it from Gods creation alone..The fingernail on His smallest finger would have more power and strenghts in it than all the power and strengths in the universe..And still this is a meager comparison,for lack of better words..That's how I know that God has given us all a way to Him and has kept it intact .. Sincerely Oxy |
| Date: 6/15/2000 11:11:00 AM Hi 1...Are you inferring that no one is permitted to teach God's words to anyone else?..I,..If that is the case then I pity those poor preachers who go far and wide to teach others what God has said..They use God's Words and righteousness as their guideline..Sincerely Oxy..PS..If I give you Book,Chapter and Verse for all I teach as truth,would you still say it is my opinion? |
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Date: 6/15/2000 11:40:00 AM
From Authorid: 582
Let me explain something to you Oxy, that I once explained to Norman. I BELIEVE that God gave us free will so that we can go through our lives in anyway we chose, so that we can experience all life has to offer and all that life is, which is a gift to us by him, to help us to find out "who we are", but more importantly, "who we want to be". That's why we don't have just " life", we have as many as it takes to get it right for each individual. That depends entirely on us. God knows each soul and he knows how perfect we are as souls. He gave us life here on earth so that we can experience all that he is and all that he is not for him and in turn for us. We don't have to prove anything to God. He knows us better than we know ourselves! He knows what's deep inside of us, each and everyone. He knows how we all struggle. He knows how our hearts ache. He knows our joys and sorrows, so don't go thinking otherwise. God knows how awesome he is and he isn't doing all of this so that he can only sit up there and be worshipped and glorified, he knows how we feel about him. He created each and every soul and has a relationship with all of us, we're a part of him. He's doing all this for us too. That’s what free will is all about. If we all stopped to take the time to think solely of ourselves and what would make us better spiritually (not religiously) I think our time here on Earth would be better spent. My greatest wish is for all of the religions of this world to drop all pretenses of being the correct religion and just concentrate on your own individual spiritualism, climbing that ladder of consciousness because each step climbed is one step closer to becoming god-like. Can you imagine a world where we all got along and no matter what it was we strive to do we were successful at, like "heaven on earth". That's his intention here, to someday have us achieve that level of world consciousness so that we will have all of our needs met, each and everyone of us. Peace and harmony with each other. IMHO |
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Date: 6/15/2000 11:43:00 AM
From Authorid: 582
You know what I've realized through all of these comments is that I'm not trying to push my beliefs off on you if you are not open enough to accept them. I simply enjoy being in contact with those who understand and can relate to my level of consciousness. So please don't take my comments out of context. I know where you and Norman and many others stand as well you now know where I stand and I truly respect that. I'm just passionate about my spirituality and love speaking my mind. Thanks for that! Blessed be |
Date: 6/15/2000 12:12:00 PM
Chelle..You have made your point..That is your belief..OK..But Chelle..Have you ever studied God's Word if for nothing else than to give it a benefit of a doubt?I am not saying "study" in the sense of having someone else tell you what the Bible says,nor am I saying simply to read God's word..I am saying to open the Bible up and spend some serious time in studying it for yourself..Do the rundowns on the references..If you haven't I would suggest that you give it a try..It won't hurt Right!! Nothing lost Right!! Sincerely Oxy  |
| Date: 6/15/2000 12:33:00 PM Hi, Oxy. Thanks to 'Chelle for expressing my opinions for me. And I emphasize that I do not believe anyone has the right to "push their beliefs" onto anyone else. No matter how "righteous" they are. Thanks, 'Chelle. 1 |
| Date: 6/15/2000 1:48:00 PM Hi, Oxy. Using the bible as the "only" source of God's words is similar to preparing a gourmet meal using hamburger helper. 1 |
| Date: 6/15/2000 2:56:00 PM Hi 1..I totally disagree with your last comment..The way I see it..Would I go to a dentist if my leg hurt?..Of course not..I would go straight to the necessary source for help..God speaks to us in His word and gives us all we need to know when it comes to the plan of salvation..I can see..I can read..I can understand what God is saying,so why would I need another source?God is the one who I will rely on in the end..no man made creed or manual..I can be sure of what God is saying if I read it for myself..I do not listen to anyone when it comes to God's word unless they teach what God has already said..Now..Don't get me wrong..I will consider all that someone says,but the final answer is found in God's word..I am a Bible only person..God has already said that all scriptures are given for reproof,for rebuke,for correction,for instruction in righteousness..He also said that His word is complete and that no man is to add to or take away from His word..How plain it is and how simple it is to understand that..His word to us is final..If you need scriptures ask and I will post them..Sincerely Oxy |
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Date: 6/15/2000 5:17:00 PM
Hi, Oxy. Please, please do not post scripture. I would like to know where you come by the authority to speak for God. ("God's final word..." Are you teaching a religious philosophy or are you interpreting the bible as an individual? By that I mean, do you follow a religious doctrine? If so, where did it come from? Thanks, 1 |
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Date: 6/15/2000 5:20:00 PM
From Authorid: 8663
Oxy-I thought that since you have been posting on this story lately, I would invite you back to 'Condemned' where you will see I have answered the specific questions you asked me regardibng doctrine. I no you have been busy but I htought you might like yo reply. Norman-I apologize for taking space on your board I am trying to contact Oxy in regards to another issue. So Sorry........Grace |
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Date: 6/15/2000 5:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 8663
1, 1- By the way-Hey, Hey! How are you doin'? Looks like your persuit of intelectual debate has steered you back to the viper's den, ha, ha. I see all is well so far, or as well as can be expected anyway, wouldn't you say? My best to you and I wish you luck in not steering into any brick walls. Blessings to you.......Grace |
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Date: 6/15/2000 5:42:00 PM
1, why do you keep insisting I am changing the story of Lot when everything I've said is right there in Scriptures? I've even pointed it out to you. I have no reason to disbelieve what is written there. Why do you keep saying I have no authority to speak for God when Jesus plainly states:"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." Mark 16:15. So that gives me the authority to say "Thus says the Lord". Jesus instructed us to bear witness according to His written word and do those things that are written therein. For you to say:"Hi, Norman. In my years of study, I have "seen" many things. I would never impose my visions on others. God speaks to us all in His own way. When you speak for God ("Thus sayeth the Lord...", you are demonstrating your own lack of wisdom. You do not have the authority to speak for God. Neither do I or anybody else on this planet, past or present." 1, it is lack of wisdom on your part not mine because you are hearing what you want to hear. Did you know Jesus gives us power to cast out demons in His name or did you miss that in your years of study too? You have demonstrated to me that you err not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. You have also demonstrated to me your lack of faith in His written word. If eveyone who believes in Christ past and present were to believe that they didn't have authority to speak for God then Jesus would have been crucified for nothing. I guess the prophets didn't have authority to speak for God either right? Why do you think Jesus said:"Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Matt.5:14-16. Does that tell you anything? The bottom line is are you ashamed or afraid to bear witness for the testimony of Christ? If you are ashamed to bear witness for the testimony of Christ then just as sure as my name is Norman if you deny Christ before man He most certainly will deny you before His Father and the angels in Heaven. I hope you've learned that in your years of studying. Think it over. Peace--Norman |
| Date: 6/15/2000 5:48:00 PM Hi, Grace. *hug* Unfortunately, I am getting tired of the circular argument, but I will hang in their for a couple of more posts (maybe). Maybe I'll come over and "harass" you. *grin* Take care. *hug* 1 |
| Date: 6/15/2000 5:55:00 PM Hi, Norman. Please tell us, in your wisdom, who is going to be in hell? Be specific by race, religion, nationality or other identifying factors. Since you have God's truth, that should not be too difficult for you. Thanks, 1 |
| Date: 6/15/2000 6:03:00 PM Hi, Norman. Actually, I was baptised by the Baptists about five times between the ages of six and twelve (we moved a lot). And according to the branch of the Baptists we belonged to, once I was baptised, I can do ANYTHING I want to. And I'm guaranteed a seat right next to God. But obviously you disagree. So, where do you get your authority? The Baptists claim theirs comes from John the Baptist, but I don't really know. 1 |
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Date: 6/15/2000 6:19:00 PM
1, you comment:"AM Hi, Norman. I am the anonymous author who posted the fourth message beginning, "The fallacy preached by..." You have demonstrated my point for me (one more time). Thank you. Hi,'Chelle, you are so cool, go, girl, go!!! *smile* 1." Like I said you err not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. If you truly studied the word of God like you claim then you would know Jesus said:"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." Matt.7:15. Regarding the fallacy taught by many preachers today. OOPS!! Did you see that part in your years of studying too? I'm sorry stupid ole me I forgot you told me you've been studying for many years. What point did you say I proved to you? Later--Norman |
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Date: 6/15/2000 6:32:00 PM
Hi, Norman. Since you deny the facts as stated in the story of Lot, I presume you also deny the Inquisitions. But that's right, you aren't a Catholic and Catholics aren't "real" Christians like you and others on this board. The Catholics trace their authority to Peter. Exactly where do you get your authority? Thanks, 1 |
| Date: 6/15/2000 6:39:00 PM Hi, Norman. You have proven many points. Did you forget the one about not judging other people? Or do you just ignore that one? You have also proved that you need an interpreter to translate the words of God for you. Or at least some of them. In the story of Lot, you added your opinion about God's motives and the souls of the participants. Since none of that is in the bible, you proved that you just make things up as you go along to make God's words fit your doctrine (whatever it is). So, yes, Norman, you have proven what I stated at the outset. "Religion" is created by man (The Religion of Norman) and is corrupt. It is not God's word (at least in the context you present it). Thank you for proving my points for me. 1 |
| Date: 6/15/2000 6:55:00 PM Hi 1..I would like to ask you the same question as I ask another in this same room..Whom do you think,if anyone,has the right to teach God's Word?..God didn't simply give us His Word to let it lay dormant and collect dust..How do you think God's Word is suppose to be taught and by whom?Now,I get my authority from studying God's Word..God tells me to teach His word to all who will listen..Now,I won't post scripture,as you ask me not to..But..What I teach is in God's Word..Now If you would like to show me where you think I am wrong according to God's Word..I would be more than happy to correct a mistake..Studying,knowing and teaching God's Word is a privilege God gave all of us.. Sincerely Oxy |
| Date: 6/15/2000 6:58:00 PM Hi, Norman. Your quote: "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." Matt.7:15. Sounds like Christian Religionists/Dogmatists to me. But that's just my opinion. 1 |
| Date: 6/15/2000 7:11:00 PM Hi, Oxy. You teach by example, by the way you live your life and treat others. 1 |
| Date: 6/15/2000 7:20:00 PM Hi, Oxy. I have many Christian friends who do not choose to insult me, consign me to hell, or otherwise denigrate me or my life. If that is the kind of Christian that you are, then you and I are in agreement. If you are a Christian like Norman, whose apparent attitude is that he is the sole possessor of God's truth, then you and I disagree. But, I do not condemn you for whatever you choose to believe. I just don't agree that the bible is the "only" source of God's words. And I have no desire to convert you to something else. If your spirit is at peace as a Christian, that is a good thing. But if 'Chelle's spirit is at peace in her beliefs, that is also from God and is a good thing. I don't know how else to say it. Read 'Chelle's responses. Generally, she and I agree and I cannot improve on her wisdom. 1 |
| Date: 6/15/2000 9:51:00 PM 1, I don't claim nor ever have I claimed to be the sole possessor of God's truth and that is not my attitude. I implicitly believe in the word of God and have asked Jesus to come into my life and He is opening my eyes to His precious truths. It's not about religion it's about eternal salvation for all of mankind which is a very, very serious matter and I make no apologies about what I say regarding the word of God and His precious truths for His words are truth and life. Someday I hope you humble yourself and truly ask Jesus to come into your life and He will open your eyes believe me if you will allow him into your life. I don't take whatever you call me personally because whatever you say or call me will not affect me one way or another. I pray you will humble yourself and ask Jesus to come into your life for I desire to see you saved like the rest of my fellow man and be found written in the Book Of Life and enter New Jerusalem and forever be with the Lord. Peace always--Norman |
| Date: 6/15/2000 10:01:00 PM By the way 1 will you please quit twisting my words around to fit your argument. You are beginning to look very foolish. Sincerely--Norman |
| Date: 6/15/2000 10:33:00 PM Hi, Norman. Let me see, you claim "self righteous" authority. The Religion of Norman is based on Norman's interpretation of the bible and is true because YOU say so. No, thanks, Norman, I don't care to worship at the altar of Norman. Thanks for proving my points (again). 1 |
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Date: 6/16/2000 3:53:00 AM
From Authorid: 582
I'm leaving this discussion because of obvious reason, but I want to thank My Friend once more. I hope to see you around akaJohn! BTW, several of MY questions went unanswered. I'll assume that you have no logic or if you will illogical answers. I'll leave you again with this comment and please take your time in reading it. It may change your life as you know it! FOR THE BETTER. Blessed be |
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Date: 6/16/2000 3:54:00 AM
From Authorid: 582
God does not cast judgments on us EVER. That is not something he does, he observes and experiences all things from us and in doing that he sees all that he is and all that he is not. It's blasphemy to believe that God loves one("the saved" over the other ("the unsaved". You have imagined a God who acts just like you. Therefore, you speak of God's "promise" to his "Chosen People," and of covenants between God and those God lives, in a special way. You cannot stand the thought of a God who loves no ONE in a way which is MORE special than any other, and so you create fictions (parts of the bible)about a God who only loves certain people for certain reasons. And you call these fictions religions. I call them blasphemies. For any thought that God loves one more than another is false and any ritual which asks you to make the same statement is not a sacrament, but a sacrilege. You have corrupted the Word of God in order to justify your fears and rationalize our insane treatment of each other. You will make God say whatever you need God to say in order to continue limiting each other, hurting each other, and killing each other in His name. You have invoked His name, and waved His flag as proof that He loves one people more than another. Yet he tells us this: My love is unlimited and unconditional! Man has created a culture based on EXCLUSION. In God's love, everyone is INCLUDED. Into God's kingdom everyone is invited. And this truth is what you call a blasphemy. And I suppose you MUST. Because if it is true, then everything you have created in your life is false. Words to ponder my dear Norman, but fear not, I'm not placing blame, I'm marely saying I no longer chose to create and live in a world where I believe God to be as you/religion would have me believe him to be. It doesn't allow me to grow and be closer to God. Blessed be |
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Date: 6/16/2000 7:04:00 AM
Chelle, let me make this clear to you right now and this is the last time I'm going to say this. IT'S NOT ABOUT RELIGION ITS ABOUT ETERNAL SALVATION FOR MANKIND. YOU, 1, AND A FEW OTHERS NEED TO STOP TWISTING WHAT I SAY AROUND. Why do you along with a few others and yes 1 you too keep insisting that I am imposing my beliefs on others? I never mentioned anything about anyone else's religion. I never said God loves only certain people. Chelle you say:"You have corrupted the Word of God in order to justify your fears and rationalize our insane treatment of each other. You will make God say whatever you need God to say in order to continue limiting each other, hurting each other, and killing each other in His name. You have invoked His name, and waved His flag as proof that He loves one people more than another. Yet he tells us this: My love is unlimited and unconditional! Man has created a culture based on EXCLUSION. In God's love, everyone is INCLUDED. Into God's kingdom everyone is invited. And this truth is what you call a blasphemy. And I suppose you MUST. Because if it is true, then everything you have created in your life is false. Words to ponder my dear Norman, but fear not, I'm not placing blame, I'm marely saying I no longer chose to create and live in a world where I believe God to be as you/religion would have me believe him to be. It doesn't allow me to grow and be closer to God. Blessed be." Chelle this is one of the main reasons why I say to folks "STUDY THE WORD OF GOD FOR YOURSELF." I have nothing to ponder about because I have backed up everything I've said with scriptural content so please don't try to put me on any guilt trips. Chelle let this sink in real well because I am not ever going to repeat this again and 1 that goes for you too:" I AM A CHRISTIAN WHO IMPLICITLY BELIEVES IN THE WORD OF GOD AND I MAKE NO APOLOGIES FOR THAT WHATSOEVER. I MAKE NO APOLOGIES WHEN I SAY "THUS SAYS THE LORD" ACCORDING TO HIS WRITTEN WORD. IF YOU WOULD ONLY OPEN THE BIBLE FOR YOURSELF AND STUDY HIS WORD FOR YOURSELF THEN YOU WOULD SEE. IT REALLY PAYS TO STUDY GOD'S WORD FOR YOURSELF CHELLE AND IF YOU DO THAT YOU WOULDN'T BE MAKING THESE UNFOUNDED ALLEGATIONS AND ACCUSATIONS AGAINST ME. This is why it says in 2 Timothy 2:15:"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." If you would apply that principle you wouldn't be saying such outlandish things to me right now. It is important that you understand this and weather you believe it or not don't allow Satan to blind you to that which is clearly written in Holy Scriptures. It is his purpose to blind people to the written word of God and His precious truths. It is his purpose to create confusion and dissention. Chelle it is very important you understand the reality of Satan and how he works to deceive mankind. Whether you want to hear it from me or not I suggest you let it sink in real well. I know what I'm talking about and this is why I've shared my encounters regarding the devil and his minions because he is real, malignant in nature and design, the father of lies whose sole purpose is to destroy all of mankind. Chelle this is why Jesus exhorts us to pray for one another and hold fast to His promises, encourage and fellowship with each other and comfort one another with the love of Christ. Chelle you have a lot to learn about a lot of things and please start by studying the word of God for yourself and ask Jesus to open your eyes. Take care--Norman |
| Date: 6/16/2000 7:54:00 AM Hi, Norman. This too, is my last post on this topic. Norman, all the words are posted for everyone to see. I am not going to debate you about "twisted" words. If I have done so, it is obvious to the reader. And I do give you credit in that you have not deleted any of my responses. That is a good thing. But my words are clear, and from my viewpoint, yours are not. And the simple message I have for you and all the other "preachers" on this board, YOU DO NOT HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO SPEAK FOR GOD. Take care, Norman, and may peace and harmony be forever yours. 1 |
| Date: 6/16/2000 8:01:00 AM Hi, 'Chelle, I began asking questions of preachers a long time ago. The responses I got all came down to: 1. Some things man is not supposed to know; or, 2. You and/or your questions are evil. I expect no more from those on this board. Take care, My Friend I will see you again. May peace and harmony be forever yours. 1 |
Date: 12/6/2000 8:15:00 AM
From Authorid: 1995
hmmf, I dunno. Good points. You will know the answers someday! booglyboo  |
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