|
|
|
|
|
 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |
|
Date: 11/17/2009 8:16:00 PM
From Authorid: 63026
Hi, I've been thinking about this alot and I got a long winded story is it free will, fate, gods plan? In October 2006 had a dream I would have a girl blond hair, come into my life.(gods message to me) In May 2007 had another dream the same girl with blond hair would come into my life.(gods meaasge to me) May 2007 quit my job(free will). June 2007 got a job at another daycare(freewill) Did not remember those dreams 'til a few weeks ago....posted on here on dates I had the dreams...so they are proof..... January 2008 walked into Infant 1, girl 8 months old, staring coldly into the world(fate) I started to play peek-a-boo with her(free will?) Girl gets older, by this time we have bonded...Mom and dad chose not to kick me out of her life, but accepted me into family(free will, gods plan?) Girl is now 2, Blond hair, same girl from the dreams I had... Was it gods plan, or fate? Cause I chose freely to quit my other job to work at the daycare to come to the one she was at...not knowing she was the girl from my dreams... Cause I had the first dream almost 5 months before I quit my other job, and I did not know the parents 'til way after she and I bonded....  |
Date: 11/17/2009 8:24:00 PM
From Authorid: 63026
Author: 63026 Category Discussion) Created10/12/2006 7:56:00 PM)And then I took a nap today and I was in my basement on the steps, and my dog and my dad were down there too. I was playing with a 11 month old girl, who was my daughter. She was just laughing and giggaling, and she had a pretty white dress, and a pink bow in her hair. When I woke up from this afternoon dream...something about her face, was burnt into my memory, and the way I heard the giggles and laughter, were so were real. http://www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm463586.html?t=Discussion ********************************** 63026 Category Discussion) Created5/28/2007 6:30:00 PM)I keep having a reoccuring dream where I have a daughter, and she always looks the same, she's like 15 months old, golden hair, and blue eyes, and she's always happy and laughing, and I'm always play wrestling with her. But there seems to be more to this feelings and dreams like I'm having, maybe it's just the uncondital love, or the happiness of this girl, that's going to bring me and her mother, and my family. It's like she's going to change everything in our lives, more than it usally brings people who are having a child. I should say I can feel her and see her, and she's just waiting to be born, and come into my life. http://www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm481370.html?t=Discussion |
|
Date: 11/17/2009 8:26:00 PM
From Authorid: 63026
the most ironic part of the story is I have a picture of her in a white dress, and pink bow..Her mom dressed her up for a daycare photo day...And like I said I forgot about those 2 dreams 'til about 2 months ago..and just stumbled the May 2007 dream today... |
Date: 11/17/2009 8:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 19613
My opinion is that there is no such thing as either fate or free will.  |
Date: 11/17/2009 11:23:00 PM
From Authorid: 54444
I believe we are born with free will, the ability to make choices. After we make choices we experience the outcome of them through the law of what you reap what you sow. It is really just the logicl chain of events that follows the choice and the process of that action running its course This action could, I suppose, be called fate. I don't think it has to be connected to religion, but I suppose it could be if a person was so inclined to believe that way.  |
|
Date: 11/18/2009 12:08:00 AM
From Authorid: 21266
Things that happen out of your control, is fate. Everything else you do in life is your own responsibility.  |
|
Date: 11/18/2009 2:30:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
"Things that happen out of your control, is fate." So someone elses freewill can be anothers fate?  |
|
Date: 11/18/2009 7:00:00 AM
From Authorid: 54444
that is correct because you have o control over what others decide, only how you react to their actions do you have free will to act. You also have free will to avoid reacting with negative people in the first place. |
|
Date: 11/18/2009 7:14:00 AM
From Authorid: 19613
Do you have control over your free will? |
|
Date: 11/18/2009 9:55:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
"You also have free will to avoid reacting with negative people in the first place." Not if they run your country. |
|
Date: 11/18/2009 10:06:00 AM
From Authorid: 63026
your funny rodtod...your talking hypothecitally of course I hope... Everyone even a slave has free will, though it may be broken...A slave has his free will to run away... Cubans have the free will to escape Cuba..... Unless you are owned by someone constantly watching over your shoulder, you have free choices to make... |
|
Date: 11/18/2009 10:07:00 AM
From Authorid: 63026
and when I say constantly I mean someone standing directly behind you dicating your every move. |
|
Date: 11/18/2009 10:30:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
Uh-huh. The starving chose to starve, yeah they need to stop being poor and go live in another country. Or better yet commit suicide, thats a choice too. |
|
Date: 11/18/2009 10:43:00 AM
From Authorid: 63026
lets say someone asks you to do something..you got free choice yes I will help you, or you can say buzz off i am busy.. am I right or wrong? |
|
Date: 11/18/2009 10:57:00 AM
From Authorid: 62118
Lets say your claim of everyone having free choice just got refuted, so instead of addressing it you just invent a different scenario that makes you look correct... |
|
Date: 11/18/2009 11:00:00 AM
From Authorid: 63026
well the last thing im saying is noone is controlling my actions or choices, so I have my freedom to do what I want. |
Date: 11/18/2009 4:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 62821
Hello Matt, thanks for posting. here is my take on the subject: I think we do have free will, yet at the same time, we are predisposed in our actions. We can make choices and act any way we so choose, but our actions will always lead us into a position that God had expected (I also believe in God). There is nothing that we can do to surprise God; He knows us. I believe the present is exactly as it should be. thanks.  |
Date: 11/18/2009 4:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 55967
Paraphrasing what I remember reading what the popular and esteemed Dr. Stephen Hawking once wrote, I think he said something like, people have asked me if I thought predestination existed in the universe. I say that it probably does, but it doesn't matter. What I get from that is that ever since the big bang, all the atoms were in such an order that things HAD to happen a certain way, all the molecules formed exactly according to force, number, location, etc., so all the stars formed that "should" have formed, all the solar systems, etc., and all the life. And I think the last part of his statement means that the predestination is so intricate that our physical brains cannot figure it out, so don't worry about it. That's on the macro level. He didn't say anything about the micro level, where I was predetermined to go to USM right here at this time, etc. I don't know about that, and that's all I can say on this subject.  |
|
Date: 11/18/2009 4:33:00 PM
From Authorid: 55967
This may be getting into Chaos Theory. I think. |
|
Date: 11/18/2009 4:36:00 PM
From Authorid: 55967
I often thought that everything could have been predestined right up to animals with their instincts, but people, the first life forms we know of that have self-consciousness, sentience, and so on, broke that cycle and have the first chance to have real choice. That would also go for other life forms on other planets doing the same thing. Just my personal theory. |
|
Date: 11/18/2009 6:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
Free Will: The decision one makes as to whether to believe in God or not, and then once that decision is made in the affirmative, the freedom to determine whether one is acting of their own "free will", against God's Will, both, or neither. Fate: Everything that happens; reality; God's Plan. Attempting to determine whether something occurs due to an individual's "free will" or the "fate" of the universe: Futile. God Bless.  |
|
Date: 11/18/2009 6:28:00 PM
From Authorid: 19613
Summary: Gypsyhawk’s account of Hawking is more or less correct (I had no idea he was a determinist!). Deb, as usual, is off in her own world talking another conceptual language, and Psyguy doesn't understand the difference between so-called 'surface freedoms' and 'deeper freedoms'. |
|
Date: 11/19/2009 9:08:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
Well, DP, how can any of us "hope" to make any "changes" with regard to deeply held disagreements with regard to conceptual matters? Keep on with the same 'ole, same 'ole? God Bless |
|
Date: 11/19/2009 10:38:00 AM
From Authorid: 19613
Get educated? |
|
Date: 11/19/2009 10:40:00 AM
From Authorid: 19613
Here's a thorough and unbiased survey: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freewill/#3.3 |
Date: 11/19/2009 3:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
By the comment "get educated", the link provided, and your responses on multiple posts here whereupon other commentators are lambasted for just not believing all those really "smart people" out there, DP, I am surmising that what you mean by the comment "get educated" is to read/study others' ideas to the point where you are able to regurgitate them. Certainly you didn't mean that by "getting educated" one would use their own philosophy (def. "personal attitude" to come up with original ideas not already postulated on within mainstream academia. Oh, no, a philosophy paper (not written by you; on "free will" is what you'll hang your hat on . . .God Bless. |
|
Date: 11/19/2009 5:15:00 PM
From Authorid: 19613
The article quoted offers several perspectives on the topic of free will, which is why I selected it (rather than, for example, a paper I have written myself on the topic, which advocates one of the range of positions which are taken in this discussion). There is a difference between understanding a perspective, and ‘regurgitating’ it. As far as I am aware, your ideas are certainly original. The problem is that they are simply not very good. (If I had to pick the most bizarre it would be the notion that one can have free will to believe or disbelieve one single proposition, i.e. that god exits) You could improve your conceptual understanding of matters if you took the time to read what philosophers and neuroscientists have to say on the topic of free will, action and agency, and causation. Or you could be intellectually arrogant and lazy and assume that there’s nothing to be had from studying the debates surrounding the topic. Apparently, you’ve chosen the latter approach. |
|
Date: 11/19/2009 5:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 19613
(And why not just say 'personal attitude' rather than 'philosophy' in this context? Ambiguity is not a mark of a good philosopher (def. lover of wisdom) |
|
Date: 11/19/2009 7:42:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
Sorry if you find defining terms "ambiguous" . . . surely you wouldn't attempt the same thing if you don't care for it in others. (Right . . .) As far as being "lazy", yeah, not thinking on your own wouldn't fall under that concept for you would it? And just think! All those crazy astronomers of yesteryear had this absolutely bizarre idea that the earth was a sphere! Get OUT! Who did they think they were? Arrogant fools . . . God Bless. |
Date: 11/19/2009 9:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 30093
Says the woman who constantly picks and chooses definitions from the dictionary to fit her present argument.  |
|
Date: 11/20/2009 8:34:00 AM
From Authorid: 19613
I think in a discussion about ‘philosophy’ in the context of the academic discipline, that it does introduce ambiguity to start speaking about ‘philosophy’ in the colloquial sense, of a ‘personal attitude’. Lazy for me is not taking the time to see what educated people have said for an against the issue. A doctor usually goes to a university or medical school to learn how to be a doctor. Maybe he comes up with his own original ideas about medicine or treatments, but most doctors, unless geniuses, are not self-taught. I’m not sure what your point about astronomy has to do with anything. The notion that the earth is a sphere has never been very controversial (nor entirely correct, as we now know) |
|
Date: 11/20/2009 11:42:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
Gee, Nanaki, if I, as the user of a word, can't enumerate amongst the accepted definitions of that word, which definition I am using, then who can? God? () My intertwining of the academia with the colloquial, DP, goes directly to the point I am making: Since there is not a universally accepted academia idea with regard to "free will", then why wouldn't someone's personal attitude on the subject be any less valid? Your answer to that seems to be that your personal attitude of my idea of "free will" is bizarre. I therefore brought up the idea of the shape of the earth as an idea which was considered bizarre in a previous point in time (never gave a particular point in time) for the purposes of illustrating that that which others consider bizarre ideas do, sometimes, become accepted ideas. And please, perhaps you should know that I do have a doctorate degree before you start lecturing me on how I must have come about getting same. God Bless. |
|
Date: 11/20/2009 12:48:00 PM
From Authorid: 30093
Merely pointing out that you berate DP for going to other sources for his arguments, but you're entitled to the encyclopedia or dictionary in your arguments. It's hypocritical, no matter how you spin it. Your facetiousness is, as always, unwarranted. Much like your God. |
|
Date: 11/20/2009 1:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 19613
Perhaps I should make a distinction between an idea which is bizarre, and one which is simply incoherent. To state that the President of the United states is actually an alien life form masquerading as a human would be a bizarre idea, but it would not be incoherent. To state that the colour of anger is purple, however, is both a bizarre and incoherent claim, (unless we’re talking in some kind of metaphor). The notion which you have expressed here and elsewhere, such that one could be free to believe one single proposition (that God exists) is the latter sort of claim: both bizarre and incoherent. All of the academics would agree on this, regardless of their other disagreements. In what subject is your doctorate, out of interest? |
|
Date: 11/20/2009 4:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
Aah. So it is unwarranted to treat others the way they treat you? Even if you don't mind the treatment? I don't care that you are facetious with me, Nanaki, as in your first comment here. The very definition of hypocritical is treating someone the way you don't want to be treated. And in that respect, I feel I have been consistent here in asking DP to think for himself. That you equate me seeking clarity in a dictionary as an aid in thinking for myself to DP looking at sources in order to determine which others' thinking aids the clarity to the point he seeks is not surprising. I admit to being guilty of thinking for myself and Thanking God for the capacity to so do. DP, if you would stop with the misstatements of my positions, only then to claim those misstated positions as bizarre and incoherent hardly smacks of "educated". Please provide evidence of me ever saying this: "The notion which you have expressed here and elsewhere, such that one could be free to believe one single proposition (that God exists) . . " (other than me just now here quoting your comment of 11/20/2009 at 1:06 P.M. )I obtained my Juris Doctorate over twenty years ago, DP. Which is why I am competent to make the comment I am about to go make on the Miranda discussion post . . . God Bless. |
|
Date: 11/20/2009 6:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 30093
The difference between your facetiousness and my passive aggression is that I'm adorable and funny. |
|
Date: 11/20/2009 8:49:00 PM
From Authorid: 19613
"Free Will: The decision one makes as to whether to believe in God or not, and then once that decision is made in the affirmative..." there you are Deb, from your comment above dated 11/18/2009 6:14:00 PM |
|
Date: 11/21/2009 7:56:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
Uh, DP, that statement does not exclude people deciding in the negative. It merely says that once people have decided in the affirmative to believe in God, then WE go through this other process of determining by our feelings whether what we have done, said, etc., is according to God's Will. I am certainly not insisting you be included in that "WE". Your process of determining why your feelings manifested themselves in you in relation to what you say, do, etc., has no bearing on God, correct? You own your feelings as functioning according to the processing of your own world view, do you not? Nanaki, those may well suit you at your age. At my age, humble and witty are just as attractive . . . God Bless. |
|
Date: 11/21/2009 10:13:00 AM
From Authorid: 19613
Deb, I realise that one may be free to believe or not believe in God, according to you. My objection is that it makes no sense to A: suggest that we can decide what to believe, and B: that a ‘decision’ to believe or not believe in God has some sort of temporal priority to other ‘decisions’. It is possible to lack a belief in something because we have not considered the proposition. I recently read a news story which mentioned President Banda, of Zambia. Up till this point I did not have a positive belief that Rupiah Banda is the President of Zambia. Neither did I have a disbelief in the proposition that Rupiah Banda is the president of Zambia. I simply had not considered it one way or the other. Unless the existence of God is the first proposition a conscious being considers, it seems incoherent and bizarre to suggest that free will does not exist until one considers this proposition. |
Date: 11/21/2009 12:05:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
Perhaps it would help if you put down your thoughts as to what "free will" even means. Because your first comment to this post (it might behoove you to go and read it again really doesn't help in providing clarity to your opposition to my idea on the subject.Wouldn't this theory of yours, "Unless the existence of God is the first proposition a conscious being considers, it seems incoherent and bizarre to suggest that free will does not exist until one considers this proposition," taken with your position as stated on this post with regard to "free will" actually support my idea with regard to "free will"? God Bless. |
|
Date: 11/21/2009 2:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 19613
My assertion that there is no such thing as free will in general is distinct from my claim that your position is incoherent. If free will exists, it makes no sense to think of it in a vacuum, such that one begins by exercising one’s free will in ‘deciding’ to believe whether or not God exists. Some people may live and die without ever considering whether God exists. Does this mean that such people could never have exercised free will at all? |
|
Date: 11/22/2009 10:19:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
To fully understand what free will is, it may be helpful to investigate what free will is not. In this phrase, “will” is a thing, a noun, synonymous with desire. The word “free" describes, or is the adjective, of the noun, desire. One meaning of the word “free” is independent. Thus, that which is dependent would necessarily be not free. This leads to an understanding of what free will is not: Free will is not any type of dependent desire. Desires emanate from feelings. Our feelings occur naturally; in other words they just happen in response to some stimuli. We then are capable of using our minds to decide what to do about the desire. To illustrate, a person experiences a rumbling stomach, feeling hungry. They thus believe they are hungry and thus have a desire to eat. Our mind functions to decide what to eat now and when to eat. The experience is linked to the feeling which is linked to the desire, which is linked to the decision thus constructing a chain of dependency. We live in a world of desires (will) dependent (not free) on these links. We, in the course of being human, are required to respond to these desires. But we do not automatically need to respond to believing or not believing in God in order to survive our earthly life. To comprehend my position then, free will must be a desire independent from requirements. The desire (will) to believe, or not believe, in God does not arise due to experience and is not a naturally occurring feeling inherent in our being. It is an independent decision, the use of our mind, not dependent, or linked, to an experience and/or feeling. All other decisions our minds make are based on experiences and/or feelings. They are not the recognition of an independent desire (free will). Can we live without exercising our free will? Can we live without deciding on an independent desire to believe or not believe in God? I do not believe a conscience (moral) person can do so, even if they are never conscious (aware) that they did. God Bless. |
|
Date: 11/22/2009 7:54:00 PM
From Authorid: 19613
You’ve said “Thus, that which is dependent would necessarily be not free.” Obviously ‘dependent’ needs to be qualified. We may say, for example, that a man released from jail is a ‘free man’, because his liberty is not dependent upon the will of the prison officers, for example. Here you seem to qualify ‘dependent’ as ‘dependent upon experience’. I submit that, unless we are born with an innate idea of God, we arrive at a conception of a God by way of experience. To believe or not believe in God is exactly the same sort of decision as to believe or not believe in unicorns, the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, Thor, Zeus and Ra. |
|
Date: 11/23/2009 9:33:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
And, so, what is your argument if "we ARE born with an innate idea of God" (your words, my emphasis) , but which "we do not automatically need to respond to . . . in order to survive our earthly life" (my words) ? Also, I have not said that experience could not lead to a decision to believe or not believe in God. I said it was not a requirement. God Bless. |
|
Date: 11/23/2009 11:28:00 AM
From Authorid: 19613
I think that would make your position a lot more coherent (if we were born with an innate idea of God). Of course you would then need to provide a convincing argument as to how and to what extent such an innate idea could be shown to exist. But Descartes isn’t very popular these days, so you’d have your work cut out for you. I am less certain that you could have your cake and eat it by making God accesible either by reason or perception. A priori and aposteriori knowledge are generally considered mutually exclusive. |
|
Date: 11/24/2009 4:40:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
Hmmm. Maybe I'll pass off that work to my oldest born who will graduate this coming spring with a Science Degree (neuroscience and microbiology) from one of those university's that those really smart people, like Obama, go. I'll suggest it as a Master's Thesis topic. God Bless. |
|
Date: 11/24/2009 6:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 19613
Congratulations. As it happens, I'm about to finish a masters and am looking at places to do a PhD. What college does your son go to? |
Date: 11/29/2009 2:27:00 AM
From Authorid: 62146
I don't believe in fate, I am believe in free will.  |
Date: 12/16/2009 11:45:00 AM
From Authorid: 52140
I think that everyone is in charge of their own lives, like a little bubble around them. And then life happens and interferes with that bubble. Sometimes we bring life upon ourselves, like getting pregnant or breaking a law and going to jail. Then there are somethings that happen, like natural disasters or other people interfering in our bubble or laws, etc. It sucks. I think that people make their own destiny.  |
Date: 2/24/2010 7:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 177
We come into life with a karmic plan...based upon our group as well as individual karma. Major events may be pretty much planned out in advance, but just as in playing a game. we are free to choose how we are going to play the hand that we are dealt.  |
Renasoft is the proud sponsor of the Unsolved Mystery Publications website.
See: www.rensoft.com Personal Site server, Power to build Personal Web Sites and Personal Web Pages
All stories are copyright protected and may not be reproduced in any form, except by specific written authorization
2508 Category:(Debate) Created:(11/17/2009 8:05:00 PM)