Date: 12/4/2002 4:03:00 PM
From Authorid: 55040
The rebel flag represents the confederacy, and their goals and ideas. They're ideas were white supremecy. If your calling it heritage, then your heritage is white supremecy. Its like claiming to be related to hitler. It shows your support of a bad, and defeted cause. I think its a symbol of hate  |
Date: 12/4/2002 4:07:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 54060
you do have a point the end...i personally think that everyone is just takin the rebel flag way to far.  |
Date: 12/4/2002 4:10:00 PM
From Authorid: 52679
i agree with the end  |
Date: 12/4/2002 4:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 53284
The rebel flag has become a flash point in todays society. Although many people may consider it a proud display of their heritage, many more consider it a symbol of the southern aristocracy that kept people as slaves. So when you display the flag you will be guarenteed to offend many. So, when a symbol is no longer recognizied for the intended purpose, it's time to get a new symbol. If someone is proud of their Southern heritage, that's great, just find some way to show it without offending others.  |
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Date: 12/4/2002 4:36:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 54060
thanks for ur coment Dark Fire and Wild Bob....N I really dont mean to offend nebody...thanks for bringing that up wild bob...just was a wondering what everyone thought about it. |
Date: 12/4/2002 4:53:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
It is obvious that the schools have gotten away from teaching truth, and that many do not know the facts behind the Cofederate Battle Flag, and the fight that was the Civil War. During the Civil War, there were 5 flags that flew over the Confederacy, The Bonnie Blue, The Stars and Bars, the Stainless Banner, The Blood Stained Banner, and The Confederate Battle Flag, which was a larger version of the Naval Jack. The Civil War was not about white supremecy, but was about State's Rights, something that was guaranteed to all states by our Constitution, when it was penned. Prior to the Civil War, the North was was the industrial base of the nation, with the South supplying the neccesities for industry. There was a general consensus that slavery should end both in the north and south. Lincoln however, wanted to end it immediately, rather than allowing it to end over a period of time that would allow southern plantation holders to adapt to the changes, a move which would have ruined the supply base for northern industry. Many in the north did not agree with Lincoln's stance on slavery, since it would do away with the state's right to decide what was best for it's people. Prior to the shelling of Fort Sumter, which many claim to be the start of the Civil War, the states which would become the Confederacy, seceded based on their right in the Constitution to do so. They also exercised their right to take control of numerous armories in the secession states. Lincoln, not wanting to be known as the President that allowed the country to split, quickly moved forces into Maryland, where a vote was being prepared that would allow that state to secede from the Union. Lincoln knew that if Maryland seceded, it would leave Washington cut off from teh rest of the Union, so he sent in troops and had the legislature of that state held under military arrest. He also placed the state under martial law. That was two more violations of the Constitution against Lincoln. A message was sent to the Union Army, stating they would allow the troops at Fort Sumter to leave the fort, and repatriate with the north, if they so desired. The south did not want war, but wanted a peaceful secession, and the right to govern themselves. The Union was warned that if they attempted to reinforce Fort Sumter, that it would be shelled. Rather than surrender the fort, which the fort commander had planned on doing, Lincoln sent a lightly armed naval vessel into Charleston harbor, with orders to resupply the fort. Having given warning, Confederate batteries in the area began sheeling Fort Sumter. Lincoln declared it an act of war, although the South had made it's position perfectly clear. Thus began the war over state's rights, or as we have come to know it, The American Civil War. Unknown to many, Lincon also called for field promotions of various officers of junior rank in the western fronteir states, that would make them senior to officers already in control of armories in those areas. These promtoed officers were then ordered to take control of the armories, and place the areas around them under martial law. One of the states where this happened was Missouri, where there was indecision on whether to fall in line with the Union or the Confederacy. Lincoln's actions caused many to vote that Missouri support the Confederacy. As for the flag, the Battle Flag was adopted after much confusion in battle during the early stages of the war. The eventual decison to use the Battle Flag was decided on because it stood out when compared to the Union flag. There would be no confusion on the field of battle. It's design came from the field of the Stars and Bars, which as I stated earlier, was also the Naval Ensign. That one flag flew over the Confederacy for a longer time than any other flag. It's continued use after the war was not for hate, but because it was the most recognized flag of that time. Yes, some groups have used the flag to help promote their hatred, but it is a blasphemy to those who served under it, including numerous of my ancestors, some of who were wounded while fighting under that flag. My ancestors who fought for the South were not slave holders. They were farmers, or worked in the few mills they had back then, or worked for the railroad. They fought because they believed in what the Constitution said, and they believed a state should have the right to pass and enforce laws that were in the best interest of the people of those states. Before people try to declare the Battle Flag a symbol of hatred, they need to do an in depth study of history, and learn the whole truth behind that dark time in our country's history. I have spent years studying it, and have traversed many of the battlefields, including those where I know my ancestors fought. Is it heritage or hatred? For me, it is my heritage.  |
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Date: 12/4/2002 5:02:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
As an added note, three weeks ago I was working in Slema, Alabama, what many believe the home fo teh Civil Rights Movement. On my way home, I saw three men, in Confederate uniforms, walking down the street. One was carrying the Bonnie Blue, one teh Stainless Bannerm and the third carried the Battle Flag. Now many in that city may have thought they were trying to cause unrest. The irony was that the man carrying the Battle Flag was BLACK! Here was one man that in his aged wisdom, had looked past the hatred and bigotry that some had tried to lay on that flag, and knew the truth about it's heritage. |
Date: 12/4/2002 5:02:00 PM
From Authorid: 2030
I think it's heritage for those who truely believe that. But for many it is simply an in-your-face. But all in all it's just a flag and it doesn't bother me one way or the other. I will say that for black people and liberals looking for a cause. If the confederate flag is the most important thing left on your agenda - You're in pretty darn good shape.  |
Date: 12/4/2002 5:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 58022
Warrior Spirit said it well. Very well. The Civil War started as a war for the rights of the people of the south-not slavery. The south was had a totally different culture than the north, and the flags they had represented that. Unfortunally, the stars and stripes became recongized as a bad image when the KKK started using it. As a note to Gingie: I like this post a lot. I know posts of this nature get deleted a whole lot (I've seen many of them get deleted), so it's nice to see one that can stay up.  |
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Date: 12/4/2002 5:17:00 PM
From Authorid: 53284
Thanks for the informative post WarriorSpirit. The one question that comes to mind when I read your post is, How were the slaves benifiting from this states rights issue. You said that Lincoln was doing away with state's right to decide what was best for it's people. Were the slaves considered people, or chattle? How were the Southern states representing the rights of the slaves and how would the slaves have benifited by continuing slavery for some unknow period of time? |
Date: 12/4/2002 5:31:00 PM
From Authorid: 53900
Tahnk you for asking that WildBob I was thinking the same thing myself. I think if the flag is looked upon as a symbol of hate then it is time it is gotten rid of. We are after all the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!!!! There is no more north/south or at least time I looked we were one country.  |
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Date: 12/4/2002 5:31:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
Wild Bob, prior to Jefferson Davis taking the oath of office, the South had already signed a Confederate Constituion that would not allow any further importing of slaves. It should be noted that most all the slavers, that is, those who brought slaves into this country and sold them, were Northerners, primarily from the Boston area. At the outbreak of seccession, some slave holders had already begun freeing their slaves, and had share cropper agreements with them. It was felt by the first Cofederate Legistlature that over a period of time, all slaves should be freed, but it should be done in a manner to where plantaion owbers would be compensated for the loss of their slaves. I know of one old plantation in Georgia where the slaves were freed at the onset of hostilties. An agrrement was made with those former slaves that if they would continue to work the plantation, they would in return recieve land on which to build their homes. Today, a small community flourishes on the very ground where many of those former slaves did agree to continue to work the land. Many of the descendents of those slaves work today with and for descendents of the former slave holder. One must understand, although we today see slavery as a bad thing, at that time, it was commonplace in many parts of the world. Even the Bible speaks of slavery, and does not condemn it. The South has long been considered the Bible Belt, so those who held slaves did not feel as if they were doing wrong. Also, while people have heard stories of slaves being severly beaten or being underfed, those stories are far from teh church on general. Slaves were considered a commodity, and with the price that was paid for them they were oft times treated extremely well, considering. Actually, former slaves that went north after the war were often treated worse that they were when they were slaves. |
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Date: 12/4/2002 5:39:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
Hugo, all BS aside, read the history books. I have two of the best books written on the subject in my library. One is an indepth look at all aspects of the war, and the other is a detailed analsys of the major battles fought. Jessica, there is no more north or south. That is true. There is also no such thing as an African-American. One is either Afircan, or American, not both. I have walked the fields of battle from the Shenandoah Valley, all the way to Mobile Bay. I did it because it was a part of my family's history. By choice, I display the Stainless Banner, because it was the flag one of my ancestors first fought under. I do not have any problem with someone else displaying the Battle Flag though, as long as they are doing it as part of their heritage, and not to show hate. When I see it being flown as a hate symbol, then I am vocal not against the flag, but against those that fly it in such a way. |
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Date: 12/4/2002 5:48:00 PM
From Authorid: 53900
Well i live in Florida and not a block away a person flies the rebel flag above teh United States flag. I know that is not teh correct method of flying the flags and I also know where I live about 80% of those who fly the flag do it as a symbol of white supremecy and of hatred. |
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Date: 12/4/2002 5:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
I live in Alabama, the birthplace of the Confederacy. Here, many of us who do fly the flag do so as a symbol of our heritage. There are those though who would attempt to get laws passed that would make it illegal to do so. In schools, kids are not allowed to wear the flag on a shirt, even on Confederate Memorial Day. Yet other kids can wear symbols of their heritage and nothing gets said. I'm not one who believes in political correctness. I call them like I see them, and am proud of my heritage, both Indian and non-Indian. |
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Date: 12/4/2002 6:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 53900
Well truthfully the flag was a symbol of the south like you said it is the most recognizable that is why it is not supported by many. The other flags many have not heard of and therefore they probably do not know about tehm but I am sure if they did they would object to those also If someone were to be flying a flag with a swastika on it would you find that offensive? I know I would. I find the flag offensive not because of it's origin but because of it's use as a symbol of hatred and bigotry in society today |
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Date: 12/4/2002 6:08:00 PM
From Authorid: 53900
And for many there is no way to seperate the hate from the heritage. |
Date: 12/4/2002 6:48:00 PM
From Authorid: 7654
So many people don't know all the facts of the "Rebel Flag". First let me say that our old flag flew for "PRIDE"!Something else that others don't know or remember is that blacks fought in the Confederacy too.And many in the South stand tall and speak up for our flag today.  |
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Date: 12/4/2002 6:55:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
Jessica, at one time, I had a Kreigsmarine flag with the Iron Cross on it. Many thought it was a Nazi flag, and thus a symbol of hatred and bigotry. It was the Naval Ensign for the German Navy, and I traded it for several cartoons of American cigarettes. I would not, and do not condone the swastika, nor the things it stood for then, or stand for now. As well as having studied the Civil War, I have also studied WWII, including the many units that made up the German Army and Navy. I am a history buff by nature, and military history buff by choice. There is much to be learned from war and it's aftermath if people will take the time to learn the truth about why they happened, what started them, and what it takes to keep the same mistakes from happening again. |
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Date: 12/4/2002 7:19:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 54060
thank you warrior spirt...u cleared up alot of stuff for me that will be very usful n my editorial....i 2 also think its just a symbol of heritage many ppl just try to cause a big comotion over it when its just a flag that many ppl think they hate all blacks when its just a minor symbol of their heritage...n thank you everyone for u comments!!!...i really like the discussion that is being said. |
Date: 12/4/2002 7:41:00 PM
From Authorid: 51635
All that and a history lesson too, WOW.... I've seen the "Stars and Bars" used both ways...I don't think that people should make such a big deal out of other people wanting to fly a flag that stands for what their great (great) grandfathers died for or got wounded for...this IS America, a land where we let all kinds of people fly all kinds of flags with out trying to put a lable on their reasons for flying them, so if we're not going to make a big deal about them then we sertainly shouldn't make a big deal about the decendants of people that should be considered veterans flying the "Stars and Bars" ...  |
Date: 12/5/2002 6:51:00 AM
From Authorid: 59163
well, im a son of the union and a son of the confederacy, dues paid and all. so its part of my heritage. and i dont think its a symbol of hatred, but i also dont really considerate heritage either. if anything people are lucky they are aloud to so openly fly the flag. how many other countries allow their rebel factions that privilage, even after they have been defeated. i think its silly to look at something and say "this is hatred" or say its evil, but i do judge in a different way. whenever i see a rebel flag proudly displayed on the back of a pickup truck i think to myself, hillbilly. *dagon*  |
Date: 12/5/2002 7:12:00 AM
From Authorid: 61790
It's hate AND heritage. As The End put it "Its like claiming to be related to hitler" but the truth about it is that THEY ARE related to those who did the crimes and such-as are many people. You can't hide your ancestory, it's there whether you admit it or not-and in the same way the flag is the ancestory of our country-and therefore shouldn't be ignored/hidden.  |
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Date: 12/5/2002 8:11:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 54060
thank you everyone for ur comments!!...im also starting to think that the flag is hatred and heritage...but really i think its just in the eyes of the beholder. |
Date: 12/5/2002 9:26:00 AM
From Authorid: 8090
Heritage...it could mean hate for some, like the KKK who are also from the south. A flag with the true meaning of ignorance and hate would be the Nazi flag....  |
Date: 12/5/2002 9:39:00 AM
From Authorid: 51173
Warrior Spirit, If I were to write anything I would just be echoing what you have already wrote. Very well put, my friend. Peace, Tom  |
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Date: 12/5/2002 11:10:00 AM
From Authorid: 53284
I still don't totally agree with the facts that you have presented. Importing slaves into the US was made 1808. The practice continued by importing slaves to Cuba, falsifying their papers to make it look as though they were born in Cuba then bring them to the US. The Southern Aristrocracy would suffer finiancially from the ending of slavery. Slaves were valuable and not readily affordable by those who were not in the Aristrocracy. The South had over fifty years in which to end slavery and the practice continued. Although there are some states rights issues involved in the Civil War the question that begs to be asked is "Would their have been a war if the South had givin up the practice of slavery?" |
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Date: 12/5/2002 11:13:00 AM
From Authorid: 59163
yea, i think there still would have been a war. the war didn't start over slavery anyways. it was more about taxation and trade rights. and the northeast was really screwing the south in many way. lincoln was against slavery yes, but he knew he couldnt abolish it easily. until the civil war happened, and he could do it to harm the southern economy. i mean think about it, he didnt abolish slavery until half way through the war. if the war was about slavery, he would have abolished it right off which would have brought upon the war. *dagon* |
Date: 12/5/2002 11:30:00 AM
From Authorid: 25828
well, i'm in the south...and there are other ways to show you're proud of your southern heritage..what about the state flag? isn't that good enough? to me, when you use the old flag..the rebel flag, it's saying i'm proud of this time in history, i'm proud i'm from the south that believed what it believed at the time of this flag --which was all racist. so to fly the current state flag is saying i'm proud to be from the south, to fly the old rebel flag is saying i'm proud of the mindset the south had back then..IMO.  |
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Date: 12/5/2002 11:33:00 AM
From Authorid: 25828
the civil war was not really fought over slavery bob, it was over a lady --but that is an eclectic tidbit most don't know ---but it was indeed the affections of a lady(or seekings of..) that began the civil war. |
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Date: 12/5/2002 2:00:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 54060
wow..ive learned so much from this post |
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Date: 12/5/2002 2:21:00 PM
From Authorid: 53284
There always seems to be a woman involved Heather.. |
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Date: 12/5/2002 2:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 53284
I know that the way didn't start over slavery. Just once it began, what better time to right a long standing wrong. It also makes it harder to leave the plantation to go and fight the yankees when you have the possibility of your slaves all joining the Union side while your gone. None the less, it was something that needed to be done. |
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Date: 12/6/2002 3:45:00 AM
From Authorid: 59163
i'm going to blame all the worlds problems on women now. i bet the only reason osama is mad at us is not because of our troop placement and our capitalism. i bet he was a nerd in high school and all the girls turned him down for the prom. *dagon* |
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Date: 12/6/2002 9:42:00 AM
From Authorid: 53284
There is a rumor that osama got upset when an American woman laughed at the small size of his manley assets. |
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Date: 12/6/2002 10:02:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 54060
lol...wild bob!!...i dont even wanna imagin that about osma!..n that woman was probably his MAMMA!!..osma his mamma..lol hehe im just playin |
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Date: 12/6/2002 10:15:00 AM
From Authorid: 53900
LMAO @ wildbob |
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Date: 12/6/2002 10:29:00 AM
From Authorid: 25828
LOL@ wildbob 8-) |
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Date: 12/6/2002 5:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 37354
Warrior Spirit, why did you address me here when I had not commented on this post? Hugo |
